Gen 3 ADV Viability Ranking (OU)

Typhlito

One Active Dawg
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I kinda do agree with blaziken being ranked a bit too low. It can destroy many threats with fire blast/hp grass/sky uppercut and even can deal a hefty amount of damage to bulky waters with a well timed focus punch. It's just that duggy, starmie, aero and mence keeps it from being a bigger threat than it really is. I think it's more suited being a C rank mon at least somewhere above rhydon's rank.
 
I kinda do agree with blaziken being ranked a bit too low. It can destroy many threats with fire blast/hp grass/sky uppercut and even can deal a hefty amount of damage to bulky waters with a well timed focus punch. It's just that duggy, starmie, aero and mence keeps it from being a bigger threat than it really is. I think it's more suited being a C rank mon at least somewhere above rhydon's rank.
Seconding this. Blaziken can put in some work versus the right teams,and the mixed set is definitely a very solid one. However one set that I think remains a tad underrated is the legendary CB Blaziken,on paper at least it seems very easy to use,get inverses an active Skarmory or Celebi,or even Tyranitar and let rip with well predicted Focus Punches and the like. Do you know that a CB'd Focus Punch does up to 60% to CB Mence? One hit like that and it's gonna have trouble switching in ever again. And I think it would do around the same amount to Suicune and possibly much more to Swampert. I actually think,a CB Blaziken + Heracross core is something that should be looked into,obviously there is a nasty Dugtrio weak here,so perhaps pair it off with Porygon2?I really think that spamming moves of the same type has been an effective strategy in most generations of the game,so perhaps this one is also worth a try. MixKen is more diverse in that it has to make fewer predictions,but if a CB Blacken prediction comes off,more than likely not you're in the money.
 
Blaziken is a good mom definitely, but it does have a bunch of problems: Speed means it gets forced out by a lot of things, low defence means it gets demolished by a lot of things, and it also gets worn down easily which hurts as well. It can be good against the right teams, but most of the time it tends to struggle in this offensive metagame. Even so it IS quite threatening so I wouldn't be opposed to it moving up a few slots in D, I think C is a little much.

Also BrandonBeast if you are surprised Charizard is C rank, you have obviously never used it! Might elaborate if you ask for details, but all I will say is that that thing is deadly.
 
I'm not the biggest fan of Blaziken and I think the only reason to use Blaziken is to have a karate fighting fire chicken on your team. That being said, even if Blaziken is never the best Pokemon for a team, that doesn't mean it can't put in work when it is used. It's very difficult to switch in to and it can win games. The description for C rank says "They are often inferior to the higher-ranked one but have one or two advantages that give them a niche with proper team-support" and I think this kind of describes Blaziken perfectly. It may be inferior to other Pokemon, but that doesn't mean it can't be useful. I think C rank would be fine for Blaziken.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
Blaziken is a good mom definitely, but it does have a bunch of problems: Speed means it gets forced out by a lot of things, low defence means it gets demolished by a lot of things, and it also gets worn down easily which hurts as well. It can be good against the right teams, but most of the time it tends to struggle in this offensive metagame. Even so it IS quite threatening so I wouldn't be opposed to it moving up a few slots in D, I think C is a little much.

Also BrandonBeast if you are surprised Charizard is C rank, you have obviously never used it! Might elaborate if you ask for details, but all I will say is that that thing is deadly.
i thought Charizard would be like B rank because of how deadly it is with Belly Drum, it just requires some support to take down its checks.
 

eren

break necks, i'm the chiropractor
is a Tiering Contributor
tbh, while blaziken is a decent mixed attacker and actually a really good cb user. (i guess you can run a full out phys set or sub sd salac)having variety of moves to use effectively, i feel it has way too many weaknesses in order to really function effectively versus stall, offense, and even balance to an extent. Firstly, and the most notable of these weaknesses, is Blaziken's horrid speed for being an offensive mon. In fact, Heracross, I believe outclasses in every one of these rights except being a mixed attacker, and frankly, while fire is a decent attacking move in its own right, doesnt really cover things that switch in to it, namely suicune and other bulky waters that can take an hp grass (while pert walls non hp grass variants as well). To add insult to injury, blaziken has piss poor defenses. While i do believe blaziken should move up a couple of slots in D (maybe last in C) because it has a niche, i was just noting some major letdowns about it.

