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Abomasnow [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Mazz, Jan 22, 2013.

  1. Mazz

    Mazz Retired
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    Credit to zdrup15 for the original analysis!
    [pimg]465[/pimg]

    Abomasnow

    [Overview]

    <p>Abomasnow is the cornerstone of hail teams, as it's the only fully evolved Pokemon with access to Snow Warning, an ability that induces permanent hail, which most notably makes Blizzard's accuracy 100%. Abomasnow might seem like a gimmick at first due to its poor defensive typing and stats, but it has the potential to single-handedly beat all opposing weather starters, e.g. Politoed, Ninetales, Tyranitar, and Hippowdon.</p>

    <p>Since the beginning of BW, OU has become more dangerous for Abomasnow. Old threats, specifically Breloom, have become better equipped to punish it. However, Abomasnow is still viable as a weather starter in OU, as its unique typing offers four key resistances and its solid offensive movepool lets it check and hit a wide variety of threats such as Garchomp, Heatran, and Rotom-W.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Mixed
    move 1: Wood Hammer
    move 2: Ice Shard
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Protect / Earthquake
    item: Expert Belt
    ability: Snow Warning
    nature: Lonely
    evs: 252 Atk / 172 SpA / 84 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Abomasnow's flagship set in BW can wreak havoc on common weather teams due to its unparalleled coverage. Wood Hammer is Abomasnow's go-to STAB attack, flattening the many Ground-, Rock-, and Water-type Pokemon found in OU such as Hippowdon, Terrakion, and Rotom-W. Ice Shard allows Abomasnow to pick off weakened threats, patching up its middling Speed. Ice Shard also hits Dragon-type Pokemon hard, especially Dragonite, Salamence, and Garchomp due to their 4x weakness to Ice-type attacks. Hidden Power Fire allows Abomasnow to melt Steel-type foes, mainly Ferrothorn and Scizor, which could otherwise wall Abomasnow's STAB combination. The last moveslot is mostly preference-based, as Protect allows Abomasnow to scout its opponent, potentially locking a Pokemon carrying a Choice item into a move while racking up some extra hail damage, which can be the difference between an OHKO and a 2HKO. However, Earthquake can be used to heavily damage Fire-type Pokemon, like Heatran and Ninetales on the switch, two Pokemon that typically cause hail teams problems.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>With the given EV spread, Abomasnow's Attack is maximized; significant investment is run in Special Attack to OHKO Scizor with Hidden Power Fire. The EVs also allow Abomasnow to outspeed minimum Speed Politoed and Skarmory. In terms of moves, if you do opt for Earthquake over Protect, an alternate EV spread of 240 Atk / 120 SpA / 148 Spe is recommended, as it allows Abomasnow to outspeed specially defensive Heatran and decimate it with Earthquake. Blizzard can be run over Hidden Power Fire if your team is capable of dealing with Steel-types, as it gives Abomasnow a move that allows it to break through physical walls, such as Skarmory and Gliscor, and hit incoming Grass-, Dragon-, and Ground-types.</p>

