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Acid Rain

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Cease Tick, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. Cease Tick

    Cease Tick

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    Messages:
    31
    Hello Smogon! I'm Cease Tick. I may have just joined Smogon, but I've been playing competitive Pokemon for about three years now; ever since Latias was unbanned in D/P/Pt OU. I finally decided to join Smogon because I really wanted you guys to see this team! I've had this team for a while, and actually stopped using it for a bit to work on other teams, but recently I came back to it because it was so fun to use. If you guys want to know about rankings and stuff, then I don't have anything super special for you. Recently, in about two hours over two days I got from the mid 1100s to about 1330, but I'm sure that a better and more dedicated ladder user could get much higher with this team. So enough about me.

    I began building this team after deciding to make a team around Suicune. I had used Suicune earlier in OU back before Garchomp was banned and it was very effective. On this team, I wanted to use Suicune to its maximum potential in the tier. So obviously, the goal of this team is to set up a Suicune sweep. The way it does this is by crippling Suicune's primary counters through poison (hence the team's name) while stalling out the rest of the opponent's team until the time is right for Suicune to take the stage. This team does have a few Pokemon that give it trouble, but it makes up for it by having really good matchups against a lot of other teams.

    In this RMT, I for the most part will not go into details about specific movesets or EV spreads unless I had to chose between viable alternatives or if something isn't standard, because you guys should be able to figure out why Gliscor has Earthquake and why Suicune is running max defense. I'm sorry if I ramble on a bit in my descriptions; a lot of the time I end up describing what I might do in specific scenarios against specific Pokemon. I feel that this helps the reader get a better idea of how the team plays. Keep in mind that I've been using this team for a long time. This team was made a couple months before Excadrill and Tornadus were banned, so if you see any reference to them in the descriptions keep that in mind. Also sorry if the pictures are kind of big. Moves in red are changes that I have made.

    Team at a glance:
    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]







    [​IMG]
    Politoed (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Psychic
    - Perish Song

    Politoed doesn't come out much, but he does some important stuff for the team. Rain is pretty good for this team; everything benefits just a bit from a rain boost. Also, rain lets me get rid of other harmful weathers like hail or sun. Besides just setting up weather, Politoed makes a decent revenge killer. Timid lets me revenge kill stuff around the base 110 speed tier, like Terrakion, Infernape, Landorus, and Lati@s. Back before they were banned, Toed could also revenge kill both Thunderus and Excadrill pretty reliably. I'll also use Toed to kill unboosted dragons, because sometimes a surprise Outrage from Dragonite or whatever kills Gliscor and I can use Ice Beam to kill it. Psychic allows Politoed to kill Toxicroak, who can otherwise be a pretty big threat to my team.

    As a side note, Perish Song is a great move on scarf Politoed. Perish Song lets me force out all sorts of dangerous shit if necessary, like Breloom, Jellicent, Gyarados, and Reuniclus. I don't need it often; but when I do, it's really a lifesaver.

    I usually play Politoed pretty conservatively. This isn't an offensive team, and for most pokemon I generally have a safer and better switch-in available. Plus, if I keep him in reserve, then he should be in tip-top shape when I do need him to revenge kill something, change the weather, or force something out. However, if it will give me a significant advantage, then I won't think twice about sacrificing him.




    [​IMG]
    Breloom (F) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 236 HP / 212 SDef / 60 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)

    - Spore
    - Bulk Up
    - Seed Bomb
    - Drain Punch


    Breloom is a really dangerous pokemon. I decided to use subseed Breloom because its bulk allows it to set up on all sorts of things Breloom normally can't, like Scizor, Excadrill (in the past), and Dragonite. Breloom is also one of the best Ferrothorn switch-ins in the game. It doesn't give a shit about Thunder Wave, Leech Seed, or hazards, and can get a free sub whenever it switches in to Ferrothorn because Power Whip doesn't break its sub. Once Breloom gets a sub up, it can do all sorts of not-nice things to the opponent. Because of this, Breloom has great synergy with Suicune: against teams with Ferrothorn as their only answer to Suicune, I can bring in Suicune and start setting up until Ferrothorn is forced to switch in, then switch to Breloom and get a free sub. As long as I have Suicune waiting in the wings, my opponent will be forced to keep Ferrothorn alive to prevent a sweep, and I can repeat the process ad infinitum.

