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About The "Current" System

Discussion in 'Archives' started by Colonel M, Feb 5, 2010.

?

Choose wisely

  1. Way it is now (cover strategy and TO)

    13 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. Way it was before (truncated paragraph, cover everything else)

    26 vote(s)
    66.7%
Thread Status:
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  1. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Alright, so we had problems with people agreeing / disagreeing on two different sides of the coin. I had people bring up complaints in both areas, so I believe it is better to find a solution with a combination of a discussion AND the poll helping to reflect that (or at least hoping it will).

    Option 1 - The Way it is Now

    Show Hide
    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Explosion
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice / Dragon Pulse
    nature: Naive / Rash
    item: Choice Scarf
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With a Choice Scarf, Heatran reaches a maximum Speed of 417, allowing it to outspeed all Pokemon in OU bar Ninjask. This allows it to act as one of the most effective revenge killers in the OU metagame, checking Pokemon such as Adamant Dragon Dance Gyarados and Swords Dance Lucario.</p>

    <p>Fire Blast is Heatran's main STAB move, hitting hard off of Heatran's impressive 359 Special Attack. Flamethrower is an option over Fire Blast due to its higher accuracy, but the difference is often noticeable. Earth Power allows Heatran to hit opposing fire-types, including other Heatran. Explosion allows Heatran to destroy Blissey and Latias eager to switch into its Fire Blast or Earth Power. The last move depends on what you're trying to revenge. Dragon Pulse allows Heatran to hit Kingdra and Salamence hard without Exploding, while Hidden Power Grass does the same for Swampert and other Water-types. Hidden Power Ice can guarantee the kill on Salamence, but has little use outside of that.</p>

    <p>A Modest or Rash nature can give Heatran extra punch on its attacks, but prevents it from outspeeding Adamant Gyarados and Heracross, as well as tying with opposing Scarfed Heatran.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The choice between Fire Blast and Flamethrower can be a difficult one. While Fire Blast's 85% accuracy can definitely be off-putting, its improved power is vital to the success of this set. Fire Blast guarantees a 2HKO against Naive Salamence after Stealth Rock, which prevents Salamence from switching into Scarf Heatran and threatening it with Earthquake. Flamethrower, on the other hand, deals 37.2% maximum to Salamence, which is never a 2HKO, even with Stealth Rock. Flamethrower also prevents Heatran from OHKOing 252 HP Celebi, which allows Celebi to potentially OHKO back with an Earth Power. Fire Blast, on the other hand, deals 97% minimum, which is likely to OHKO even without Stealth Rock. Overheat is an option as well, but the -2 Special Attack can make Heatran setup fodder for anything switching in afterwards.</p>

    <p>This set has trouble against Water-types and Blissey, so Pokémon that can take down both are effective options for this set. Celebi covers Heatran's weaknesses perfectly and can take down most Water-types with a STAB Grass Knot or Leaf Storm. Specifically, Celebi works best at countering Gyarados, which can set up on Heatran locked into Choice Scarf. Additionally, Heatran also covers Celebi's weaknesses. Scizor is another excellent teammate to Heatran, providing teams with extra insurance against Dragon Dance Salamence which might have set up on Heatran; not only that, but Scizor is great at luring Fire-type attacks which activate Heatran's Flash Fire ability. Latias, a common counter to Heatran, will also fall to Scizor's U-turn or Pursuit. Finally, Scizor can also dispose of Blissey with Superpower if you are unable to KO it with Heatran.</p>


