Lower Tiers ADV Little Cup

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i would normally go on this thread and trashtalk because its an irrelevant, overcentralised tier and approximately a whole 5 people will care about a suspect. THEN I saw it was about Diglett and I decided I would give my two cents on it from the short amount of time i played this boring, diglett infested tier.

Diglett is not broken. Diglett actually has a huge opportunity cost for running the best set, that being the choice set. I've seen soft sand but only slightly boosting one move is really dumb and diglett is really weak on its other moves without CB.

Diglett is one of, if not THE best revenge killer in the metagame on paper. 20 speed, a good STAB in earthquake, relatively strong with a choice band...what's there not to like? Being locked into moves, that's what.

Mole's biggest problem in practice is the fact that without being one of the most underwhelming revenge killers in the tier, it has to lock itself into a move to rk things. This can be potentially dangerous and momentum-shifting, as different moves allow different possibilities for an opponent. They could get up free rain if you aren't locked into EQ, wailmer could fire off one of it's many powerful attacks, Doduo could pop out an agility, larvitar could set up a free Dragon Dance, and much, much more. Yes it does do it's job as a revenge killer effectively well but only with the choice item, which helps it and really holds it back at the same time. This really imo balances diglett as a mon and i've never had a problem losing a mon when the next guy i bring in can wreak havoc

The main problem i have with diglett is because its overcentralising as crap. It's the reason i didnt continue playing ADV, and honestly what coud hold it back from becoming a nice, enjoyable tier. As unbroken as it is, I really want it gone. A lot. Most every team has one to get a free kill, and although I feel it's easy to handle, apparently no one else feels the same and they continue to use and worship it like it's the best mon in the tier, which imo it isnt.

Maybe words from some soggy old washed-out player who played ADV not very long, but i'd still like to speak up for an anti-ban side

NO BAN n_n
So first, I agree with Diglett not being broken. It has many flaws : it is frail af, it must hold a choice band due to somehow weak Attack stat (:/) so meeting the risk of getting locked into a move, which offers the opponent free turns. Yes, GlassGlaceon, I agree with all these points right here BUT you should never forget how scary and hella dangerous if it is well-played (and i think it is the case with all ADV LC players here).

I mean, you can dominate full offensive teams with Diglett. You can surprise some players and get a free kill every time Diggy comes in. We did never think that it is broken in this meta. However, all what it does is removing fun from ADV LC, and i severely desagree with this. We want some competitive games with great plays and cool teams, we can't have that small monster on all of our teams, so that our plays will be limited to some obvious Diglett switch-ins and free kills. "I asked Aerow, and he is fine with banning something if it makes ADV LC less enjoyable.

Second thing i really don't think this metagame is boring. Just play it, stick to it, build teams, talk with council members about suspects and other projects etc.. and i guarantee it would be so funny to try out another tier, some old mechanics, discover other items (at least a meta without Eviolite!).. Trust me, it was a great thing to join council and play with friends!

finally , I would like to invite people having different opinions to share them with me, so we can discuss and agree on something. Leaving this to Aerow!

edit: ooops i didn't realise i added the @ before finally :[ I'm not used to computer keyboards, sorry baby..
 
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If you haven't had to put up with dualtrap then you obviously haven't played enough :))))

But really guys, Diglett's the fastest mon in the meta, capable of revenge killing nearly anything on the ground with a boosted Earthquake. With the lack of eviolite, diglett's presence is far stronger. there's little in terms of pressuring diglett because of the shitty priority distribution, shit birds outside of dodo, and much more. Diglett does not usually provide a means for set up, as stuff like larvitar can't take an EQ and Agilitymons are beaten by bulky mons like pory and wailmer.

Oh and its presence is making it virtually impossible to run a bird check/ normalspam checks/rock types in general/ electric types not named elekid

Also fuck running trapinch on every team to deal with it. that's so bullshit.

I might actually provide a coherent paragraph or i'll just add on to aerow's reasoning before idk. But my vote is to Ban
 
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Since many of the previous council members now have returned, it's time to start the long-awaited and extremely delayed Diglett suspect test! :]


Why is Diglett being suspected?

Diglett is being suspected for two main reasons:
- It is able to hit 20 speed, allowing it to act as a solid user of the only Choice-item in ADV LC, Choice Band.
- Thanks to Arena Trap and its high Speed stat in a metagame without Sticky Web or Choice Scarf, Diglett can easily trap, revenge kill and OHKO a variety of threats, such as Chinchou, Ponyta, Abra, Kabuto, Larvitar, and a number of frailer Pokemon.