I actually think,a CB Blaziken + Heracross core is something that should be looked into.
n0n, I have several teams with that :]
CB Spam5ever
 
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Typhlito

One Active Dawg
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I mean yeah his speed isnt very good for an offensive mon but its not meant to be a sweeper (besides salac set). Its meant to be a stallbreaker which doesnt necessarily need a ton of speed. Nothing really wants to switch into most of its attacks without prediction. It actually can hold its own on a standard cune with spikes support or even just sand if it switches into a f punch since surf will not ohko it's standard ev spread without investment. Then sky uppercut can finish it off.
 

eren

break necks, i'm the chiropractor
is a Tiering Contributor
I mean yeah his speed isnt very good for an offensive mon but its not meant to be a sweeper (besides salac set). Its meant to be a stallbreaker which doesnt necessarily need a ton of speed. Nothing really wants to switch into most of its attacks without prediction. It actually can hold its own on a standard cune with spikes support or even just sand if it switches into a f punch since surf will not ohko it's standard ev spread without investment. Then sky uppercut can finish it off.
i understand however, in the provided example of wall-breaking vs suicune, we have these calcs compared to several fighting types:

(im under the impression we are using 3 layers of spikes? If not, ill redo the calcs n0n. and if u have 3 layers of spikes, we should theoretically have at least 2 for the cune/bulky waters side)
(another note: Suicune EVs: 252 Hp 252 Def Bold, Milotic EVs: 252 Hp, 244 Def, 12 SpA Bold, Vaporeon 252 Hp, 228 Def Bold)
(last note: blaziken is jolly, hera is adamant and medicham is adamant as well {i can add adamant blaziken calcs if u wish)

Vs Ribbon Fish Thing
Choice Band Blaziken Focus Punch vs. Suicune: 227-268 (56.1 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Choice Band Blaziken Sky Uppercut vs. Suicune: 130-153 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Suicune Surf vs. Blaziken: 251-296 (78.1 - 92.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes

Vs Slimy Eel
Choice Band Blaziken Focus Punch vs. Milotic: 317-373 (80.4 - 94.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
Choice Band Blaziken Sky Uppercut vs. Milotic: 181-213 (45.9 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Milotic Surf vs. Blaziken: 280-330 (87.2 - 102.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes

Vs 4 legged mermaid-like swimming dog
Choice Band Blaziken Focus Punch vs. Vaporeon: 350-412 (75.4 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
Choice Band Blaziken Sky Uppercut vs. Vaporeon: 199-235 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Vaporeon Surf vs. Blaziken: 300-354 (93.4 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO


Vs Ribbon Fish
Choice Band Heracross Focus Punch vs. Suicune: 257-303 (63.6 - 75%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
Choice Band Heracross Brick Break vs. Suicune: 130-153 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. Suicune: 206-243 (50.9 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Suicune Surf vs. Heracross: 99-117 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after 2 layers of Spikes

Vs Slimy Eel
Choice Band Heracross Focus Punch vs. Milotic: 331-390 (84 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
Choice Band Heracross Brick Break vs. Milotic: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Milotic Surf vs. Heracross: 109-129 (36 - 42.7%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes

Vs 4 legged mermaid-like swimming dog
Choice Band Heracross Focus Punch vs. Vaporeon: 396-466 (85.3 - 100.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Choice Band Heracross Brick Break vs. Vaporeon: 198-234 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Choice Band Heracross Megahorn vs. Vaporeon: 317-373 (68.3 - 80.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
Vaporeon Surf vs. Heracross: 117-138 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes


note: Medicham is actually a savage holy shit pls raise (note: medi can also run bp over fp for momentum when paired with magnets {fuck u skarm}]

Vs Ribbon Fish
Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Focus Punch vs. Suicune: 322-379 (79.7 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 3 layers of Spikes
Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Brick Break vs. Suicune: 161-190 (39.8 - 47%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after 3 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Suicune Surf vs. Medicham: 119-141 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes

Vs Slimy Eel
Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Focus Punch vs. Milotic: 415-489 (105.3 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO HELP
Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Brick Break vs. Milotic: 209-246 (53 - 62.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Milotic Surf vs. Medicham: 130-154 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes

Vs 4 legged mermaid-like swimming dog
Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Focus Punch vs. Vaporeon: 495-583 (106.6 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO click x :l
Choice Band Pure Power Medicham Brick Break vs. Vaporeon: 248-292 (53.4 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Vaporeon Surf vs. Medicham: 141-166 (53.8 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes


So, in the end, both Medicham and Heracross completely outdamage, have better coverage options, and outspeed. I think Blaziken's best niche against the two is its unpredictably in regards to whether its mixed with overheat, hp grass, or even sub salac (relatively outclassed by hera imo)

E: nothing really wants to switch into either medicham or hera as well without prediction as both hera and medicham have perfect coverage
E2: you cant switch up moves if you're banded ?.? and if u arent banded, its a 50/50 (iirc?) as to whether fp + uppercut kills cune after 3 spikes
 
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Typhlito

One Active Dawg
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I based what I said off a mixed set since its band set really is outclassed by hera and medi but what you say are valid reasons. I wouldn't rank it up at medicham's level either since it just doesn't hit as hard and it's not quite as scary to stall but like I said earlier, it prob can be ranked around rhydon's level since they are comparable in terms of strengths and weaknesses. (Plenty of love to rhydon tho. He's so manly)

Also was basing that example with 1-2 spikes since that's more realistic to achieve but it wouldn't change anything since blaze can get off 2 uppercuts since it could eat a surf if it had to.

Nice names btw :]
 
I don't think comparing blaziken's ability to take on waters to heracross' is really fair. Those waters are some of the best counters to blaziken, and some of the only reliable ones, meanwhile cune milo etc really shouldn't be switching in on hera, and hera can even switch in on them in certain scenarios and come out on top. What makes blaziken so scary is the number of different coverage moves and sets it can run effectively. Fire and fighting are pretty universal but after that it can be mixed with hp grass/ice, or hit something hard with a choice band boosted attack. With heracross you always kind of know generally what coverage moves you're gonna expect. Obviously heracross is way better than blaziken, it's an A rank pokemon and we're arguing to put blaziken in C, but my point is blaziken is not completely outclassed. It's inferior, but usable and that's what C rank is for.
 

eren

break necks, i'm the chiropractor
is a Tiering Contributor
I based what I said off a mixed set since its band set really is outclassed by hera and medi but what you say are valid reasons. I wouldn't rank it up at medicham's level either since it just doesn't hit as hard and it's not quite as scary to stall but like I said earlier, it prob can be ranked around rhydon's level since they are comparable in terms of strengths and weaknesses. (Plenty of love to rhydon tho. He's so manly)

Also was basing that example with 1-2 spikes since that's more realistic to achieve but it wouldn't change anything since blaze can get off 2 uppercuts since it could eat a surf if it had to.

Nice names btw :]
thnx :] (also,rhydon is indeed manly)
However, in order to beat cune with blaziken, you need two absolute max rolls vs cune (with focus punch + uppercut, 3 layers of spikes, an adamant nature, and sand) which imo is a lot of variables for a "stall breaker".

I don't think comparing blaziken's ability to take on waters to heracross' is really fair. Those waters are some of the best counters to blaziken, and some of the only reliable ones, meanwhile cune milo etc really shouldn't be switching in on hera, and hera can even switch in on them in certain scenarios and come out on top. What makes blaziken so scary is the number of different coverage moves and sets it can run effectively. Fire and fighting are pretty universal but after that it can be mixed with hp grass/ice, or hit something hard with a choice band boosted attack. With heracross you always kind of know generally what coverage moves you're gonna expect. Obviously heracross is way better than blaziken, it's an A rank pokemon and we're arguing to put blaziken in C, but my point is blaziken is not completely outclassed. It's inferior, but usable and that's what C rank is for.
to be honest, it was more a comparision of power and stall breaking capabilities than to show blaziken has a blatant weakness to bulky waters or that heracross completely outclasses (which is does obviously). Personally i cant see blaziken passing sceptile or cacturne (maybe im being too harsh?) because of all the flaws it does.



While I am at it, I would personally love to see Medicham find its way into Lower B Rank. While it does have speed similar to blaziken medicham packs wayyyy more punch (literally [medicham gets to 480 attack with pure power and then with band it gets to 620 attack... unboosted... [compared to banded blaziken's 558 attack and hera's 574 banded attack) than blaziken and even heracross. Its pure stall breaking capabilities with perfect coverage in brick break, rock slide, and shadow ball. It can also dent balance significantly and get a kill or 2 versus offense.

E1: cune can rest typh :l
 
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Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
May I ask why Slaking is C rank? Sure it has crazy high attack and good speed, but Truant is just so bad, it can make you lose momentum and the opponent could set up on you as you have to switch out. Overall, Slaking is not very good, it should drop imo.
 