    Option 2 - The Way it was Before

    Show Hide
    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Explosion
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice / Dragon Pulse
    nature: Naive / Rash
    item: Choice Scarf
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>The set's main intention is to act as a revenge killer. With a Choice Scarf, Heatran obtains 417 Speed, which surpasses most Pokemon that don't use Choice Scarf and random Pokemon such as Adamant Gyarados with a Dragon Dance under its belt. Fire Blast and Earth Power has decent coverage; only being resisted by Pokemon such as Gyarados and Salamence. Choosing between Hidden Powers is if you fear Swampert or Salamence. The unfortunate news is Scarf Heatran misses out on a Dragon Dance Salamence; however, it isn't a bad option considering it prevents other variants of Salamence from denting the team. After Heatran has expired much of its use or if a Pokemon such as Blissey is giving the team trouble, simply use Explosion. If Hidden Power isn't striking and you prefer to kill both Salamence and Kingdra with one stone, Dragon Pulse accomplishes that. Flamethrower can be favored over Fire Blast if PP and accuracy are of concern.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>When equipped with a Choice Scarf, Heatran can effectively take on the role of revenge killer, outpacing dangerous threats such as Lucario, Salamence, and neutral-natured Gyarados. Heatran reaches a maximum Speed stat of 417 when wielding Choice Scarf, outspeeding all Pokémon in OU, bar Ninjask.<p>

    <p>Fire Blast serves as Heatran's main STAB move, allowing it to deal a ridiculous amount of damage to anything that doesn't resist it. Pokémon such as Naive Salamence risk being 2HKOed by Fire Blast due to Heatran's impressive Special Attack stat of 359. Flamethrower is an option over Fire Blast if you prefer accuracy over power, but it should be noted that the power difference is evident if you opt for Flamethrower. Earth Power is necessary on this set because it provides Heatran with a way of disposing of other Fire-types, specifically opposing Heatran. Explosion fills the third slot, giving Heatran an effective way of eliminating Blissey and Latias who dare to switch in. For the last slot, Dragon Pulse, Hidden Power Grass, and Hidden Power Ice are all decent options. Dragon Pulse allows Heatran to revenge kill Salamence and Kingdra without having to resort to Explosion, while Hidden Power Grass is useful in wearing down Water-types who can otherwise wall you. Finally, Hidden Power Ice, although the least recommended option out of the three, is useful in guaranteeing the kill on Salamence. On an additional note, Overheat is an option over Fire Blast, but Fire Blast is the preferred option as it deals more damage over two turns, outweighing the benefits of 5% increased accuracy.</p>

    <p>A Modest or Rash nature can be considered if you feel the extra power is more beneficial to your team, but you will miss out on outpacing Adamant Gyarados, Adamant Heracross, and at least tying with opposing Scarfed Heatran.</p>

    <p>This set has trouble against Water-types and Blissey, so Pokémon that can take down both are effective options for this set. Celebi covers Heatran's weaknesses perfectly and can take down most Water-types with a STAB Grass Knot or Leaf Storm. Specifically, Celebi works best at countering Gyarados, which can set up on Heatran locked into Choice Scarf. Additionally, Heatran also covers Celebi's weaknesses. Scizor is another excellent teammate to Heatran, providing teams with extra insurance against Dragon Dance Salamence which might have set up on Heatran; not only that, but Scizor is great at luring Fire-type attacks which activate Heatran's Flash Fire ability. Latias, a common counter to Heatran, will also fall to Scizor's U-turn or Pursuit. Finally, Scizor can also dispose of Blissey with Superpower if you are unable to KO it with Heatran.</p>

    I think most that were involved with C&C know what both look like. The way it is now, just see Flygon thread for it. The second option had the truncated paragraphs within it.

    I want to make sure that everyone that at least participates in C&C votes. I'm keeping the votes hidden to prevent bandwaggoning as much as possible.
  2. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
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    I don't know if we're allowed to post our opinions or not, seeing as he's keeping the votes hidden, but the thread isn't closed so... here it goes!

    Personally, I think Option 2 makes the most sense, and will look the most clean on site. Just having a quick summary of what the set does, so people can decide if they're interested or not is a great way of presenting things. If they're interested, they can click "more" and learn the more intricate details about the set, and if not, they can just scroll down to the next one. Not only does this literally make things look more "concise" than Option 1, but it is the more user friendly of the two. By just hiding the TO section, some sets can still come off as a "wall of text" and discourage users from even looking into it.

    Just my two cents.
  3. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    The point of hiding part of the text is to make the analysis more accessible to most users, the semi-casual public who want to be able to get a general idea about a Pokemon without having to wade through paragraph after paragraph of text, while retaining the highly detailed and in depth information that some battlers look for. Seeing a huge wall of text puts off even many hardened contributors, imagine what the average noob who is just getting into Pokemon would think of this (or even the example given in the OP, considering there is very large number of analysis you need to read to have an idea of every major threat in a metagame), even with the TO paragraph hidden.