    <p>Because of its typing, Fire- and Fighting-types are a huge bane to Abomasnow, making partners like Heatran, Jellicent, Gengar, and Reuniclus excellent choices. Jellicent and Heatran also have the advantage of checking faster variants of Scizor, which would typically outspeed and KO Abomasnow with Bug Bite or U-turn. Heatran also has access to Stealth Rock, making it harder for switch-ins to check Abomasnow. Jellicent can burn opposing Scizor, Terrakion, Jirachi, and other common physically-oriented checks to Abomasnow with Will-O-Wisp, giving Abomasnow more opportunities to switch in. These four Pokemon also work well on hail teams as a whole, checking opposing Heatran, Jirachi, Terrakion, and Scizor, some of the largest threats to the playstyle. Abomasnow's crippling weakness to Stealth Rock makes Starmie and Tentacruel solid partners to it. Access to Rapid Spin and having great type synergy with Abomasnow&mdash;both resist the two types that threaten Abomasnow&mdash;make them excellent partners. Pokemon that can take advantage of the hail brought about by Abomasnow's Snow Warning, such as Kyurem and Kyurem-B, also make excellent partners, as the ability to fire off 100% accurate Blizzards makes them extremely threatening.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Physical Attacker
    move 1: Ice Shard
    move 2: Wood Hammer / Earthquake
    move 3: Protect
    move 4: Leech Seed
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Snow Warning
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Abomasnow makes for a very adept physical attacker thanks to its powerful STAB Wood Hammer, priority Ice Shard, and surprise factor, as it's typically expected to be using Blizzard and other special attacks. Ice Shard is arguably the most useful move on this set, as it hits many opponents in OU hard, 2HKOing and even OHKOing a large number of threats. Here are some calculations to exemplify its usefulness:<p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Ice Shard vs. 0/0 Dragonite (Multiscale in-tact): 37.15% - 44.58%</li>
    <li>Ice Shard vs. 0/0 Dragonite (Multiscale broken): 74.3% - 89.16%</li>
    <li>Ice Shard vs. 0/0 Landorus: 78.99% - 94.04%</li>
    <li>Ice Shard vs. 200/ Def Landorus-T (With Intimidate): 35.77% - 43.36%</li>
    <li>Ice Shard vs. 200/244 Landorus-T (Without Intimidate): 53.11 - 62.87%</li>
    <li>Ice Shard vs. 0/0 Garchomp: 67.22% - 80.67%</li>
    <li>Ice Shard vs. 4/0 Latios: 45.69% - 54.3%</li>
    <li>Ice Shard vs. 0/0 Salamence: 83.38% - 99.09%</li>
    <li>Ice Shard vs. 252/184+ Gliscor: 41.8% - 50.84%</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Abomasnow's alternate STAB move, Wood Hammer, is equally as punishing, as its sheer power makes it difficult to switch into. It hits Water-, Ground-, and Rock-types, such as Jellicent, Gastrodon, and Tyranitar, hard, giving teammates more opportunities to sweep. Earthquake can be used over Wood Hammer, as it allows Abomasnow to hit Heatran and Ninetales switch-ins, as well as Electric-types, such as Jolteon and Raikou. Leech Seed provides Abomasnow with a somewhat reliable form of recovery, recovering 12.5% HP on top of what Leftovers recovers. It can also function as a sort of phazing move, as it discourages many opposing Pokemon from staying in for too long. Protect further bolsters Leech Seed's recovery effect, allowing Abomasnow to recover 37.5% of its HP after two turns (with Leftovers of course) while forcing the opponent to take more residual damage via hail and Leech Seed. Protect also allows Abomasnow to scout the opposition, locking opponents that carry a Choice item into a move.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The listed EV spread maximizes Abomasnow's Attack and bulk while giving it enough Speed to outrun minimum Speed Politoed. However, if you prefer an Abomasnow with more bulk, a spread of 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD can be utilized in order to switch in against Water- and Electric-type attacks. A Life Orb can be used over Leftovers if more power is desired, as it can make the difference between a 2HKO and an OHKO, most notably the KOes on Dragonite (with Multiscale broken) and Landorus with Ice Shard. Unfortunately, the lack of Leftovers recovery and additional recoil damage are unfavorable for Abomasnow.</p>

    <p>Because this variant lacks Hidden Power Fire, teammates such as Magnezone and Heatran are recommended, as they are capable of removing Steel-types, specifically Scizor, Skarmory, and Ferrothorn. Carrying Magnezone or Heatran also makes dealing with faster Scizor variants easier, as Choice Scarf and 252 Speed Scizor variants outpace and KO Abomasnow with U-turn or Bug Bite. Tentacruel and Heatran are able to deal with Fire-type threats and synergize well with Abomasnow. Tentacruel has access to Rapid Spin and Toxic Spikes, adding to the residual damage and removing Stealth Rock, giving Abomasnow an easier switch in. Pokemon that function well on hail teams, such as Reuniclus, Jellicent, and Kyurem, also make for solid partners, as they all benefit from Leech Seed's recovery and residual damage, while countering common Abomasnow checks, specifically Scizor and Terrakion.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Giga Drain can be used on the mixed and physical sets over Wood Hammer for extra recovery. However, it is not recommended, as Wood Hammer is just so much more powerful than Giga Drain. Focus Blast may also seem like a logical choice on the mixed set; however, its shaky accuracy makes it an unfavorable choice. Additionally, Earthquake and Hidden Power Fire have similar coverage to Focus Blast, making it redundant. Abomasnow does have access to Swords Dance, but due to its abysmal Speed stat, it cannot fully take advantage of a +2 boost to its Attack stat. Equipping Abomasnow with Choice Specs or Choice Band might seem like a wise idea, but they would require excess switching, which is not recommended for a Pokemon with a Stealth Rock weakness. The same is true for Choice Scarf Abomasnow, which is outsped by positive natured base 115s and other Choice Scarf Pokemon.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>The downside of Abomasnow's typing is its crippling weakness to Stealth Rock, which arguably functions as the most reliable check to Abomasnow. Fire-, Steel-, and Fighting-types, such as Volcarona, Metagross, and Terrakion, make for reliable checks to Abomasnow due to their super effective STAB moves. Opposing weather starters, such as Ninetales and Tyranitar, also make for solid checks to Abomasnow despite having to watch out for Earthquake and Wood Hammer, respectively. Jirachi, Scizor, and Terrakion function as the best checks to Abomasnow and hail teams, being able to heavily damage the opposition while resisting key attacking types, such as the STAB of opposing Ice-types. Bulky Steel-types, such as Jirachi, Skarmory, and Heatran, in addition to Chansey and Blissey, can wall Abomasnow effectively.</p>
  2. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I'm not sure about the set order at the moment, but you definitely need to add at least one physical set in here (probably band). Going physical is the best way for Abomasnow to beat opposing weather inducers, and to make good use of Ice Shard.

