Ability Tiering Thread and General Ability Discussion (Final Check)

[SkullCandy]

I'd say Multiscale should be moved up to S.

It made a questionably decent Dragon-type (I mean, even Kingdra was used more than it last Gen) into the behemoth BW players know it as. It also ensures that at full health the Pokemon with Multiscale will not die. I mean, I've seen Dragonite survive a Specs Latios Draco Meteor and OHKO back with Outrage. Also, unlike Sturdy, this can be used with Roost/Recover for extra annoyance. I can't even imaging how good Lugia's going to be once it gets this. I mean, it outspeeds nearly every Physical attacker in Ubers (Garchomp, Groudon, Rayquaza) and can use Recover over and over again to never die to them.

Up to you :)

 

[pharaohcalvin]

I think Multiscale fits A better personally. I mean you can't just give Mulitscale to anyone, and have them be usable. It could help anyone that is for sure, but if I gave Politoed Multiscale I don't think it would have hopped up to OU like Drizzle made it. Now Contrary, I'm going to make the argument for it to be B tier. Honestly, I have no idea how it even got put into S, you need a move pool to abuse it. You have to have Leaf Storm, Draco ect for it to even be useful outside of reversing intimadate, which I guess is a pretty nice thing if you are a physical sweep that doesn't get to run boosting moves of your own. Maybe A tier, but not S for sure. (Still personally thinking B)

 

[voodoo pimp]

Now Contrary, I'm going to make the argument for it to be B tier. Honestly, I have no idea how it even got put into S, you need a move pool to abuse it. You have to have Leaf Storm, Draco ect for it to even be useful outside of reversing intimadate, which I guess is a pretty nice thing if you are a physical sweep that doesn't get to run boosting moves of your own. Maybe A tier, but not S for sure. (Still personally thinking B)

We've been over this before, a S Tier ability does not have to be broken on everything.

 

[Stratos]

i think battle + shell armors should be moved up to C rank.

simply put, while they may only activate one in every sixteen times you get hit, nothing ruins your day like being critted and thus killed, and those prevent it. I know that *technically* working rarely is the definition of D rank, but they're applicable in all circumstances if not always activated.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

We've been over this before, a S Tier ability does not have to be broken on everything.

S Tier- Abilities that are so good that the ability will often make otherwise unusable Pokémon viable.
A Tier- A Tier abilities are abilities that are great on their own merit, and don’t require specially tailored stat spreads or movepools to make them effective. These abilities can generally be slapped on any Pokémon and that Pokémon would be better for it.
B Tier- Abilities that are good but not as good as A Tier abilities either because they require a more customized movepool and stat spread to be effective, are more specialized in purpose or effect, or are have affects that are just flat out inferior to the affects of A or S Tier Abilities

Just based on what the opening says, I just see it fitting better in B. I just don't see it often making otherwise nonviable pokemon viable is all, because you need the customized movepool for it to work is all. It is a great ability, it is just I see lots of pokemon would not want it. Dragon types are about it, as they all have DM, but even that right there is customizing your move pool for it, you have to carry that move to make it truly effective. I just can't see it in S, based on what you have set as the standards in the opening. Now, I can maybe see an argument for A, because any physical sweeper without a stat increasing ability may be better with it, but even then that isn't a outrageously large amount of pokemon. I'm just not convinced it is S material. Everything else there should be there IMO.

 

[voodoo pimp]

"Stat spread" is an important part of that too. B Tier abilities don't make bad Pokémon good, they make good Pokémon better under the right circumstances.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

I am still not convinced it is S tier, but I can see it being in A, just S no it doesn't just make a pokemon viable. There is just more to it them say something like Drizzle, that if Politoed didn't exist we could give it to let just say Poliwhirl and Poliwhirl would become viable. I know that abilities can be on how different levels within the S tier, it is just, it is not S tier by what the S tier is listed as in the opening. It just can't make otherwise unuseable pokemon viable on its own, the pokemon needs its own personally right tools.