    Hiding just the TO paragraph is something, but the difference between seeing one short paragraph with the essential info you need about a Pokemon and 2-4 (sometimes more) often very long paragraphs with excessive detail will turn many new players off from reading analysis. I remember when I started Pokemon I read every DP analysis on Smogon, it took a while but not more than a week or two of non intensive reading. These days the same task would be something very few new people would get far with, even if they just looked at OUs and ignored the many viable non-OU threats.

    We lose no information by hiding the details, any player who wishes to know more about a specific set can get to it with a single extra click. In return, we make the important information only, quick overview of what a set can do (without any of the details that smart players can mostly work out for themselves and newer players probably don't want) that I am sure most players reading an analysis are looking for vastly more approachable.


    If that was tl;dr (oh the irony), then Option 2. We lose no info, info more accessible, more useful for the general public, more people likely to read analysis, all good stuff.
  4. Phantom_IV

    Phantom_IV

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    Just posting to say that I believe the posted paragraphs bias the readers slightly. Each is riddled with minor errors and redundancies. I found about five in my first read. Depending on what a contributor sees in the example analyses, he might be influenced to vote one way or another.

    I would suggest to replace the heatran paragraphs in the OP with a summary of each of the options, with an argument for/against each.
  5. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    I left this open so others can weigh in their opinions and reasons.
    I apologize for this if you feel that I am doing this incorrectly, but I believe that showing the examples would help illustrate the advantages and disadvantages from a personal standpoint. In other words: I felt there was little reason to post advantages and disadvantages because it could be interpreted differently. Hence, I felt showing the examples were better.

    If, however, you and others would like me to state the advantages and disadvantages, I have no issue doing so.
  6. Xia

    Xia aka Lone Gansel
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    It's not the fact that you've posted an example and not advantages and disadvantages, but the fact that your example isn't "polished" (take a look at the second example's additional comments tags for a glaring example). Correct me if I'm wrong, Phantom IV.

    Oh, and I personally feel that the way it was before was much more logical. Why wouldn't you read the condensed analysis first before going in-depth? Besides that, truncating the more detailed comments helps make the page appear less cluttered, since (iirc) they show up like our hide tags do in the forums.

    CM EDIT: Okay okay I fixed it man, sorry. =(

    Xia Edit: Oh, it didn't bother me. I was just explaining what Phantom IV was saying. No worries. =]
  7. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Okay, so I have 8 votes for the first option and 17 for the second. Is there anyone else that wants to be heard in this crowd?
  8. Theorymon

    Theorymon AHHHH REAL GOOMBAS!
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  9. RBG

    RBG It feels like a perfect night to dress up like hipsters
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    [11:43am] Sarenji: before i make a coherent opinion
    [11:43am] Sarenji: what is the point of set comments?
    [11:44am] Sarenji: i mean what is the purpose?
    [11:44am] Theorymon: thats what I was aiming for! it seems like people have different veiws on this Sarenji
    [11:45am] RB-Golbat: the first paragraph is supposed to be a cliff notes version of why to use this set
    [11:45am] RB-Golbat: the additional comments should be how to use it and example team mate options
    [11:45am] RB-Golbat: imo
    [11:46am] Theorymon: RB, I could be reading you wrong, but that sounds like a combination of options 1 & 2
    [11:46am] RB-Golbat: so it may be
    [11:46am] Theorymon: you see, with the cliff notes, they are just additions. the aditional comments are actually the long version
    [11:46am] RB-Golbat: i am just viewing how i think it should be
    [11:47am] Theorymon: I think you should post that RB, I am curious about this idea
  10. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
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    Would it be hard to implement both? If it's not, why couldn't we just do that?

