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Gen 3 ADV NU - An introduction and a tiny bit of shuffling from UU

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Oglemi, Mar 31, 2014.

  1. Oglemi

    Oglemi THE DREAM IS REAL
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    Hey guys, as some of you may know, I've been really into ADV NU lately because it is ridiculously addictive and fun. I've actually been putting a ton of research and effort into fleshing out the metagame and playing around with some things. What has led me to making this thread is I want to re-tier a couple of Pokemon, to which I'm sure there will be few qualms, but I kinda want to do it for the sake of representing things correctly.

    For those unfamiliar with ADV NU, this is the current tierlist based off of what Project NU and later PO tried to do for the metagame (Smogon's current tierlist is waaaaay off of what the tier is currently, but I aim to fix that once editing of the Dex becomes functional again):

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    Aipom
    Ariados
    Beautifly
    Beedrill
    Bellossom
    Butterfree
    Cacturne
    Castform
    Chimecho
    Corsola
    Crawdaunt
    Delcatty
    Delibird
    Dewgong
    Ditto
    Dustox
    Farfetch'd
    Flareon
    Glalie
    Hitmonchan
    Huntail
    Illumise
    Kecleon
    Kingler
    Ledian
    Lickitung
    Luvdisc
    Magcargo
    Masquerain
    Mawile
    Mightyena
    Minun
    Murkrow
    Noctowl
    Nosepass
    Parasect
    Pelipper
    Pidgeot
    Piloswine
    Plusle
    Raticate
    Relicanth
    Roselia
    Seaking
    Seviper
    Spinda
    Sudowoodo
    Sunflora
    Swalot
    Tangela
    Togetic
    Tropius
    Unown
    Venomoth
    Volbeat
    Wailord
    Whiscash
    Wigglytuff


    A major thing to take note of is that PO banned all NFEs from the tier, which I don't agree with at all. Looking into it a bit more, it seems that user coyote and whoever else was involved didn't like dealing with Pupitar and Haunter, and so they banned all NFEs. Which besides being a dumb thing to do, Pupitar and Haunter aren't even broken from what I've seen so far playing with them. In any case, the following NFEs are banned though: Chansey, Kadabra, and Scyther.

    For those unfamiliar with playing the tier at all, I have a few resources you can use to get into the meta:

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-nu-threatlist-gp-2-2.3498510/

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/rby-gsc-adv.147/ (the only mons I haven't gotten to are a couple NFEs)

    Now, onto the point of the thread. There are a few Pokemon not on the above NU tierlist that are currently sitting in UU that I feel should be NU. These Pokemon being extremely useless and, from what I can tell, not even used in the UU environment. The other caveat being that they don't also break the NU metagame. I would like to see the following listed as NU:

    Arbok
    Dunsparce
    Octillery
    Sableye
    Shedinja
    Shuckle
    Yanma

    Of those Pokemon, the only one I think sees any kind of use in UU maybe is Shedinja, and that's only on semi-gimmick teams since Spikes are everywhere.

    Octillery, Sableye, Shuckle, and Yanma don't even provide NU with any kind of niche or usefulness from what I can tell (Octillery being a decent BP receiver I suppose and Yanma having a mediocre Reversal set (it's still outclassed by Raticate and Kingler there)).

    Arbok though is interesting, as it provides an offensive check to Hitmonchan, as well as a semi-reliable check to other Choice Banders like Pidgeot and Kingler, while remaining countered by the myriad of Rock-types in the tier, as well as Piloswine, Mawile, and Chimecho.

    Dunsparce is also kind cool in that it's actually more physically defensive than Lickitung and can spread paralysis very well, but doesn't do much beyond that.

    Shedinja and Sableye provide some depth in the Ghost department, but are still largely outclassed by Haunter in what they set out to do (spinblock Hitmonchan).

    Anyway, thoughts? Any other mons that should be moved down due to being completely useless in the UU environment without breaking the NU meta? Also as a note, nothing needs to be moved out of NU due to power or anything, it's actually extremely balanced, which is part of what makes it so fun lol.
  2. Taehl

    Taehl

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    I completely agree with you on Dunsparce, Shuckle and Sableye (why are they even uu in the first place, lol). The other ones I haven't really looked into yet. But then again, the tiering system is based of usage and not of how viable/unviable a pokemon is in the tier.
  3. meteor64

    meteor64

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    I've never played NU so I'm just totally speculating here, but why would Octillery not be useful? It only really has to compete with Huntail, Crawdaunt and Wailord and it has a pretty wild offensive movepool and stats that let it beat down on both sides, and its bulk is also pretty decent for NU (better than Huntails). Can Twave things it needs to outspeed which also supports your team. Has Rock Blast for Pelliper and Sludge Bomb for things like Tangela and Bellossom so physical sets aren't walled so easily where Huntail and friends would fall flat. Special sets can run Psychic for catching things like Swalot and Venomoth, and unless I'm misssing something it would have the strongest Surf in the tier by a comfortable margin.