Because of a combination of these two traits, Diglett's presence in the metagame arguably reduces opportunities for experimentation in teams by making specific Pokemon in ADV Little Cup less viable, namely certain Fire-, Rock-, and Electric-types, as well as frail sweepers such as Poliwag and Anorith. Diglett almost guarantees a free kill if played well, and forces many 50/50's. In addition, due to the lack of Team Preview, you are almost forced to expect the opponent to have Diglett.

How will the suspect test work?

The suspect test starts today (the 30th of November) and will end on the 8th of December 11 PM GMT+0. During this week, we will discuss whether Diglett is broken or not. The current members of the council will then vote on whether Diglett should be banned. Even if you are not currently a member of the council, you can still join the council by being active in this thread and demonstrating that you possess adequate knowledge of ADV Little Cup. The amount of votes required to ban Diglett will depend on how many council members we have when the voting starts.

Current council that will be able to vote:

1. wtf why is tfs council i beat him in literally my second adv lc battle ever smfh (jk tfs ily)

2. From what little I've played, I definitely think Diglett is ban-worthy.

Here's a list of Pokemon that Diglett can beat:
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Diglett: 26-31 (152.9 - 182.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 28, 28, 28, 29, 29, 29, 30, 30, 30, 31)
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Elekid: 47-56 (223.8 - 266.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(47, 48, 48, 49, 49, 50, 50, 51, 52, 52, 53, 53, 54, 54, 55, 56) elekid has 50% chance to win, diggy has 50% chance to beat diggy lol
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Wailmer: 23-28 (76.6 - 93.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes
(23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 28) wailmer can only switch in if it's undamaged
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Horsea: 17-21 (89.4 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20, 21) aerow says 0/36 is standard spread
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Porygon: 18-22 (78.2 - 95.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes
(18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22) not good odds
-1 Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Snubbull: 15-18 (68.1 - 81.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
(15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18) if this thing gets weakened/diggy switches in on it, snubbull gets to die
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Voltorb: 45-54 (225 - 270%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(45, 46, 46, 47, 48, 48, 49, 49, 50, 50, 51, 51, 52, 52, 53, 54) 50% chance to win speedtie
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Chinchou: 35-42 (140 - 168%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(35, 36, 36, 36, 37, 37, 38, 38, 39, 39, 39, 40, 40, 41, 41, 42) even 76/212+ gets ohkoed
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Pineco: 15-18 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18) maybe pineco has something to do outside of suicide lead
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Staryu: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes, 62.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22) unless it runs 196/236+ it doesn't have much of a chance
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Doduo: 23-28 (115 - 140%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 28) doduo really shouldn't be switching in unless diggy's locked into eq
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Ponyta: 32-38 (145.4 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36, 36, 36, 37, 37, 38) thats with 76/236 lol
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Abra: 30-36 (157.8 - 189.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(30, 30, 31, 31, 32, 32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36) calcing abra for completions sake lol
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Cacnea: 14-17 (58.3 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17) so cac with 196/236+ actually seems to be one of the best checks lol
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Cubone: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15) cubone too
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Larvitar: 40-48 (181.8 - 218.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(40, 41, 41, 42, 42, 43, 43, 44, 44, 45, 45, 46, 46, 47, 47, 48) not gonna be living that anytime soon lol
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Gastly: 13-16 (68.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16) lol gas the diggy check
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Kabuto: 32-38 (168.4 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36, 36, 36, 37, 37, 38) kabuto is a thing????
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Exeggcute: 14-17 (63.6 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17) eggy is p good "check" (because literally nothing hasn't been ohkoed or 2hkoed yet)
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Koffing: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 12) 36/236+ is what i calced but
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Koffing: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 12) with 196/236+ oh and it cant be trapped so koffing is prolly best check in meta
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Ledyba: 54-64 (270 - 320%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(54, 55, 55, 56, 56, 57, 58, 58, 59, 60, 60, 61, 62, 62, 63, 64) completions sake
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Oddish: 20-24 (90.9 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24) idk what this runs lol
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Clamperl: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19) dk what this runs either
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Onix: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24) this is 76/236+ onix, base 160 def, still an ohko
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Trapinch: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24) 156/76 is what eren says this runs
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Baltoy: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19) eren's spread
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Bellsprout: 23-28 (109.5 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 28) idk what this runs so calced with 0/0
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Duskull: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16) used spread from that spikes team on page 1
-1 Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Growlithe: 22-26 (88 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
(22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26) 236/236+
Choice Band Diglett Double-Edge vs. Lotad: 21-25 (105 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25) idk what this runs or why its c rank
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Mankey: 22-27 (104.7 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(22, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27) dont think these run bulk so i have 36/76 in calc
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Poliwag: 22-27 (104.7 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(22, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27) not today
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Rhyhorn: 25-30 (92.5 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
(25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27, 27, 27, 27, 28, 28, 28, 29, 29, 29, 30) 196/236+ gets guaranteed ohko after 1 spike
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Anorith: 17-20 (77.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 20) anorith is surprisingly bluk
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Azurill: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(20, 20, 20, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24) 0/116
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Carvanha: 30-36 (142.8 - 171.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(30, 30, 31, 31, 32, 32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36) didnt even bother calcing any spreads other than 0/0 because carv is frail af
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Drowzee: 22-27 (88 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(22, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27) 196/0 i dont really know what this mon runs, the only thing i know about it is one time the viability rankings wasted like one and a half pages on this shit
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Houndour: 52-62 (247.6 - 295.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(52, 53, 53, 54, 55, 55, 56, 57, 57, 58, 58, 59, 60, 60, 61, 62) completions sake
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Magby: 47-56 (223.8 - 266.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(47, 48, 48, 49, 49, 50, 50, 51, 52, 52, 53, 53, 54, 54, 55, 56) " diggy only takes ~30% from mach
Choice Band Diglett Earthquake vs. Smoochum: 30-36 (142.8 - 171.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(30, 30, 31, 31, 32, 32, 32, 33, 33, 33, 34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36) "
Choice Band Diglett Rock Slide vs. Spinarak: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
(22, 22, 22, 22, 23, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 26) is p good for a thot, running aerow's sexy spread
not gonna calc anything below c rank because i'm fucking tired