    Just be like:

    Full set comments >>>
    And then later on in the set comments:
    Team Options (and possibly other stuff) >>>
  11. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    I kind of thought it went more with Example 2, but I could be misinterpreting.
  12. Sarenji

    Sarenji leaf-faced
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    I couldn't make an opinion without a clear purpose for set comments. In my eye, the purpose was threefold: how to play the set, team options, and specific statistics like damage calculations. Maybe set-specific move options too. In my opinion, everything except "how to play the set" should be hidden.

    However, I have a problem with "how to play the set." Most of the "how to plays" are long and can be more concise. Get rid of anything that isn't how to play the set. Also, people should write with a more active voice. For example, in the Salamence analysis, most people write "how Salamence should be played," but I think analyses would be improved if people wrote "how Salamence is played."

    It's the subtle but important difference between:

    Salamence finds an easy time switching into resisted attacks, allowing it to begin firing off Draco Meteors at the opponent.

    and

    Salamence switches easily into resisted attacks, and fires off Draco Meteors.

    Also do we have to explain that Roost makes Salamence live longer? I think we can cut down on some move explanations.

    In short, a compromise between option 1 and 2.
  13. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Truncated paragraphs are retarded. They're redundant, not informative enough, and aren't more efficient than just separating the first two paragraphs and moving their information into the "additional comments" area.

    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/milotic

    Every analysis should look like this one. You can put as much "extra information" as you want in the additional comments, but there's no reason to just do some kind of uninformative mini-summary which will end up being a waste of time and effort.
  14. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    So I want more comments regarding what SDS's example is like. Ignore the poll on this.
  15. whistle

    whistle
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    I agree with the premise of SDS's argument. Writing *only* a summary for a set and having the entire old set comments below really seems like a quick visual band-aid that doesn't (a) address the problem of concision nor does it (b) actually give much useful information.

    Assuming the "first two paragraphs" of an analysis describe how it works and what moves to use, I think that is exactly what our target audience wants when they look at a Pokemon's analysis. Of course, if there are detailed pros and cons to choosing certain moves, that doesn't need to be mentioned in the "at a glance" but this is basically just a judgment call on the part of the analysis writer.

    Another problem the other option presents is redundancy -- for every set that I've written a concise paragraph, I've found myself rewriting / restructuring non insignificant portions of the set comments so that the logical flow across the summary / extended parts isn't interrupted (I think I've sort of settled on SDS's method unconsciously now that I think about it). Having summaries makes it too hard to draw a balance between not enough information (which makes the summary pointless) and too much information (which results in massive redundancy aka what we are trying to get rid of in the first place). I think that method inevitably causes net longer analyses while not really having any tangible benefits.

    edit: the above arguments apply perfectly to sweeper Pokemon, but not as perfectly to support Pokemon (the best example I can think of is Philip's rendition of the new concise standards on his Trapper Heatran writeup). However, I think the structure works just as well for both -- sweeper set comments might want to focus more on the attacks and maybe include some basic cost + benefit analysis in terms of picking one move over another (such as Stone Edge vs Crunch on Lucario), while support Pokemon writeups would probably appreciate a relatively larger portion discussing how to use the set.
  16. DJXO9

    DJXO9

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    I think what this comes out to is how much detail is involved. To me, it seems as though with a smaller analysis like the Milotic SDS posted, splitting up the team comments from the other comments seems to be the way to go. If the analysis is a lot bigger, the truncated paragraph would be better.

    Personally, I like the idea of the truncated paragraphs. It gives the best of both worlds. If a person doesn't want the intimidating Theorymon style analyses, they just read the little paragraph about the general purpose of the set. If they want to really dive into it, then go check out the detailed comments.
  17. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    I don't think that the truncated paragraphs are "retarded" by any stretch of the imagination, and as for them being "redundant" having a summery of the information is often very useful if not everyone is expected to read the entire analysis. Yes it may result in a small amount of information being reiterated, but that's the whole point of a summery. To give you a summarized version of the information in the rest of a document. The possibility of having marginally longer net analyses is counterbalanced by having significantly shorter summaries showing at the start.

