I think he means Celebi can absorb any hit and OHKO you, idk if it can absorb any hit, but I assume he meant that
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- Thread starter Level 51
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SpartanMalice
Y'all jokers must be crazy
Celebi can't absorb +2 Ice Beam, I think. Not sure.
AWailOfATail
viva la darmz
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Celebi: 421-497 (104.2 - 123.01%) -- guaranteed OHKO
With a Calm nature, Celebi has a 68.75% chance to survive.
I'm looking at the Moxiemons. They're just gonna wreck.
EDIT: Vaporeon has a 68.75% chance to OHKO. So Celebi has a 31.25% chance to survive.
I'm looking at the Moxiemons. They're just gonna wreck.
EDIT: Vaporeon has a 68.75% chance to OHKO. So Celebi has a 31.25% chance to survive.
canno
formerly The Reptile
All these coverage moves are great, but personally I think Hurricane is better than Tbolt / Ice Beam / GK. Calcin' time!
+2 252+ SpA Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 372-438 (92.07 - 108.41%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 242-286 (59.9 - 70.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 484-569 (119.8 - 140.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Gastrodon: 294-346 (69.01 - 81.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 272-320 (63.84 - 75.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Vaporeon: 210-247 (52.23 - 61.44%) -- 96.88% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 361-426 (111.76 - 131.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ludicolo: 333-393 (110.26 - 130.13%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 346-408 (118.49 - 139.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 471-556 (127.98 - 151.08%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 941-1110 (255.7 - 301.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 316-372 (78.41 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 237-279 (58.66 - 69.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 317-374 (82.55 - 97.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon in rain: 88-104 (21.89 - 25.87%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 118-139 (29.35 - 34.57%) -- possible 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 252-297 (62.68 - 73.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hurricane hits the hardest against Celebi while clean 2HKOing Gasro. Also does a ton to Jelli and destroys Toxicroak. Note that Hurricane works best with Hydro Pump over Surf. Here's an example of why
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 244-289 (69.31 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Surf vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 218-257 (61.93 - 73.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 276-324 (78.4 - 92.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hydro outdamages Hurricane unless its SE in the rain. This applies to everything.
also, for you, Malice
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 382-452 (94.55 - 111.88%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 294-348 (72.77 - 86.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 372-438 (92.07 - 108.41%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 242-286 (59.9 - 70.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 484-569 (119.8 - 140.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Gastrodon: 294-346 (69.01 - 81.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 272-320 (63.84 - 75.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Vaporeon: 210-247 (52.23 - 61.44%) -- 96.88% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 361-426 (111.76 - 131.88%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Ludicolo: 333-393 (110.26 - 130.13%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 346-408 (118.49 - 139.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 471-556 (127.98 - 151.08%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Toxicroak: 941-1110 (255.7 - 301.63%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Jellicent: 316-372 (78.41 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 237-279 (58.66 - 69.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 317-374 (82.55 - 97.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon in rain: 88-104 (21.89 - 25.87%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 118-139 (29.35 - 34.57%) -- possible 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Jellicent Shadow Ball vs. -1 4 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 252-297 (62.68 - 73.88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hurricane hits the hardest against Celebi while clean 2HKOing Gasro. Also does a ton to Jelli and destroys Toxicroak. Note that Hurricane works best with Hydro Pump over Surf. Here's an example of why
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn: 244-289 (69.31 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Surf vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 218-257 (61.93 - 73.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 276-324 (78.4 - 92.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hydro outdamages Hurricane unless its SE in the rain. This applies to everything.
also, for you, Malice
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 382-452 (94.55 - 111.88%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Vaporeon Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 294-348 (72.77 - 86.13%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Holy fuck that's awesome, thank you based DreMZ, didn't know it even got hurricane
OiAwesome suggested a set consisting of Shell Smash/Surf/Grass Knot/Rest with Splash Plate. This means that in this scenario the best option to hit Celebi with is Surf.
Celebi can tank a +2 Surf in the rain and OHKO right back with Seed Flare, that was my point. I never said that implied you to smash on the Celebi =/, no idea where you read that. You provided a calc on Celebi so I thought it was ok to give it as an example. But like I said, with the defense drops Vaporeon is OHKOed by quite a bit of things you cannot OHKO.
Morale of the story: I dont think Grass Knot is a great coverage option for Vaporeon on that set.
Celebi can tank a +2 Surf in the rain and OHKO right back with Seed Flare, that was my point. I never said that implied you to smash on the Celebi =/, no idea where you read that. You provided a calc on Celebi so I thought it was ok to give it as an example. But like I said, with the defense drops Vaporeon is OHKOed by quite a bit of things you cannot OHKO.
