About Clear Body and White Smoke VS Defiant. Defiant IMO is better then them, and should be in B Tier because free double attack on a random defensive drop from Crunch or something, or +1 on and Intimidate can be very very useful and game changing if the pokemon has the right stats, move pool ect to pull it off well. Now Clear Body and White Smoke are just a weaker version to a physical sweeper but better for anything else. But I do think they are barely B tier worthy because well it allows tanks to stat through Crunches and other such move without worry about hax in the form of a defense drop. Not to mention if said wall is something like Hippo, then the blocking of Intimidate will still help it. Basically one is for anyone, the other is a better version for Sweepers only, and then only Physical Sweepers. I'll bring up the Defiant issue again later, but yeah that is how I feel about the other two.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Ability Tiering Thread and General Ability Discussion (Final Check)
- Thread starter forestflamerunner
- Start date
@Jimera
I don't really get what you are telling about Harvest. Without Sun up, Harvest activates 50% of the time, which is just fine, as i already mentioned. You don't have to use a Harvest poke in sunlight at all... You could, just to be sure, but it is perfectly viable outside of that, as Exxegutor has proved.
Finally you have a point about Marvel Scale, but i just think we have different definitions of a Tier A ability. You say that for an ability to be Tier A, it has to make the poke significantly better, while i think that it has to be make the poke simply better, in general, while of 'course being better than Tier B abilities, which is what Marvel Scale does.
@Scarfwynaut
No Guard, Compound eyes and Victory Star are similar, but not really identical, and No Guard is clearly the best. Let's see some moves, and the accuracy they get with every one of those abilities (i am listing only moves that have wide enough distribution):
- DynamicPunch and Inferno always hit with NG, have 65% accuracy with CE, and have 55% accuracy with VS
- Sing and GrassWhistle always hit with NG, have 71,5% accuracy with CE, and have 60,5% accuracy with VS
- Hypnosis always hits with NG, has 78% accuracy with CE, and has 66% accuracy with VS
- Thunder, Focus Blast, Hurricane and Blizzard always hit with NG, have 91% accuracy with CE, and have 77% accuracy with VS
- WoW, Sleep Powder and Stun Spore always hit with NG, have 97,% accuracy with CE, and have 82,5% accuracy with VS
- Hydro Pump and Stone Edge always hit with NG, have 104% accuracy with CE, and have 88% accuracy with VS
- Fire Blast and Megahorn always hit with NG, have 110,5% accuracy with CE, and have 93,5% accuracy with VS
Any move with 90% accuracy or more will practically always hit with all 3 abilities, so i won't list those moves.
So what we can see is that there is quite a difference between NG, CE and VS. NG makes viable moves such as Dynamicpunch, Inferno, Hypnosis, Sing and GrassWhistle, were VS does shit, and CE makes them viable too, but they still have very disapointing accuracy.
Any move with 70% accuracy becomes viable with NG, and also becomes viable by CE,which boosts the accuracy to 91%, which is almost perfect, but could still cost you a few games. VS brings those moves to an accuracy level (77%) where they are just barely acceptable in terms of viability standards (i think that almost anyone wouldn't use a move that has lower accuracy than 75%, if he had a choice).
Any move with 75% accuracy or more is practically fully accurate with CE, while with VS, most moves get pumped up to quite acceptable levels.
Now let's see how these abilities are similar or not, by using some real examples. Let's take Torandus which commonly uses Hurricane and Focus Blast. No Guard would be the best ability of 'course but what about the other 2? Would they be way worse, or almost as good? Well CE would be almost as good, giving to those 2 moves 91% acc., so in practice you would rarely feel the difference. But VS would bring those 2 moves to 77% accuracy, which is downright horrible, as almost no poke would want his only STAB move AND his basic coverage move to have such sucky accuracy.
Another example that is the same as the above is Kyurem, which uses Blizzard and Focus Blast.
Anyway we can see that most pokes would be just ok with No Guard and CE (of 'course NG would be the best ability, but CE wouldn't be too far behind), but not with VS. And this is why the first 2 abilities deserve the A Tier status (NG and CE), while the third doesn't (VS).
I don't really get what you are telling about Harvest. Without Sun up, Harvest activates 50% of the time, which is just fine, as i already mentioned. You don't have to use a Harvest poke in sunlight at all... You could, just to be sure, but it is perfectly viable outside of that, as Exxegutor has proved.