    Usually when I switch Breloom in, I just rely on his natural bulk to get set up, instead of firing off spore right away. That way, I can save spore until it will do the most damage and keep my opponent on their toes. I will usually try to use spore against annoying Pokemon like Skarmory, Tentacruel, and Gyarados.

    Anyway, I usually switch Breloom in on Ferrothorn, Forretress, Excadrill(in the past), Chansey/Blissey, and Rotom-W, among others.

    Breloom benefits from rain because it cuts the power of fire attacks and gets rid of the residual damage from sandstorm and hail.

    Honestly though, if there's anything on the team that could be replaced, it's probably Breloom. The only unique threat that Breloom handles much better than everything else on my team is Ferrothorn, and I feel like I could probably put something else in this slot that still beats the nettle while also handling some of the problem pokemon for this team, like Skarmory, Gyarados, Toxicroak, and Tentacruel. Spore is nice, but it conflicts with all the toxic here pretty badly, and is not nearly as useful as it would be on an offensive team. Besides, Breloom doesn't even beat Ferrothorn that run Gyro Ball. I think the problem with Breloom on this team is that while he can beat a lot of stuff, it's mostly the same stuff that is handled very well by the rest of my team, outside of Ferrothorn. Let me know if you have any suggestions. Breloom's set was changed to a Bulk Up set to beat Ferrothorn and some other Pokemon more effectively.




    [​IMG]
    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Calm Mind
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Why doesn't anyone else use this thing? I know it needs a good deal of team support, but it's really a monster. The way I see it, Crocune is a lot like Reuniclus: a physically bulky calm minder, with recovery and a virtual immunity to status. However, they have almost entirely different sets of counters, with only Latios and Jellicent able to counter both. Reuniclus's other common counters, like Tyranitar, Scizor, Jirachi, Latias, and Gengar, all get crushed by Suicune. Anyway, I don't think that any of the moves on this set need explanation, except maybe that I chose Surf over Scald because Scald conflicted with all the poison I was spreading. A Suicune sweep is definitely this team's win condition. Reuniclus's counters are replaced by Celebi, Vaporeon, Jellicent, Virizion, Gastrodon, Ferrothorn, and Toxicroak. I use so much poison on this team because all of those Pokemon except Toxicroak and Ferrothorn. are totally crippled by poison. Actually, Suicune can begin setting up on the water types as long as I've poisoned them already. Suicune can set up on a TON of stuff, he has much more bulk than Reuniclus and significantly better typing. One other really important trait that Suicune has is Pressure. Suciune is the best PP staller in the game, period. He can beat every other calm minder in the game, except Virizion and Psychock Reuniclus. Latias may have tons of special bulk and a resistance to my STAB, but if it doesn't get a crit in its 8 uses of dragon pulse, it loses. I've done Suicune vs Latias many times with this team, and I've never lost that matchup. The odds of Latias with full PP of getting at least one crit in 8 attacks is just under 40%. Keep in mind that Suicune is only my secondary check to Latias.

    Anyway, Suicune does a lot for this team. He obviously gives me a very threatening win condition that keeps opponents on their toes. Also, he gives me a bulky counter/check to many powerful physical attackers, like Landorus, Terrakion, and Lurcario. Suicune benefits from rain because it boosts his power a lot, so he needs much less setup to kill important threats like Scizor.

    Suicune also beats Reuniclus, please stop posting saying I have a Reuniclus weakness, I really don't.




    [​IMG]
    Gliscor (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 244 HP / 88 Def / 176 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic
    - Taunt
    - Protect

    Gliscor is probably the biggest status-spreader on this team, and almost certainly its most annoying Pokemon. Sub+Protect means I can beat almost everything that's already poisoned by just sitting in front of it and not taking any damage. Toxic is very important on this set. Remember all those counters to Suicune I mentioned earlier? Well they all love to switch in to Gliscor as he sets up a sub. From there I'm almost guaranteed a toxic on them, which makes Suicune's life pretty easy. Gliscor is also an effective deterrent to VoltSwitch. I will usually switch him into Scizor's U-turn, and then Rotom will come in about 90% of the time. I always use protect to scout for Rotom's next move, and what I do next depends on their set. If it's scarfed, I'll either switch or set up a sub, depending on what move they use. If they're bulky, I'm usually faster and can just use Sub+Protect to stall out Hydro Pump's measly 8 PP. Most of the time however I will try to scout out Rotom's speed first by having it switch into a Gliscor with a sub already up. The EV spread gives me a toxic orb number so that I don't lose health while I'm stalling.

