Lower Tiers ADV Little Cup

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Fiend

someguy
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LC Leader
Pineco: Pineco is a the best Spikes setter imo (usually). It can layer spikes on pretty much everything that lacks Taunt or Explosion. Can support the team with Reflect or Light Screen as well or simply go BOOM!! in something's face for the KO. Also has spin which can be cool if not used as a lead, but largely unnecessary. Still, the option is there.

Onix:
If only it had SR, then it could have a better niche. Sturdy functioning differently, a lackluster typing, and a small attack stat makes Onix really unappealing. Completely agree with dropping it down a bit.

Rhyhorn:
On paper at least, it looks like a worse Onix. Can't really comment on it besides that though; haven't played with it at all, yet. However what has been said about it seems like how it would work. It looks like a worse Onix

Ponyta: I've played a little bit with SunnyBeam Ponyta and have actually found it surprisingly decent. For the reasons Levi has given above, B+ seems adequate.

Porygon: Porygon is as fun as always. Pretty decent move pool, though normally it isn't wise to delve too far into it. Also has a nice BST to back up the movepool and the ability to remove Diglett and Trapinch for the team is stellar. A+ is perfect.
 

Aerow

rebel
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Unless someone disagrees, following changes will be made tomorrow:

Pineco up from A- rank to A rank
Onix down from B rank to C+ rank
Rhyhorn down from C+ rank to C rank
Ponyta up from B rank to B+ rank
Porygon up from A rank to A+ rank
 

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
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great job making the changes Aerow

Anyways, I have actually found Diglett to be quite manageable; it will almost always result in nothing more than a 141 with the use of Trapinch and/or Porygon support, both of which have many, many uses outside of beating Diglett. This means that through the use of two Diglett-weak Pokemon, one Diglett-weak Pokemon is free to do whatever it pleases, so these nominations will reflect this to an extent.
Of course, this is by no means saying that Diglett should be moved down from S because getting just the right 141s is really good if the opposing team isn't prepared.

Chinchou -> A
Chinchou is actually very useful, and Diglett can't stop it from checking important threats anyway because Diglett can't switch in. Chinchou has a phenomenal match-up against the vast majority of the metagame, with only the bulky normal-types (and Diglett) being common Pokemon that are able to hold their own, since grass-types outside of Cacnea leads are quite rare. This makes it an excellent check to a ridiculous number of Pokemon and fairly difficult to switch into. There's really not much to say; Chinchou's typing, both offensively and defensively, work in conjunction with its ability and good overall stats to produce a straight-forward but extremely effective Pokemon.
Ponyta -> A-
As I explained in my nomination for it going into B+, Ponyta is probably the best dedicated win condition available in ADV LC with its Sunnybeam set, which basically has 0 safe and viable switch-ins. After Wailmer, Ponyta is probably the single most threatening Pokemon offensively; if it gets a Substitute or Agility up, not even Diglett can stop it.
Anorith -> D or C-
The lack of Fighting- or Steel-types is a huge boon for Anorith's offensive presence; even though its STAB moves are weak, its enormous Attack stat usually makes up for it. A Swords Dance set can take advantage of its high base speed and attack to pose as a fairly potent sweeper.
 
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Aerow

rebel
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Finally did the changes in post #52 now, sorry for being extremely late, I've been without a PC for a while, but I finally managed to lend one for a sec, so it should be updated now.

I also agree with moving Chinchou, Ponyta, and Anorith up, so I did these changes too since it looks like no one disagreed.

Ponyta B+ -> A-
Chinchou A- -> A
Anorith E -> C-
 
Sunny. , here's another (really late) lead.

Wailmer @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Water Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 200 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Wailmer is one of the best pokemon in ADV LC. There are many things in ADV that it benefits from such as the Sitrus Berry boost, and ADV having no Eviolite or anything that improves a pokemon's bulk. Wailmer is also a very good lead since it can deal with many leads such as KOing the standard Pineco. Water Spout is an excellent STAB that will definitely make many dents to your opponent's team in your battles. Also, due to Wailmer's large HP stat, Wailmer can take a hit and restore its HP using its Sitrus Berry and then spam Water Spout. Surf is a also a good STAB for Wailmer in case you're at low HP and Water Spout will do less damage due to that. Ice Beam is also coverage for grass types such as Exeggcute and Cacnea. Hidden Power Grass is also another coverage move for water types such as Chinchou and Clamperl, two pokes that are very threatening in ADV LC. Wailmer is a really terrifying lead with its fantastic capabilities.​
 

Aerow

rebel
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Since many of the previous council members now have returned, it's time to start the long-awaited and extremely delayed Diglett suspect test! :]


Why is Diglett being suspected?