 

[jake]

@Deck Knight:

I think you're making a critical mistake. We're not talking about how these abilities would fare in some magical metagame where every Pokemon could have access to them (Balanced Hackmons). We're talking about how strong these abilities pan out being in the standard game. For example, Drizzle is a REALLY GOOD ABILITY, but only because it's so limited.

I thought this list existed to categorize abilities solely on their own merit, without using the existing Pokemon that have those abilities to judge them. Drizzle isn't a really good ability just because it's limited; even if there were like ten other Pokemon that got Drizzle, then all of them could certainly be considered competitively valuable based on Drizzle's competitive merit alone (now, which Pokemon would be used more than the others would be more of a question of "which Pokemon is better etc"). You can't say that Deck Knight is making a critical mistake because he's doing exactly what is supposed to be done in this thread. I don't think that criticizing the metagame that he's talking about is relevant to the discussion.

If it were available to every Pokemon, it would be kinda meh.

That applies to literally every ability.

 

[VaporeonIce]

I decided to look at Contrary using actual numbers. Here's a breakdown of OU:

OU Pokemon that benefit from Contrary
Breloom (its B/W page needs to say that it learns Superpower), Celebi, Conkeldurr, Donphan (same note as Breloom), Dragonite, Heatran, Hydreigon, Infernape, Jirachi (Draco Meteor event), Landorus, Latias, Latios, Lucario, Mamoswine, Metagross, Ninetales, Salamence, Scizor, Terrakion, Tornadus, Tyranitar, Venusaur, Virizion, Volcarona

OU Pokemon that don't benefit from Contrary
Alakazam, Blissey, Chansey, Cloyster, Dugtrio, Espeon, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Gastrodon, Gengar, Gliscor, Gyarados, Haxorus (it has 60 base SpAtk; I don't think Draco Meteor is really worth it), Jellicent, Jolteon, Magnezone, Mienshao, Politoed, Reuniclus, Rotom-W, Scrafty, Skarmory, Starmie, Tentacruel, Toxicroak, Vaporeon

So that's 24 Pokemon that benefit and 26 that don't. Obviously, some of the Pokemon in the "benefit" list might see less use with Contrary than their current ability (*cough cough Ninetales*). Most of those Pokemon are vastly improved by the ability; the main exceptions are Ninetales (too crappy), Tyranitar (too slow and loves Sand Stream too much), Landorus and Tornadus (already fast, doesn't help their niche too much), and maybe Venusaur (also too slow).

Based on all that, I'd call it A tier, but it's pretty unique. It can absolutely break a lot of Pokemon, and I do think there are some Pokemon that are otherwise not so good who could be amazing with Contrary (Arcanine comes to mind; Kingdra's already good, but it would be a nightmare; even stuff like Manectric could be pretty frightening). But it also does absolutely nothing useful (other than like, preventing Crunch defense drops) on the majority of Pokemon. So I'd call it A tier; it helps a wide variety of Pokemon drastically, but it also does require some specialization. It doesn't really match the description of the A tier or the B tier, in my mind, because it benefits too many Pokemon too much to be B tier, but it's not useful to enough Pokemon to be A tier.

 

[forestflamerunner]

@ PharoahCalvin
Contrary does require a certain moves to have any effect, but I put it in S tier because any pokemon that has access to draco meteor, leaf storm, and the other relevant moves and a Base offensive stat over 75 immediately becomes a top tier threat. The ability takes moves that are already superpowerful like Overheat and tacks on a nasty plot to it. This ability made serperior a behemoth in DW while it struggles in NU without it. Although quoting pokemon that got an ability and then skyrocketed up a few tiers isn't a great argument, it does demonstrate the power of Contrary.

Skill link is not in the same league as contrary. Skill link takes moves that are alright and makess them good, examples being bullet seed and rock blast. this is useful and can provide additional power and can help out the pokemon that get these abilities. That does not compare to the power of Contrary. Even without skill link rock blast, there is still Stone edge, which is somewhat weaker but is still a viable move. However, the stat dropping moves, which are rarely used on sweepers because of their downsides, suddenly become the source of the pokemons strength. I submit to you that if Cloyster did not have Skill link, it would still be OU. however, any OU pokemon that has a stat dropping move and loses contrary will find itself plummetting into NU.