    I would also like to see subseed renamed "Leech Seed", and the possibility of Leech Seed + Protect added. I generally doubt that the set works that well any more, but this is what I remember from the last time it was good (gen 4 lol). Also, Wood Hammer performs the same function as focus punch, but with greatly reduced risk and more general usefulness. I would like to see the set look like this:

    Leech Seed
    Protect / Substitute
    Wood Hammer / Substitute
    Blizzard / Ice Shard

    I'm really not sure what those Defense evs are there for either. That's a lot of EVs to be running without any justification. Abomasnow is generally best at walling special attackers, especially Water, Grass and Electric types. Physical attackers tend to have too many rock/fighting moves.
  3. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    I'm not QC, but I have some to say on this analysis.

    I find it disturbing that there is no CB set on this analysis. I use CB Abomasnow and it is the tree's best way to fight weather starters, as well as make use out of Ice Shard. Also, CB Focus Punch is very useful for catching Heatran, a common switch-in to Papa Tree.

    As previously mentioned, Abomasnow's typing is only useful on the special side, tbh. It has to be able to take on Electric, Water, and Grass attacks. Most physical attackers hit is with super effective attacks. So I'm iffy on that EV spread.

    Anyways, yeah, all I gotta say on this.
  4. papai noel

    papai noel
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    I honestly wouldn't use the Mixed Attacker set as the one listed. Abomasnow has an awesome coverage and excelente STAB moves in Wood Hammer and Ice Shard. When I used the mixed attacker set I almost never used Blizzard due to Abomasnow's low Speed. The main difference between Blizzard and Wood Hammer is that the latter is better against the main weather inducers (Politoed and Tyranitar) and Abomasnow IS able to outspeed them. To me, the set should look like this:

    [SET]
    name: Mixed Attacker
    move 1: Wood Hammer
    move 2: Ice Shard
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Blizzard
    move 4: Protect / Earthquake
    item: Expert Belt
    ability: Snow Warning
    nature: Lonely
    evs: 240 Atk / 156 SpA / 112 Spe

    The given EVs allow you to KO Scizor with Hidden Power Fire after one turn of Hail damage, which you can easily get with Protect, while outspeeding CB Tyranitar with 100 EVs in Speed, which I believe is the most common benchmark. You also outspeed defensive Politoed with Speed EVs (some of them run to outspeed Skarmory and stuff) and Scizor. Wood Hammer and Ice Shard are a must on this set, mainly because the first one is Abomasnow's best STAB and the latter is a great weapon to revenge kill Landorus and Dragon-types. Hidden Power Fire for Scizor, but if you have something to deal with it you can always go for a strong, secondary STAB move. Protect is to get a KO on Scizor and to scout Choice-locked Pokemon, but you can use Earthquake to deal a nice amount of damage to Ninetales on the switch, Heatran, and Magnezone (I'd do an AC mention that if running Earthquake you can use a faster EV spread to outspeed Heatran).

    I also feel there needs to be a Choice Band set. Abomasnow's great coverage coupled with strong moves mean that it works great. And threatening every other weather inducer is awesome.
  5. Mazz

    Mazz Retired
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    I'll rearrange the set then. I ran some calculations, and the defense EVs allow Abomasnow to take a Waterfall from an unboosted Gyarados and a Volt Switch from a Jolteon and maintain its Substitute, but I'm still not incredibly fond of them. Something along the lines of 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD sound better? Or should their be some investment in Defense or another stat? I'll add a Choice Band set too. Thanks for the input!

    As I said above, EV spread is subject to change, and a CB set is in the making. Both should be amended here shortly. Thanks for the input!