Diglett is being suspected for two main reasons:
- It is able to hit 20 speed, allowing it to act as a solid user of the only Choice-item in ADV LC, Choice Band.
- Thanks to Arena Trap and its high Speed stat in a metagame without Sticky Web or Choice Scarf, Diglett can easily trap, revenge kill and OHKO a variety of threats, such as Chinchou, Ponyta, Abra, Kabuto, Larvitar, and a number of frailer Pokemon.

Because of a combination of these two traits, Diglett's presence in the metagame arguably reduces opportunities for experimentation in teams by making specific Pokemon in ADV Little Cup less viable, namely certain Fire-, Rock-, and Electric-types, as well as frail sweepers such as Poliwag and Anorith. Diglett almost guarantees a free kill if played well, and forces many 50/50's. In addition, due to the lack of Team Preview, you are almost forced to expect the opponent to have Diglett.

How will the suspect test work?

The suspect test starts today (the 30th of November) and will end on the 9th of December 11 AM GMT+0. During this week, we will discuss whether Diglett is broken or not. The current members of the council will then vote on whether Diglett should be banned. Even if you are not currently a member of the council, you can still join the council by being active in this thread and demonstrating that you possess adequate knowledge of ADV Little Cup. The amount of votes required to ban Diglett will depend on how many council members we have when the voting starts.

Current council that will be able to vote:

 
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#First
I used to play ADV LC a looot in the past and of course i know how dangerous is Diglett. That small cute pokemon is an awesome choice to have on any type of team, with an excellent speed stat or 20 and a really useful ability in Arena Trap. Yes, it is so useful because it lets the player have free kills if well-played. Here in ADV LC, the issue is that there are too many pokemon ..hum let's say.. victims just like Voltorb, Elekid, Anorith, Chinchou, Ponyta and more!
When equiped with a Choice band, it becomes a terrifying pokemon with the necessary power to dominate the metagame, while we want ADV LC to be a balanced meta with no broken shit over there.
Now let's talk about the no team preview, that just makes Diglett more scary.. You are unable to see the rest of your opponent's team so you will always predict Diglett right there. That's why it forces too many 50/50s. You will always try to avoid geting trapped, because it pretty much offers your opponent a free kill.
To be honest, i want Diglett to get out from this awesome tier. It's high speed and Choice Band boosted attacks makes the whole metagame cry, and makes playing ADV LC less fun..
So please, ban Diglett so we can play a fun meta!
 
i've never really even noticed Diglett.............like it's frail and still relatively weak and is a free switch in after a revenge kill - being locked into Earthquake is always bad.

i mean if someone wants to convince me otherwise throw me a challenge but I can't see Diglett being that bad.
 

Fiend

someguy
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LC Leader
As much as I hate it, Diglett falls short of meeting the requirements to be broken. It can't sweep really, but it is able to support its teams well. It has memento which allows things to set up as well as potentially remove counters and annoying mons, yet in practice it fails to single handily win games frequently for me. It is one of the best if not the best rk'ers in the meta though. However, to a small extent, I find Diglett makes ADV rather unenjoyable. With most teams packing Diglett it greatly reduces what pokemon I can use. And having the ability to bypass having what counts as a counters, it makes Diglett really limit teambuilding. I can't use 3 mons who lose to Diglett yet are otherwise partially viable thanks to Arena Trap forcing me to keep them in. Yet Diglett can be played around since all it runs is CB.


 
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Diglett being banned or not has been really controversial for me. Albeit Diglett is one terrifying revenge killer, its flaws might set it back from being banned. When you want to switch in Diglett to kill and trap your opponent, you most likely will get KO'd on the switch due to Diglett's really fragile defenses. This will result in you most likely sacrificing one of your team members to get Diglett in safely. But, Diglett is really good in ADV LC. The ability to trap and KO most of the meta is amazing and Memento on it like Fiend Hound mentioned can be really helpful for Diglett's allies.

