Gen 3 ADV Viability Ranking (OU)

Typhlito

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I want to nominate quagsire for high D rank. While its a poor man's swampert stat and type wise, its ability water absorb gives it a very good niche in ou. It allows it to wall opposing swamperts pretty well fearing only toxic. Also, while it does lack roar, it does have utility moves in haze and yawn to wall the likes of cm cune. Not to mention its an excellent user of counter.
 
jirachi above mence
It's an absolute menace especially with WishTect and Body Slam shenanigans (aside from just the usual CM sets) but not quite - top 10 though, to me it's just behind Mence.

Top of A to me is Meta, Skarm, Mence, Lax, Jira, with Pert Dug and Zap just behind.

Quagsire definitely sounds cool (water immune is amazing just about anywhere), though it does constitute a poorer defensive mon on the Physical side. Some more discussion would be nice.

ADV is fine, people need to stop pining for Zap and start learning to play (and break stall) without it and there's still plenty of great options as far as that goes.
 
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Bump?

I've argued this elsewhere but I think Swampert deserves to be the first Poke outside of S rank. I think Tar/Gar are the only two Pokes with a greater presence and influence on the current metagame than Pert. Swampert is a one stop shop for checking all of Mence/Tar/Aero/Meta/Flygon. Now, he can't do it all at once, but neither can Suicune or Milo. The Rock resist is arguably more important than Milotic's access to Recover, simply to avoid BS Rock Slide hax at the end of the game. Pert obviously has his flaws, but consider how many random things waste a moveslot on an otherwise garbage move like HP Grass just so they're not walled by him. Mixed attackers (thinking specifically of MixMence) have definitely risen in popularity as of late, but they typically don't have hard counters outside of Milotic anyway. I know these are viability rankings and viability =/ usage, but Swampert has got to be a top 5 used Poke in the tier. He's just that important and that strong in the metagame.

Also, is Venusaur really not anywhere on the list or am I just blind? Anyone who knows me has probably heard me tell them how good I think he is, but for those who haven't, here goes:

- He gets Sleep Powder, which is amazing
- No 4x weakness (when compared to Celebi) means he's less Dugtrio weak
- Toxic immune is actually a really useful trait and it gives you one more way to pivot from, say a Swampert -> Venusaur when facing Milotic (just one example)
- Overall awesome bulk affords you the option of staying in vs. heavy hitters and going for a crucial Sleep Powder/Leech Seed
- 4x Grass resist is also cool for pivoting vs. mixed attackers
- With Sludge Bomb, you forever wall the Electrics of the tier (even HP Ice doesn't do a lot unboosted), bar the rare Drill Peck Zapdos
EDIT: Celebi does the same, obviously, but can't stop Raikou from setting up outside of Perish Song, which is a key difference between the two.
He's definitely got his drawbacks, most notably the lack of reliable recovery, sandstorm and Spikes weak, and not a ton of offensive presence, but he is absolutely viable in ADV OU. I don't know where exactly he fits in the viability rankings, but he almost certainly belongs on the list, especially when we're ranking things like Sableye. In my opinion, he's better than the majority of the C tier, but I'm just a homer.

Thoughts?
 
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M Dragon

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Swampert:

Defensively it is a monster (can wall some of the main physical threats). However it is also very easy to lure thanks to its 4x weakness to Grass.
Mons such as Metagross and Salamence are amazing offensively and defensively and should be the top 2 mons in A.

Should Swampert be higher? I think it should. However I think both Metagross and Salamence should be above Swampert.

Venusaur:

Yes, it should be there. Just add it in C
 
I'm open to the idea of Metagross and Salamence being above Pert - even if I wouldn't personally order them that way - for their aforementioned offensive and defensive capabilities. Swampert is fairly limited in its number of viable sets (standard defensive, EndPert, and CursePert), but I don't think a strong argument can be made against him as the most important defensive Poke in the current metagame.

The 4x Grass weak does really hamper him and he's easy to lure like you said, but almost every capable player will check for HP Grass from Pokemon X with a series of switches. One thing to consider - both Celebi and Swampert are hindered to a degree by their 4x weaknesses. Why is HP Grass so much more common than HP Bug? There are number of reasons for this, some more obvious than others, but I think bottom line it's a testament to Pert's impact on the metagame.

Glad to see Venusaur added :)
 
Confirming that Venu's legit. Its been used and abused in recent times and the fact it wasn't there already was probably an oversight.