    SDS's example seems very similar to Option 1, hiding the TO and also EVs/Pokemon that provide competition bits but leaving everything else. For some analysis this may not be a problem, for some Pokemon it's possible to fit all of the wanted "this is why these moves were chosen, this is how you use it, this is why it's good" into a paragraph or two short enough to not be intimidating. However, even in the example he gives there are certain sets which are pushing the limit of how many words you can put before you start putting some people off. For many of the longer analysis just hiding those later sections would still leave a wall of text facing potential readers, and even if all of the information is concise and relevant it's still a wall of text.

    The fact is that not all people want to wade through paragraph after paragraph of text going into detail of why each move was chosen. Many just want an idea of how the set works, and how useful it is. You may call that uninformative, I call it having essential information only. I think that rather than thinking that they are lazy and not catering for them, we should provide a quick overview of each set saying just the bare minimum required. Short enough so that your average noob just getting into Pokemon will read it, and if they are interested hit the "more" button. And short enough so your average decent player who really does not need to be told that "Ice Beam is the staple coverage move for Water-type Pokémon, providing coverage against Grass-types and Altaria." can get a quick idea of the set's functionality, without having to read through things they already know (Water Pokemon generally use Ice to beat Grass and Dragon Pokes).

    The problem with saying that info about move choices and general set functionality should not be hidden and just leaving it up to the writers is that like with overall analysis length it tends to drift towards longer and longer. Maybe if there were quite strict guidelines on length of those paragraphs it would be workable, but otherwise I just see us getting back into the problems of ridiculously long analysis. Even now many analysis already have insane depth of information on move choices (which generally goes in the first two paragraphs), often vastly more than most players would want.

    Lets be clear, having extra information is good. But if it comes at the cost of making the information that is actually needed by players less accessible, then hiding it behind a single click makes total sense.
  18. whistle

    whistle
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    I think the second option should be used more as a rough set of guidelines for what should be included in the summaries rather than as a definite rule that says you *must* take the first two paragraphs of a traditional analysis and leave it immediately visible. I see it as a compromise between the "too much" information of the current analyses (which sometimes go into massive amounts of detail on move choice) and what I feel is "not enough" with just a truncated paragraph.

    Obviously it is subjective to some degree, but if the guideline is "spend around one sentence talking about each move" I'm not really sure how someone can spin that into a massive paragraph. Analyses writers are smart; if there is a large amount of information that ordinarily fits in the first two paragraphs, they can add the basics in the summary and put the detailed information in the additional information section (of course if there is too much text there, it becomes a question of ordinary concision and not summaries).

    Honestly if you want to summarize a set without talking about one of these, you are going to have a summary that is literally two sentences long. This is also partially aesthetics... I don't know if it's just me but seeing a set with comments less than an inch long (roughly, anyways) just does NOT look right. I guess it just comes down to what you think "basic enough" is for the analyses, and I think that without basic information on how the set is played (which almost always includes the moveset) there is just not enough to talk about.

    Some more people should give their input...!
  19. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
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    Well, if you insist!

    I gotta say, I disagree w/ my bros on this one (nothing personal, obviously). The whole purpose of the concise project was to make things more viewer-friendly. Yes, technically each analysis will become slightly longer when you add a summary intro paragraph, due to repetitiveness, but think about the big picture here; with short summary paragraphs, people will be saving time overall, because they can read and dismiss sets more rapidly, and get to a set that actually interests them more quickly. Also, making a guideline such as "only one sentence per optional move" can be very limiting on certain sets, whose additional moves need a good amount of explanation to cover important features. For instance, in my HeaTrap set, Taunt cannot be summarized within one sentence, because it functions differently when paired with certain other moves. This is why adding optional moves to the set comments can really be a dangerous decision, as it could bring you back to square one with the tl;dr sets.

    I mean, I can see why some might think Option 1 is the superior method of doing things, but in terms of making this "viewer-friendly," I really think Option 2 is the way to go still.
  20. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Also, I re-wrote "Option 1", which was never mentioned. If you look at that, there is a fair bit of detail to go into regarding Fire Blast versus Flamethrower, and while that is touched on in the non-hidden sentence, there is a detailed paragraph in the Additional Comments that covers that. Nothing says that you're not allowed to go into "how this works" in the additional comments- in fact, that is EXACTLY what they're meant for. You just want to be sure to be as concise as possible in the opening paragraphs.