So Diggy can OHKO or 2HKO nearly the entire metagame with just Earthquake + Rock Slide + Double-Edge. The few things that can survive two hits (not accounting for Sitrus Berry) have to run an obscene amount of HP and Defense to avoid that, and except for Porygon and Snubbull (which are iffy checks at best), every check and counter to Diglett is in at B- at best. This means that players have to run questionably viable Pokemon just to avoid Diglett destroying their entire teams. Also, Diglett sits in the 20 speed tier- with the lack of Choice Scarf in ADV, this means that nothing can outspeed it except by being named Elekid, Diglett, or Voltorb and winning a speed tie. What this entails is that Diglett can outspeed literally every Pokemon in the metagame (with a little bit of luck) so what this means is that a complex ban of op and/or tfs with diglett is in order players can have their entire teams outsped and OHKOed. Any Pokemon that can sweep teams once its counters are even weakened a bit, like Diglett, deserves to go. You can literally just lure in a Pokemon that's not immune to Ground and sack one of your own Pokemon to get Diglett in for free, eliminating counters to other Pokemon so that they can sweep- especially since Diglett also has Memento to cripple the opponent and grant a free switch into the sweeper. Also, I've found that many of the battles I've played have literally just come down to a speed tie between Diglett and Diglett/Elekid/Voltorb, which means that games simply just come down to a dice roll. That isn't balanced by any means.

TL;DR: Ban Diglett. It can OHKO or 2HKO almost the entire metagame, and outspeeds or speed ties with literally the entire tier, as well as removing checks and counters to other Pokemon, making it much easier for them to sweep.

EDIT: Lucy says Diggy doesn't get Memento. My bad.
 
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mad0ka

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I would like to add that Diglett does not get memento. That is a gen 5 egg move; it's not compatible in gen 3.
 

Fiend

someguy
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Showdown has lied to me all this time... That makes it rather less potent and quite a lot less awkward to handle. Even less broken on paper now.
 
People are voting without even knowing how significant Diglett is or what it does. That's really troubling. :/

This isn't an issue of it performing differently on paper. You either hope you win the tie, try grabbing momentum with Doduo, or use Trapinch. It's a centralizing threat that can shave off well over half of the health of RSE's bulky mons.