    I like what you've got there for the mixed attacker, so I'll rearrange what I've got currently to match yours. And so it seems to be the consensus, a Choice Band set will be on its way. Thanks for the input!

    Still waiting on a set order, I'm just going off by what the usage stats from December had.
  6. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    I cant help but feel like you're simply carrying over UU Abomasnow to OU ;x

    Blizzard is AC material on mixed EB set - HP Fire is just too good.

    There should also be Delko's physical attacker set that's listed on-site

    The set entries should be re-ordered to mixed EB first, Delko's physical attacker 2nd, Leech Seed or CB 3rd / 4th, and Scarf last

    I suggest you test these sets in OU to accurately describe them in your analysis
  7. Mazz

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    Not sure what you exaclty mean by that. I'm actually yet to use it in UU. I've only used it in OU and Ubers .-.

    Noted.

    Also noted.

    Gotchya.

    I've expanded on them a bit after some testing. Being honest, the only set I haven't used is the Choice Band set, which is where I spent most of my testing. It might need to be expanded more in spots. Hopefully, those are mentioned before I being writing this up.

    Thanks for the help Pocket!
  8. Mazz

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    Bumping, as this seems to have been lost in the chaos of the other analyses.
  9. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    (For the mixed attacker)

    Just saying, this is speed creep. Tyranitar runs 100 Speed EVs to outspeed 24 Spe Skarmory. You either run enough to outspeed minimum Speed or max Speed in analyses. Pokemazter, I'd just suggest you change this to 252 Atk / 172 SpA / 84 Spe, to outspeed minimum Speed Politoed and Skarmory.
  10. Lavos Spawn

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    i feel as though the band and scarf sets are barely viable in this day and age...hell, even scarf abomasnow can't outspeed max speed timid starmie and other base 115s which is really pitiful imo. band is still super slow and honestly does not hit that hard, its only real draw is cb ice shard, which packs a punch, but ebelt is better in almost all scenarios as it allows for abomasnow to serve the utility attacker function that a hail offense team needs. i can't find any other flaws with the sets besides what shrang pointed out above me about the speed creep, definitely change that. however i believe that if you just move the choice sets to other options this will be ready for qc checks. getting it on-site should be a high priority.
  11. Mazz

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    I can do that. Thanks.

    Which is why I didn't have Choice Band here in the first place. I'll knock those two into OO and do the speed creep edit.

    Thanks you two.
  12. alexwolf

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    Totally agree with Lavos! To be blunt Choice Scarf Aboma is horrible. I can't think of a single good reason why i would want to handicap myself so much to use this set... You are alreay using Abomasnow, the worse and most difficult to use weather starter, yet you want to handicap yourself even more? Here what is wrong with this set:

    - It is a weather starter and a choice item user while being SR weak. Con number 1
    - It is a bad revenge killer and can't revenge kill even Starmie. Anything that boosts its Speed and even some things that don't (Breloom and Scizor) will walk all over it
    - Its power is lackluster. It isn't even decent. Its power is actually bad for a Choice Scarf user, meaning that it can't clean weakened teams and it can't even OHKO semi-bulky Pokemon with its STAB moves
    - Lacks the bulk and the resistances to switch into anything. Scald can burn it, Grass-types either OHKO it or wall it, and Electric moves are the only things that Abomasnow can hope to come into

    Bottom line Choice Scarf Abomasnow goes to OO. Not sure about Choice Band but i am leaning towards OO too as choice locked Abomasnow is just that bad.

    EDIT: ninja'd but whatever
  13. shrang

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    I guess Choice Scarf Abomasnow has that one little niche of being able to outspeed all the Chlorophyll sweepers (apart from Lilligant) without having to spend two turns changing the weather, and then switching to your revenge killer, and THEN attacking, in which time if your opponent has good prediction, they might have killed two Pokemon already. Abomasnow could kind of switch in on a revenge and then Blizzard the Venusaur or Sawsbuck o Shiftry or Jumpluff to high heaven without needing to go through all that other crap. Still, I guess that doesn't require a whole set, but if Scarf is to go into OO, it needs this bit of information (killing Chlorophyll abusers as well as maybe Stoutland and Sandslash) included.
  14. Mazz

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    Check.
  15. Dice

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    ~ slash earthquake with woodhammer on the phys atk'er set and remove seed bomb + put it in ac if you really don't like the recoil .

    ~ leech seed + protect is the set's main draw and ground + ice is stellar coverage . scald burns mean that abomasnow isn't going to check bulky waters anyways so wood hammer loses some of its main draw; that stab isn't /that/ bad to lose, so slash earthquake with it .