Finally you have a point about Marvel Scale, but i just think we have different definitions of a Tier A ability. You say that for an ability to be Tier A, it has to make the poke significantly better, while i think that it has to be make the poke simply better, in general, while of 'course being better than Tier B abilities, which is what Marvel Scale does.
@Scarfwynaut
No Guard, Compound eyes and Victory Star are similar, but not really identical, and No Guard is clearly the best. Let's see some moves, and the accuracy they get with every one of those abilities (i am listing only moves that have wide enough distribution):
- DynamicPunch and Inferno always hit with NG, have 65% accuracy with CE, and have 55% accuracy with VS
- Sing and GrassWhistle always hit with NG, have 71,5% accuracy with CE, and have 60,5% accuracy with VS
- Hypnosis always hits with NG, has 78% accuracy with CE, and has 66% accuracy with VS
- Thunder, Focus Blast, Hurricane and Blizzard always hit with NG, have 91% accuracy with CE, and have 77% accuracy with VS
- WoW, Sleep Powder and Stun Spore always hit with NG, have 97,% accuracy with CE, and have 82,5% accuracy with VS
- Hydro Pump and Stone Edge always hit with NG, have 104% accuracy with CE, and have 88% accuracy with VS
- Fire Blast and Megahorn always hit with NG, have 110,5% accuracy with CE, and have 93,5% accuracy with VS
Any move with 90% accuracy or more will practically always hit with all 3 abilities, so i won't list those moves.
So what we can see is that there is quite a difference between NG, CE and VS. NG makes viable moves such as Dynamicpunch, Inferno, Hypnosis, Sing and GrassWhistle, were VS does shit, and CE makes them viable too, but they still have very disapointing accuracy.
Any move with 70% accuracy becomes viable with NG, and also becomes viable by CE,which boosts the accuracy to 91%, which is almost perfect, but could still cost you a few games. VS brings those moves to an accuracy level (77%) where they are just barely acceptable in terms of viability standards (i think that almost anyone wouldn't use a move that has lower accuracy than 75%, if he had a choice).
Any move with 75% accuracy or more is practically fully accurate with CE, while with VS, most moves get pumped up to quite acceptable levels.
Now let's see how these abilities are similar or not, by using some real examples. Let's take Torandus which commonly uses Hurricane and Focus Blast. No Guard would be the best ability of 'course but what about the other 2? Would they be way worse, or almost as good? Well CE would be almost as good, giving to those 2 moves 91% acc., so in practice you would rarely feel the difference. But VS would bring those 2 moves to 77% accuracy, which is downright horrible, as almost no poke would want his only STAB move AND his basic coverage move to have such sucky accuracy.
Another example that is the same as the above is Kyurem, which uses Blizzard and Focus Blast.
Anyway we can see that most pokes would be just ok with No Guard and CE (of 'course NG would be the best ability, but CE wouldn't be too far behind), but not with VS. And this is why the first 2 abilities deserve the A Tier status (NG and CE), while the third doesn't (VS).
Comments in bold
@Alexwolf
WHOOPS, for some reason I thought Harvest ONLY activated in sunlight. Apparently I was misinformed. In that case, you can safely ignore the sunlight argument I made last time.
As for the definition, I'm pretty sure that we've been opperating on the assumption of significant, game changing benefit for A-tier this whole time, because otherwise we'd be arguing that Rough Skin, iron barbs, White Smoke and others all deserve to A-tier as well, seeing as they improve a Pokemon without downsides. Magnitude clearly needs to play a larger factor than net benefit or we end up with odd cases like Victory Star being A-tier while No Guard is B-tier, seeing as one has downsides and the other doesn't. If you argue that Marvel Scale has a large enough impact to be A-tier then that's cool, but if you're just saying that because it grants a net benefit it should be A-tier then it makes no sense alongside the placings we have made of many other abilities.
Overall I really have not understood your reasoning for most of your arguments throughout the thread. I'm sorry but I just don't get why you seem to feel the need to group together abilities that we're supposed to be looking at individually. Each ability either makes it or doesn't based on their own merits, not the merits of the abilities they're similar to.
@Alexwolf
WHOOPS, for some reason I thought Harvest ONLY activated in sunlight. Apparently I was misinformed. In that case, you can safely ignore the sunlight argument I made last time.