Diglett does restrict teambuilding and you most likely have to put one or two Diglett checks. It also hinders from ADV LC players to use mons that have hindered viability due to Diglett's presence. But being locked into one move because of its most common item can give you a big advantage.

You can play around Diglett since no team preview lets your opponent not know what the rest of your team is and will most likely choose to be locked into a move that one of your team members can resist. It can also give you free setup from it.

Overall, Diglett is a great mon in ADV LC and it's really powerful and fast, but it does suffer from being locked into one of your moves and how much you need to sacrifice in order for it to be an amazing revenge killer.
 
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Aerow

rebel
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Time to share my personal opinions too:

Diglett is far from being very broken, which is the reason we didn't quickban Diglett, and didn't feel the need to suspect it asap.

First of all, not all archetypes are hurt as badly by Diglett, for example Bulky Offense, which have more space to fit in counters such as Trapinch, Shroomish, Exeggcute (hates HP Bug tho, but can switch into EQ) etc. However, on more offensive teams, Diglett can be a huge pain. Ponyta needs to set up both Agility and Sunny Day to sweep, Poliwag needs Diglett gone since it only hits 19 Speed (same for Anorith).

All sweepers that can't afford to run a Speed-boosting move needs to have Diglett gone, and without Team Preview you can't really know if the opponent actually doesn't have Diglett, or he is just waiting with using it. Then you have Pokemon such as Chinchou, Onix, Rhyhorn who can't do their job as well, always needing to play safe. Say if you OHKO something with Chinchou, Diglett comes in, and Chinchou is gone. Yes, you will lose momentum with Diglett after you have KOed Chinchou being locked into Earthquake, however, Diglett can then easily switch out to a bulky and reliable wall such as Porygon, Duskull etc, and be ready to revengekill more at a later point. Personally I feel Diglett is that strong and fast, it hurts the meta. With Spikes support Diglett OHKOes almost the entire meta, including two of the most bulky Pokemon in ADV LC, such as Porygon and Wailmer.

Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Porygon: 17-21 (70.8 - 87.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes

Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Wailmer: 22-27 (73.3 - 90%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes


Diglett is basically an amazing revengekiller if used well, is incredibly fast due to 20 Speed in a meta without Choice Scarf, Sticky Web etc, and is also really powerful with Choice Band. Currently I feel Diglett is somewhat broken, and makes ADV LC a less fun metagame, but I can easily get convinced otherwise.
 
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Nineage

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Diglett is fast, reasonably powerful, and has a great ability letting it trap and revenge kill powerful threats in the metagame. These features give it a good match against most offensive teams, and is quite difficult to play around. The best argument I can see for letting something with these traits stay in the meta is that it can be reliably countered.
However, countering diglett is hard. First, the lack of team preview makes it so you don't know whether an opponent has diglett, and forces you to play very conservatively with your counters, because usually if you let your counter to it die, it can outspeed and sweep your team (as Aerow said above, even some of ADV's bulkiest pokemon lose to diglett after spikes). Secondly, diglett has few reliable checks, and the checks it has either don't fit well into many team archetypes, such as shroomish on offense, can be predicted and worked around, such as Exeggcute getting hit by HP bug, or just plain aren't very good otherwise. The fear of diglett forces people to make a spot on their teams for one of its few counters, which otherwise could go to something which helps the team with something else, or hinders their playstyle. This is called limiting teambuilding, and is not good for the meta.
If you DONT have a diglett counter, you are in trouble. Lets look at how diglett fares against the meta's S and A ranks after just one layer of spikes:
S Rank:
Elekid and opposing Diglett have to rely on a speed tie, because they both get OHKOd
Wailmer takes huge amounts of damage if running a standard set, with a 37% chance to OHKO after just 1 layers of spikes unless running a set with extra physical bulk, and even that doesnt like switching into Diglett
A Rank:
Horsea is OHKOd after spikes 87% of the time
Porygon and Snubbull are 3HKOd with a sitrus berry, but will lose to diglett on the switch in, and can be OHKOd with just 2 layers of spikes. Also, both are easily worn down
Voltorb relies on a speed tie, and is solidly OHKOd
Chinchou is easily outsped and OHKOd
Pineco is 3HKOd with sitrus berry, but can't do much to diglett other than explode.
Staryu is outsped and OHKOd
Doduo is OHKOd if Diglett uses rock slide
Ponyta is easily OHKOd

It can be noted that everything considered to be a reliable Diglett counter is not in S or A ranks, but people are forced to run it anyway and save it throughout the battle JUST IN CASE the opponent has diglett.