On the flip side I can keep fucking people over with Dual trapping if Diggy isn't gone.
 
I think people should try using a Pokemon that isn't weak to EQ and abuse its presence instead of lazily calling to ban Pokemon that is at best a great revenge killer (it's basically the same with Adv OU and Dugtrio). Or use Endure + Salac Berry like all of the regular ADV metagames that are concerned with fast trappers.

I'm also concerned because I don't know if anyone has actually played enough ADV LC to give any credibility to this anecdotal evidence they are using to support their claims.
 

Aerow

rebel
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I often see people using the argument "just use less Pokemon weak to Earthquake", but I feel that is kinda flawed. You have to remember Earthquake is super-effective against 5 different types, Rock, Steel, Electric, Poison, and Fire. There's around 30 Pokemon weak to Earthquake, and 70% of these are in E-rank mostly because of Diglett's presence (it can even switch-in on many of these). In other words, around 25-30% of all Pokemon in ADV LC are weak to just Earthquake.

You mention Salac Berry + Endure, but I can't see how this is so threatening for Diglett. Diglett uses Earthquake, the opponent uses Endure and Salac Berry activates, Diglett switches out. There's no Pokemon in ADV LC that's extremely scary at +1 that Diglett switching out will be a problem, and the opponent with just 1 HP left won't enjoy switching in again, and is dead weight if Spikes are up. While not extremely common, priority moves are also a thing in ADV LC. I can see that many Pokemon in ADV OU for example is very threatening at +1, but I don't feel this is the case in ADV LC. For example, many top tier threats like Elekid, Wailmer, Snubbull, Voltorb, Chinchou, and Abra are all fairly easy to wall at +1 speed. Nothing is particularly scary with Salac Berry, and it hinders them from running better items, i.e Sitrus Berry.

Again, I do agree Diglett isn't extremely broken, but I still feel its unhealthy for the metagame, due to the 20 speedtie, the fact that it makes a ton of Pokemon less viable in a metagame that already struggles with having enough amount of viable Pokemon. The 20 speedtie is actually very, very bad, since losing either Diglett or Elekid can often mean game for either side, since they both are very, very important for a team. If Diglett were just "annoying" and not that good, yes it would be kinda dumb to ban it, but that's not the case. Its not rarely I hear people deterring from playing ADV LC due to Diglett, especially the more they have played the meta.
 

GlassGlaceon

My heart has now been set on love
I often see people using the argument "just use less Pokemon weak to Earthquake", but I feel that is kinda flawed. You have to remember Earthquake is super-effective against 5 different types, Rock, Steel, Electric, Poison, and Fire. There's around 30 Pokemon weak to Earthquake, and 70% of these are in E-rank mostly because of Diglett's presence (it can even switch-in on many of these). In other words, around 25-30% of all Pokemon in ADV LC are weak to just Earthquake.

You mention Salac Berry + Endure, but I can't see how this is so threatening for Diglett. Diglett uses Earthquake, the opponent uses Endure and Salac Berry activates, Diglett switches out. There's no Pokemon in ADV LC that's extremely scary at +1 that Diglett switching out will be a problem, and the opponent with just 1 HP left won't enjoy switching in again, and is dead weight if Spikes are up. While not extremely common, priority moves are also a thing in ADV LC. I can see that many Pokemon in ADV OU for example is very threatening at +1, but I don't feel this is the case in ADV LC. For example, many top tier threats like Elekid, Wailmer, Snubbull, Voltorb, Chinchou, and Abra are all fairly easy to wall at +1 speed. Nothing is particularly scary with Salac Berry, and it hinders them from running better items, i.e Sitrus Berry.

Again, I do agree Diglett isn't extremely broken, but I still feel its unhealthy for the metagame, due to the 20 speedtie, the fact that it makes a ton of Pokemon less viable in a metagame that already struggles with having enough amount of viable Pokemon. The 20 speedtie is actually very, very bad, since losing either Diglett or Elekid can often mean game for either side, since they both are very, very important for a team. If Diglett were just "annoying" and not that good, yes it would be kinda dumb to ban it, but that's not the case. Its not rarely I hear people deterring from playing ADV LC due to Diglett, especially the more they have played the meta.

Diglett doesn't deter people from playing ADV because it's "broken". Diglett deters people from playing ADV because it makes the meta stale and at a standstill. As I said earlier, there is an opportunity cost for running diggles and it's generally not as freaking insanely overpowered as most claim. It's really good, and it's on every team. It does it's job, but it doess have drawbacks.

