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Gen 3 [ADV] Greek Stall (Competitive Noob)

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by AraShaun, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. AraShaun

    AraShaun

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Messages:
    53
    Hello All!

    I recently started playing Pokemon competitively, almost exclusively 3rd gen (Have dabbled in some 1st before).
    I play Pokemon on a legitimate cartridge, against friends (However they also play competitively, so no "Ill teach my Charizard 4 Fire Type moves!" BS)

    This is my latest effort at a stall team, my personal favourite type of team, and I have to say I'm loving it so far.
    I'm not terribly experienced, so any advice will be greatly appreciated, also keep in mind that while I am playing on a cartridge, I will be hacking Mons onto it, so I will be able to get Hidden Power/Event Pokemon/Proper IVs etc etc

    So without further ado, here is my current team!

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    So my plan for this is to first describe the Core, then what I had in mind whilst building the team, then individual Pokemon descriptions.

    The Core:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    What 3rd Gen stall team would be complete without SkarmBliss?
    Skarmory lays Spikes (Essential for teams like this), Phases problem Mons, sponges Physical hits like a boss, and perhaps might even deal a bit of damage along the way. To compliment this I have Blissey, who is the teams Special Wall, basically has infinite HP, and runs Aromatherapy to keep my team healthy, which is quite nice to have as quite a lot of my sets run rest. Finally to wrap it all up, i have Claydol. Claydol resists every Physical Attack that Skarmory Doesn't, He spins to keep spikes away, and has nice coverage in his moveset.
    The SkarmBlissDol Core means I have reliable damage soaking, and have a nice way to lay and remove Spikes.

    Hopes and Dreams:
    So my idea whilst making this team was to create a team capable of stalling the match for as long as I needed to, whittle away as much as possible with incremental damage (Mainly Spikes and Toxic), then deal with the remaining Mons with a single Offensive threat (Or even just small attacks from the rest of the team). With this in mind I decided on what roles I wanted to have:

    * A Special Wall
    * A Physical Wall
    * A Cleric
    * A RestTalker
    * A Spiker
    * A Spinner
    * A Spinblocker
    * An Offensive Threat
    * A Phazer
    * A Status Guy (Toxic, T-Wave, WoW etc etc)
    * A Mixed Wall

    Those were the main things, things that I decided I did not want to go without, however there are some more, some of which are not currently on the team, that I wouldn't mind having:

    * A Hazer
    * A PP-Staller
    * A Wish-Passer
    * A Screener
    * A BoltBeamer
    * A MeanlookPasser
    * A Sleeper
    * A Hail/Sandstorm Inducer
    * A Seeder
    * A Wall Breaker

    However we are only allowed 6 Mons, so many of these will not be present on the team

    So as for what I do have:

    Blissey: Cleric, Special Wall, Toxic Guy
    Skarmory: Physical Wall, Phazer, Spiker
    Calydol: Spinner, Physical Wall
    Zapdos: Rest Talker
    Dusclops: Mixed Wall, PP-Staller, WoW Guy, Spinblocker
    Suicune: Offensive Threat

    There are several things I am considering changing, and each would mean I would have to change movesets of other Mons respectively, note for some of these I will be posting detailed sets and things for the alternatives also:

    Idea #1: Cutting Zapdos:
    This would lead to me changing Either Suicune or Dusclops into a RestTalker, and depending on what one I chose, would mean I would either add Tyranitar, or a Pressure guy (Probably Umbreon) respectively. I would no longer have a Pseudo lead unless I replaced him with Tyranitar, however my RestTalker would be less suspectable to RockSlide as a result.
    Another option would be to replace Zapdos with a RestTalk Metagross. Metagross has very nice bulk and a good ability, a bit of surprise factor with an uncommon set, and could act as a pseudo-offensive presence, allowing me to cut Suicune for something like Vapoureon.

    Idea #2: Cutting Suicune:
    Suicune would probably be replaced by Breloom, if I wanted a Purely offensive Threat, that can also act as a Statuser, a Wall-breaker AND a Seeder (Note that there are no mechanical clauses since I play on cart, so No Sleep Clause, however we have an agreement on things like Evasion Clause and Species Clause), he would make a truly respectable lead, however is very fragile. The other option would to be replacing Suicune with Vapoureon, which gives me far more defensive leverage, a Wishpasser, and a useful ability in Water Absorb, however I would then have a lack of Offensive threat, although may turn to Replacing Zapdos with Metagross again.