Swampert is great but I think Mence and Meta are just out and out better than it - both have a solid defensive and ridiculous offensive presence that allows them to straight up swing games in a way Pert can't really do. HP Grass being common isn't really an indicator of Pert's influence, back on page 2 MoxieInfinite said 'I'm sure if Meta could use a move that'd hit Suicune for 4x super effective damage it'd use it', and the same goes for Milotic - in fact HP Grass allows Meta to put a bit more damage on waters in general and not risk missing Meteor Mash. Heck, Pert also gets pressured a lot by Toxic, Spikes, and Bulky Teams in general, which kind of diminish its overall utility, and it needs a decent amount of support to avoid lures. Mence on the other hand, rarely gets pressured because of its ability to swing between a variety of moves - threatening Toxic, Fire Blast on Skarm, it can toss a Wish to ease Zap / Cele's entry on the bulky water, or just all out attacking against a weakened check. Meta doesn't quite have this versatility but makes up for it with the threat of Meteor Mash attack boosts and Explosion, which allows it to act as a catch-all check to the tier (it's usually bulky enough to live the hit and boom on the offender). I mean, these two are the cream of A and there could even be said something about them moving to S, cause they're just that good. Pert...it's great, but yeah.
 
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Time for my once-a-year post in the Viability Rankings thread!

I'm bumping this because I want to propose something potentially controversial. I think Tyranitar and Gengar should be the only S-rank Mons, and Celebi and Suicune should drop to A (somewhere, I don't really care).

To me, Tyranitar almost gets better by the day, simply because of the absurd number of viable movesets it can use. It has the best movepool in the game, and the stats to use literally every single one of those moves (not counting Tackle and shit). It's indescribably good by this virtue alone. Seriously hop on ladder and check out the number of insane Tar movesets you'll see within your first 10 or so high ladder games. All of them are good too! Will not spoil anything in particular, for the sake of their owners who'd probably like to keep them secret, but trust me on this one.

Similarly, Gengar seems to be getting better as well. About a year ago I was really down on that Mon, since Pursuit Tar was being soooooo spammed at the time. It still is, but necessity is the mother of all invention, and thus Gengar started developing ways of beating Tar on its own. There are a number of ways it does this, but I won't list them all. Anyway, WoW is still incredibly hard to switch into, the Speed tier is just as good as it has ever been, that coverage, the way it has *just* enough bulk... It's the whole package. Absurdly good and centralizing Mon. Every single ADV team is weak, perhaps extremely so, to at least one version of Gengar. I'd argue that Tyranitar is the best Mon in ADV, but Gengar is the hardest to switch into.

So far I've only discussed the case for Tar and Gar to remain in S-rank - something I don't think anybody would dispute. Here are my arguments against Celebi and Suicune:

Every defensive Celebi set has become horrendous Skarmory bait. Like, way worse than Swampert Spikes bait (isn't this the number one complaint of Swampert, lol?). It is still obviously an excellent Mon and people started tailoring its spreads to beat other OP Mons in the tier (shoutout Astamatitos and Fear for the SpDef spread), but man, it brings so many other unintended weaknesses to any given team that you need to support it in order for him to function properly. Isn't that by definition NOT an S-rank Poke? Sure, it's still a real bitch to kill, but it doesn't offer nearly enough offensive and defensive presence simultaneously in my opinion. Offensive sets are still excellent, as are the Baton Pass ones. But those sets have longevity issues and also worry about anything fat, fast, or physical (Aero, Dug, Mence, Flygon, Tar, and Meta all have a way to either force it out or beat it outright). Yes it is amazing at staying alive and supporting shit with Heal Bell, Leech Seed, passing Subs or Boosts etc., but I think it's just way too Spikes weak to be considered for S-rank.

Suicune has a different set of problems - not that it isn't Skarm bait too because it is (everything is but Magneton). For me, I really have a hard time justifying the (lack of) longevity on his offensive sets. This is a freaking Suicune. It's not supposed to die! But it always seems to bite the bullet before doing enough work in my opinion. And it's so damn slow. Seriously it takes like a million EVs just to reach a respectable Speed tier on the offensive set. The Substitute set is really scary at times, but it also requires almost the perfect matchup for it to work properly. Defensive ones will always be his best set and only legit chance at sweeping, but those have huuuuge problems with Boomers (Meta and Snorlax basically, but even an Explosion Gengar + anything faster with an Electric move to follow up), they aren't fantastic at switching in on stuff early and mid game with Sand and Spikes in play, and you forfeit momentum as soon as you click Rest. I know that a boosting Suicune that just Rests on your Blissey is extremely terrifying. I've lost to more than my fair share of them in my day. But they require the user to play perfectly in order to work properly. Seriously, one misstep and now you're in range of that MixMence's HP Grass. It's just not a Poke with a lot of room for error in my opinion. Here is a damage calc. that illustrates my frustrations with Suicune:

0 SpA Suicune Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 190-224 (47 - 55.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

*Groans*

I'll go back to the argument that Suicune requires the support of other Pokes in order to really succeed in its goal. That doesn't sound S-rank to me, so I can't endorse its position there.