    Also, regarding the Sweeper vs. Support issue, I can try and take a support set and concise it according to "my guidelines" to give you a better idea of what I mean.

    EDIT: Comparing the "original" Choice Scarf Heatran and the new one that I wrote for this thread.

    Current Heatran:
    Show Hide
    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Explosion
    move 4: Dragon Pulse / Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice
    item: Choice Scarf
    nature: Naive / Rash
    evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>When equipped with a Choice Scarf, Heatran can effectively take on the role of revenge killer, outpacing dangerous threats such as Lucario, Salamence, and neutral-natured Gyarados. Heatran reaches a maximum Speed stat of 417 when wielding Choice Scarf, outspeeding all Pokémon in OU, bar Ninjask.<p>

    <p>Fire Blast serves as Heatran's main STAB move, allowing it to deal a ridiculous amount of damage to anything that doesn't resist it. Pokémon such as Naive Salamence risk being 2HKOed by Fire Blast due to Heatran's impressive Special Attack stat of 359. Flamethrower is an option over Fire Blast if you prefer accuracy over power, but it should be noted that the power difference is evident if you opt for Flamethrower. Earth Power is necessary on this set because it provides Heatran with a way of disposing of other Fire-types, specifically opposing Heatran. Explosion fills the third slot, giving Heatran an effective way of eliminating Blissey and Latias who dare to switch in. For the last slot, Dragon Pulse, Hidden Power Grass, and Hidden Power Ice are all decent options. Dragon Pulse allows Heatran to revenge kill Salamence and Kingdra without having to resort to Explosion, while Hidden Power Grass is useful in wearing down Water-types who can otherwise wall you. Finally, Hidden Power Ice, although the least recommended option out of the three, is useful in guaranteeing the kill on Salamence. On an additional note, Overheat is an option over Fire Blast, but Fire Blast is the preferred option as it deals more damage over two turns, outweighing the benefits of 5% increased accuracy.</p>

    <p>A Modest or Rash nature can be considered if you feel the extra power is more beneficial to your team, but you will miss out on outpacing Adamant Gyarados, Adamant Heracross, and at least tying with opposing Scarfed Heatran.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This set has trouble against Water-types and Blissey, so Pokémon that can take down both are effective options for this set. Celebi covers Heatran's weaknesses perfectly and can take down most Water-types with a STAB Grass Knot or Leaf Storm. Specifically, Celebi works best at countering Gyarados, which can set up on Heatran locked into Choice Scarf. Additionally, Heatran also covers Celebi's weaknesses. Scizor is another excellent teammate to Heatran, providing teams with extra insurance against Dragon Dance Salamence which might have set up on Heatran; not only that, but Scizor is great at luring Fire-type attacks which activate Heatran's Flash Fire ability. Latias, a common counter to Heatran, will also fall to Scizor's U-turn or Pursuit. Finally, Scizor can also dispose of Blissey with Superpower if you are unable to KO it with Heatran.</p>


    Concise Heatran:

    Show Hide
    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Fire Blast / Flamethrower
    move 2: Earth Power
    move 3: Explosion
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Ice / Dragon Pulse
    nature: Naive / Rash
    item: Choice Scarf
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With a Choice Scarf, Heatran reaches a maximum Speed of 417, allowing it to outspeed all Pokemon in OU bar Ninjask. This allows it to act as one of the most effective revenge killers in the OU metagame, checking Pokemon such as Adamant Dragon Dance Gyarados and Swords Dance Lucario.</p>

    <p>Fire Blast is Heatran's main STAB move, hitting hard off of Heatran's impressive 359 Special Attack. Flamethrower is an option over Fire Blast due to its higher accuracy, but the difference is often noticeable. Earth Power allows Heatran to hit opposing fire-types, including other Heatran. Explosion allows Heatran to destroy Blissey and Latias eager to switch into its Fire Blast or Earth Power. The last move depends on what you're trying to revenge. Dragon Pulse allows Heatran to hit Kingdra and Salamence hard without Exploding, while Hidden Power Grass does the same for Swampert and other Water-types. Hidden Power Ice can guarantee the kill on Salamence, but has little use outside of that.</p>