    On this team, Gliscor counters the things it usually does, like Conkeldurr, Toxicroak (without ice punch), Landorus, and so on, and it gets a huge number of opportunities to switch in. I will mention that Gliscor is probably my main Dragonite counter. He can eat most of Dragonite's hits, and I just have to get status on him once, and from there I can just Sub+Protect to win. I can deal with Lum Berry, but Substitute Dragonite is a pretty big problem. And no, I am not considering switching Toxic to Ice Fang, it's just too useful. Anyway, Gliscor benefits from rain because it lets him switch in on fire attacks from the likes of Heatran and Darmanitan. Most water attacks would kill Gliscor anyway so increasing their power isn't a big deal for Gliscor. Substitue was recently replaced with Taunt to help beat Skarmory and Breloom, among other threats. Gliscor's speed was also increased to allow me to outspeed and kill adamant Toxicroak.




    [​IMG]
    Ferrothorn (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Leech Seed
    - Thunder Wave
    - Power Whip

    Forretress has been replaced with Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn can still set up spikes while threatening Dragonite and especially Gyarados more. It still checks Haxorus and stuff as well. EV spread lets me check those physical threats more reliably. For more info, go into my past members section, and read that but replace "Forretress" with "Ferrothorn" and omit the stuff about Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin.




    [​IMG]
    Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Seismic Toss
    - Toxic
    - Softboiled
    - Stealth Rock

    I hate to use a cliché like this, but Chansey is really the glue that holds this team together. Chansey beats almost every single special threat, with CM Reuniclus and Gengar handled by Suicune. Chansey really just does everything I need it to. It beats special threats, it gets rocks, and it spreads status. Chansey has more than just special bulk. Most people don't realize how much physical bulk Chansey has, because it's significantly more than Blissey. Here are some calcs of various attacks against Chansey:

    Specs Latios Psyshock: 538 Atk vs 178 Def & 703 HP (80 Base Power): 261 - 307 (37.13% - 43.67%)
    CB Scizor U-Turn: 591 Atk vs 178 Def & 703 HP (70 Base Power): 250 - 295 (35.56% - 41.96%)
    Scarf Landorus Earthquake: 349 Atk vs 178 Def & 703 HP (100 Base Power): 211 - 249 (30.01% - 35.42%)

    So anyway, Chansey takes a ton of pressure off of the rest of my team to handle special threats such as Rotom, Lati@s, Celebi, and more, and she can also take physical hits well enough to cripple the attacker with toxic. If I don't need Chansey for the rest of my opponent's team, I might sac her against something like Dragonite that's giving me trouble just to get poison on it. Chansey can survive hits as strong as +2 Outrage if necessary to status Dragonite in return. This doesn't happen most of the time, but it's always an option. Chansey is actually only marginally less bulky than Gliscor, although it is significantly less bulky than Suicune. Chansey benefits from rain because it takes away sand's residual damage, which is annoying without leftovers.

    Past members:
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
    Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SDef
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Gyro Ball
    - Rapid Spin

    Forretress is a pretty useful Pokemon. I knew I needed a spinner because Suicune would proably be giving Ferrothorn free switch-ins. I was reluctant to use Forretress at first, because I had used him in the past and it didn't work well. On this team, however, he does a pretty decent job. His primary job is to set up a bunch of hazards so that the opponent can't just switch back and forth willy-nilly. Spikes are useful to punish switches this way, and Toxic Spikes are useful for some more specific threats. The number one threat that's beaten by Toxic Spikes is Celebi. Toxic Spikes let me keep Celebi poisoned through natural cure. Without Toxic Spikes, I can wall most Celebi with Chansey, but I can do anything to it to make sure that it dies so that Suicune can sweep. Toxic Spikes also helps against other Pokemon crippled by poison, but I don't need it for that purpose and I am often better off just setting up spikes and poisoning those Pokemon manually. Anyway, Rapid Spin is very useful for taking pressure off of my side of the field if necessary. I chose Gyro Ball over other options like Volt Switch because Forretress is also my primary check to very strong dragons like Haxorus. That is also why I'm using a physically defensive EV spread. Special defense Forretress is primarily useful for being able to set up on bulky waters and stuff but with rain up that wouldn't be too effective anyway. Rain does help Forretress survive fire moves like Fire Punch from Dragonite or HP Fire from Magnezone.