    It just seems to me like it has lots of little quirks that would make it worth looking at.
  4. Oglemi

    Oglemi THE DREAM IS REAL
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    Octillery has a niche in that it has a movepool out the ass, making it hard to switch into, but beyond that it doesn't offer anything that Crawdaunt, Wailord, Seadra, and Huntail don't already provide as offensive Water-types. Octillery is also slower than fuck, and the other two offensive Water-types that are slow like it are just more useful. Crawdaunt hits far harder on the physical side while packing STAB Crunch on the special, and Wailord has a variety of sets it can use and, most importantly, Selfdestruct. Seadra is like twice as fast while packing about as much power relatively as Octillery, and Huntail in the rain is legit insane.

    I just don't see an actual reason to use Octillery outside of a kind of specially offensive Thunder Wave set (or as a BP receiver but phazing is relatively uncommon in NU anyway). In any other bulky Water-type role, Dewgong, Whiscash, and Wailord would just do it better in most cases.
  5. Melons-N-Soda

    Melons-N-Soda

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    Are Furret, Torkoal and Girafarig UU or something? They're listed on the site (The official Smogon site) as being NU but I can't find them on this list.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
  6. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Cute Dawg
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    If octillery had some kind of boosting move, it could make better use of its suction cups ability since it cant be roared out. It would have been an offensive version of cradily. Unfortunatly it has no way to boosts its stats. Maybe it could be a niche bp reciever although the only decent looking pokemon that has something useful to pass is girafarig with its calm minds but really, there are other more deserving pokemon it can bp to.
  7. Oglemi

    Oglemi THE DREAM IS REAL
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    Furret, Torkoal, and Girafarig are currently UU.

    Furret could also be moved into NU easily since it's heavily outclassed by Raticate and Vigoroth anyway, and is wholly outclassed by Linoone in UU and I don't see why it would be used in UU over anything else (Tricking Choice Band is neat but you really don't want to give anything that switches into Furret a Choice Band...).

    I'm not sure why Torkoal was moved into UU since it wouldn't be used without Rapid Spin anyway, and is outclassed by Magcargo as a physically defensive Fire-type.

    Girafarig probably isn't used in UU, but I also don't think it'd be healthy to have it in NU. It'd suddenly be the #1 Pokemon without a doubt, overshadowing Chimecho and giving BP teams a ridiculous tool. I'd rather keep Girafarig out.
  8. eriados

    eriados

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    Oglemi, if it helps you I used UU Stadium's archives for a lot of my teambuilding during Corsola Cup. Here's the link: http://web.archive.org/web/20080623024825/www.uustadium.com/advnu/nulist/ That list might be good for writing up the analyses, even if a lot of it just seems bad, he lists CB as Crawdaunt's first set o.o Dropping stuff like Arbok and Sableye would be really cool since Hitmonchan needs more decent checks (getting destroyed by McM's EQ Chan in finals was humiliating). If all of Haunter, Shuckle, Sableye, and Shedinja (lol) drop, normals are gonna start seeing a lot less usage (rip CB rat lead ;~;). I'm not sure about Torkoal, as an Amnesia set could be very powerful (max/max def can sometimes avoid the 2hko from CB woodo's HP rock). Also if you want any help writing the analyses, I'd be happy to help out. ADV NU is a fantastic metagame and it would be awesome to see more activity in it.

    Old gens tiers are not based off of usage. If ADV NU was based off of usage stats then you'd be looking at a pool of very, very few games.
  9. Oglemi

    Oglemi THE DREAM IS REAL
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    CB with Surf is probably still Crawdaunt's best set, though the CB set that guy had is awful lol. But that's probably better for the thread I have for Crawdaunt in C&C.