The question should shift from "Should we suspect it because it's broken?" to "Should we suspect it because it deters people and makes the metagame generally less fun?"
 
This is a novelty tier so wouldn't trying it make it as fun as possible a given? At least stick to one half of the banning spectrum so people can actually argue. Also the council is like half of all adv lc players so not
 
Running Endure Salac on Ground weak Pokrmon is a bandaid solution. All it does is stall momentum gains unless your opponent runs HO. It doesn't really solve the issue at all. :/
 
Imo, Endure + Salac is just an example of how centralizing Dig is. Woo, I get to waste my item slot and move slot so I get a mon at 1 HP and at +1 Speed. Sure you killed dig, but you had to waste an entire pokemon to do it. Nothing in the tier is threatening enough at +1 speed to warrant doing it, since your basically just sacking it.

Anyway, I think banning Dig because it lowers the enjoyment level of the tier is 100% a valid argument. Aerow had already said he is willing to ban a mon if it makes the tier unfun, and Diglett easily makes the tier less enjoyable. Even those who are anti-ban agree that the 50/50's and speed ties Dig causes are stupid and bad for ADV. I think this needs to be discussed more though.
 
I often see people using the argument "just use less Pokemon weak to Earthquake", but I feel that is kinda flawed. You have to remember Earthquake is super-effective against 5 different types, Rock, Steel, Electric, Poison, and Fire. There's around 30 Pokemon weak to Earthquake, and 70% of these are in E-rank mostly because of Diglett's presence (it can even switch-in on many of these). In other words, around 25-30% of all Pokemon in ADV LC are weak to just Earthquake.
I think you're grasping for straws if you're trying to put forth the argument that it's hard to find at least one Pokemon that can set up on Diglett after it revenge kills. You don't need to use a team of 6 Pokemon who resist earthquake, but you can easily use a team that mostly does and at the very least, take advantage of the immunity to ground that cripples every Diglett team I've seen. (unless you flinch me with Diglett CB rock slide 3 times out of 4 uses.....)

If you use something like Sub Gastly or even like Exeggcute, the opponent will definitely be put in a shitty situation after every revenge kill. You can punish Diglett users as much or more than they punish you.

You mention Salac Berry + Endure, but I can't see how this is so threatening for Diglett. Diglett uses Earthquake, the opponent uses Endure and Salac Berry activates, Diglett switches out. There's no Pokemon in ADV LC that's extremely scary at +1 that Diglett switching out will be a problem, and the opponent with just 1 HP left won't enjoy switching in again, and is dead weight if Spikes are up. While not extremely common, priority moves are also a thing in ADV LC. I can see that many Pokemon in ADV OU for example is very threatening at +1, but I don't feel this is the case in ADV LC. For example, many top tier threats like Elekid, Wailmer, Snubbull, Voltorb, Chinchou, and Abra are all fairly easy to wall at +1 speed. Nothing is particularly scary with Salac Berry, and it hinders them from running better items, i.e Sitrus Berry.
Running Endure Salac on Ground weak Pokrmon is a bandaid solution. All it does is stall momentum gains unless your opponent runs HO. It doesn't really solve the issue at all. :/
Imo, Endure + Salac is just an example of how centralizing Dig is. Woo, I get to waste my item slot and move slot so I get a mon at 1 HP and at +1 Speed. Sure you killed dig, but you had to waste an entire pokemon to do it. Nothing in the tier is threatening enough at +1 speed to warrant doing it, since your basically just sacking it.
I put these together because they're basically saying the same thing.

The most obvious weakness of the argument is the complete dismissal of the fact that most of those Pokemon ARE scarier than Diglett. I think this stems from being stuck in the gen 5/6 era. This is ADV:

1) There's no Eviolite, it's fairly easy to OHKO something or at the very least, inflict significant damage.

2) It's pre-explosion nerf. You blow up and almost always take something with you. Basically, using Diglett gives that opponent the mon the opponent sacrificed to bring Diglett in, and then a mind-game for explosion which would either KO Diglett or something else, or maybe they have another move waiting.

3) Reversal, Flail, and Blaze/Torrent/Overgrow are all viable strategies. There is a serious lack of viable priority to the point where people use non-STAB Quick Attack to stop these sweepers. I dare you to try and argue that Diglett is scarier than something like Blaze Charmander or Cyndaquil's Fire Blast or Mankey's powered up Reversal (or whatever Fighting-type mon).