As for the definition, I'm pretty sure that we've been opperating on the assumption of significant, game changing benefit for A-tier this whole time, because otherwise we'd be arguing that Rough Skin, iron barbs, White Smoke and others all deserve to A-tier as well, seeing as they improve a Pokemon without downsides. Magnitude clearly needs to play a larger factor than net benefit or we end up with odd cases like Victory Star being A-tier while No Guard is B-tier, seeing as one has downsides and the other doesn't. If you argue that Marvel Scale has a large enough impact to be A-tier then that's cool, but if you're just saying that because it grants a net benefit it should be A-tier then it makes no sense alongside the placings we have made of many other abilities.
Yeah ok Alexwolf I see your point about victory star, your total accuracy view on all 3 really cleared that up for me.
Also Jamero defiant is currently C tier, which is what was bothering me because its better than white smoke and clear body, pharaohcalvin has convinced me though to just nominate defiant when c tier discussion comes.
Also Jamero defiant is currently C tier, which is what was bothering me because its better than white smoke and clear body, pharaohcalvin has convinced me though to just nominate defiant when c tier discussion comes.
@ Jimera
What i am saying is, that, Marvel Scale gives a boost that can't be ignored to many pokes, and as such it should be A Tier. Of 'course Iron Barbs and many other B or C Tier abilties benefit every poke without giving any downside, but most of the time, it feels like you don't have an ability, which is not the case with Marvel Scale.
@Scarfwynaut
Nice to see us agreeing!
What i am saying is, that, Marvel Scale gives a boost that can't be ignored to many pokes, and as such it should be A Tier. Of 'course Iron Barbs and many other B or C Tier abilties benefit every poke without giving any downside, but most of the time, it feels like you don't have an ability, which is not the case with Marvel Scale.
@Scarfwynaut
Nice to see us agreeing!
forestflamerunner
Ain't no rest for the wicked
Made the"significantly" change to the A tier Ability description for clarities sake
I feel like VaporeonIce has already addressed my views regarding Solid Rock and filter better than I could (though I'm not sure I fully agree with the point about neutral coverage meaning the benefits of reduced super effective damage aren't A Tier worthy), so I'm going to only address Heatproof here. Heatproof is like a version of Thick Fat that, instead of halving the damage from ice attacks, halves the damage from burns. While I'll admit that probably isn't quite as good we really don't have anyway of appreciating how beneficial an extra fire resistance and the reduced burn damage would be (as compared to an extra ice and fire resistance for instance) since Heatproof is never used. The only Pokemon that gets it is Bronzong, and, outside of gimmick balloon sets (which I've heard sometimes use levitate anyway to be even more gimmicky), it never uses it. I mean, sure, it's possible that with a wider distribution we'd see that the ability isn't that good, but I think that the idea of a permanent occa berry that activates even if you're not weak to fire is something a lot of Pokemon would really appreciate.
I will admit I do see some merit to the life orb argument, Solar Power does decrease its viability somewhat due to the enormity of the HP drop inherent in running both. However, while the 1.3x boost form Solar Powerless life orb is nice, I think it's possible that you're forgetting that, with Choice Specs, Solar Power gives you a 2.25x boost to your damage output, that's 1.73x more than life orb does by itself. Just to give you an idea of how much power that is, in the sun choice specs solar power pansear (not simisear) would have more power than itemless Deoxys-Attack forme and anything holding a life orb up through Azelf and Thundurus (even just the ability gives it the same amount of power using Choice Specs as Infernape). Pansear has base 53 Special Attack, worse than . When Choice Specs Solar Power Lopunny, a Pokemon with base 54 Special Attack, deals 68.1% min to Max/Max+ Blissey with Focus Blast and 89.9% min to the standard with a chance to OHKO, you don't even that much special attack to use it, just decent to good speed (or decentish speed and decent to good special attack so it can be run with Choice Scarf, giving you the equivalent of both Choice Scarf and Specs at the sole cost of essentially taking burn damage at the end of each turn). And that's nothing to say about how good it would be on something with better-than-decent special attack and speed like Infernape.
When looking at Solar Power you have to consider how deeply flawed the three current holders of the ability are. Tropius has base 51 speed, Sunflora is Sunflora (and even slower), and Charizard is 4x weak to stealth rock (though sun and solar power held it in UU instead of the depths of NU, where it currently resides, before Drought was banned). Give it too something without those problems and it would be amazing.
If that's the case, then that should be added to the A Tier definition because currently it reads:
...which says nothing about magnitude in its current phrasing, just that it benefits generally anything with it. From what I can tell, people seem to be interpreting A Tier as "Abilities that have a noticable, beneficial impact on most Pokemon (or at least a wide classification of Pokemon who they're designed for). While these abilities won't make things that can't stand up to the competition in OU without a great ability good, they will grant significant improvement to stuff that already has some degree of viability in pretty many or most battles battle." Would this be more accurate in your opinion?