So yeah, unless someone can convince me otherwise I think Diglett is broken
 
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Ok so I don't have a ton of experience playing ADV LC, but I would like to talk about Diglett real quick. I'm really in the fence about whether or not Diglett actually qualifies as broken, or if it's just really good. On the pro ban side, since it hits 20 speed and Choice Scarf doesn't exist in ADV, and the fact that it has Arena Trap, Diglett makes for easily the best Revenge killer in the meta. However, Diggy is also extremely frail, which i guess is ok for a revenge killer, but this makes it really hard to switch in. Plus you can argue that because so many people run Diglett checks, the meta has adapted to the point where it isn't overpowering. So yeah, I'm basically 50/50 on whether or not it should be banned. I'll get some more games in and hopefully actually decide on a sids by the 9th lol.
 

Nineage

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Ok so I don't have a ton of experience playing ADV LC, but I would like to talk about Diglett real quick. I'm really in the fence about whether or not Diglett actually qualifies as broken, or if it's just really good. On the pro ban side, since it hits 20 speed and Choice Scarf doesn't exist in ADV, and the fact that it has Arena Trap, Diglett makes for easily the best Revenge killer in the meta. However, Diggy is also extremely frail, which i guess is ok for a revenge killer, but this makes it really hard to switch in. Plus you can argue that because so many people run Diglett checks, the meta has adapted to the point where it isn't overpowering. So yeah, I'm basically 50/50 on whether or not it should be banned. I'll get some more games in and hopefully actually decide on a sids by the 9th lol.
It doesn't matter that diglett is frail because priority is rare, nothing outspeeds it, and it can OHKO many offensive threats before they can hit it anyway. Defensive threats in ADV just aren't bulky enough to wear it down before getting KOd, even if it is frail.
 
It doesn't matter that diglett is frail because priority is rare, nothing outspeeds it, and it can OHKO many offensive threats before they can hit it anyway. Defensive threats in ADV just aren't bulky enough to wear it down before getting KOd, even if it is frail.
tbf when I was talking about it's frailty I was reffering to the fact that you really can't switch it in on hits. But I do see where your coming from. Dig is pretty good *_*
 

Nineage

Pugnacious.
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tbf when I was talking about it's frailty I was reffering to the fact that you really can't switch it in on hits. But I do see where your coming from. Dig is pretty good *_*
See Dig doesnt need to switch in on hits. Its job is to come in after a pokemon has fainted, trap and revenge kill, and then proceed to do as much damage as it can until it needs to switch out.
 
See Dig doesnt need to switch in on hits. Its job is to come in after a pokemon has fainted, trap and revenge kill, and then proceed to do as much damage as it can until it needs to switch out.
Yeah your right, I'm trying to apply stuff that shouldnt be applied dig because of its role. Diglett is stupid, I'm starting to see why people want it gone
 

Aerow

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Okay so, there's one incredibly useful thing for Diglett I don't think many of us have thought about, Slow Baton Pass.

U-turn and Volt Switch doesn't exist in ADV LC as we all know, however, I think most of us have totally forgotten about slow Baton Pass, which basically works in the excact same way. Why is this incredibly useful for Diglett? It helps Diglett with its biggest problem, switching in. With slow Baton Pass, Diglett can get safely in without taking any damage at all, and trapping, outspeeding and KOing the opponent. Say in a situation where you have Ledyba vs Chinchou. Chinchou uses Thunderbolt, Ledyba survives and slow baton passes to Diglett which can then easily OHKOing Chinchou. The opponent has a weakened Wailmer? Survive the Water Spout, Baton Pass to Diglett, trap and KO. Did the opponent switch out? Well, now you have lots of momentum. The same goes for a number of other Pokemon. Diglett together with Baton Pass support is extremely scary if played well. There's a number of other viable slow baton passers too, here's a list of all Pokemon that gets Baton Pass in ADV LC:

Eevee, Ledyba, Natu, Sentret, Skitty, Spearow, Spinarak, Surskit, Togepi, Torchic, Venonat

Also just to clarify, I'm not talking about a Baton Pass chain-ish team, but basically just give Diglett slow Baton Pass support, like U-turn support in XY LC. A slow Baton Pass Pokemon can easily be fit in on most team archetypes, and have many other uses than slowpassing to Diglett.
 