True, contrary does require very specific moves to be effective, but to fair, even abilities in the S tier require at least some level of customization in the set or movepool; huge power requires an attack stat of at least 40, prankster needs some support moves to play with, even wonderguard requires a pokemon with at least decent defenses. Contrary does require the most customization of all the abilities in the S tier, but when it does get the applicable moves, the results are devestating, and that is why it deserves S tier

 

[voodoo pimp]

I am still not convinced it is S tier, but I can see it being in A, just S no it doesn't just make a pokemon viable. There is just more to it them say something like Drizzle, that if Politoed didn't exist we could give it to let just say Poliwhirl and Poliwhirl would become viable. I know that abilities can be on how different levels within the S tier, it is just, it is not S tier by what the S tier is listed as in the opening. It just can't make otherwise unuseable pokemon viable on its own, the pokemon needs its own personally right tools.

You're still missing my point. Nowhere in the S Tier description does it say the ability has to be completely independent of all the Pokémon's other qualities (it even says "often"), and changing it to that would be unnecessarily restrictive. Nobody uses Spinda or offensive Serperior without Contrary because they're completely outclassed, but with it they're suddenly relevant (Spinda admittedly less so, but the fact remains that people use it at all, and it's entirely because of Contrary).

 

[VaporeonIce]

The thing is, there are only four moves that turn you into an offensive threat with Contrary: Leaf Storm, Overheat, Draco Meteor, and Superpower. If you don't have one of those, you're relying on your own offensive merits to be dangerous. Close Combat can boost your defenses, Hammer Arm can boost your speed, and V-Create can boost both. But that comes at the cost of being unable to boost your offensive stats, leaving you relatively easily phazed out (unless you have one of the four offensive boosting moves).

I just don't think it's in the same company with the other S tier abilities. Looking at the list I posted, the Pokemon that are really good with it are those with one of the four listed moves. Lucario's not very impressive with it, because it can no longer Swords Dance and murder your team. Your power maxed out at Life Orb, which sort of defeats the purpose of boosting your defenses in the first place. I don't think the abilities should be independent of all of the other Pokemon's qualities (obviously, you're not going to like Pure Power that much if you have an awful physical movepool and poor physical attack), but when the requirement to make the ability S tier is having one of four moves (and none of those moves are ubiquitous like Protect and Substitute), I just don't think it qualifies. That said, it's a strange case.

And let's be honest...almost nobody really uses Spinda. It's "PU" for a reason. Sure, one guy did well with it in the Dark Horse project, but the only clip I ever saw of it doing anything was it Superpowering twice on a Ferrothorn that stupidly stayed in, resulting in a KO. Then Spinda promptly died.

 

[Jukain]

Contrary is an S rank ability because it does exactly what it says it should do, bringing Pokemon out of obscurity. It doesn't matter if a million things are useless with it. If one Pokemon gets it that can use it, the ability is great. Contrary on Serperior. Really good. Sub Seed Leaf Storm HP Fire in OU is better than screens in NU. Serperior is suddenly viable with Contrary. Using, say, Shuckle as a counter-example is useless, as Contrary does make an otherwise unusable or extremely hard to use Pokemon usable.

 

[Acritter]

That applies to literally every ability.

No, it doesn't. Intimidate, for example, is gonna keep on being good no matter how many Pokemon it's on. Drizzle and Drought are outstanding PRECISELY because they are in such short supply.

Let me explain using clear examples. Vulpix is unheard of in OU, because it is completely inferior to Ninetales in every way, shape and form. However, it has this S-tier ability! What gives? What gives, in short, is that OU does not care what Pokemon has Drought. All OU cares about is that it has the ability available to it, no matter how bad that Pokemon may be. Sure, there will eventually be a tipping point where you're just not going to run that Drizzle Magikarp because permarain isn't worth starting a 'mon down, but my point stands. OU will "decide" upon one ideal Drizzle 'mon and one ideal Drought 'mon, and leave all the others by the wayside. Maybe there could be a couple more, but by far and large all other Pokemon would be simply ignored. This doesn't apply to something like Intimidate. The entirety of OU could have Intimidate. This is the difference between a weathersetting ability and any other ability: the weathersetting ability is a yes/no thing. Either your team has it, or it doesn't. Redundancy doesn't offer power. Any other ability is cumulative. Each instance of it on your team means your team does whatever the ability does better, whether that's good or bad.