Eh whatever, ranking the stuff below B is pretty subjective anyway, I just think Blaziken fits closer to the definition of C than it does to the definition of D. Seconding Armaldo for D. It's not great but you see it occasionally and it can actually break past standard physically defensive stall cores with its STABs. I also think Scizor could be a decent D poke. The Reversal set can actually be somewhat scary in late game scenarios.
 
May I ask why Slaking is C rank? Sure it has crazy high attack and good speed, but Truant is just so bad, it can make you lose momentum and the opponent could set up on you as you have to switch out. Overall, Slaking is not very good, it should drop imo.
It's because the relative value you can gain from using it is higher than the momentum drop on a well built slaking team. It's fast and has good coverage, so when played well it's monsterous. With that being said, the momentum drops put it where it is on the list, but it can be devistating. It's also a very valuable tool for chaining if it's on a team with hazard control.
 
Once again sorry for not keeping this thread very alive. It's been ~5 months since the last update... Props to slurmz for pushing me into reviving it. I'll try to not take as much time in the future.

Here is a summary of the changes, based on the posts in this thread and my own take on the tier:

S-rank
  • Left untouched.
A-Rank
  • Snorlax went down a few ranks (1st to 5th), thus leaving Zapdos as the top ranked Pokemon in A.
  • Salamence rose quite a bit, from 8th to 4th.
  • Jirachi and Heracross switched spots.
Salamence's rise has been advocated by a few players, like M Dragon, and I can totally get behind this rise. Spikes immune, strong hitter and revenger killer as a Bander, threatening set-upper and mixed attacker (which gained a lot of traction in the ADV Cup), Salamence has it all.

While Snorlax still does its job, I feel like the Pokemons higher in the rank either define more ADV (Skarmory, Metagross) or are more consistent and flexible to use (Zapdos, Salamence). It is very comparable to Metagross in today's metagame as a bulky sweeper with a boom option, but I feel like Metagross' set of resistance is a lot more valuable than Snorlax's SpDef bulk.

B-Rank
  • Gyarados is now above Milotic and Regice.
  • Ludicolo is now above Vaporeon.
Slight changes. Gyarados just eats some teams alive and fits very well in the tier's offense as a sweeper that can take on Swampert pretty well. Milotic and Regice both have flaws that turn people away most of the time.

Ludicolo's support and offensive sets both see usage nowadays thanks to its unique traits, unlike Vaporeon which is usually turned down as the team's bulky water (most player will rather go for Pert or Cune, or even Milotic).

C-Rank
  • Charizard rose right above Slaking. The other Fire/Flying Pokemon of the tier, Moltres, saw a similar rise and is now behind Lunatone.
  • Rhydon and Solrock dropped down to D.
I rose Charizard and Moltres for their abilities to brutalize bulky builds revolving around Skarmory/Swampert/Tyranitar/Gengar. Stabbed Fire attacks with Grass coverages are extremely hard to stop for these teams, especially if they don't carry Blissey (which can obviously be played around). They both have great tools to disrupt their checks (Focus Punch Zard and WoW Moltres) and to top it off, their typing gives them a defensive utility as safe MixGross and Celebi checks.

Solrock niche is way too small to stay in C Rank. Rhydon is often more of a bother than it's worth. It's horribly slow, has an awful set of weaknesses (Ground/Water/Ice/Grass) and is usually worse than Tyranitar.

D-Rank
  • Jynx, Alakazam and Blaziken all moved up in the rank.
Alakazam sheer speed and power makes it somewhat useful vs offensive teams, think of it like Starmie. It also speedties with Dugtrio! Jynx got moved up because M Dragon said so and Blaziken moved up thanks to popular demand, altho I still don't see why you would use it D:

And that's it! I had a hard time ranking the A tier so I feel like some discussion could be held over it.

Should Suicune move down to A+? Should Celebi follow suit?
Should Skarm move above Metagross?
Should Metagross instead move ahead of Zapdos?
Should Raikou drop to B?

Those are the questions that I had a hard time answering when I edited the rankings. I think all of these have good reasons behind them. Especially Raikou's drop, I don't think its potential LGS ability makes it as consistent and reliable as the other A-ranked Pokemons, especially when it struggles so much versus a lot of common Pokemons (Dug, Aero, Bliss, Gon/Pert combo and Snorlax/Ttar/Cele to a lesser degree).
 