    Also, I don't even think Haunter, Shuckle, or Sableye would even really affect the Normals, aside from maybe Pidgeot. Haunter is annihilated by anything that touches it, Shuckle or Sableye can't status Raticate without fucking themselves cuz of Guts, and Shedinja is just so niche, and without Focus Sash in this gen it's so easy to get rid of. Pidgeot can only 3HKO 252/252 Sableye, but Sableye just isn't really doing anything in return except blocking Double-Edge and Toxicing it or Knocking Off its CB (it doesn't get Wisp in ADV).

    Torkoal I just don't see doing anything either. Amnesia is cool I guess, but even at +2 Timid Seadra is still 2HKOing with Surf lol and even at +6 it's 2HKOed by Huntail's Hydro Pump in the rain. A RestTalk Amnesia set to protect itself from Toxic would just be annoying more than anything rofl. If anything I'd run a specially defensive Torkoal with Curse late-game.

    But yea, anyone is free to leave comments or help out with the NU C&C stuff I have, it'd be awesome!
  10. eriados

    eriados

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    by far the most deadly set for 'daunt is, imo, sub SD. it has a wide variety of attacks it can run which makes it really dangerous. I dont see why you would run CB daunt over rat or chan, tbh. either way you're sacrificing a large amount of bulk or speed. the mere prescence of haunter forces rat to run shadow ball instead of super fang which is really boss for nailing rocks with on the switch since they dont have any recovery. cb double edge from either rat or pidgeot is pretty much the strongest move you'll see in the meta barring cb chan focus punch or cb woodo's explosion, and being able to block that gives shuckle and the ghosts relevant niches imo, even if they aren't doing much in return. shedinja is garbage yeah. pretty much everything has a way of killing it except huntail and plusle/minun, as well as the prevalence of spikes in a meta with no good spinners. bellossom or roselia hard counter both of the things you listed to kill torkoal, as well as doing aromatherapy and/or spikes so i still think torkoal would be very powerful.

    what about dropping down xatu and exploud? xatu could be cool with calm mind and wish :o exploud just looks pretty awful in general. maybe things to consider?

    if NFEs are allowed i can see diglett being useful. getting big damage off on mawile and faster than most offensive things is cool. vigoroth looks disgusting though, i'm not sure if it should be allowed to drop.
  11. col49

    col49
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    Well first of all, I'd like to start by saying that I'm really digging ADV NU as a whole, for what limited opportunities I've gotten to play it, and would be more than willing to offer what I can to help with this project :)

    If I could address the points on Exploud and Xatu, as well as the overall concept of dropping UU 'mons down to NU, I feel the most important points to note are the individual 'mons impact on the NU metagame and the competition it gives in relation to similar NU mainstays, rather than their usefulness (or lack thereof) within NU. As is the case with Girafirag, while it isn't excessively useful within the UU tier, by putting it in the NU tier, it shifts the overall balance of the metagame in an unhealthy manner; it's high base Speed and Special Attack combined with strong coverage and utility options make it threatening in its own right, and, with the exception of its Fighting neutrality, almost entirely outclasses Chimecho, an already high-tier threat, in the majority of its roles. Overall, I have to draw most motions to move down Psychic-types into scrutiny, as their typing alone holds high offensive and defensive value (Fighting resist is definitely clutch, and the pool of viable Dark- or Steel-types is about 3-4 'mons wide), making it difficult to fit more into the tier without disturbing the current balance. On that note, I'm a bit hesitant to drop Xatu, who not only outpaces the vast majority of the metagame, but also retains better physical bulk and Special Attack than Chimecho, as well as utilities such as Giga Drain, Thunder Wave, and Wish. As for Exploud, I'm personally on the fence about it, but I lean towards the notion that it is just a little too back-breaking in an offensive regard, being just bulky and strong enough, in tandem with precise coverage moves, to threaten more-or-less any 'mon in the tier without being similarly pressured by anything else in the same way. However, it does sound like something worth addressing at some point, and a Sableye drop might help its cause (though Taunt looks plenty useable on it).

    edit: I just thought I'd mention that, like, 60% of the revamp sets' spreads are missing 4 EVs, in case someone hasn't brought that up yet *-*
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
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  12. Durant

    Durant

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    I would be really interested in playing gen 3 NU so can someone give me advice on what's good and what's bad.
  13. eriados

    eriados

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    If I had to make a rough viability ranking thread based off of my experience, it would probably look something like this:

    S rank:
    Hitmonchan
    Huntail
    Tangela

    A rank:
    Mawile
    Raticate
    Pidgeot
    Murkrow
    Whiscash
    Sudowoodo
    Chimecho
    Bellossom
    Glalie
    Plusle
    Swalot