Another problem is that it was not stated at all the difficulty getting Diglett in. You usually need to sacrifice a Pokemon to get Diglett in. If your best argument is to "switch out" then you seriously did not think beyond that turn and the consequences of that move.

If there's no spikes, you can always switch it out and use it as fodder late game or if it's already fast, get some use out of it.

Lastly, saying "oh you killed diglett but needed to sac a Pokemon to do it" is the icing on the cake. It's basically an admission that Endure + Salac will end up in you saccing a Pokemon to get Diglett in, then saccing Diglett trying to kill it if you don't switch out, then either taking a chunk of damage or getting exploded on.

All in all, even if you use Diglett-weak Pokemon you can prepare for it in ways that are viable.

Again, I do agree Diglett isn't extremely broken, but I still feel its unhealthy for the metagame, due to the 20 speedtie, the fact that it makes a ton of Pokemon less viable in a metagame that already struggles with having enough amount of viable Pokemon. The 20 speedtie is actually very, very bad, since losing either Diglett or Elekid can often mean game for either side, since they both are very, very important for a team. If Diglett were just "annoying" and not that good, yes it would be kinda dumb to ban it, but that's not the case. Its not rarely I hear people deterring from playing ADV LC due to Diglett, especially the more they have played the meta.
Anyway, I think banning Dig because it lowers the enjoyment level of the tier is 100% a valid argument. Aerow had already said he is willing to ban a mon if it makes the tier unfun, and Diglett easily makes the tier less enjoyable. Even those who are anti-ban agree that the 50/50's and speed ties Dig causes are stupid and bad for ADV. I think this needs to be discussed more though.
I'm generally opposed to that philosophy, but I think in this case it doesn't come down to that. The reason that's being put forth is not that it is unfun (even if people say it is). To be blunt, the only argument I'm seeing is sheer laziness. Banning something because they have to think about how to beat it is a cop out and, i would say, cannot be followed through with.

Honestly, why aren't we suspecting Wailmer or Sitrus Berry? Those are way better and more threatening than Diglett.

EDIT: HollowRidley I kind of already pointed out that you don't need to use non viable strategies to get around Diglett. Maybe the word "lazy" offends you, however; currently it's the only excuse for what people have been saying in this thread.
 
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I'm generally opposed to that philosophy, but I think in this case it doesn't come down to that. The reason that's being put forth is not that it is unfun (even if people say it is). To be blunt, the only argument I'm seeing is sheer laziness. Banning something because they have to think about how to beat it is a cop out and, i would say, cannot be followed through with.

Honestly, why aren't we suspecting Wailmer or Sitrus Berry? Those are way better and more threatening than Diglett.
Ok, I'll discuss the stuff about Endure + Salac and revenging Diglett later when I have more time, but I would like to address this last point you brought up. Perhaps there is a sense of "laziness" as you put it in our desire to ban Diglett in that most players would rather not branch out to certain strategies deemed "unviable", or weaker than others. I can understand that side of the argument. However, saying that we, pro-ban players who say that a legitimate reasoning for banning Diglett is that it makes the tier less enjoyable, are only bringing up this point because we're lazy is frankly bullshit. First, it was already said that it's legit reason for banning it. ADV is a fledgling metagame, and I want to see it grow. Growth can't happen however, if no one wants to play. And people won't want to play if it isn't fun. No one here is too "lazy" to play around Diglett. Just because some people don't want to use lower ranked mons and other strategies just to beat Dig doesn't make them lazy. I really enjoy ADV, and I want to see it become more popular in the future, which is why I think banning Diglett is best for this metagame's future expansion.

Also I'm pretty sure Wailmer will be suspected eventually.
 

mad0ka

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Um. Are sets like endure reversal Mankey not fun to use? Heysup has expanded and bettered what I had said and wanted to say and I agree with him 100%. If anything, since Diglett is so "overcentralizing", then why don't people use fun creative ways of getting around it? I've created several teams that I enjoy playing with tremendously and are incredibly viable that aren't exactly what can be considered standard, and they in no means have too many issues with Diglett. It literally is an issue of people not wanting to be innovative like Heysup said.
 