Edit: Just saw forestrlamerunner's alteration to the definition. I believe that does make things clearer but I'm still not sure it's perfect. Is sheer force for instance really a significant improvement to generally anything it's slapped on? Very few of the things that get it really have that many non-outclassed moves to abuse it with. Yes there's the Nido's and Feraligatr (and maybe Rampardos), but does anything else really? Also, does Moxie really lead to significant improvement or does it just make things that are already good a little better? Outside aiding endgame sweeps, sure it helps you deal more damage to checks or counters but how significant is that improvement. After all, Scrafty for instance uses Shed Skin, a B tier ability, over Moxie more than half the time.
Hmm, after some thought I am backing down from defending flare boost. I don't know why it took me so long, but I finally realized a 1.5 boost from only burns isn't that great in comparison to A tier abilities as it needs a pretty specialized pokemon and set to be used. I guess it was part of me being subconsciously pissed that quick feet remained A-tier. (I had a lot of time to think about this on the toilet). I still find static and flame body too similar to effect spore though and am not backing off that.
No one responded to my multitype and leaf gaurd suggestions, so I guess ill expand on that (not nominations yet):
-Multitype to A: Guys, you can change your freaking type with this ability. Tired of being pursuited to death, no problem. Useless secondary type causing a stealth rock weakness, say bye to that. Here is a wild thought, slap a ghost plate onto your niche defensive pokemon and now you have a spin blocker too. If your really wild you can say Flareon would love this ability, because finally it would get stab return (lol). Plenty of use let your imagination run wild. I can see the argument against this ability though because it does force you to run a plate as an item, which limits its usefulness, but I don't know if that outweighs the possible usefulness though.
-Leaf guard to C tier- My main issue with this is it only activates in the sun first off. I also have a hard time seeing what pokemon could really benefit from it, sweepers would rather have solar power or chlorophyll. Defensive pokemon can't even heal with rest, and such an ability that only works in the sun is pretty unreliable. Imagine if hydration didn't heal rest, would anyone use hydration on vaporeon? It seems way too unreliable to be used effectively.
No one responded to my multitype and leaf gaurd suggestions, so I guess ill expand on that (not nominations yet):
-Multitype to A: Guys, you can change your freaking type with this ability. Tired of being pursuited to death, no problem. Useless secondary type causing a stealth rock weakness, say bye to that. Here is a wild thought, slap a ghost plate onto your niche defensive pokemon and now you have a spin blocker too. If your really wild you can say Flareon would love this ability, because finally it would get stab return (lol). Plenty of use let your imagination run wild. I can see the argument against this ability though because it does force you to run a plate as an item, which limits its usefulness, but I don't know if that outweighs the possible usefulness though.
-Leaf guard to C tier- My main issue with this is it only activates in the sun first off. I also have a hard time seeing what pokemon could really benefit from it, sweepers would rather have solar power or chlorophyll. Defensive pokemon can't even heal with rest, and such an ability that only works in the sun is pretty unreliable. Imagine if hydration didn't heal rest, would anyone use hydration on vaporeon? It seems way too unreliable to be used effectively.
@Scarfwynaut
I agree with you about Leaf Guard. I also somewhat agree about Multitype, but there is something that you missed. Most pokes would need a big enough movepool to utilize this ability. What use is making your defensive poke a spin blocker, if it can't have STAB Shadow Ball, and will get set-up on by half the metagame? But despite this flaw i think that Multitype is worthy of an A-tier status, because it adds so much versatility and options for most pokes.
I agree with you about Leaf Guard. I also somewhat agree about Multitype, but there is something that you missed. Most pokes would need a big enough movepool to utilize this ability. What use is making your defensive poke a spin blocker, if it can't have STAB Shadow Ball, and will get set-up on by half the metagame? But despite this flaw i think that Multitype is worthy of an A-tier status, because it adds so much versatility and options for most pokes.
Scarfwynaut, I think you have a good point about Effect Spore (10% chance to equal Static, 10% chance to be WAY better, 10% chance to be crappier) but not Poison Point, because normal poison isn't nearly as game-changing as burn (for a physical attacker) or paralysis. I'd vote for nominating Effect Spore for B tier when the C tier discussion comes up.