    Threat list:
    This isn't going to be a huge detailed list or anything but rather a short list of threats that this team has problems with that raters can quickly reference.

    [​IMG]
    Gyarados can fuck me up really bad. Offensive versions can be worn down, statused, and eventually killed, so they aren't that bad. RestTalk is crushed by Breloom. The real problem here is fighting Taunt and Substitute variants. Both are immune to my primary modes of killing them, Toxic and Leech Seed. My best shot is to make sure rocks are up, force them out with Perish Song, and hopefully catch them on the switch with Toxic. This sometimes works, but it is not at all a reliable solution. Ferrothorn and Bulk Up Breloom help me a lot against Gyarados.

    [​IMG]
    Toxicroak 6-0s me if it has Ice Punch, unless I can work some kind of miracle involving Spikes, Spore, Perish Song, Gyro Ball, or any combination of the above. Other Toxicroak are significantly less threatening, but still very annoying as a defensive threat. The only thing I have that can beat Toxicroak is Gliscor, and if they have something that can ignore Gliscor like Skarmory or their own Gliscor, then I'm in a very bad position because they can just switch back and forth between them. Gliscor's speed has been increased to help defeat Toxicroak. Politoed has also been given Psychic.

    [​IMG]
    Skarmory really gets on my nerves. It switches in for free on Gliscor and then can really mess with my team. Spikes can be deadly if I can't get rid of them, and Whirlwind is super annoying. He beats Breloom easily, and can phaze out Suicune. My best answers to it are my water types, but between spikes and whirlwind he can often wear them down while keeping them from coming in. Even if he gets forced out, he can easily come right back in for free against a lot of my team. Gliscor now has Taunt to help shut down Skarmory, making it significantly less threatening.

    [​IMG]
    Most Dragonite sets, while threatening, can be played around pretty well by my team. Band can be statused by Gliscor, walled by Forretress, and revenge killed by Politoed. DD is usually statused and walled by Gliscor. Parashuffle is beaten by Chansey and is generally nonthreatening. Special variants are also beaten by Chansey. The problem set here is SubDD. If I can't get it statused on the switch, then I will have to rely on a combination of Chansey, Politoed, and Forretress. Chansey fights it similarly to how it fights Latias; It breaks its subs with seismic toss and tries to predict when it will use a different move, then toxics it that turn. The difference is that Dragonite can kill Chansey far more easily if I mess up a single prediction. If it has roost also, then I'm almost totally relying on Chansey. Forretress is too weak to threaten Dragonite if it has recovery, and Politoed is probably getting outsped and KOd. Ferrothorn helps out some against Dragonite, but ones with Substitute are still a threat.


    [​IMG]
    Without Toxic Spikes, certain Celebi variants can be quite a problem for this team.


    Alright, nothing else really comes immediately to my mind. So that's it I guess. Thanks for reading and rating!
  2. Soulfly

    Soulfly

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2011
    Messages:
    409
    Your rain team , just like mine , has a huge problem with Ferrothorn.
    With Breloom beeing your only counter to it with focus punch (and it wont OHKO with the EV set you got).

    What you can try is a bulk up breloom , they work greatly in rain.
    They also deal with the Volt-Turn combo.
    Cant get leech seeded by ferrothorn , so can easely set up on it too as gyro ball nor power whip will hurt it too much (defenatly after a bulk up).

    I dont know the set but its in the smogon pokedex so can go check it there :)

    Other then that , nice team ^^
  3. NatGeo

    NatGeo kauai
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,426
    Hey,

    it's a good start that you have some of your big threats covered! Dragonite does pose a threat, though that's just a matter of having Stealth Rock up asap more than anything else. Aside from the threats that you've already stated, CM Reuniclus gives your team hell, just like many stall teams today. To that extent I think you should try a SubCM Jirachi over Suicune. Both assume the role of a Bulky Calm Mind sweeper, but Jirachi is arguably better because it takes advantage of your hazards better, while at the same time Substitute blocks status that could get the better of you (though admittedly you outspeed the most common spreaders of status!). Jirachi really is frightening if you can set it up right, which in all honesty isn't that hard. SubCM Jirachi is a great check to CM Reuniclus, as well as all the Pokemon on your threat list if Jirachi comes out quickly.