So, in short, no, you're wrong.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

@ PharoahCalvin
Contrary does require a certain moves to have any effect, but I put it in S tier because any pokemon that has access to draco meteor, leaf storm, and the other relevant moves and a Base offensive stat over 75 immediately becomes a top tier threat. The ability takes moves that are already superpowerful like Overheat and tacks on a nasty plot to it. This ability made serperior a behemoth in DW while it struggles in NU without it. Although quoting pokemon that got an ability and then skyrocketed up a few tiers isn't a great argument, it does demonstrate the power of Contrary.

Skill link is not in the same league as contrary. Skill link takes moves that are alright and makess them good, examples being bullet seed and rock blast. this is useful and can provide additional power and can help out the pokemon that get these abilities. That does not compare to the power of Contrary. Even without skill link rock blast, there is still Stone edge, which is somewhat weaker but is still a viable move. However, the stat dropping moves, which are rarely used on sweepers because of their downsides, suddenly become the source of the pokemons strength. I submit to you that if Cloyster did not have Skill link, it would still be OU. however, any OU pokemon that has a stat dropping move and loses contrary will find itself plummetting into NU.

True, contrary does require very specific moves to be effective, but to fair, even abilities in the S tier require at least some level of customization in the set or movepool; huge power requires an attack stat of at least 40, prankster needs some support moves to play with, even wonderguard requires a pokemon with at least decent defenses. Contrary does require the most customization of all the abilities in the S tier, but when it does get the applicable moves, the results are devestating, and that is why it deserves S tier

I just feel it requires way more support then the other S ranked abilities, and just that it requires too much support to be S ranked. Yes the others require support, but have support moves is a lot easier then having one of 4 moves and 75 base offense. Wonderguard is useful even if your defenses aren't good because well you can become immune to so much it doesn't matter.

 

[doughboy]

Alright I think the biggest mistake on the tier (IMO) is that Magic Guard isn't S tier. Let me explain...

1. Immunity to all residual damage
   - This is essentially the barebones effect of Magic Guard, but that one little sentence encompasses so much that even I underestimate how significant that is. The big factor about this residual damage business is immunity to all hazards. The ability switch in and out freely makes you a much more "mobile" player and a bane to stall teams. Eliminating the ability for opposing Pokemon to get crucial KO's is huge and having the ability to use a type weak to rock without any repercussions is very nice (case in point). Your entire team benefits from Magic Guard by gaining a status absorber and these abusers seek out status. You can play tricks with Toxic Orb and Flame Orb, but when you receive a Poison or Burn you have a sweeper that can't be paralyzed or slept .(most relevant here.
2. Huge increase in power
   - The free Life Orb is known by most, but it is pretty important. Retaining your bulk and longevity with Life Orb and being immune to its negative effect that was designed to counteract its huge upsides is pretty awesome. While the most popular Magic Guard users are Reuniclus and Alakazam in OU, I don't think they show Magic Guard's offensive potential the most. That title belongs to Clefable. Clefable shows us that stuff as weak as her can be utilized a wallbreaker and another interesting side effect of Magic Guard: the lack of recoil on moves. In a way, Magic Guard acts as a mini-Sheer Force. If any Pokemon was given Magic Guard, they could easily upgrade their movepool to much more fearsome options. The most common upgrades being return to double edge, fire punch to flare blitz, and brave bird everything.
3. Gureenteed Revenge Kill
   - This is one of the niche uses of Magic Guard and one of the reasons why Zam was put into the spotlight. A Magic Guard user can effectively put a stop to a pokemon's sweep with a guareenteed revenge kill. Having the ability to just minimize the damage of a sweep with just the presence of a revenge killer I think is really big. There is also counter-coat shenanigans (I am waiting for you counter-sash zam :*[ )
4. How is this put into practice? / inviable to viable
   - Alright the most popular Magic Guard abusers have been made by their ability, let's take a look. Reuniclus, the most popular of all Magic Guard abusers, has a truly abysmal stat spread. It would have been just another generic psychic type in UU had it not been for Magic Guard. At the peak of its popularity, Reuniclus had a small following for being banworthy, due to maiming offensive teams with its TR set (can you say hydreigon power with LO outspeeding everything?) or putting a full stop to defensive teams with its CM set. We had Zam pull a Gastrodon and go from the depths of RU to OU with just the introduction of Magic Guard in one tiering cycle. Lastly, we have Sigiglyph. With a high profile rmt introducing him, he saw an increase with competing with the bad boys in OU from I believe NU (I think RU wasn't made at the time). Sigiglyph could never pull off his unique, standard set without Magic Guard.