I think raikou can definitely drop down to B. It's a great late game cleaner and is very dangerous in the right situations, but it's hard to fit on a team, provides very little defensive utility, and as mcmeghan said, struggles vs a few fairly common mons. I'm not too sure about the other questions, probably keep S rank as is, but the others I'm fairly ambivalent on. Also while I agree with gyarados being raised, I'm not sure how I feel about milo being so low, i would probably put both of them over claydol. Milo is definitely hard to fit on a team, but it's one of those pokes where when I can afford to use it, I will. Great mixed bulk coupled with a great defensive typing, marvel scale, and access to recover make it a very reliable pivot. Toxic variants can be very tough for defensive teams to deal with, as it's hard to really scare out without hard hitters. Access to hypnosis makes it one of the most reliable sleep inducers in the game. It has trouble countering a number of physical threats that swampert shrugs off such as aero and ttar, but if I have those covered elsewhere in my team and I need a bulky water, milo is always a strong consideration for me. Claydol on the other hand is a poke I only use when I have to, access to rapid spin and the rock + eq resist make it a hard to pass up glue mon, but it just fails to do much more than spin and temporarily force out a few physical threats, and I'm usually disappointed in it.
 
I rose Charizard and Moltres for their abilities to brutalize bulky builds
Nice word, friend.

I agree with the changes made. As for the changes proposed, the new Sleep Talk mechanics blow and thus I think Suicune should be A+, there was talk of it already but this cements it for me. These same mechanics chunk Zapdos pretty hard so I agree that Metagross, who was already neck-and-neck with it, should move up. Meta should remain ahead of Skarm as well, the bird is amazing as we all know but Gross is just incredible. If you don't have a Skarm (which it happily whales on with repeated attacks), it's going to take one of your pokes you really like with a boom unless you predict and switch in the Gengar you might not have.

Celebi should stay, I think. Less Sleep Talk means Resting is more dangerous so our friends Cune and Zap won't be able to Pressure stall its Leech Seeds nearly as well, and it annoys the shit out of so many offense teams whether it's purely defensive with support options (surprisingly underrated) or going the Sub route. I've never liked the all-out offensive CMer but its BP sets remain as powerful as ever. Keep it in S.

Raikou ggs a surprising amount of shit lategame but he also has many issues. I think he's fine in the upper echelons of B.

CB Blaziken lures Milotic (who is super good now with Hypnosis thanks to the new dumb mechs) and Focus Punches the living daylights out of it. Too bad it has to switch into like Metagross' HP Grass or something.

I think Articuno should drop to D. Its only good set is ResTalk (offensive sets are unfortunately bad, I've tried) and that took a huge blow. Also imo, Moltres should move up in C, definitely shouldn't be behind Lunatone. Lastly, I think Jynx is at least as good as Marowak and should thus move to the bottom of C. Maybe Alakazam as well.
 
Should Suicune move down to A+? Should Celebi follow suit?
  • Suicune no, its the best all-round water in the tier
  • Celebi yes, don't think its anywhere near comparable to the big 3 of Tar, Gengar and Cune
Should Skarm move above Metagross?
  • No. Metagross is the most versatile mon in the tier period. Can run a myriad of sets each as potent as the next. Vicious CB'er, hp grass lures Pert, and utility boom is always appreciated.
Should Metagross instead move ahead of Zapdos?
  • Yes, purely because it can boom and take a would be 'counter' with it to the grave. No mon in the tier opens holes in opposing teams like Metagross.
Should Raikou drop to B?
  • No. Still very dangerous late game with the right support. It's bulk gives it a great advantage. Bottom of A is fine.
 
Well, this is back.

Celebi should definitely stay in S because it is and will always be a top offensive/defensive threat and decimate unsuspecting fools. We all know why it's good.

Cune on the other hand......I've always disliked CroCune just cause I liked hitting hard but yeah I can see how the STalk mechanics are detrimental for Cune. Basically it's ability to play against offense and set up is compromised because you are banking on that wake - up which may never come (or spamming Sleep Talk for eternity and hoping that you'll get the move you need). Zapdos also gets its long - term defensive ability compromised by this so as much as it pains me to say it Meta is going above it for the time being. For top of A Rank I'd probably put it like Cune-Meta-Zap-Skarm-etc.

Skarm should stay behind Metagross for reasons prescribed, the metagame is not being kind to it atm. In fact I'd argue Mence could go above it cause it's more threatening than ever.

