Gen 3 ADV NU: Backflow

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Welcome to my RMT, the first in this tier. I missed my 1k due to not being able to post due to ICBB.. so this can celebrate me being no longer ICBB. Idk if it matters but RMT's are shit ways to celebrate postcount glory lol. Not that it's really an important thing but shoutouts are fun *-*
A bit about ADV NU first.. it's a tier that is very fun and potentially very competitive and complex, and honestly deserves more exploration than it's received. Also, I love it for being a tier where I can use childhood favourites like Mawile and Flareon without it being a 'shitty gimmick' :]. Named it after a song as ya do

Anyway, to the team.

Overview:




TurnAround (Hitmonchan) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Rapid Spin
- Sky Uppercut
- Mach Punch
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
The only one with a totally dull spread, and the only one really fitting for a lead. Basically, glalie isn't going to get >1 layer of spikes on you, and most of the team is EV'd to handle threats at that point or possibly worse. HP Ghost is for haunter, I think Mach Punch is kinda filler, Protect might fit the team better. So few people to test with ;-;


Eliza (Flareon) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 56 SAtk / 136 SDef / 12 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Flamethrower
- Wish
- Toxic
- Protect
This cutie's one of my favourite Pokemon, and named after my highly cute girlfriend :3.. I found out that this was an alternative Wish user instead of lickitung; whilst it doesn't really handle Chimecho or Water types (neither of which Lickitung did particularly well, although I felt shadow ball+body slam wishtung was pretty great, whilst huntail more or less beats you), you get a great answer to mawile and the sunnybeamers of Tangela and Bellossom; The HP+Defense EVs let you survive without Spikes up a Choice Band Mawile Rock Slide so that should that suprise happen you're still prepared, and its special defense is so immense it's not a worry taking EVs away from it. The special attack EVs allow Flamethrower to get a guarantee'd OHKO on 252/0 Mawile. A little bit of speed creep since its speed tier is nice, but that's certainly customisable. The sunnybeamers are pretty much like 6HKOing you with lefties factored in the Sun so even with sleep they're not really overcoming you.


Lil' One (Lileep) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Suction Cups
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Recover
- Giga Drain
- Protect
- Toxic
I'm proud to have discovered this little Gem. Walls virtually every purely physical attacker bar Hitmonchan, Machoke, and Mawile. It's EVd so that Jolly CB HP Fighting Raticate fails to 2HKO without a critical hit or spikes (pumping up the Defense from the SpD EVs doesn't turn into a guarantee'd survive if anything bad happens,) whilst the Special Defense EVs are merely all that's remaining, but it helps against stuff like Specially Offensive Whiscash. Whilst it only resists normal and Electric, and has a few weaknesses that do matter, it has no 4x weakness, and insane defensive stats (61/77/87) which lets it put in incredible work. Whilst it offers little in team support, walling a large portion of the metagame is often worth it. Recover is truly great, meaning one pokemon less reliant on Clerical support.


Fable (Sableye) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 208 Def / 36 SDef / 4 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Recover
- Toxic
- Protect
- Shadow Ball
Sableye's also pretty insane, and like Lileep, sorely underrated. Its typing gives it no weaknesses, and it has Recover. Furthermore it's normal immune. The HP+Specially Defensive EVs allow it to avoid the 2HKO from +1 Chimecho's Hidden Power Dark, whist the small amount of added Attack EVs guarantee a 3HKO on maximally physically defensive Chimecho (it's a 2HKO versus 252/0 variants fairly easily too). All of the remaining EVs are pushed into Physical Defense to take on artibatiry things and stuff like Hitmonchan that it handles pretty easily (beating Chimecho AND Hitmonchan hehe bwoi) and it also beats Swalot fairly comfortably and Haunter too (Flareon does that too). A tiny bit here's invested into speed creep since its speed tier is vaguely cool, but it's not really very significant. Also, I get to have EVs in 5 stats :] Great as a spinblocker and explosion absorber of course.


Norbert (Roselia) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 60 SDef / 8 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Aromatherapy
- Spikes
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis
The other part of the clerical core, with Aromatherapy, alongside Spikes which is the main reason for using it over some other potentially fun Pokemon. It acts as a secondary grass type, doing stuff like checking huntail and Whiscash, but it fills no major defensive niche for the team, rather it provides clerical support on the back of some spinblocking by Sableye. I legitimately can't remember what these EVs did which means it wasn't especially cool. If anyone can find anything cool to do with it please comment :] Maybe something involving Synthesis versus something or other. Either way, the freedom of being able to handle Pokemon on both sides of the offensive spectrum is fairly neat, with its cool resistances to water, fighting, grass, and electric. Natural Cure is neat.


virtualboy (Dewgong) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Perish Song
- Sleep Talk
- Surf
- Rest
I mainly had this to stop dash lord Huntail and provide an anti-last-mon-mon with perish song, as well as help versus cro-sweepers (whiscash and chimecho are hardly problems, but being able to deal with Vigoroth is pretty vital since Sableye can't touch it). I think the EVs were meant to help with Vigoroth or something, but there's no Analysis of it so it's hard to tell what it'd run for Dewgong to be needing to handle it. If someone could improve my EVs on this that'd be nice =]

Main things that scare me using this team is well played Glalie (to an extent), Huntail, Sunnybeamers (my counter is good but it can be abused pretty easily), and Vigoroth, as well as any other particular stallbreakers that might have slipped my mind [can the team handle vigoroth is the question]

like, rate, also I managed to go a whole OP without being totally aids lol.