TL;DR Magic Guard acting as a free LO boost (mini-sheer force), status immunity, same effect as rock head, and complete immunity to hazards (which some pokes would kill for) make it too good just to be placed within the A tier abilities. You get a huge increase in both attacking power and longevity with just one ability.

 

[alexwolf]

One things we are forgetting when talking about Contrary abusers is Speed. For a contrary poke to be succesful, it doesn't only want a specific movepool, but also the speed to abuse it.

For example, even if Breloom got Contrary, why would it be so much better? Lati@s, Dragonite, Celebi, Salamence, Gengar, Volcarona and some others still stop you quite easily, since they don't mind taking a Superpower at all... In fact i would argue that Poison Heal + Drain Punch is better than Contrary + Superpower.

The same problem is true for many other pokes that are easily revenge killed and have low speed, such as Scizor, Tyranitar, Conkeldurr and Donphan.

So imo, Contrary is obviously A tier, since for it to benefit a poke, the poke must have the appropriate movepool and the appropriate stat spread and typing(Speed and a typing that doesn't let it be revenge killed easily). But even if it doesn't, it can still be very useful for preventing Intimidate users from lowering your Atk stat, or Crunch from lowering your defense, so that's why i didn't put it to B tier.

 

[Jimera0]

I'm with the people who say Contrary should be A tier instead of S tier. It's kind of an odd case, much like Speed Boost: Some pokemon would be totally broken with the ability, while on others it's just "meh, that's cool" and some would rather go with their current abilities. Basically, it's like a C tier ability on some but a S tier on others. I think this split fits best in the A tier, due to the fact that pretty much anything (disregarding their actual abilities) would be better off for having it, if only for the immunity to Sp.Def/Def drops and Intimidate (which are pretty freaking common with Psychic and Crunch all over). And then there are some, like Celebi, Latios and Salamence that would be completely and utterly broken with it, and others like Manectric that would shoot up to OU. So yeah, it's kind of an odd case, but I'd say it belongs with Speed Boost in the A tier.

As for Magic Guard, it's kind of hard to say. It's very borderline, and I think that's why we're having such a hard time placing it. It's not as game shaping as Drizzle and Shadow Tag and such, but it's better than the vast majority of A tier abilities. I wouldn't be upset if it got moved to S tier, but I'm not convinced it's S tier material. It's a really hard call though; it does provide an amazing number of benefits, but are those benefits enough compared to things like Drizzle?

 

[Acritter]

One things we are forgetting when talking about Contrary abusers is Speed. For a contrary poke to be succesful, it doesn't only want a specific movepool, but also the speed to abuse it.

For example, even if Breloom got Contrary, why would it be so much better? Lati@s, Dragonite, Celebi, Salamence, Gengar, Volcarona and some others still stop you quite easily, since they don't mind taking a Superpower at all... In fact i would argue that Poison Heal + Drain Punch is better than Contrary + Superpower.

The same problem is true for many other pokes that are easily revenge killed and have low speed, such as Scizor, Tyranitar, Conkeldurr and Donphan.