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Serene Grace | Timid
    252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Calm Mind / Substitute / Thunder / Psyshock

    Another thing - Have you ever tried Bulk Up Breloom? It's honestly a fantastic stallbreaker, and it stops Rotom-W cold, which would otherwise prove a bit of a problem. You also have a shot at crippling any VoltTurn offense teams due to your increased Defense. It's honestly just a suggestion, but I think it would work great in an offensive core alongside Jirachi.

    Breloom @ Toxic Orb
    Poison Heal | Careful
    236 HP / 212 SpD / 60 Spe
    Bulk Up / Spore / Seed Bomb / Drain Punch

    hope this rate helped - gl!
  4. Cease Tick

    Cease Tick

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    Messages:
    31
    Soulfly:
    I considered switching to the Bulk Up set. Ferrothorn actually isn't that bad of a problem at all; Breloom doesn't need to 1HKO it because Ferrothorn can't touch Breloom. The concern I had about trying that set is that once I spore something stuff like Skarmory, Lati@s, and Dragonite can come in for free, while my set can at least annoy them with leech seed and put damage on them with focus punch safely behind a sub. I don't really need another answer to VoltTurn, as Gliscor is a pretty decent answer to it and I can generally play around it. I will test the set though if you recommend it, because it will help against Gyro Ball Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, and Gyarados. Thanks for the rate.

    NatGeo:
    Suicune can set up on and beat CM Reuniclus. Most players don't realize this until I'm already set up. I've done it multiple times, and I've never lost to Reuniclus. The only set that's threatening is one that uses Psyshock, and even then I can PP stall using Gliscor and Suicune's pressure and force it out using Politoed if necessary. Replacing Suicune would leave me open to threats like Mamoswine and Landorus, among many others. Soulfly also recommended Bulk Up Breloom, so I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the rate.
  5. New World Order

    New World Order Licks Toads
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,170
    Hi, pretty good team in general. However, your team has tremendous issues against Sun teams, as you don't have any reliable ways to deal with common Sun abusers should your Rain go down. Politoed can technically revenge kill most of these threats, but its the most valuable member of your team, and you cannot risk it getting picked off. Furthermore, your team gets dominated by CM Reuniclus, as your only line of defense against it is, again, Politoed. Atm, Suicune seems to be the most expendable member of your team, and I would suggest dropping it for a CM Roar Latias. This bugger can take on most of the Chlorophyll sweepers, and can defeat just about any Pokemon in a CM war. Latias should give you insurance against non-DD variants of Dragonite, which is always nice. It does the exact same job as Suicune, but does it against Pokemon you have difficulty combating.

    I would like to third the Bulk Up Breloom suggestion. While I do think this whole "recommend Bulk Up Breloom for every team" phase some raters are going through, BU Breloom would be an excellent addition to your team, simply because it gives you a trump card against opposing Rain teams. The added ability to take on Volt turn teams is just an added benefit. While it lacks the immediate power of SubSeed, it makes up for it with superior longterm offensive output.

    To mitigate the issue against Toxicroak, a simple solution would be to swap Focus Blast for Psychic. While its not the most reliable method, it should suffice as a revenge killer, as Sucker Punch wont OHKO. Focus Blast's only target is honestly Ferrothorn, but if you opt to make the Bulk Up Breloom change, Ferrothorn will just become set-up bait.