I'll second my points about Flare Boost. Using it reliably forces you to run a Flame Orb, and I'd much rather just go with Life Orb and have the option of not losing 12.5% of my health if I want to boost, use Sub, etc. It can be good, but definitely not A tier good.
Victory Star is B tier, in my mind. The fact that it's so vastly inferior to CompoundEyes makes it seem like it should be worse, but really, everything can use it. Getting 90% accurate moves up to 99% and having 93.5% Fire Blasts and 88% Hydro Pumps and Stone Edges is kind of cool for anything, even if it doesn't make moves that miss all the time (like Hypnosis and Focus Blast) miss significantly less often. I've also argued for CompoundEyes and No Guard to be A tier, though, so it makes more sense in that context.
I can kind of hear you on Defiant vs. Clear Body and White Smoke. The main benefit of Clear Body/White Smoke is preventing random defense drops from Crunch, Shadow Ball, etc., which offensive Pokemon don't care about (and the deadly Seed Flare, but only one UU Pokemon and one Uber Pokemon get that). Other than Intimidate, Clear Body/White Smoke are really just inferior versions of Shield Dust (which is NOT a C Tier ability, but that's another discussion), because no one uses moves that only lower stats. With Intimidate's popularity waning (thanks to Mence and Gyarados getting Moxie), I'm not sure about how useful Clear Body and White Smoke (and Defiant, for that matter) really are. I could see the argument for them moving to C Tier, though maybe other people will bring up points I haven't though of.
I'll second my points about Flare Boost. Using it reliably forces you to run a Flame Orb, and I'd much rather just go with Life Orb and have the option of not losing 12.5% of my health if I want to boost, use Sub, etc. It can be good, but definitely not A tier good.
Victory Star is B tier, in my mind. The fact that it's so vastly inferior to CompoundEyes makes it seem like it should be worse, but really, everything can use it. Getting 90% accurate moves up to 99% and having 93.5% Fire Blasts and 88% Hydro Pumps and Stone Edges is kind of cool for anything, even if it doesn't make moves that miss all the time (like Hypnosis and Focus Blast) miss significantly less often. I've also argued for CompoundEyes and No Guard to be A tier, though, so it makes more sense in that context.
I can kind of hear you on Defiant vs. Clear Body and White Smoke. The main benefit of Clear Body/White Smoke is preventing random defense drops from Crunch, Shadow Ball, etc., which offensive Pokemon don't care about (and the deadly Seed Flare, but only one UU Pokemon and one Uber Pokemon get that). Other than Intimidate, Clear Body/White Smoke are really just inferior versions of Shield Dust (which is NOT a C Tier ability, but that's another discussion), because no one uses moves that only lower stats. With Intimidate's popularity waning (thanks to Mence and Gyarados getting Moxie), I'm not sure about how useful Clear Body and White Smoke (and Defiant, for that matter) really are. I could see the argument for them moving to C Tier, though maybe other people will bring up points I haven't though of.
If you guys don't mind Imma throw my hat into the ring for a sec with the CompoundEyes and No Guard thing. No Guard makes it so moves don't miss vs Compound Eyes which increases acc by 30%. No Guard seems like it'd be better in most situations however, I feel as though we're missing two important factors that imo Compound Eyes is better than No guard.
The first is that Compound Eyes does everything it's supposed to. It makes 70% acc moves a cool 91% which is beautiful. Also anything above 75% is nearly 100% accurate which is cool beans imo. What pokemon wouldn't absolutely love a 91% acc Thunder and 100% acc Fire Blast. While it's true that no guard does all that and more I cant help but feel people are underestimating Compound Eyes Simply because No Guard does this better. I understand this factor though which leads me to the second Factor. The entire reason I feel Compound Eyes is better than No Guard.
No Guard makes it so no pokemon can miss. This includes your opponent's pokemon and that be a serious factor in determining No Guards usefulness. This also goes hand in hand with my first factor. Compound Eyes makes it so you can still hit with moves that you need to hit with like Fire Blast and Thunder without letting your opponent do the same.
IMO Compound Eyes is better than No Guard however, that doesn't mean don't want No Guard to go up a tier. I think it's a good A tier. It increases everything up to 100% which is a GODSEND! However, (I never thought I'd say this) the devil's in the details. your opponent has 100% Acc too which can be detrimental and Compound Eyes is still a beautiful ability without giving your opponent an opportunity to take you out.
My final Statement. No Guard and Compound Eyes for A tier.