So imo, Contrary is obviously A tier, since for it to benefit a poke, the poke must have the appropriate movepool and the appropriate stat spread and typing(Speed and a typing that doesn't let it be revenge killed easily). But even if it doesn't, it can still be very useful for preventing Intimidate users from lowering your Atk stat, or Crunch from lowering your defense, so that's why i didn't put it to B tier.

If it requires a specific movepool and stats to pull off, it's B-tier. Without stat-lowering offensive moves, Contrary is D-tier: sometimes helpful against things like Intimidate and Seed Flare, but in general just a waste of space (which can backfire by preventing the Pokemon from ever setting up). As you yourself stated, even with an appropriate move Contrary is still underwhelming on many Pokemon. Stormperior is hardly dominating DW. So you need two things right for Contrary to even remotely be considered as a game-changer: One of a very small number of moves (each of which, barring Draco Meteor, faces in standard OU 4x resists and Pokemon entirely immune to it) AND the stats to appropriately use the move it has (have fun with Superpower Contrary Chansey).

So yes, there are a small number of Pokemon that get much better with Contrary, but by far and large sticking it on a Pokemon does nothing or even hurts the Pokemon in question. Incidentally, most of the potentially powerful Contrarians are already OU/UU, because the combination of having one of those power moves and the stats to make them worthwhile generally means that a Pokemon is good already, even before you factor in Contrary. So even when you mix all this in you're only going to get a high OU to Ubers or a UU to OU.

 

[forestflamerunner]

There has been some great discussion and great debate on this forum in the past week, many points were made, and many changes have been made to the tier list. Now I would like to make a move to finalize the tier list. I have decided on a method in which the community can vote on which abilities are in which tier, and the methodology is described below.

Each Tier will be inspected one by one in several stages starting with the S- Tier all the way down to F Tier. Each stage deals with only ABILITIES WITHIN THE SPECIFIED TIER, NOT ABILITIES YOU THINK SHOULD BE IN THAT TIER. For example, the S Tier phase would focus on the abilities that I have placed in S Tier such as wonder guard and prankster, and not abilities that you feel should be moved to S Tier like magic guard and speed boost. Each Tier inspection will begin with a two day nomination and discussion period, where talk will be centered on the controversial abilities within the tier. You may nominate an ability to be voted upon in order to move it to a different tier. The ability you are nominating should be in bold. The nomination should include the reason for your nomination as well as the tier you feel the ability should be placed in. I would recommend that you dedicate specific posts for nominations and head them with a bolded title NOMINATION to make it easier for me to notice your nomination.

After the two day nomination and discussion period, I will set up the voting ballot. The ballot style will be a multiple bold vote in a similar style to the suspect testing ballots. The ballot will include the abilities that I believe are truly the subject of debate and will avoid putting in any ability that people generally agree belongs in its current tier. The voting period will last two days. In this voting period you will be voting on WHETHER OR NOT A ABILITY IS IN ITS PROPER TIER, not what tier the ability should be in. If the majority feels an ability is in the wrong tier, there will be another poll to decide what tier the ability should be in. After all abilities in the tier are voted on, we will move on to the next tier. And repeat the process until we have properly tiered all the abilities.

This is the best model I could come up with. If you have a suggestion for the model, or do not understand a part of this post PM me! Please do not flood this thread with questions and criticisms regarding this methodology. If there is question that many people have, I will clarify it in the OP. otherwise, I’ll message you back. If you have advice on how to improve the process, I may implement it for the next Tier we vote on. Our first tier, S tier, is pretty small and pretty straightforward, so it will make for a good test run for this system. The Nominations and Discussion for the S tier round begin now, and will end in approximately two days. Please try to keep the discussion on abilities within this tier and be sure to nominate abilities for voting. Happy Posting!