    GL
    TLDR version (open)

    CM Roar Latias>Suicune
    pros: performs the same function as Suicune, beats Reuniclus, gives you a check to Sun teams
    cons: prone to status, as it doesn't have Rest, although you have Gliscor to absorb status already

    Bulk Up Breloom>Subseed Breloom
    pros: gives you the jump against opposing Rain teams, does decently well against Voltturn, more longterm offensive potential
    cons: lose access to Leech Seed, which shouldn't be too great an issue, as well as less initial power

    Psychic>Focus Blast on Politoed
    pros: gives you an answer to Toxicroak, as well as a way to hit Fighting types harder
    cons: lose coverage vs Ferrothorn, but you might as well use that as set up bait for Breloom

    Sets (open)

    Latias @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Roar
    - Recover

    Breloom @ Toxic Orb
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 236 HP / 212 SpD / 60 Spe
    Careful Nature (+SpD, -SpA)
    - Bulk Up
    - Spore
    - Drain Punch
    - Seed Bomb

    Politoed @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Psychic
    - Perish Song
  6. Cease Tick

    Cease Tick

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2011
    Messages:
    31
    New World Order:
    Trust me, Suicune does really well against Reuniclus. Seriously, I don't need a check for it outside of Suicune. As for sun, I guess I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think it's as bad as you say it is. Chansey does really, really well against the most common Chlorophyll sweepers, and Suicune can handle powerful fire-type attacks just fine, even in sun. Like, Scarf Darmanitan in sun only does about 39% with Flare Blitz. I guess I'll give Latias a shot, but I'm really not confident that it will be better for the team.

    I'm planning on testing Bulk Up Breloom.

    Psychic on Politoed sounds like a fantastic idea, I can't believe I didn't think of that earlier. I will definitely change that.

    Thanks a bunch for your feedback.
  7. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,557
    Hey,

    This looks like a great team - although Suicune isn't usually seen in BW OU, it definitely seems pretty fun to play with! Anyhow, to help with the threats you have mentioned I suggest switching your Gliscor's EV spread to 252 HP / 40 Def / 176 Spe (feel free to mess around with the HP and Def investments, as the Spe investment is the part I'm pointing out here) as this will make sure that you outpace all Adamant Toxicroak and KO with Earthquake, as long as Stealth Rock is on the field. Additionally, I suggest you run Taunt on the set; preferably over Protect or Substitute as this will shut down the likes of Skarmory and Ferrothorn.

    Defensive Ferrothorn (open)
    [​IMG]
    Ferrothorn @ Leftovers / Shed Shell
    Relaxed | Iron Barbs
    252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
    - Spikes
    - Thunder Wave
    - Power Whip
    - Leech Seed

    Of course, this still leaves you weak to Gyarados and Dragonite, so I suggest switching out Forretress for Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn plays very similarly to Forretress but also has the added perk of Thunder Wave - this basically render all offensive Gyarados and Dragonite useless, as paralyzed, they're easily picked off by the rest of you team (however, you may need to play around with Gyarados carrying Substitute; though, Power Whip + Thunder Wave should be sufficient in getting through to it). However, although you do lose out on Rapid Spin support through this change, I really don't think it'll be a very big impact on your team's success as nearly each of your Pokemon has a method of recovery, and anyways, common spikers such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory are shut down by Gliscor and Breloom.

    Changes in Short

    • Tweaks on Gliscor EV spread and moveset
    • Ferrothorn over Forretress

    Edit: I just saw NWO's rate; although Psychic on Politoed is an excellent option, I really don't think it's great for this team, specifically, as having Politoed as your main check to Toxicroak (with Ice Punch) means that you'll need to revenge-kill it, which in turn means that you'll need to sacrifice a Pokemon. To be honest, I really don't think you should be sacrificing Pokemon when there are other ways to counter a threat, especially on a team like this where every Pokemon is essential to the success of the team.
  8. rylau00

    rylau00

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Messages:
    34
    nice team cstick, i just played you and that was a hell of a game. anwyays, your speed creep breloom didnt work out so well for you during our bulk up/drain punch war although you could have had the faster spore obviously. im not sure what EV spread you have on your loom but it looks like the bulk up/rain tank version.

    your gliscor, as your rmt states, is definitely the most annoying member of your team to deal with because of sub-protecting, and while i was playing you, gliscor definitely seemed to be the best defensive pivot on your team because it forced switches and poisoned basically half of my team.

    suicune on the other hand, did almost nothing during our match and imho i think crocune is a relic. any breloom could remove it no problem and it doesnt seem to be much of a team player. because yoru team seems to be based on spreading toxic around the opponents team, i think a specially defensive gastrodon would be a greater asset to the team than the crocune. although it doesnt have status immunity, it pairs well with gliscor in absorbing water and ice attacks and can be used a little more offensively. with a storm drain boost, a gastro set with surf, earth power/ice beam, toxic and recover could help whittle down the opponents pokemon. i know the coverage is redundant with politoed but the freedom to switch moves is definitely a bonus.