    Idea #3: Cutting Dusclops:
    Dusclops and Gengar serve the same main roll, in blocking Rapid Spin, however Dusclops is more defensive whilst Gengar is more offensive. I would lose defensive presence but gain speed, some very nice coverage in attacks, and a pseudo Boltbeam combo to boot. I am not sure about this one as much, so am running Dusclops out of personal Preference, however I will be testing both, and will provide detailed set information about both.

    The Pokemans:

    The Lead:
    [​IMG]
    Zapdos (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD
    Calm Nature
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Thunderbolt
    - Roar

    A standard RestTalk Zapdos, he leads decently, can dent certain Mons with a STAB Thunderbolt, and has a chance to Phase even while asleep. Defensively, with 32 EV's he can survive a CB'd Salamence's Rockslide, in which case I can either Switch out, whilst Zapdos can Rest next time he is in, or Roar second if I predicted well, then Rest. Zapdos is one of the more offensive Mons on my team, so can do a fairly good job of picking off remnants, and obviously can absorb sleep. Note that even with a Cleric I still decided I needed a RestTalker, as I have found not only is sleep more abundant with no clause, but RestTalkers do an incredible job of stalling, especially with Pressure, and can be insanely hard to kill with some support. I chose Roar over another Attack as I disliked having Skarmory as my only Phazer.

    Possible other Leads:
    Show Hide

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    The two other leads I would replace Zapdos for are Gengar and Tyranitar, Gengar has nice coverage and amazing variety, whilst Tyranitar is a very offensive presence and Sandstorm deals nice residual damage, that both Skarmory and Claydol are immune to, however I dislike turning off my leftovers, and Sandstorm does make the game last quite a while (Its a lot slower to go through the animation). Breloom spreads sleep (unhindered by Sleep Clause) and gives me access to a Wallbreaker and leech Seed, however has almost no defensive bulk, relying on Leech Seed and Substitute. If I were to replace Zapdos as a lead (Not necessarily cut him from the team) these are the sets I would run:
    Gengar (Gengar) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 184 Atk / 136 SpA / 188 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Ice Punch
    - Focus Punch
    - Substitute
    A SubPunching, BoltBeaming Gengar, just what Ive always wanted, he Breaks Walls and dishes out damage, I might opt for a more standard Gengar but this little guy here has both my curiosity AND my attention.

    Tyranitar (Tyranitar) @ Leftovers
    Trait: SandStream
    EVs: 188 HP / 240 SpA / 80 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Pursuit
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Fire Blast
    - Ice Beam
    I love myself some Pursuit, and have wanted to use Pursuit for a very long time. I have never tried out this build for Tyranitar, usually going for a standard CB or DDTaunt set, however I saw this on Smogon and really want to try it out someday.

    Breloom (Breloom) @ Leftovers
    Trait: EffectSpore
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Focus Punch
    - Spore
    - Leech Seed
    - Substitute
    He sleeps things, then kills things, however will die to just about anything. If he can get set up he is almost unstoppable if not dealt with properly, however getting to that point is very difficult, not sure what to think on this guy.


    The Core:

    [​IMG]
    Skarmory (Skarmory) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Spikes
    - Whirlwind
    - Steel Wing
    - Rest
    Pretty standard set for him, he spikes, phazes, and thats about it. Sturdy and Rest, along with Steel Wing over HP Flying or Drill Peck, make him as defensive as possible, as really all he wants to do is Spikes, and Phaze, and not die. STAB Steel Wing can pick off some remnants, however mostly its just used when avaliable for the chance at a DEF boost. He is core and therefore will not be cut, unless a drastic (And i mean TRULY drastic) team redesign is made.

    [​IMG]
    Blissey (Blissey) @ Leftovers
    Trait: NaturalCure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
    Calm Nature
    - Aromatherapy
    - Softboiled
    - Toxic
    - Seismic Toss
    EV'd and Natured for Pure Special Defense, I am a tad worried about her dying to mixed attackers, so may revert to a more mixed defense (Forgoing HP EV's for DEF, and changing to a Def increasing Nature) other than that she takes Specials, Doesnt die, and toxic's things, all while keeping my team healthy.