The first is that Compound Eyes does everything it's supposed to. It makes 70% acc moves a cool 91% which is beautiful. Also anything above 75% is nearly 100% accurate which is cool beans imo. What pokemon wouldn't absolutely love a 91% acc Thunder and 100% acc Fire Blast. While it's true that no guard does all that and more I cant help but feel people are underestimating Compound Eyes Simply because No Guard does this better. I understand this factor though which leads me to the second Factor. The entire reason I feel Compound Eyes is better than No Guard.
No Guard makes it so no pokemon can miss. This includes your opponent's pokemon and that be a serious factor in determining No Guards usefulness. This also goes hand in hand with my first factor. Compound Eyes makes it so you can still hit with moves that you need to hit with like Fire Blast and Thunder without letting your opponent do the same.
IMO Compound Eyes is better than No Guard however, that doesn't mean don't want No Guard to go up a tier. I think it's a good A tier. It increases everything up to 100% which is a GODSEND! However, (I never thought I'd say this) the devil's in the details. your opponent has 100% Acc too which can be detrimental and Compound Eyes is still a beautiful ability without giving your opponent an opportunity to take you out.
My final Statement. No Guard and Compound Eyes for A tier.
I think No Guard deserves an A rank as well. There are 2 fully evolved Pokemon that get it, and BOTH get DynamicPunch. It is probably the only thing keeping Machamp in UU rather than something like RU (it was OU at one point just for that ability helping it out with DynamicPunch), and it makes Golurk pretty good/annoyinh too. Stone Edge never missing is also a huge plus for these two. But overall, a never-missing DynamicPunch makes any Pokemon take notice, and even then, almost anything would appreciate it if their Blizzards, Thunders, Stone Edges, Focus Blasts, Fire Blasts, Draco Metreors,etc. would always hit, as these moves missing can often be game changing. Even if the opponent gets such luck, you don't even have to care about packing inaccurate moves.
That however is a specialized move pool at that point. I don't think it is A tier worthy at all. You need the moves to use it, and the offensive stats. Defensive pokemon tend not to use many low Acc moves, and so it is just down right bad for them. It requires quite a bit out of a pokemon, Compound Eyes, however I can kinda see an argument for A tier.
I don't think NG/CE really needs a specialized movepool, because when you think about it, almost every water type gets Hydro Pump, almost every electric type gets Thunder, almost every fire type gets Fire Blast (some get Inferno), almost every ice type gets Blizzard, most fully evolved mons get Focus Blast, lots of physical attackers get Stone Edge, even DynamicPunch has decent distribution through 3rd gen tutor. Defensive Pokemon tend to overlook high power, low accuracy moves because a miss could potentially ruin their walling capability, as well as lower powered moves sometimes having good status chance (Scald, Lava Plume, Discharge). But if a defensive mon had No Guard and Discharge, of course it would snap up the chance to use Thunder, being 50% more powerful than Discharge. Compound Eyes might be preferable for a defensive mon even though it wouldn't boost it completely to never-miss, but it wouldn't come with the downside of all high-power, low-acc and status moves always hitting it (something defensive mons dislike).
Summary: I think No Guard and Compound Eyes deserve A rank.
Sorry if this seems like I'm randomly jumping in, I've been lurking this thread for awhile.
Summary: I think No Guard and Compound Eyes deserve A rank.
Sorry if this seems like I'm randomly jumping in, I've been lurking this thread for awhile.
forestflamerunner
Ain't no rest for the wicked
I'd like to talk about multitype for a minute. Initially I placed multitype in B tier because I was operating under the assumption that when a Pokemon used multitype the opponent would be able to immediately determine what type the Pokemon is (like you can with arceus. However, if we want to say that you cannot make this determination, I would argue that multitype should be moved up to A tier if not S tier.
The reason behind this statement is that most of a pokemons checks and counters are determined by typing or at the very least you determine what move to use against a Pokemon based on its typing. For example when your opponent brings out volcarona. Now generally you would try to switch to something like scarf landoros to scare volcarona off with the threat of stone edge. However, if volcarona has multitype you don't know if your stone edge will be super effective or if it will be a resisted hit. You couldn't switch to a salamence or something either to take the predictable fire/bug coverage because It volcarona could be holdings mind plate and then hit your poor salamence with an unexpected psychic ( actually volcarona doesn't get Psychic but you get my point). Multitype would completely metamorphosis the whole concept of checks and counters. In competitive Pokemon there are two things, regardless of all else, that we know about a Pokemon: it's base stats and it's typing. Multitype just turns this right on its head. There are Pokemon out there that would be truly scary with this ability. Think about starmie, celebi, or even blissey(you do not want to deal with steel typed blisseys). I think you can see the amazing potential of multitype. Of course, this is all dependent on the opponent not knowing the type of your multitype poke right off the bat. If we feel that would be part of multitypes mechanics, then the ability loses a lot of its surprise factor and should stay in b tier.