 

[pharaohcalvin]

NOMINATION

I am start out my nominatingthe ability Contrary. Contrary requires to much less to be part of a pokemon then the just the slap it onto a pokemon and be good feel that S tier is. The defination for a S tier ability is as following: S Tier- Abilities that are so good that the ability will often make otherwise unusable Pokémon viable. Contrary will not often make unuasble pokemon viable. Said pokemon needs to have many other features for it too work. For one, it needs an offensive move that actually lowers a stat for it to be more then a stat drop reduction, which isn't very game breaking what-so-ever. Then a pokemon needs around at least a base 75 offensive stat, and not to mention good speed, or bulk. A great look at Contrary was mentioned in the thread earlier about Breloom, it has Super Power and good offensive, however gaining Contrary really doesn't make it any better, it simply gives it another option. I'd say A tier at the most, as just too much depends on the pokemon for it to be S tier.

 

[Acritter]

NOMINATION: Contrary to B
Exactly what it says on the tin. I've presented my case before in this thread, as have many other people. Contrary requires a lot to be useful: one of a VERY small subset of moves and an appropriate stat spread. Even then, barring Draco Meteor every one of those moves faces OU Pokemon that are either immune to it (turning Contrary off completely) or else 4x resistant to it (making setup MUCH harder). On any other Pokemon, Contrary is at best gimmicky and at worst outright detrimental. Best case scenario, you manage to reverse an Intimidate drop (which requires they make a blatant misplay) or a lucky stat drop due to something like Shadow Ball. Worst case scenario, it turns your setup sweeper into a miserably bad Pokemon. The inability of Contrary to deliver anything at all to the vast majority of Pokemon and requirement of a specific moveset and stat spread to be useful clearly consigns Contrary to B-tier, as stated in the definitions of the tiers. The existence of Contrary Latios is not enough to justify the existence of every setup sweeper that Contrary maims.

 

[The QWAZ]

Nomination: Prankster to A
This may be a bit controversial but I really don't believe that making one pokemon UU where it would be right at the bottom of NU warrants S tier, sure sableye was vastly improved by this ability but what else is made by this ability; don't you dare say that prankster made thundurus broken as all it did was give it a fast nasty plot although it out-sped everything relevant back then anyway. Whismicott was OU due to its ability but now it is dwelling in depths of RU, why? Because people realized that prankster was only useful in some certain cases, as such it began a long and painful drop to where it currently resides, RU. Volbeat and Illumise never even got out of NU despite prankster and a buff to tail glow, which shows that an ability can only go so far in redeeming a pokemon.
Take this into consideration if prankster is so good, why doesn't it see more use? the only OU pokemon to carry it is Tornadus which prefers to go down the route of hurricane spam anyway. Simply put prankster is good, but not quite S tier material.
Thank you for reading this

 

[alexwolf]

Agreeing with Pharaocalvin and THE QWAZ 100%!

I also agree with Acritter a bit, but instantly breaking some pokes (Latios, Latias, Salamence, Hydreigon, Dragonite, Kyurem would all completely dominate with Scarf DM) and making some pokes from UU/RU/NU good OU mons (Manectric, Serperior, Sceptile, Arcanine) is too much to put into B tier imo.

I think the fact that some pokes are badly screwed by this ability (Lucario, Gyarados, Haxorus and many other set-up sweepers) is balanced by the fact that the ability also has the potential to break or greatly benefit the already mentioned pokes.

So discounting the major benefits and the major drawbacks of the ability (which are balanced out, imo), the ability to prevent Intimidate users, and turning any stat drop into stat up, while also making any defensive mon with Close Combat or Superpower significantly better (not good enough to use if if the poke is useless, but if the poke has enough things going for it, then the ability is the icing in the cake, which is the description of A tier if i am not wrong) are good enough to put Contrary in A tier.

 

[jg1198]

rock head and suction cups should without a doubt be in tier B, if not A, rock head gives easy pain free access to great moves like double edge and the terrifying head smash, and should be in tier B, because it makes pokemon that have the right move sets and stats absolute monsters. Go try rock polish relicanth in NU and have fun OHKO'ing everything in sight. On the other hand suction cups, on the basis of the ability alone, and not necessarily the pokemon that have said ability, should be tier A, as it allows a mon to set up and boost all it wants without fearing phazers, which is huge, because then your opp needs to actually stop and kill a boosted rampage, rather than survive one hit. imagine something similar to CM latias setting up and being unphazable.