    if you added gastrodon and decided on 2 attacking moves+toxic+recover, you could remove toxic on chansey and add wish support (which i think is extremely beneficial for such a stall oriented team) by replacing softboiled with wish and toxic with protect.
  9. Cease Tick

    Cease Tick

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    Aerrow:

    Great ideas. I really like having both Sub and Protect on Gliscor for near-infinite stalling, but dropping one move for taunt sounds like it could be worth it to get to skarmory and friends, even though I'll sorely miss the ability to use both. Taunt would also help against enemy Breloom, who could be big trouble otherwise. The extra speed sounds like a good idea also, because Suicune is bulky enough to fill in against extra powerful hits.

    I'd been considering Ferrothorn over Forretress for a while now. It would definitely help with Gyarados, and against most Dragonite too, but I doubt it will do much to Sub+DD variants, who were my primary concern in the first place. I'm a bit worried also that Thunder wave might conflict with Toxic, and that the loss of Toxic Spikes could leave me vulnerable to Celebi. However, Suicune can beat Celebi once it gets a boost or two in unless Celebi also has a boosting move, in which case it likely lacks recovery and is vulnerable to being walled and eventually killed by Chansey.

    Thanks for your suggestions, I'll try both of them out.

    Rylau00:

    Crocune works; I think the issue was more that I didn't have a good answer to Breloom at all. Hopefully giving Gliscor Taunt will help me against Breloom, although I will miss Gliscor's ability to annoy so effectively. I've been using this team for a long time, and you'd be surprised at how effortlessly Suicune can sweep some teams. Besides, I don't see how Gastrodon would have helped at all in our match. Besides, Gastrodon would leave me open to powerful physical threats like Terrakion and to enemy Calm Minders like Reuniclus. I don't think wish support would be that useful to this team, because almost everything has some form of recovery. Besides, Toxic keeps Chansey from being setup bait, especially against random stuff like Morning Sun Volcarona. Thanks for your input though, and for the good match we had.
  10. cosmicfinch

    cosmicfinch

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    I'd consider swapping suicune for a Tentacruel with toxic spikes. This frees up some of those toxic moves you have. Like swapping toxic on gliscor for ice fang to help you with dragonite.
    Tentacruel in the rain is a beast. Toss a protect on him and you can give him surf as well. If you can establish rain you dont need to worry about depending on sleep talk. Plus you can add some rapid spin relief as well. And laugh while you get double heals and your opponent gets poison damage while you use protect :D
  11. asterat

    asterat

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    Always use tentacruel on rain stall, over suicune
  12. Thundur

    Thundur

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    Hey,

    Pretty cool team. After battling this team earlier today, I think I can give an accurate rate. Since you have no spinner, hazards can wear down your core members pretty quickly letting certain Pokemon sweep through. One major problem is Celebi with the correct support. Since you do not have a spinner, hazards will wear down Chansey pretty quickly to the point wear Celebi can KO with a +2 Giga Drain. Also, CM Reuniclus seems to stand out as a threat as after a couple of boosts, it can dent your team quite a lot. If she packs Psyshock, she can easily pass Chansey. Even without Psyshock, Reuniclus can CM and Recover untill she can beat your Chansey. Because of this, I second NWO's suggestion to put a CM Roar Latias over Suicune. This will also help against Sub Bulk Up Toxicroak as you can Roar them out. Sucker Punch will have no affect.

    Your EVs on Breloom are not very efficient. Since you are going with the Bulk Up set, the EVs for that set will work better. A 232 HP / 216 SpD / 60 Spd spread with a Careful nature on Breloom will help a lot. Since you are already boosting your defense, there really is not much use putting 252 EVs in defense. This spread allows Breloom to tank hits from both sides of the spectrum. 60 Spd EVs allows Breloom to out speed standard CB Scizor.