The reason behind this statement is that most of a pokemons checks and counters are determined by typing or at the very least you determine what move to use against a Pokemon based on its typing. For example when your opponent brings out volcarona. Now generally you would try to switch to something like scarf landoros to scare volcarona off with the threat of stone edge. However, if volcarona has multitype you don't know if your stone edge will be super effective or if it will be a resisted hit. You couldn't switch to a salamence or something either to take the predictable fire/bug coverage because It volcarona could be holdings mind plate and then hit your poor salamence with an unexpected psychic ( actually volcarona doesn't get Psychic but you get my point). Multitype would completely metamorphosis the whole concept of checks and counters. In competitive Pokemon there are two things, regardless of all else, that we know about a Pokemon: it's base stats and it's typing. Multitype just turns this right on its head. There are Pokemon out there that would be truly scary with this ability. Think about starmie, celebi, or even blissey(you do not want to deal with steel typed blisseys). I think you can see the amazing potential of multitype. Of course, this is all dependent on the opponent not knowing the type of your multitype poke right off the bat. If we feel that would be part of multitypes mechanics, then the ability loses a lot of its surprise factor and should stay in b tier.
Reasonable argument, except that one of the ideas behind Multitype is that the opponent is able to identify what type is being used. My personal opinion is that Multitype is one of those abilities that just doesn't make sense outside of the Pokemon in question, like Zen Mode. With that in mind, I think it shouldn't even be considered for ranking.
forestflamerunner
Ain't no rest for the wicked
@ Acritter
See, I dont know about multitype being in the same boat as zen mode. In Multitypes case I can imagine what it would be like on say, infernape; I would know how it would work and when to use it and things like that. In Zen modes case, I really have no idea how it would work on anything but darminitan
See, I dont know about multitype being in the same boat as zen mode. In Multitypes case I can imagine what it would be like on say, infernape; I would know how it would work and when to use it and things like that. In Zen modes case, I really have no idea how it would work on anything but darminitan
Although I agree with No Guard for A tier, possibly even S at a push, I feel like I should point out that unless your foe is specifically using low accuracy moves, which is rare in the metagame with the exception of Stone Edge and a few 90% moves, they will not abuse it.
No Guard, on the other hand, allows for you to use a hypothetical Starmie with Thunder/Blizzard/Hydro Pump instead of Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam, and unless your foe is specifically abuseing low accuracy moves, as stated before, there is no downside.
No Guard improves many pokemon unless they have nothing but 100% accurate moves in their movepools, or maybe something like Aggron who would kill itself with recoil. Many Dragons would love to use Dragon Rush instead of locking into Outrage. Many Fire Types would love 100% Fire Blasts.
Also, No Guard effects all pokemon in the battle. In Doubles/Triples, you can build whole teams around No Guard. Not sure how much bearing Doubles/Triples has on this list, but it's something.
I agree that is nearly impossible to fit Zen Mode in some category. But looking at Darmanitan's Zen Mode form we could say that it swaps your attack stats, lowers your speed and increase your defenses. Maybe it could work on a Belly Drum set in a Trick Room Team, but I guess that it's too situational...
Zen mode and multitype are on completely different playing fields. There is way to much difference between them to compare them at all.
Back on multitype, its kind of hard to determine if one would know the ability or not. The only example we have is Arcues of course. Being the only example, I suppose you would know, maybe that psychic-volcanora would be a shade of pink. I honestly don't think it matters, if your team relies on scarf Terrakion to take down Volcanora, it honestly doesn't matter if you know the type or not because now your check is useless. Again this is all hypothetical considering it doesn't even have psychic.
It seems that multitype has some support so I’m going to go ahead and:
Nominate multitype
Back on multitype, its kind of hard to determine if one would know the ability or not. The only example we have is Arcues of course. Being the only example, I suppose you would know, maybe that psychic-volcanora would be a shade of pink. I honestly don't think it matters, if your team relies on scarf Terrakion to take down Volcanora, it honestly doesn't matter if you know the type or not because now your check is useless. Again this is all hypothetical considering it doesn't even have psychic.