Corporal Levi

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I think we should quell the misconception that Diglett makes a lot of other Pokemon unviable, because it's simply not true. The fact is that regardless of whether Diglett remains in the tier, Pokemon like Magnemite and Ekans will continue to be complete trash because their setbacks extend far beyond being weak to a Pokemon that can't even safely switch in on them. One quick glance at the D- and E-rank Pokemon will tell you that even if Diglett did leave, the vast majority of them would likely maintain their positions, and even of the handful that would not, it can be all but guaranteed to be because of a new set being discovered that has nothing or at least very little to do with Diglett. The one exception I can find to this would be Anorith (Poliwag is a dumb joke, don't even go there), but feel free to find more; just keep in mind that most, if not all of these would be easily offset by the Pokemon that Diglett has given niches to, including Doduo, Trapinch, and a number of bulkier Earthquake immunities.
Of course, Elekid, Chinchou, Ponyta and all sorts of other Pokemon that aren't entirely hopeless are also held back by Diglett, right?
Let's have a quick look at the viability thread.

These Pokemon aren't doing well in the metagame; they're excelling. Despite what the calcs initially appear to indicate, Diglett's presence hasn't been anywhere near enough to prevent these Pokemon from dominating the metagame. It's quite true that Diglett can revenge-kill them if they haven't been able to set up accordingly, but for all of its strengths, its weaknesses are also very noticeable, and the end result is a Pokemon that can't actually stop Elekid and friends from performing wonderfully in their respective roles. Diglett is a great revenge-killer, but is almost always limited to just that, unless you turn to silly gimmicks; on top of this, once it does finish revenge-killing, the momentum completely shifts because Diglett sort of sucks otherwise and the opponent gets a free turn. It's not like losing one team member instantly costs you the match in a game where 1-for-1 trades are everywhere; if you do get swept by an important sweeper, it won't be because of Diglett, considering how Larvitar has a ridiculous number of checks and counters, most of which can't be trapped by Diglett, anyway, Horsea's biggest check, bulky Wailmer, doesn't even lose to Diglett (3 layers of Spikes is quite unlikely to say the least), and Ponyta has no counters to trap. Being weak to Diglett honestly isn't much worse than being weak to Electric-types, and being weak to Water-types is probably even more detrimental.
Basically, if anything is noticeably hindering the growth of the metagame, it's not Diglett; far larger factors would probably be our playerbase and the mechanics of ADV, including the reduced available pool of Pokemon/moves.
In regards to Diglett making the metagame less fun, this is purely subjective so it's not really a debatable point for or against, but I would like to mention that I find a Diglett metagame plenty of fun; I find the mind-games revolving around when Diglett is coming into play and how this decision should best be punished to be plenty of entertainment, and taking Diglett out is obviously quite satisfying, although of course nowhere near as satisfying as taking out their bulky Normal-type. (If you REALLY dislike Diglett, it's almost guaranteed to be eliminated by a Porygon of your own, which is probably the second best Pokemon in ADV LC after Wailmer, is already pretty much everywhere as it should be, and will continue to be considered one of the best Pokemon in ADV LC no matter what happens to Diglett, but hopefully we won't have to resort to that :/) I would like to vote to ban Diglett because Anorith is adorable and I like Anorith
 
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Aerow

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Heysup and I had a fairly in-depth conversation on this, and he certainly brought up some valid points. I'm personally convinced Diglett isn't broken, and many of the arguments that have been given here to say that it is aren't wholly valid. However, as I have previously mentioned, a vote for banning Diglett if you think that it hurts the metagame is still legitimate, be it due to the 20 Speed tie, severely reducing the viability of many Pokemon, or something else. I am leaning slightly towards banning Diglett, but I will use the next days to try out things like Endure + Salac Berry and see for myself; we still have time to change our opinions.

If you feel as if Diglett makes ADV LC a worse metagame, then go ahead and vote for its ban. Conversely, if you think that banning Diglett is a bad idea, then vote no ban when the voting starts. If ADV LC had a larger player base, then I would agree that it wouldn't be a very good idea to have people voting for a ban because of Diglett making the meta less fun, but ADV LC is so small that making the metagame more fun for most people will mean more players, thus more innovation and a better metagame. Whether the metagame is more fun with or without Diglett is of course entirely subjective, and of course, neither opinion is wrong.

Also, Wailmer and Sitrus Berry/Berry Juice will of course get a suspect if people want it.
 