    In a nutshell,
    • CM Latias over Suicune
    • Change Breloom's EVs

    Over all, pretty cool team! GL.
  13. Cease Tick

    Cease Tick

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    Cosmicflinch:
    The entire point of all the poison is to cripple Suicune's counters so I can sweep. Plus, Suicune checks all sorts of threats Like Mamoswine, Landorus, and Calm Minders. No thanks, thanks for trying.

    Thundur:
    I just recently switched Ferrothorn in for Forretress, and I feel like that is where a lot of my trouble might be coming from. He could spin hazards in the past, and additionally could lay Toxic Spikes to cripple Celebi badly. I didn't have trouble with Celebi prior to switching out Forretress. I expressed these concerns earlier in my post to Aerrow. Also, Suicune beats Reuniclus, read some of the responses to other raters. Gliscor's handles Toxicroak just fine now.

    About Breloom, I switched my EVs already on PO but forgot to change them in the thread. Thanks for pointing that out.
  14. Thundur

    Thundur

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    Suicune does not beat Reuniclus efficiently. If she has Psyshock, (wich a lot of them have) your screwed.
  15. CedOmega

    CedOmega

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    Just putting this out there, but have you considered Swords Dance over BulkUp on Breloom?
  16. Epic OU

    Epic OU

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    Hi there

    At a glance it dosn`t look likeba team I would see myself posting on but the team in my opinion is very good. But that gyrados and skarmary problem is really bad. So I recamond putting HP Electric on Suicune making able to hit Bulky waters and Gyrados plus Skarmary. Otherwise great team and good luck.


    PS Gliscor is faster than Toxicroak so if you run Earthquake you can beat it.
  17. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
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    Hi,

    This is a pretty cool team. I have a few minor changes that I think you can implement to make it better, though. First off, your Gliscor set does not beat Skarmory--rather, it Taunts it to delay the inevitable. I think that since you have a viable Toxic spreader in Chansey, and a way to deal with fast threats in Ferrothorn, that you could go for Ice Fang > Toxic and Swords Dance > Protect. My reasoning is this: First off, you have great synergy already, so you don't need to be abusing Protect + Toxic, as you can just predict the opponent's move and switch. Also, Ice Fang is a way to take down Skarmory and stop it from ever coming out again. Lastly, you can go on mini-sweeps with a rampant Gliscor, which doesn't usually disappoint. Anyhow, that is all I can think of to improve at the moment. Cool team, and good luck!
  18. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
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    Hey cool team man! I'm currently testing out a sort of rain balance team myself :)

    Love BU Breloom literally crushes entire teams haha

    So the weak link I see is Suicune, it's unfortunate because you've used such an underrated pokemon but I feel its not really doing much for your team besides increase weaknesses. What I would like to recommend is trying a Specially Defensive Scizor over Suicune. The set I suggest is:

    Show Hide
    Scizor (F) @ Iron Plate
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 HP / 96 Atk / 160 SDef
    Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SAtk)
    Moveset:
    - Swords Dance
    - U-Turn
    - Bullet Punch
    - Roost


    It's a funky set no doubt, buts it's one that has proved invaluable to me on multiple occasions. It lends ideas from both the Bulky SD set, and the standard CB set. I believe this set would work wonders on your team because of the threats it both checks or revenge kills. You claim that Suicune is your Reuniclus and Latias check, this guy checks both, only better ;) Both of those pokes' will only do minimal damage as you either U-Turn for damage/momentum or Roost back to healthier conditions. I also chose this set because of how well it checks Celebi, a pokemon you have expressed concern about. Celebi will not be able to muster enough power to defeat this Scizor, once Scizor is in the opponent must choose: Lose Celebi to U-Turn, give you the switch advantage, or allow you to freely Roost off any damage. This Scizor also gives you a sure fire revenge killer for such 'mons as Terrakion and Haxorus. Double Dance Terrakion is particular seems like it could cause trouble for your team, all it needs to do is set up the right move to eliminate one of your members. Iron Plate is there to ensure max damage on Terrakion but Leftovers can also be used though you will then not be able to bluff a Band. Swords Dance is there because you can always set up late game on one of Scizor's many resistances and begin spreading the pain.

    Ps. This dude works wonders with BU Breloom ;)

    Hope you try it out,

    Good Luck!
  19. blobman

    blobman

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    iron barbs is a better choice than sturdy on ferro, not alot of things can 1 shot it in rain and u have no spinner so hazards will break it anyways

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