Anyway, let me hear what you guys think!
 

imo defensive Suicune ironically can't be used as a bulky water at all,it is the one water that imo at least provides not too much support to the team in terms of switching into like CB Meteor Mash or CB Rock Slides from Gross/Tar; the best teams for defensive Suicune are probably Magneton+Claydol(possibly even wants Dugtrio+Rain Dance) teams, if only because imo even 1 layer of spikes with Sand down, means more likely than not Suicune will just be resting all game; it's like Snorlax in that it is really spikes vulnerable, and hard to get going under sand. There's a reason why most teams still opt for Swampert(one of the best pivots in the game), instead of the more dangerous(on paper) Suicune.

Even teams that on paper have no real Rest CM Cune check, can beat it via rest looping, with stuff like CB Aerodactyl coming in on the rest turn under sand.If you have to talk of the most effective Suicune set, to me its probably still just offensive CM; but that set is prone to getting Toxic traded on it via Swampert/Skarmory/etc. Set with the most potential upside as stated above is defenitely SubCM, that set under sand though probably has only one good chance to sweep per game, although versus teams that have stuff that it abuses like Leech Celebi or IB+Fire Blast+Toxic Blissey it has chances to get very easy setup/sweeps. More traditional offensive Suicune sets, probably want stuff like Boom Regice/Boom Gengar+Dugtrio to create openings for it(basically some kind of special offense? doesn't have to be CM Spam though);



on the topic of sand hurting the viability of a lot of stuff, in my opinion if there was an A- rank, I wouldn't mind Snorlax being pushed down to it; it's kind of Suicune in that its most dangerous set, requires Magneton, and rapid spin support. Other sets like mixlax have steadily become less and less effective, Curse+Boom isn't as effective at trading with Skarmory as it used to be; my gripe with MixLax especially is that unless you catch Gengar on a switch with Shadow Ball, you're really just gonna get will-o-wisp'ed and basically be carrying dead weight. I also don't like how Zapdos under sand(especially if its not rest Zap), basically hurries MixLax into self-destructing much quicker than it'd like. Mixlax is usually thrown on to more physically oriented teams as a sponge but vs stuff like Zap/+1 Offensive Cune Hydro with sand, it really is just a whole slot dedicated to trading with boom.



I've always thought that Gengar is the best pokemon at abusing spikes, so I'm glad to see that other people think its amazing. Stuff like HP:Grass Gar becoming more popular has helped it counteract the trend of Pursuit Tyranitar being everywhere, while also letting it kill Swampert without having to eat Torrent Hydro Pump from higher ranges. Hypnosis is also amazing at cheesing teams right now, especially if you get the chance to use Hypnosis as Pursuit Tar comes in(even better with Spikes down) there are teams that you might just clean from that point on, which frankly is pretty ridiculous. Add to that the fact bulky gar takes a CB Aerodactyl Rock Slide(quite comfortably actually), and if running 252 HP/112 sp.def(Taunt+WoW with this is brutal) can switch out of a tyranitar's Pursuit in order to trap it with Dugtrio, and that only adds to the package. Gar with spikes down and Hypnosis or Taunt/WoW can also severely pressure Blissey(can just boom on it too I guess), great mon.

Gengar when using Giga Drain, even if it catches Pursuit Tyranitar on a switch-in (the extremely bulky one that is the norm), 4HKOes Tyranitar; you gain a bit of health in the bargain so now you have a Tyranitar that can be 3HKOed by Giga (barring being Pressure burned by stuff like specially defensive Zapdos) vs a Gengar that is now forced to play the Pursuit / Crunch game. Even if you're 112 Special Defense Gengar (the currently popular set) you escape with 12% and lose on the next repeat of this scenario; if you stayed in predicting Pursuit you now have a ~65% Gengar and a Tyranitar that is still 2hko'd by Giga Drain. So now you have to win another Pursuit / Crunch turn (where the worst option I guess for them is Pursuit being used and you staying in). So only after staying in on Pursuit twice in a row do you win (maybe thrice? I highly, highly doubt this though), and if you lose; then you lose basically the best abuser of Spikes in the game. Swampert (if reasonably healthy) being able to take a Giga Drain and blast you with a torrent boosted Hydro Pump is another notable reason probably.