    <p>A Modest or Rash nature can give Heatran extra punch on its attacks, but prevents it from outspeeding Adamant Gyarados and Heracross, as well as tying with opposing Scarfed Heatran.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The choice between Fire Blast and Flamethrower can be a difficult one. While Fire Blast's 85% accuracy can definitely be off-putting, its improved power is vital to the success of this set. Fire Blast guarantees a 2HKO against Naive Salamence after Stealth Rock, which prevents Salamence from switching into Scarf Heatran and threatening it with Earthquake. Flamethrower, on the other hand, deals 37.2% maximum to Salamence, which is never a 2HKO, even with Stealth Rock. Flamethrower also prevents Heatran from OHKOing 252 HP Celebi, which allows Celebi to potentially OHKO back with an Earth Power. Fire Blast, on the other hand, deals 97% minimum, which is likely to OHKO even without Stealth Rock. Overheat is an option as well, but the -2 Special Attack can make Heatran setup fodder for anything switching in afterwards.</p>

    <p>This set has trouble against Water-types and Blissey, so Pokémon that can take down both are effective options for this set. Celebi covers Heatran's weaknesses perfectly and can take down most Water-types with a STAB Grass Knot or Leaf Storm. Specifically, Celebi works best at countering Gyarados, which can set up on Heatran locked into Choice Scarf. Additionally, Heatran also covers Celebi's weaknesses. Scizor is another excellent teammate to Heatran, providing teams with extra insurance against Dragon Dance Salamence which might have set up on Heatran; not only that, but Scizor is great at luring Fire-type attacks which activate Heatran's Flash Fire ability. Latias, a common counter to Heatran, will also fall to Scizor's U-turn or Pursuit. Finally, Scizor can also dispose of Blissey with Superpower if you are unable to KO it with Heatran.</p>


    Note that between the two, the non-hidden section has the same detail, but much of the fluff cut. However, all of the "detail" between the most important decision on the set, Fire Blast versus Flamethrower, is covered in detail in the "additional comments" far better than it could be in the actual area.

    Not only is this MORE usable than the original (current) analysis, it is also more detailed. "Option 2" is neither.
  21. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I was under the impression that the overall goal of these paragraphs was to make it possible for people to quickly skim sets for important information and not being forced into reading every detail of an analysis to get relatively simple but important information. A summary paragraph or two really fulfills this purpose by "just" having the basic concepts / prototype analysis there for people. All the "needed" info is more easily accessed this way.

    To avoid repeating the same reason, I'll just say that I agree with Phillip and eric. The paragraph(s) is(are) definitely serving a purpose. We over-complicate things anyway, in my opinion.
  22. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Personally I feel it is necessary to either account for anybody who may choose to read Smogon's analyses, or else define a select group of people who these analyses are aimed at (eg. new players, or seasoned veterans) - the second option of which I find is really not a good option at all, not only because it puts a stranglehold on the direction we write these analyses, but also because it will, in my opinion, leave far more people dissatisfied than trying to account for all likely audiences.

    Thus, I tend to feel that the more information there is, the better (this is irrelevant, but bear with me) as more regular players are likely to grasp the way that a set plays by only skimreading any analysis, so I will most account for the new players, as they are both the most difficult to write for and the most difficult to determine preferences for, as that player base is so comparatively wide. In my mind I can divide them into:

    a) Those that require a great deal of explanation and information to grasp exactly what the point of the set is (and yes, that means explaining why certain moves are on the set and other seemingly obvious topics)
    b) Those who cannot honestly be bothered to read, in depth, a long analysis

    Truncated paragraphs are an ideal solution to this problem, and account for both. However, while I am content with the 'option 2', I cannot help feeling quietly disconcerted by the 'option 1' approach for a number of reasons. Firstly, if I set aside the idea of repetitiveness for a second, I think that the biggest danger here is deciding where to toe the line in terms of where the analysis is split into 'SC' and 'AC', as not all analyses are the same. Of course, this could be remedied by a new policy, but I would dislike having to group paragraphs in this way, especially if there isn't much to say in either area.