Oh also if it helps for those who don't play this meta, here's the Viability Rankings and Threat List
 
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Oglemi

Borf
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You have no switch-in for CB Rock-types (Sudowoodo/Graveler mostly). Dewgong revenges easily, and Chan can too, but they can't switch into Rock Slide, Earthquake or Explosion, and Lileep is thrashed by Graveler's Earthquake even with max investment (252/252+) (Choice Band Graveler Earthquake vs. Lileep: 184-217 (54.7 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.) Every time the Rocks get in on Sableye or Flareon, something's in danger of dying. And ya Vigoroth annihilates you, especially if it's SubPunch.

I think this can be remedied a bit by two changes, replacing Lileep with physically defensive Tangela and Sableye with specially defensive Swalot. Reason being: you gain a hard stop to Rock-types and a decent check to Vigoroth (0 SpA Giga Drain will break 252 HP Vigo Subs, and 252+ Focus Punch does 25.4 - 30.2% in return) with Tangela, and a hard check to Huntail and counter to Sunnybeamers with Swalot.

You lose a spinblocker and a Boom absorber with the loss of Sableye, but tbh spinner Chan is uncommon at best, and Swalot counters Chan as well.

The only weakness that's exposed a bit more is the Chimecho one, but Flareon is a good check and Dewgong has Perish Song for last resort and won't lose to Chime one-on-one thanks to RestTalk most of the time anyway (unless the Chime is RestTalk in which case hi Perish Song).


You're really close to actually accomplishing stall in ADV NU, good luck lol
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Hm I felt that dewgong+sableye could probably put a stop to vigoroth, but it was hard to tell due to the lack of analysis of it what variants I needed to prepare for. Tangela>Lileep's definitely sounding like an option. Flareon already counters sunnybeamers (to a limited extent but, basically, it can't be taken down without full support). Graveler's definitely scary.. I'd probably have been looking at trying to replace roselia first, whilst it acts as a limited win-condition due to spikes, as well as a cleric, I wonder if replacing it with a chimecho or something could work. Bear in mind flareon/sableye both have protect so being able to work out if it's rock slide or earthquake is reduced from being a prediction game to total knowledge.. Lileep counters any non-CB variant, and nothing else is bait for it to come in. The issue versus graveler basically is, if I take out an opposing pokemon with flareon or sableye after a protect, then it gets a free turn that's potentially scary. Nevertheless, the lack of a ground resist is relevant.
I'd consider tangela/bellossom>roselia but lacking in its utility of both clerical duties and hazard duties is a bit much. Dewgong's the only status absorber and it prefers being awake to being asleep.

What about some variant of Chimecho>Roselia, Heal Bell and Psychic both being given. Then my only concern realistically is Vigoroth.. Sableye beats any set lacking Shadow Ball/Earthquake + Bulk Up + Rest/Substitute (presumably then + STAB or fighting move).. if it lacks a fighting move then dewgong can probably force it out. Would running like Bulk Up>Mach Punch on hitmonchan maybe help? Also it's a minor option but Psych Up>Toxic on Sableye is also an option. Any of these options seem more appearing to you? I don't think larger changes than these are really needed to help deal with Graveler and Vigoroth. The only other question is of comparing maybe Swalot with Sableye.. for the slightly increased chan weakness (still basically fine) and larger fears versus Chime (although that's not the end of the world either without Sableye.. it's just a really great answer to chime) does it bring about any increased resolve versus Vigoroth and maybe Sunnybeamers [Sableye and Hitmonchan need to be used carefuy versus Sunnybeamer+Mawile]. Is there any EV spread for hitmonchan that might help versus either of these (or a particular set.. of course keeping rapid spin is still vital, and there's no alternative for this slot). Also I guess Chimecho can be EV'd to help a little with sunnybeamers, but I've not done calcs.

Summary:
Chimecho>Roselia for Ground immunity + keep heal bell
Adjust Sableye/Hitmonchan's sets to help with vigoroth?
Consider Sableye versus Swalot
Versus sunnybeamers - is there anything else can take them on before flareon in order to force them to sleep a worse wall? Is there any sensible adjustments to the team that make it less sunnybeamer weak? What becomes threats when flareon's sleeping, and how to build to counteract that?
:]

thanks very much for the rate. Imma be livin the dream *-*

Edit:
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 56 SAtk / 12 SDef / 136 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
New spread for Flareon. Still achieves the same things as before, but now outspeeds jolly max speed mawile (which is important since jolly max speed mawile could get off a successful SD pass when it comes in on lileep otherwise). I wonder if the bulk could be perhaps optimised but that's probably as good as it's gonna get.