    [​IMG]
    Claydol (Claydol) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpD
    Relaxed Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Earthquake
    - Psychic
    - Rest
    Spins away spikes, whilst taking almost no residual damage apart from the almost never seen Hail. I chose Rest over Hidden Power as id rather he stayed around than deal damage, and STAB Psychic and Earthquake already deal that quite well.

    The Rest:

    [​IMG]
    Dusclops (Dusclops) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 36 Atk / 20 Def / 200 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Seismic Toss
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Focus Punch
    - Rest
    He blocks Rapid Spinning, which is his main job, but also carries an unprotected Focus Punch to deal with Blissey's and the occasional predicted switch, and Rest to keep him around longer. I have thought of forgoing Focus Punch for Protect, to further PP-Stall and to block Explosion and such. I have also considered making him a RestTalker, freeing up Zapdo's slot. RestTalk Dusclops would probably be very similar, probably just replacing Focus Punch with Sleep Talk.

    Other RestTalkers:
    Show Hide

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Replacing (Or turning Dusclops into) Dusclops with a SleepTalker would free up a slot in Zapdos, letting me run another threat. If I were to replace Dusclops, I would either make Suicune a RestTalker, or import Metagross. Suicune frees up both an offensive slot AND another slot, so I can run both a harder hitting Offensive and another defensive Mon, however Metagross serves both roles decently.

    Metagross (Metagross) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 176 Atk / 40 Def / 32 SpD / 8 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Rest
    - SleepTalk
    - Meteor Mash
    - Earthquake
    He has very decent bulk, and can still hit hard, he is hard to kill and absorbs status for me. Im very tempted to run him, but Im not sure how well he would turn out IRL no matter how good he looks on Paper. He frees up a slot for something else though which is nice.

    Suicune (Suicune) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 60 SpA / 8 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Rest
    - SleepTalk
    - Calm Mind
    - Surf
    Frees up 2 slots on the team, and is still a semi-decent offensive presence even with this set. Pretty self explanatory, however loses coverage and the option to Phaze.


    [​IMG]
    Suicune (Suicune) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 60 SpA / 8 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Ice Beam
    - Surf
    - Rest
    Very offensive build here, Suicune dishes out damage at the end of the match, however still has a good bulk to back it up should I need it earlier. Considered forgoing Ice beam for Roar, giving me yet another Phazer however that seemed unnecessary. Pretty Standard set, nothing too much to explain.
    Possible Mons:
    Show Hide

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Gotta love Eevee's here, Whilst performing very similar roles, Vaporeon is probably the better choice as it is a bulky water type, that also can deal some damage with Surf, and give me another immunity (Through Water Absorb). Umbreon on the other hand gives me yet another PP-Staller, and is able to MeanLookPass in order to help me set up properly, or deal with certain troublesome Mons. He is also able to Charm to force switches. Both of these would require me to replace something else in order to make space for a more offensive presence
    Vaporeon (Vaporeon) @ Leftovers
    Trait: WaterAbsorb
    EVs: 248 HP / 228 Def / 32 SpD
    Bold Nature
    - Surf
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    Helps keep my team healthy, Screws over things with Protect, and can deal damage, probably the better option of the two, and really close to making the team.

    Umbreon (Umbreon) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Mean Look
    - Baton Pass
    - Moonlight
    - Taunt
    Helps to deal with threats better, and deals with opposing Skarmory with Taunt. Charm could be an option over Taunt to further inhibit trapped Mons.


    End:
    So that is my team, and the thought Process I went through when making it. Any suggestions or advice are greatly appreciated, I hope to be hearing from all of you.
  2. undisputed

    undisputed
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    Hey!

    Interesting stall team you've made so far. It's a very defensive team, which is obviously a good thing, but it's incredibly difficult to stall without entry hazards. Eventually your defenses will be worn down while you can't do enough damage yourself. To fix this, you're going to have to make some fundamental changes in your team structure. They are pretty basic, but I think your team will look a little different with them.