    Other concerns? It seems a lot to me that it may be just a simple offshoot of Project Concise (the original), where we are again just removing information that seems 'redundant' and eventually collapse into the inevitable chaos where everybody is trying to get their word count for every analysis under 500, regardless of what information has to be removed to do it. It just seems a lot like a waste of time. I would also call into issue the structure in question, as if there are (say) two paragraphs detailing moves and EVs visible, and two paragraphs about Team Options and usage hidden, the whole thing is put at the same pace, which gives a skim-reader a definite sense of incompleteness and uncertainty upon reading (I've been there). If you write an essay, then cover up the second half, and only read the first part, it does seem indescribably odd.

    In summary, then, the standard truncated paragraphs are, in my opinion, perfectly good as long as we keep the option for those that are interested of reading the detailed comments, especially if we are banking on one being interested in scrolling down the sets for information. If we are aiming to match the intelligence of the analysis with the intelligence of the reader (broadly speaking, you understand), then truncated paragraphs are a great way to get the best of both worlds. An analysis that is cut in two and has the bottom half buried underground is not only directed at only one audience, but also a strange way of viewing information.

    That's all I have to say for now.
  23. Reflect Suicune

    Reflect Suicune

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    I don't think I've ever been in stronger agreement than I am now, with SDS, even down to the Milotic example he gave.

    The first option is decent, but too much information is available immediately.

    The second option at first glace looks better, but as stated, truncated paragraphs are very anti-productive, anti-efficient, and overrall don't really accomplish much.

    I also agree with Whistle, there are issues with minimum length. However, we all know that few writers in this community struggle to meet the minimum requirements, so there really is no point in going on about that.

    I am personally very much against excessive information, redundancy, and other such things when it comes to analyses. There is a fine line between thorough and excessive. Some writers may forget that most of the time, whatever they are taking the time to explain already has its own analysis somewhere else.

    I know I have already stressed my agreement, but I don't think I could explain or demonstrate anything that the Milotic analysis does not explain better. It is indeed a perfect example of what EVERY analysis should look like, regardless of tier, value, or whatever.

    PS, Colonel M you can edit the poll and possibly add a third option, unless I am mistaken.
  24. Flashstorm1

    Flashstorm1
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    Personally I feel that the layout SDS implemented in the Milotic analysis is the best way to go about writing future consise analyses.

    At first, I thought that option two presented a good case for displaying information since it offered both a brief summary and more in-depth information over each set. However, I realize that, after reading some of the posts here and working with some of these analyses myself, the truncated paragraphs aren't really amounting to much. The truncated paragraphs are essentially a repeat of the in-depth information, and they aren't really emphasizing on any of the traits of the set to the point where anybody but the "noobiest" of players are actually learning something. Essentially, you only state the obvious.

    With SDS's layout, you can focus on all of the relevant information that pertains to the Pokemon and how it's to be used in battle. I think that the only information that should be viewable from the get-go is the information that pertains to the Pokemon as an individual. People are going to want to know what the set offers before they think of viable teammates. I am not saying the team options part of the analyses aren't important, rather that the individual sets themselves should be the focus of the set comments.

    Another thing I like is the Overview section at the top. It basically gives readers a first impression of the Pokemon, and that is the goal of the concise/truncated project after all. We want readers to be able to read their own minimum of the information they want without having to read anything extraneous.

    ---

    I know I was discussing this with SDS and someone else the other day in #stark, but I think the best approach (overall) would be to establish just what is the information that necessarily adheres to the Pokemon as an individual (considering that's the core of the set analyses). I think only one brief sentence should be used to describe what the set does, and then explain the moves and EVs as we have done in the past. Of course, we will also need to establish "objective" standards on how concise we want these analyses to be as well.

    For now, I've also decided to adhere from voting since my own thoughts doesn't necessarily reflect any of the options presented in the poll.
  25. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    The poll was pointless after SDS presented his info IMO. I think we're going to flow with that. Sarenji, we will still continue to cut out useless / unnecessary information. Feel free to help with this.
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