If you feel as if Diglett makes ADV LC a worse metagame, then go ahead and vote for its ban. Conversely, if you think that banning Diglett is a bad idea, then vote no ban when the voting starts. If ADV LC had a larger player base, then I would agree that it wouldn't be a very good idea to have people voting for a ban because of Diglett making the meta less fun, but ADV LC is so small that making the metagame more fun for most people will mean more players, thus more innovation and a better metagame. Whether the metagame is more fun with or without Diglett is of course entirely subjective, and of course, neither opinion is wrong.
I agree with most of your post in it's two-sidedness, but for the sake of fairness I think it would make sense to bring up the other side of this argument.

I think it's reasonable to suggest that banning things because you think it's less fun could very well take away from potential players joining because of the validity of the metagame. I think LC as a whole suffers from the misconception that it's not competitive or for the extremely ignorant, even called "a joke". With that in mind, I think, contrary to the current "If X(Diglett is banned), Y (more people play ADV LC) happens" there's a distinct possibility that it doesn't. I think time will allow ADV LC to grow more than rushing it :). I think if we're concerned about player base, tournaments are a better way to get people involved rather than banning a Pokemon based on our personal subjective opinions that generally lack adequate experience (even though I've been "playing" this game for years, i still don't consider myself experienced).

Sorry for being pedantic :/ but ya.

PS: as a side note, can ppl challenge me for ADV LC cuz it's fun :)
 
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I agree with most of your post in it's two-sidedness, but for the sake of fairness I think it would make sense to bring up the other side of this argument.

I think it's reasonable to suggest that banning things because you think it's less fun could very well take away from potential players joining because of the validity of the metagame. I think LC as a whole suffers from the conception that it's not competitive or for the extremely ignorant, even called "a joke". With that in mind, I think, contrary to the current "If X(Diglett is banned), Y (more people play ADV LC) happens" there's a distinct possibility that it doesn't. I think time will allow ADV LC to grow more than rushing it :). I think if we're concerned about player base, tournaments are a better way to get people involved rather than banning a Pokemon based on our personal subjective opinions that generally lack adequate experience (even though I've been "playing" this game for years, i still don't consider myself experienced).

Sorry for being pedantic :/ but ya.

PS: as a side note, can ppl challenge me for ADV LC cuz it's fun :)
While I disagreed with you before, I actually agree with you entirely here. LC isn't respected really at all by most people, and the idea that we banned something because it made the metagame less fun (basing said ban off a subjective topic) would be a serious detriment for the metagame's reputation as a whole. However we do have to consider the fact that people dislike LC for it's speed ties. And since Diglett causes some really annoying ones, and is so popular in the meta, I think that could also cause problems for ADV LC's reputation. I think that's what makes this suspect test so complex and confusing. Either way we're kinda in a rough spot on whether we ban it or not imo. I also really like your suggestion for holding tournaments to help expand ADV's player base, it's both fun and gives us a larger group of people to expose to the metagame actively n_n. I think Dig needs more time to be looked at, although I still am pro-ban.

And I'm always down for some ADV LC games dude, unless I'm on my phone we should play some :). Although my teams are kinda bad lol
 

Aerow

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Okay, its time to start voting!

Send me a PM with the title [Diglett suspect] and your vote (Ban or No Ban) and a small description why. If all of the 15 council members PM me their vote, 8 Ban votes is needed for Diglett to be banned. If I for some reason would only get 13 votes, 7 Ban votes is needed etc.

You'll have a couple of days to vote on, but please be as quick as possible :]

 

Aerow

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Diglett is officially banned from ADV Little Cup

Diglett was banned with a clear majority, 9 BAN and 4 NO BAN votes.

Here's the votes (will add descriptions later this upcoming week when I have a PC):

Aerow - BAN
boo836 - BAN
Corporal Levi - NO BAN
Eren Yeagar - NO BAN
Fiend Hound - BAN
Fran17 - BAN
Heysup - NO BAN
HollowRidley - BAN
Infamy - BAN
Nineage - BAN
sparktrain - NO BAN
Sunny. - BAN
Tahu - BAN

Dhaora and queenlucy still haven't voted, but the required amount of ban votes is already reached, so it won't make a difference. Still cool if you guys PM me your votes tho.


I want to say thanks to everyone who participated, and I'm very happy with the overall activity we managed to get during this suspect :]
 
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