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mad0ka

華々しい
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I'm going to be hipster and say that Diglett does not deserve a ban. Yes, it hits kinda hard with choice band and has a blazing 20 speed, but because it depends so much on choice band, and lacks power if it's not holding it, Diglett is very easily worked around. It, because of its incredible frailty, is required to come in on a death. Then, after it itself kills something, three situations arise: one, your team is bad and you haven't prepared for Diglett so you lose, two, you send in a reverse trapper like porygon or trapinch that can subsequently trap and kill Diglett, or three, you send in something that can set up on the move that was just used, for example Horsea (assuming not many entry hazards), Ledyba or Doduo after EQ, or Larvitar after anything else. Diglett is an amazing mon, but for the most part it's about a 1for1.5 mon that can really kill momentum on your side. I do agree, however, that the amount of 50/50s it can cause is annoying.
 

fran17

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Diglett actually deserves a ban, he's the fastest mon in the meta, a meta that doesn't have many priorities, choice scarf and sticky web. Access to EdgeQuake and HP Bug for coverage make him the best revenge killer in the meta.
Also we can't talk of counters because Arena Trap prevents switch, so Diglett can only be revenge killed by something that doesn't die from the move he's locked on.
 

Aerow

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I've been testing slowpass now for a bit, and it does indeed work really well. Spinarak, Togepi and Ledyba are all slowpassers that works really well. Ledyba and Togepi can run a variety of different set, but here's a Spinarak set that works really well:



Spinarak @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Insomnia
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Signal Beam
- Sludge Bomb
- Thief
- Baton Pass

Spinarak with fully invested defensive EVs is surprisingly bulky. Signal Beam and Sludge Bomb are both strong STAB moves with some nifty secondary effects, Thief is amazing and allows Spinarak to not only remove Sitrus Berries, but also heal itself after its own Sitrus Berry is being used. Slow Baton Pass is great for momentum, and means Spinarak can get Diglett safely in against threats like Chinchou, Pineco, Porygon, Wailmer, Staryu, etc etc to trap and KO.

196 SpA Wailmer Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 196 HP / 196+ SpD Spinarak: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236+ SpA Porygon Psychic vs. 196 HP / 196+ SpD Spinarak: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Here's also a replay of Diglett doing tremendous amount of work. The team was fairly weak to Diglett, but Diglett didn't need too much support either: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3oubeta-188216360

Another one against a fairly standard ADV LC team, showing how Spinarak + Diglett works: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3oubeta-188232111
 
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Alright so after playing quite a bit more of ADV recently, I've made up my mind about Diglett. I believe that Diglett should be banned. This thing is absolutely disgusting in the meta, and it seriously needs to GTFO. Forewarning, this post will likely be super long lol.

So just looking at Diglett's attributes at face value, this thing is pretty good. Firstly, it hits 20 Speed. This means Diglett reaches the highest speed tier, meaning it only ties with two other mons; Voltorb and Elekid. Because both Diglett can OHKO both of them and vice versa, this makes for one of the most unfun experiences in ADV LC imo, because you have absolutely no control over it, it's literally a coin flip (Aerow can attest to this, he hates it). This speed issue honestly wouldn't be as bad if not for Diglett's second most dangerous trait: Arena Trap. Because of this ability, Diglett is able to perform a role literally no other Pokemon in ADV LC can. It's ability to effectively trap and kill something is almost unreal. One might argue that Trapinch fills a similar niche due to it to possessing Arena Trap, but you almost can't even compare them. Diglett's combination of speed and Arena Trap, in conjunction with it's ability to effectively utilize the item Choice Band, make Diglett an extremely powerful Pokemon that is both functional and exceptionally strong.