    First, I think Skarmory is a good alternative to Weezing. I've never been a huge fan of Weezing in ADV since it's pretty weak and has no reliable recovery move. Weezing is also prone to hit-and-run strategies if it is the main physical wall. It's just one of those Pokemon that is best used sparingly. Skarmory is arguably a better all around Defensive presence. From countering Curse Snorlax to DD Tyranitar, at the very least you'll be able to Whirlwind them out of the match. Furthermore, Skarmory will give you much needed Spikes support, limiting switches and set-up opportunities.

    Next, you mentioned wanting a Special wall, and I think that's a really good idea. Blissey offers you a lot of good walling opportunities if you use it over Umbreon. Umbreon strikes me as out of place because it just randomly Toxic Stalls other Pokemon and supports with Wish support. Blissey can do the exact same job, but it basically counters every single special threat in the metagame too. I'd use Wish / Protect / Ice Beam / Toxic for your moves. Use enough Def to not be 2HKO'd by CB Dugtrio, and you should be set.

    Finally, you should switch Porygon2 to Gengar. As a Ghost, Gengar performs the all important Spin Blocking role. All ADV Stall teams need a Ghost or a Tyranitar+Rapid Spin combination to avoid other defensive teams. Gengar can also add a little offensive-defensive presence. Ice Punch and Thunderbolt Coverage coupled with Spikes damage and Speed make Gengar a reasonably strong Offensive threat even on a Defensive team. I'd say you should use Thunderbolt / Ice Punch / Giga Drain or Hypnosis / WoW for your moves. Giga Drain and Hypnosis are really key for avoiding Pursuit Tyranitars.

    Finally, a couple move set touch ups for you. On Milotic, use Recover + Toxic instead of Rest/Sleep Talk. Heal Bell on Celebi makes Recover the far superior option. If you want to run Haze over Toxic, you can do that too, but I think Toxic hits more threats more consistently. You also have Celebi for Last Pokemon Sweepers like Suicune.

    On Jirachi, use Fire Punch over Thunder for sure. You have a lot of Toxic users, so Thunder's payoff is limited. You'd rather have other Pokemon Toxic'd anyway is my guess. Fire Punch beats the annoying Steel and Grass types like Metagross, Forretress, Skarmory, and Celebi to name a few. You have a lot of Tyranitar coverage with Milotic and Skarmory now, so you should be able to wear it down with Spikes.

    Good luck!
  3. AraShaun

    AraShaun

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Thanks for your advice, it's greatly appreciated

    I do like most of the advice, I am a bit wary to cut Umbreon though, I am aware that it is probably for the best, but I have been very happy with Umbreon so far, if I were to keep it, what changes would you make to it's moveset and EV spread? I'm not debating your advice, I just personally would rather run Umbreon over Blissey

    Overall I really liked your advice, I will make most of the changes as soon as possible, thank you :)
  4. BKC

    BKC Outstanding ideas,
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis Smogon Frontier's Castle Valetis a Past WCoP Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 16 Champion
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    Moved to the appropriate subforum.
  5. AraShaun

    AraShaun

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    Bumping for Updated Team
  6. Awoken

    Awoken

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    Generally resistances aren't as important in ADV as in later gens. You can wall many things through stats alone, since attacks don't hit as hard. Blissey can handle pretty much any electric, but I agree that having three electric weaknesses is too much. Most ADV teams need either a rock resist or a Dugtrio lest Tyranitar run through them, and this is no exception. Registeel isn't really a good Tyranitar, Metagross, or Salamence counter, since most run Earthquake as a coverage move and can just switch out. Additionally, its terribly weak, and can't do much to its switch-ins. Skarmory does the same thing Registeel does, but better, so it seems quite redundant. You also have no answer to CM Jirachi, besides Haze Vaporeon which is a really shaky check. Like many Skarmbliss teams, you are weak to a trapper combination of Dugtrio and Magneton. In fact, the two of them alone could probably sweep your team.

    Quick fix: Claydol > Starmie. You get your spinner, rock resist (although Claydol loses to HP Bug Tyranitar), electric immunity and Jirachi check all at once. I would use the Rapid Spin / Earthquake / Psychic / Explosion set, seeing as you have enough Salamence and Flygon counters.