    ~ i think we should remove the "leech seed" set; max spdef is just asinine in general since you have basically no power and even tyranitar and hippowdon can switch in on you; lol.

    ~ the speed ev's on the phys. atker set seem really random. they hit 172 or 173... that's just bad speed creep. use 188 HP / 252 Atk / 56 SpD / 12 Spe to outspeed min speed ttar and have a lefties # . mention you can move the spd ev's to def in ac if you want, but you're mainly going to be taking special attacks (think surf, ice beam, thunderbolt)

    ~ once i try to convince qc to remove leech seed i'll approve this .

    900 posts!
  16. PK Gaming

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    Earthquake should be the only move option on the 4th slot of the Physical Attacker set, and Leech Seed should be moved down to AC. Leech Seed might recover recoil damage, but I don't think its worth being utterly walled by Heatran or missing the chance to KO Ninetales switch ins.

    I'm not sure Earthquake should be slashed after Protect on the mixed attacker set. Is scouting/racking up hail damage really worth not being able to heavily damage Heatran, Steel-types and Ninetales? (Being able to beat opposing weather starters is one of the biggest draws to using Mixed Abomasnow imo).

    Don't forget to implement everything that Brii suggested. We'll look into the Leech Seed set to see if its viable in OU.
  17. shrang

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    On the physical attacker set:

    What is "most Tyranitar and Jellicent"? You're running 173 Speed. What is that outspeeding? You're speed creeping again. We either put speed to outspeeding either minimum or maximum on analyses. Anything else is the choice of the user. Please change that to either 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe (preferred, to outspeed min Speed Politoed) or 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe (to outspeed min Speed Tyranitar).
  18. Mazz

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    Wow I totally missed this. I'll get those done right away.

    I'll shuffle those around then. Thanks you two!

    EDIT: Went ahead and used the spread given by Shrang to outspeed min toed. Bri's looked a bit too, erm, scattered, while shrang's is/resembles what the spread used to be (can't remember)
  19. Cygnis

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    You should also have expert belt slashed with Leftovers not AC. Expert Belt lets you turn those annoying un-KOs into OHKOs which means you won't have to run annoying Mamoswine and save a team slot. Choice Band should also not get the "too slow" only in OO. Wood Hammer OHKOs Politoed which is awesome because rain lets freaking stuff like Tornadus sweep teams with Specs Hurricanes and lets Toxicroak get amazing recovery. Choice Band shouldn't be getting too much respect because Wood Hammer recoil sucks and needs Wish Support and the slow speed with SR, its in OO for a reason. It can't even outspeed Starmie, bullcrap, Abomasnow with Choice sucks today. Go with E-Belt or SubSeed. Also for the Leech Seed AC, add in Focus Punch since Ice Shard / Blizzard and a strong fighting-type move have amazing coverage together and letting it run a SubPunchSeed Kill set (well, don't write that, just saying). Also you should say the only weather starter to have a STAB priority or usable priority move because Ninetales has Quick Attack. Nice analysis, I would give this a QC Approve but I am not a QC checker.
  20. Mazz

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    Made mention of Expert Belt a while ago. Bumping this.
  21. ginganinja

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    O.k, can I ask that you remove Leech Seed Abomasnow (the set). Leech Seed is a good move on Abomasnow, but whenever I used a hail team, I would usually default to Delkos set and spread (the Physical Attacker) since Leech Seed + Protect is all you need, and I really dislike Substitute on a SR weak mon that you need alive to win a weather war. Without attack investment you did fuck all in damage as well which means pretty much anything could switch in and take away momentum which wasn't very nice. So please remove Leech Seed set in favour of the Physical Attacker set.

    However, I would like you to mention in the AC of the Physical Attacker set, a bulky EV spread (like the one used on the Leech Seed set) because occasionally, running that amount of special bulk is neat if you want to be able to handle water types and the like a little better. Its not quite set worthy imo (and the set in question is similar enough to Physical Attacker anyway) so it fits in nicely in the AC, giving players the option of customising Abomasnow's EV spread.

    Working on the assumption that this will not be a problem and that it will be carried out as I hope....

    [qc]1/3[/qc]

    Lets get this show on the road.
  22. Mazz

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    Finally. Thanks and I'll get those done right away.
  23. Dice

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    Just AC mention Expert Belt on the phys attacker set. Lefties + Leech Seed is far too important.

    This looks good and write up ready.

    [Qc]2/3[/qc]
  24. Mazz

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    Thanks Bri! Will do!
  25. Mazz

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    Bumping. Need a 3rd QC check.

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