Really need a complete set+EV spread for chimecho

Second Edit:
Lol if I have chimecho>roselia, I have Fighting/Dark/Psychic+Fire/Water/Grass. You couldn't make this innovation up.

Third Edit:
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 60 Def / 184 SDef / 4 Spd
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
Thoughts on this spread instead for Sableye?
+2 Chimecho Hidden Power vs. Sableye: 136-161 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery with this EV spread.. so it makes me more resiliant to Chime, but I don't know if me losing that defense will have a major impact. Since then I guess you have
Choice Band Hitmonchan Earthquake vs. Sableye: 196-231 (64.4 - 75.9%)
etc.
which means I become uhh more reliant on Chimecho to beat chan, which is not exactly super reliable.
Note that with the current spread (the physically defensive one) that EQ still has a chance to 2HKO, unless you include the factor of protect.
I guess the question is, how do I balance the factors of guarding against hitmonchan and chimecho using sableye and the rest of the team.. I think you could come up with a perfect answer if you disregarded 'hax', i.e. in this scenario, critical hits.. I guess the scariest team for me to face looks something like glalie/haunter/hitmonchan/chimecho/vigoroth/tangela lol. Sorta.. probably would either focus on building something to break me with vigoroth or something like tangela+mawile or something like glalie/haunter/hitmonchan/chime/raticate or pidgeot or something [something that forces in lileep].. lol I think the issue is maybe that I'm sort of hunting down the perfect team here. I think with either sableye spread, I have a good stall team, I just have slightly increased/decreased weaknesses to certain threats.
 
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Oglemi

Borf
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I mean to me you're missing the part where once most of your team is revealed all the Graveler (or Piloswine/offensive Whiscash/Pupitar) user has to do is click Earthquake and watch as everything on your team save for Dewgong dies (though Piloswine does 2HKO Dewgong too, CB Earthquake 53.6 - 63.2%, and yes Pilo will outspeed Dewgong most of the time). Tangela does pretty much exactly what Lileep does, but better. I think you're too hellbent on keeping it.

Chimecho>Roselia instead of Swalot>Sableye isn't /that/ bad an option I suppose, but if you do that without the Lileep change then Huntail literally sweeps you front to back (Dewgong has to get lucky with RestTalk to beat it one-on-one).

You will never encounter a Vigoroth without Shadow Ball or Brick Break/Focus Punch (unless it's a weird Bulk Up/RestTalk set), so do with that info what you will.
 

Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
with Chimecho you handle graveler fine don't you? I guess you could use a resttalk cleric chime..
Tangela lacks a normal resist or flying neutrality, and without it the team'd have a harder time handling murkrow/pidgeot/raticate.
Given that dewgong literally only comes in when there's only 1 mon left, or when huntail's in, it's fairly consistent I think. .. although I guess it's an additional check to Chimecho if Sableye needs it, but if I run the specially oriented spread then that's sorta dealt with.

I was testing a Chimecho like Calm Mind/Protect/Psychic/Heal Bell and I think some variant of that could probably check chan and huntail reasonably.. also bear in mind, toxic and protect nearly everywhere means that huntail gets a pretty short timer versus the team anyway, so if dewgong can check it like twice, your job's more or less done.

I know I am kinda hellbent *-*

if I run like a physically bulky Chimecho with idk maybe Psychic/Heal Bell/Protect/Toxic then I've got a way of stopping chan, the CB Rock/Ground types.

I think I need Psych Up Sableye to successfully handle Vigoroth.. but a crit might end me so hmm -_- how do stall teams beat this monster? Note the set I'm scared of is Substitute/Bulk Up/Shadow Ball/Focus Punch or Brick Break (SubPunch makes more sense in and of itself as a set though).

Also I forgot an importable, so here's one with all the custom changes thusfar:
TurnAround (Hitmonchan) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Rapid Spin
- Sky Uppercut
- Mach Punch
- Hidden Power [Ghost]

Eliza (Flareon) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 56 SAtk / 12 SDef / 136 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Flamethrower
- Wish
- Toxic
- Protect

Lil' One (Lileep) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Suction Cups
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Recover
- Giga Drain
- Protect
- Toxic

Fable (Sableye) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 60 Def / 184 SDef / 4 Spd
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Recover
- Toxic
- Protect
- Shadow Ball

Chime (Chimecho) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Heal Bell
- Protect
- Calm Mind

virtualboy (Dewgong) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Perish Song
- Sleep Talk
- Surf
- Rest


Basically as I see it, the team is good and fine apart from it loses to SubPunch Bulk Up Vigoroth and hitmonchan's a teensy bit scary maybe

--

I guess if I want to work on a better version I need to find a way to put on tangela.
Any other pokemon that beat vigoroth? Once I know what all my options are I can probably fit something somewhere n.n
 
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8-BIT Luster

Completely Unviable
Nice stall team wow
just recently found this thread so gonna drop a comment

Yh Vigoroth is a monster, not sure what you can do about that
chimecho> Rosie seems nice, the physdef variant checks chan reasonably well

Fite me more in this tier y/y
hax god charmeleon gonna tear u up
 

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