    B Rank:
    Roselia
    Minun
    Seviper
    Cacturne
    Kecleon
    Lickitung
    Relicanth
    Venomoth
    Piloswine
    Flareon
    Crawdaunt
    Kingler
    Wailord
    Pelipper


    C rank:
    Corsola
    Magcargo
    Wigglytuff
    Dewgong

    everything else below

    This doesn't include the drops being proposed in this thread, however, which will probably have a large impact on the metagame.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
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  14. Durant

    Durant

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    Thanks for the rough viability ranking ill try to make a decent gen 3 NU team now :)
  15. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Cute Dawg
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    I dont see relicanth on that list you made. Hes a pretty strong pokemon in nu. Did he bump up to uu?
  16. eriados

    eriados

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    I put relicanth in C because I think it's mostly outclassed by Sudowoodo or Whiscash, but having Magcargo above it seems unfair to me, so I'll switch them since Relicanth is probably better than magcargo in the current meta.
  17. Floppy

    Floppy
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    eriados so why is shedinja garbage again?

    and why *exactly* should it be dropped to nu Oglemi?

    would be cool if there was some tiering guidelines defined or something
  18. Oglemi

    Oglemi THE DREAM IS REAL
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    The Pokemon I wanted to move down to NU would be both unused in UU and have minimal impact on the NU metagame. NU being the most "never used" Pokemon in the game. If Shedinja is used in UU then I wouldn't move it down to NU, but if it isn't, I don't see a reason to not move it down to NU. From what I gathered, Shedinja isn't really used in UU because Spikes are common, as are Leech Seed and Toxic. That, and most Pokemon have coverage for Shedinja since Fire and Rock are both common attacking types or coverage moves.
  19. eriados

    eriados

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    I don't know much of anything about UU but I don't forsee it being very good in NU. as I said above, there are 2 or 3 very good spikers and only 1 good spinner that would rather not be spending its time spinning. there are very few things that actually can't touch it
  20. Floppy

    Floppy
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    perhaps the uu metagame has changed now, but back when it was one of the more common tiers played, shedinja was pretty popular as it was the go-to momentum-shifting pivot when sd tentacruel, mono-muk and mono-grumpig was all over the place.

    given your grounds/basis for moving it down however, compounded with the fact that i dont actively play adv uu to validate what you've been hearing about the current state of the metagame, it would be pretty silly for me to argue that shedinja is indeed "used in UU" ...so i will just leave it at that.

    you addressed my main concern though (why you feel it should be dropped) and I suppose it's a legit way to go about it. i feel there's room for a more thorough, systematic approach however...though I haven't exactly (edit: fully) thought about one myself
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
  21. Typhlito

    Typhlito One Cute Dawg
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    Just a thought but how about adding persian to nu? I doesnt do very well in uu and fearow generally a better bander (I think). Its summary even calls it a novelty pokemon in uu. It does have alot of speed but it can be walled by a bunch of nu pokemon such as graveler, relicanth, whishcash, torkoal and more. So in a sense, it would be like a mini areodactyl; fast but manageable. Although it would give raticate competition for a spot, I think raticate's gut + band would keep raticate usable.
  22. Shiruba

    Shiruba

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    Ahh, there's a tier where my bro Arbok is not only usable, but pretty good? Pidgeot, too?

    Sounds sick.

    That said, I see Ariados in C in the viability thread, but I'm not totally sure what he does in NU, as there aren't any analyses for that in RS, only UU. Is he still a Baton Passer, or do more doors open up for him?

    Also, is this supported on PS?
  23. Oglemi

    Oglemi THE DREAM IS REAL
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    Persian could probably be dropped without any problems, I'll think more about it.

    Ariados's niche is trap passing, so that probably holds true in NU (I haven't personally tried it yet, but being basically immune to Fighting instantly gives it a niche).

    And no, it's not on PS yet afaik since ADV is still bugged all to whack.
  24. Oddish is the best

    Oddish is the best

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    I'm actually really excited for to be able to play this tier once it gets on PS. It's too bad that Bellossom pretty much outclasses Sunflora though :(
  25. Viscacha

    Viscacha

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    When is this tier planned to be released on PS? I'm excited to see some of my gen 3 favorites in battle Also, what would be good hold items? Since Life Orb wouldn't have existed yet, all I can think of is the choice items and leftovers. Are there any other good items?
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014

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