Raikou should stay bottom of A-. Despite all its issues it still cleans house of a lot of stuff while providing some defensive utility as well (can't believe that people forgot to mention it checking all of Zapdos, Gengar, Suicune and Starmie....shame). Dug is a troll and being outrun by Aero+Jolt sucks but these aren't enough to ruin it.

I know the top of A Rank is full of top rank stuff but seeing Jirachi so low feels wrong. I wrote a post a while back that mentions why it should move up a bit.
 

Typhlito

One Active Dawg
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Just a quick word since I'm rushing out the door but celebi should certainly stay in S rank. It's quite a meta defining mon in terms that its the sole reason several pokemon run hp bug and even with that, it just never dies. Status is only temporary because of natural cure and both it's offensive and defensive sets can put in work. Not to mention it has rare moves like leech seed and perish song which really messes with sweepers like snorlax.

Cune on the other hand did take a blow with the sleep talk mechanic but it doesn't mean crocune is no good any more. Just means that it's a bit more risky. Luckily for cune though, it's bulky enough to afford switching if it has to more times than not.
 
I'm a bit on the fence about cune, but I kind of agree with M Dragon here, I don't think the sleep talk mechanics should be enough to drop it. CroCune is one of many viable sets that cune runs, and imo it's not at all the most defining. The offensive ones were really what separated it for me, and of the defensive sets, roar cune was always the one that scared me most. Not to mention, it's not like crocune is unusable now. Celebi should definitely stay S rank. The defensive sets are annoying as hell, fill in a ton of holes in teams and can provide support in the form of phazing, heal bell, reflect and baton pass for trappers. Offensive sets on the other hand are extremely dangerous, swords pass can just flat out win games if your opponent makes one slip, same deal with cm pass and superbi is really hard to stop with proper team support.
 
Likes: zf

dekzeh

B is for BRUTUS
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Should Suicune move down to A+? Should Celebi follow suit?
I would agree with Suicune moving down, but also fine with it staying, it's the best all around water type, with great offensive and defensive potential, but unlike the other S Ranked mons, it doesn't shape the metagame to the same level and is not as versatile. Plus it's defensive sets took a hit with the new Sleep Talk mechanics. Celebi however is definitely S rank to me. It has huge versatility (offensive sets, defensive sets, boost + baton pass, sub seed baton pass, so on really) and theres simply no universal answer, it's a mon that can win the game in one turn if you expect a set and have your switchin caught by something different from the expected.

Should Skarm move above Metagross?
I agree with smurf when he says Metagross is the best mon in the tier at opening holes, it's offensive potential is matched only by Tyranitar IMO, however I do feel Skarm shapes the metagame a lot more cause you know, spikes. I guess what I'm saying is: Meta is the better mon, Skarm is more influentional.

Should Metagross instead move ahead of Zapdos?
Yea, Zapdos defensive set now is near unusable, and while offensive is still very very good, it became a lot more one dimensional and needs a lot of support to break through teams.

Should Raikou drop to B?
Yup. B seems fine, while there are games that it just wins, most of the time it find no times to boost, and when it does, its usually against very passive teams that carry some of its best counters aka Blissey. In that case, you're almost always better off using Jolteon instead.

Other things: Charizard is ass and Moltres is much better, still niche though. Pory2 and Mag could rise to lower A, Cloyster should be above Regice.
 

Typhlito

One Active Dawg
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So a couple days ago I just randomly thought of how kind the sleep talk mechanic has been to a pokemon like swellow with its excellent speed and guts since it can potentially stay asleep for most of the match. With spikes support and magneton to keep skarmory and foretress away, it can potentially take down more offensive frailer teams while being able to put dents in bulkier teams. The fact that it has to switch out a lot to keep it form waking up is not a big deal since it loves to hit and run anyway. On paper, it seems like it had huge potential and while it was pretty impressive when I gave it a try, there were a few problems with it such as relying on the opp to carry a status mon. If they lack one, it's power is not that great compared to aero. It's power once it's put to sleep or burned is great (making it a good but shaky gar switch in) although admittingly slightly less than expected. Also sleep talk comes with its own issues since you have to rely on luck to land on the right move sometimes. However in a meta where rest being a form of recovery is becoming rarer and sleep moves being seen more than ever, it does seem pretty capable at weakening walls and cleaning games. So I want to nominate it to bottom C rank due to the cons of using it not really overshadowing it's pros.