Well we've looked at how good Diglett is on paper, but how effective is it actually when in practice? After playing some ADV, I can safely say that Diglett is every bit as good as it would seem to be. It's such an incredible Pokemon, there is almost no reason not to run it on your team. At worst, Diglett will almost always kill at least 1 mon. Aerow's post about SlowPass is 100% accurate, considering how hard it is to actually stop Diglett when it consistently gets into play for free. It's so disgustingly easy to get kills with it when you get it in for free. Diglett is seriously gross in ADV.

So TL;DR: Diglett is broken in ADV. It's combination of Arena Trap and Speed make it the best damn revenge killer in the meta. It would be way more manageable if Choice Scarf and Eviolite existed, but since they don't, this thing is borked af. Ban Diglett.
 
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I'm not gonna make a long post about Diglett, but I've talked individually with a few people and I'm starting to think a Diglett ban would be best for the meta. I don't necessarily think it is ridiculously overpowered (sure it's a good revenge killer, but it's weak without choice band, and can be setup fodder if it is choice locked). What makes Diglett stupid for the meta is the speed ties it forces, Elekid vs. Diglett and Voltorb vs. Diglett are some of the dumbest matchups in the meta, as it leaves the situation decided by a coinflip and potentially sheer guesswork (will Diglett switch out, do I go for Tbolt?), leaving the Elekid/Voltorb user at a disadvantage. Not to mention it makes a whole slew of slower offensive mons flat out ineffective, as anything like Abra and Ponyta will be limited to one kill before they are easily rk'd by Diglett. In short, Diglett is making the meta unfun imo, and a ban would increase the viability of several mons, while also removing the cancerous Diglett vs. Elekid/Voltorb matchup.

On another note, Aerow brought up slow baton passers recently, so I've been trying this one out.


Venonat @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Compound Eyes
Level: 5
EVs: 196 HP / 36 Def / 36 SpA / 236 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Sleep Powder
- Thief
- Giga Drain
- Baton Pass

Kinda like Spinarak. It can tank hits from several common special attackers, heal back to full with Sitrus, then put them to sleep with a 97.5% accurate Sleep Powder. Thief lets it take Sitrus away from switchins. Giga gives it more healing and lets it fare better vs. Waters, and of course the slow Baton Pass gives you hella momentum once you're done with Venonat's shenanigans.
 

GlassGlaceon

My heart has now been set on love
i would normally go on this thread and trashtalk because its an irrelevant, overcentralised tier and approximately a whole 5 people will care about a suspect. THEN I saw it was about Diglett and I decided I would give my two cents on it from the short amount of time i played this boring, diglett infested tier.

Diglett is not broken. Diglett actually has a huge opportunity cost for running the best set, that being the choice set. I've seen soft sand but only slightly boosting one move is really dumb and diglett is really weak on its other moves without CB.

Diglett is one of, if not THE best revenge killer in the metagame on paper. 20 speed, a good STAB in earthquake, relatively strong with a choice band...what's there not to like? Being locked into moves, that's what.

Mole's biggest problem in practice is the fact that without being one of the most underwhelming revenge killers in the tier, it has to lock itself into a move to rk things. This can be potentially dangerous and momentum-shifting, as different moves allow different possibilities for an opponent. They could get up free rain if you aren't locked into EQ, wailmer could fire off one of it's many powerful attacks, Doduo could pop out an agility, larvitar could set up a free Dragon Dance, and much, much more. Yes it does do it's job as a revenge killer effectively well but only with the choice item, which helps it and really holds it back at the same time. This really imo balances diglett as a mon and i've never had a problem losing a mon when the next guy i bring in can wreak havoc

The main problem i have with diglett is because its overcentralising as crap. It's the reason i didnt continue playing ADV, and honestly what coud hold it back from becoming a nice, enjoyable tier. As unbroken as it is, I really want it gone. A lot. Most every team has one to get a free kill, and although I feel it's easy to handle, apparently no one else feels the same and they continue to use and worship it like it's the best mon in the tier, which imo it isnt.

Maybe words from some soggy old washed-out player who played ADV not very long, but i'd still like to speak up for an anti-ban side

NO BAN n_n
 
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