Morale of the story: I dont think Grass Knot is a great coverage option for Vaporeon on that set.
SpartanMalice
Y'all jokers must be crazy
Also don't forget that instead of Smash, (Vap's low speed means it will be outsped by Scarf Keldeo at +2 and such which is common), Vaporeon can always turn Tail Glow in Trick Room with a bulky attacking spread, turning some of those calcs to clean OHKOs. Yeah I know, I've been talking a lot of trick room lately but that's cause there's a lot of potential out there.
But well, setting up Trick Room, then switching and setting up takes already 3 turns, so you got 2 left to sweep if you could call it that way
SpartanMalice
Y'all jokers must be crazy
I guess. Or you could just run a bulky Tail Glow set and avoid trick room, I'm used to doing it with empoleon and his nasty plot but I guess his typing offers for better setup opportunities.
Vaporeon gets Trick Room from Hydration Smoochum.
SpartanMalice
Y'all jokers must be crazy
Not really. Vaporeon has less overall physical bulk than manaphy though not too less if invested in Def, but that's about it. About the same, except slower.
What do you want to replace, you either replace Rest, so no Recovery, Setup, so quite weak, or the coverage, which means it's coverage gets quite bad
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
110 spa certainly isn't weak, but it does lose it's appeal for bulky stall wrecker tho
Trick Room Vaporeon does mean it can invest in bulk along with Special Attack. Trick Room / Tail Glow / Surf or Hydro Pump / Coverage Move is probably the way to go. Sounds like a good lategame sweeper, a bit like Nasty Plot Cofagrigus. Hurricane or Ice Beam is probably what you'd want to use for coverage.
Using Trick Room along with Rest seems a bit farfetched to me.
Using Trick Room along with Rest seems a bit farfetched to me.
SpartanMalice
Y'all jokers must be crazy
If you run it in rain, or just wanna risk it outside of weather, Hurricane can be used on that coverage slot. Then, it becomes a special variant of Gyara, who has pretty decent coverage with just his STABs. I know Hurricane isnt stab, but we're talking coverage and it's probably the best coverage. Plus, based on DreMZ's calcs at +2, it should be able to hit harder at +3.
Quiver Dance on Flame Body Chandelure sounds pretty terrifying...
Guts seems like it can provide some interesting results; Swellow gets Drain Punch / Close Combat / Earthquake from Conkeldurr and Machamp, and Conkeldurr himself gets Brave Bird.
Oh, and dibs on Gluttony Snorlax. It gets Belly Drum and Extremespeed thanks to Linoone. :P
Guts seems like it can provide some interesting results; Swellow gets Drain Punch / Close Combat / Earthquake from Conkeldurr and Machamp, and Conkeldurr himself gets Brave Bird.
Oh, and dibs on Gluttony Snorlax. It gets Belly Drum and Extremespeed thanks to Linoone. :P
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SpartanMalice
Y'all jokers must be crazy
We've tried QD chandy before, believe me it's not as good as it looks. Despite the SR weakness Volc actually has a better defensive typing as Rock moves miss most of the time.
That's not very great reasoning really. Like, staying in to set up with volcarona just because you're relying on a miss with stone edge (even harder to achieve with rock slide) is just not a good strategy and isn't indicative in any way of a better defensive typing than Chandelure.
Well I still maintain that, unless the opponent has a fast scarfer / setup sweeper already in, QD Chandelure will be a threat. Besides, Volcarona has already been established to be a good defensive Pokemon even in standard OU, but what does that matter when the idea with QD chandelure is to be a deadly sweeper capable of OHKOing Pokemon after Pokemon?
Quite frankly though Gluttony Snorlax terrifies me the most of what I've noticed so far, with that Belly Drum / XSpeed combo and access to great coverage in Crunch and Earthquake / Brick Break. Gluttony also is useful on the set - for either a healing berry to preserve Lax's good bulk, or to use a coverage move in conjunction with Custap Berry to outspeed the predicted XSpeed-resist switch-in and hit them with the coverage move of choice, before sweeping the rest of the team with XSpeed.
Compoundeyes Galvantula gets Sleep Powder and Stun Spore (thanks to Butterfree) and thus can go with a deadly-accurate double-powder set along with its powerful STAB Thunder and Bug Buzz, or forgo stun spore for a coverage move. Oh yeah, and it also gets Quiver Dance.