It seems that multitype has some support so I’m going to go ahead and:
Nominate multitype
Actually it doesn't; it only affects Pokemon that are targeting the No Guard User and the No Guard user itself. Other than that, I agree with your points.
The assumption that you cannot determine a Pokemon's type would instantly move Multitype up, but even without it, it is still very powerful. To go back to your Multitype Volcarona example, even if you see the Volcarona is Psychic-typed when it comes out, you still can't switch in your scarf Terrakion in as it Quiver Dances (It does get Psychic btw). Normal counters to Psychic-types like Scizor get slaughtered by Fire moves you're still presumably carrying. Sure it's Pursuit bait now, but Scizor is scared by Fire moves and Tyranitar fears Bug ones. And even if the typing is shown instantly in battle, it's not shown in team preview.Thus, I believe Multitype belongs in A-tier, S-tier if you don't know its typing. In a battle, you don't have time to figure out a Pokemon's typing, even if you know it will be monotype. It's significantly tougher to find an opposing mon's typing than to find the typing of their hidden power. Most Pokemon only have two or three viable hidden power options. For that, it's just a matter of switching between a couple of your pokemon. To figure out multitype, you have to try different attacks and hope you have a strong, neutral one on the 'mon you have out, because if the opponent with Multitype has any sort of set-up move, you really don't have time to find a super-effective move that will only be 2x the strength. If the Multi-typer has a set-up move AND a recovery move and you don't instantly know its typing, you're pretty much screwed right off the bat.
Volcarona can learn Psychic, I'm really not sure how everyone is getting that wrong.
I also have to agree with Multitype, in fact I suggested it for S Tier a long time ago. Even if you can see it in battle, it makes the Pokémon impossible to hard counter, meaning it's much more difficult to prepare for in Team Builder.
Edit: LockDown basically said what I wanted to but better, that's what I get for not refreshing the page.
I also have to agree with Multitype, in fact I suggested it for S Tier a long time ago. Even if you can see it in battle, it makes the Pokémon impossible to hard counter, meaning it's much more difficult to prepare for in Team Builder.
Edit: LockDown basically said what I wanted to but better, that's what I get for not refreshing the page.
Hmmmm, actually very valid points about multi-typing. If Mutli-typing was on more then just the one it is on now, (who is banned but does actually greatly impact the tier it is in) Multi-typing would warp the tiers completely. Pokemon once held back by typing alone would be able to rise higher up. Think if Charizard could be a pure fire type. Even if you can see there typing, it would still be crazy. I can actually see it making many many pokemon viable who weren't very much so before and make ones at are now crazy, which really no requirements for them at all.
No, Double/Triple battles have no bearing in this list. (If they did Plus/minus and friend guard wouldn't be in f tier.)
That's just the thing though. Every one of your points is what I brought up in my post about No Guard vs Compound Eyes. No Guard makes it so no pokemon could miss and what pokemon wouldn't want that. (Dragon Rush over Dragon Claw means more power without locking you into the move. What Dragon Wouldn't absolutely love that? Dragons without Dragon Rush That's who) My entire point about my post is that you need to consider the Downsides No Guard has as well. If Something comes in with say Sleep Powder/Hypnosis/any move your not bulky enough to take that has low acc high power. (Say Kyurem using Blizzard on No Guard Dragonite.) That can be detrimental to a pokemon and we need to consider all options in tiering. That said No Guard is a beast ability and it obviously deserves to go up a rank. (Not S class though. Though nearly any offensive with low acc moves would love No Guard, Consider that defensive pokemon with low speed and a lack of abusive low acc moves have no need for it. What can Ferrothorn do with No Guard? I'd rather give it Magic Guard.)
You also need to consider that, like I said before, Compound Eyes does everything it's supposed to do. While no perfect acc, it will increase Blizzard's/Hydro Pump's/Thunder's acc to acceptable levels without giving your opponent an advantage. That's why Compound Eyes is better imo. (Going back to the Dragonite for a sec, Dragon Rush is increased to 97% giving it near perfect acc and that Kyurem isn't gonna revenge kill so easily with a 70% Blizzard. ;D)
Just a small nitpick as I agree that No Guard should go to A not S tier, but Ferrothorn would love never having to worry about missing with Leech Seed 10% of the time or Power Whip 15% of the time. You're probably right that it would prefer Magic Guard though, but it's not like it wouldn't get any benefit from No Guard.