    Even then, you have no offense whatsoever so you will lose to last poke Curselax regardless. A solution could be CBTyranitar > Registeel, Gengar > Dusclops, Suicune > Vaporeon, but then you have a bog standard stall team. For a new player I would recommend having an offensive focus to base your team around, whether it be Dragon Dance Tyranitar or Calm Mind Suicune so you won't just sit around stalling your inevitable loss. Look at the 3rd gen team archive and see what successful teams look like. Look at the R/S Threat List. Granted there isn't much 3rd gen analysis on Smogon, but that should be a good starting point.

    Kudos to you for starting with ADV though. It's really the best competitive generation in terms of skill, variety, and potential for innovation.
  7. AraShaun

    AraShaun

    Joined:
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    Thank You for your advice. I will be switching out Starmie for Claydol ASAP, and I will be switching Vapoureon for CMSuicune (Vapoureon turned out to be lackluster anyway) I would like to ask however, will Tyranitars Sand Stream hurt my team too much? I though about running him but the thought of cancelling my leftovers sounded unappealing, what is your experience with that?

    Thank you for your advice though
  8. AraShaun

    AraShaun

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    Bumping for update:
    Switched CBTar for DDTar with Pursuit
    Switched Dusclops for Gengar
  9. Ernesto

    Ernesto is a motionless pedophile
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    Hi! Nice team. I think you should run Whirlwind on Skarm instead of Roar—and HP Flying instead of Drill Peck, given the latter is illegal with WW—, I know Baton Pass chains aren't too common since Ingrain Smeargle was banned, but it's nice to have a foolproof answer to them, and Whirlwind is usually the better option because of Soundproof Mr. Mime.
    That's the first thing I could think of, when I find something else I'll give a more thorough rate.
  10. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    I don't think Pursuit really works on DDTar. You're not going to really be using it since your aim with Tyranitar will mainly be to smash things and find an opening to set up. However, Taunt is outdated, go with a coverage move like HP Bug so Claydol doesn't wall you and Celebi gets taken down quickly.
  11. Awoken

    Awoken

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    I agree with Jorgen that Pursuit doesn't work on DDTar... what if the Gengar decides to status you before going down? Some more defensively inclined Gengar could probably even live the Pursuit and switch out. HP Bug is probably your best bet.

    Concerning Drill Peck/Roar vs HP Flying/Whirlwind, full Baton Pass teams are thankfully quite rare with the banning of Ingrain Smeargle. No one respectable would use it unless they are really desperate for wins (in a major tournament). Anyhow, Whirlwind isn't doing you much more good than Roar, as the typical Baton Pass team has multiple ways of preventing phazing with Skarmory, whether it be faster Taunts, Roars or Spores. Faster taunts pretty much prevent you from dealing with Baton Pass the "normal" way by using Roar/Whirlwind, Perish Song, Haze, etc., the latter two of which aren't very common anyway.

    In short, I wouldn't worry too much about Baton Pass. A well-played Baton Pass team can destroy nearly any team that isn't specifically a Baton Pass counter team with no thought at all.
  12. AraShaun

    AraShaun

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    Thanks everyone.
    @Jorgen and Awoken, I had a few games and found Pursuit to be very lackluster :/ I'm going to switch it out for HP Bug soon.
    I havent really worried about Baton Pass tbh as I dont see it, so Roar is fine at the moment
  13. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    CBtar or HP bug DDtar seems a better option.
    Gengar needs Hypnosis or Wow. You should relace Taunt or Giga Drain.
    You could also consider IB bliss because gengar might be annoying
  14. AraShaun

    AraShaun

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    Re-wrote OP, changed team somewhat
  15. Toby

    Toby

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    Ingrain Smeargle was banned? Complex bans in my precious 386 metagame? As a player who only played competitively during 386 play and never again, this kind of reverse engineering irks me somewhat. I'm presuming there had to be alot of people suddenly running BP? Was it a way for those who didn't know ADV at all to rack up easy wins or something? It sounds ridiculous to my old, withering ears.

    Bring back the R/S bots I say! GUI is to complex for me! Rah rah rah.

    PS: to actually contribute and not look like a total nob, since your running Spikes on Skarm, you could try making Suicune having Roar over Ice Beam and giving Blissey Ice Beam, really try and abuse spikes.

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