One of my favourites that I've seen is Tinted Lens Yanmega, who thanks to Venomoth now gets Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance to use in conjunction with its fantastic ability, good stats and great dual STABs. In just two moves it has perfect coverage, and a combination of Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance means it can shut down the switch-in and boost until almost nothing can wall it. Even Blissey would have trouble with this, and remember that both Magic Bouncers are at least 2HKOed by a +1 Bug Buzz.
Prankster Sableye gets Leech Seed from Whimsicott - say goodbye to any and all possibility of full stall being viable :P Oh, and it also nabbed Tail Glow and Baton Pass from Volbeat, so go ahead and use that combo on this far superior Pokemon.
Quite frankly though Gluttony Snorlax terrifies me the most of what I've noticed so far, with that Belly Drum / XSpeed combo and access to great coverage in Crunch and Earthquake / Brick Break. Gluttony also is useful on the set - for either a healing berry to preserve Lax's good bulk, or to use a coverage move in conjunction with Custap Berry to outspeed the predicted XSpeed-resist switch-in and hit them with the coverage move of choice, before sweeping the rest of the team with XSpeed.
Compoundeyes Galvantula gets Sleep Powder and Stun Spore (thanks to Butterfree) and thus can go with a deadly-accurate double-powder set along with its powerful STAB Thunder and Bug Buzz, or forgo stun spore for a coverage move. Oh yeah, and it also gets Quiver Dance.
One of my favourites that I've seen is Tinted Lens Yanmega, who thanks to Venomoth now gets Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance to use in conjunction with its fantastic ability, good stats and great dual STABs. In just two moves it has perfect coverage, and a combination of Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance means it can shut down the switch-in and boost until almost nothing can wall it. Even Blissey would have trouble with this, and remember that both Magic Bouncers are at least 2HKOed by a +1 Bug Buzz.
Prankster Sableye gets Leech Seed from Whimsicott - say goodbye to any and all possibility of full stall being viable :P Oh, and it also nabbed Tail Glow and Baton Pass from Volbeat, so go ahead and use that combo on this far superior Pokemon.
SpartanMalice
Y'all jokers must be crazy
Audiosurfer, it's more the fact that chandy is weak to additional stuff like pursuit and EQ as well that hurts it imo, but generally SS is better on it IMO, as it isn't revenge killed often.
I've mentioned QuiverPowder tula before, not sure if here on a server but haven't used it yet. It seems like it has potential, but just Thunder/BugBuzz as coverage, dunno how much that will hit.
I've mentioned QuiverPowder tula before, not sure if here on a server but haven't used it yet. It seems like it has potential, but just Thunder/BugBuzz as coverage, dunno how much that will hit.
Not many Pokemon resist that combo, and even fewer can safely switch in on a +1 Tula with those STABS after SR or Spikes damage. Even the majority of Pokemon that DO resist both can generally not switch in safely for fear of either a 2HKO (in which case they can only revenge kill) or Sleep Powder, or paralysis via Thunder (e.g. bulky Dragonite).
For example, standard T-tar (in sand) is always OHKOed by a +1 LO Bug Buzz after SR + 1 layer of Spikes (and can never take two, ever, and is slower even with a Scarf); Dragonite is pretty much ruined by paralysis (and can't take boosted Thunders without significant investment); Blissey and Chansey are setup bait if Sleep Clause isn't active; physically-bulky / mixed-bulk Ferro is 2HKOed by +1 Bug Buzz; Magnezone resists both STABs but can't do much back and is basically setup bait without Specs HP Fire; Gliscor and Lando-T have mediocre special bulk so they are hit hard with a boosted Bug Buzz (especially when Roosting), or can be easily OHKOed if Tula runs HP Ice (its most common coverage move in standard).
Pretty much the only reliable switch-in is specially-bulky Ninetales, which ruins Thunder's accuracy while resisting Bug Buzz - and even that doesn't like Sleep Powder, and can be stopped easily by almost anything with Rain Dance (or Poli if it is still at good health). Specially-bulky Gliscor / Lando-T can be used but HP Ice is common on Galvantula as vital coverage so they are very risky, unless you know Tula's full moveset.
Wow, this thread has been dead for months... Well, anyway, all I'd like to say is that when Flame Body gets released on Heatran, it will destroy everything with Quiver Dance (Volcarona)
EV
Banned deucer.
Hm, I'm not sure if Tentacruel needs Zap Cannon or Chandelure needs Thunder, especially since the two have such low accuracy. I'd be more inclined to bridge Water Spout from Blastoise to Tentacruel and spam that with a Choice Item in the rain. It has 100 base Speed, so a Scarf might be in order.