148 SpA Gengar Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 44 SpD Swampert: 255-300 (63.1 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. (This is actually inaccurate since bulky Gengar will opt to run way less Special Attack, since I am talking in the context of Spikes abuse)

If running Hypnosis Giga Drain Gengar vs a Swampert in a 1 vs 1; you probably are better off trying to Hypnosis twice, then Giga Draining straight up; especially if you are chipped.

Hidden Power Grass changes this especially with Spikes down, and even more so if you opt to double out the first few times you show Gengar, and rack up Spikes damage on Pursuit Tyranitar.

60+ SpA Gengar Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 147-174 (36.3 - 43%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

60+ SpA Gengar Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 323-380 (79.9 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

60+ SpA Gengar Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 275-324 (68 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Gengar Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar: 154-182 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (some players opt to run far more Special Attack like this)

The damage recovered from Giga Drain can often be worth it, but for some teams / players being able to remove Pursuit Tyranitar much easier is worth it. Especially since I regard Will-O-Wisp Gengar with Spikes down to be one of the most effective (albeit against common strategies) in ADV. It doesn't look too important at first glance, but small stuff like this can make all the difference.

Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 48 Def / 8 SpA / 112 SpD / 88 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Punch
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Fire Punch/Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp

A Gengar set like this -> a Choice Band Dugtrio is also quite a reliable way to remove Tyranitar (especially if it had to eat an attack or Will-O-Wisp while coming in) because most bulky Tyranitar EV for Dugtrio's Earthquake, so a little bit of residual damage is needed.

Bulky Dugtrio (credit to MDragon) is another cool partner for this set. It's faster than the majority of Dragon Dance Tyranitar at +1, able to take a bulky Dragon Dance Tyranitar Earthquake with no prior damage, and can even come in on a chipped 252 Modest Blissey Ice Beam (maybe aimed at Gengar) to execute a trap. This also lives 92 Special Attack Celebi(in retrospect this might be the wrong benchmark lol, if it is someone please correct me) Hidden Power Grass ~65% of the time, which is useful since a lot of teams will use Celebi to help alleviate the pressure Gengar is exerting with Will-O-Wisp (although this can very easily go wrong with Spikes, Ice Punch rolls, and other similar things).


Going back to the spike bait thing, imo the only real way to not be spike bait right now, is either Magneton+Claydol; run full out offensive teams(like Hera/CB Gross/Mence/DD Taunt Tar/Endeavor Pert/Aero or CM Spam) or no spike offenses(Zapdos/Offensive Celebi/MixMence/DD Tar/CB Aero/Pert); spamming taunts with Gar/Skarm/Tar/Weez also helps; stuff like the more recent Fire Blast Blissey also obviously helps more defensive teams stop spikes from coming up too easily.



Since most of this post has just been me restating very obvious points, I want to do something funny. I want to suggest Skarmory for a rank above A but below S(if possible), Skarm has single handedly warped the game, into the Protect+Toxic+Spikes meta we have as of now. if it does become S it'd probably be as a result of how amazing it is defensively. And it is! Skarmory is the best spiker, and a key defensive component as well on many teams; Skarmory between itself, bulky gengar and tyranitar can maintain hazards vs any team, and this is big reason why this is hands down the engine room of any TSS used in ADV atm. Want to mention that bulky mie without Magneton isn't very good at keeping hazards off, and that offensive mie is still the best set. The fact that it can spin on that(one time a game probably) is a bonus. Heck on certain teams(BKC's famous Cele Skarm Mag comes to mind) even WITH a magneton on the other side, you can potentially set up a situation to end up with three layers, which is kind of crazy frankly.
VIL skarm warrants a mention, but its a meme; Sp.Def is infinitely better, all HP:ground+sub does is cheese physical offenses centered around magneton(think Hera+mag+lax)



Jirachi could also be a bit higher now, superachi is back with a bang(no it doesn't need to be on a CM Spam); while sets like BSlam+Fire Punch Sp.Def(thanks Astamatitos , this provides amazing support with out being too big of Spike bait vs Skarmory, and completely stops forry from using spikes vs you) , or the fear Toxic+Tect phys def(as featured in steelwork by Foggi ,this set literally sits on Swampert, and softens up bulky waters for a late game clean via either of Aerodactyl/Tyranitar). Even the traditional Wish/CM Psychic set is amazing vs bulkier traditional forry TSS' when paired with Dugtrio.

Might not even need that though, Toxic allows it to kiil the best counter on that style of team(traditionally some pursuit tar variant); older versions of this style of team used TWave Blissey, which actually was extremely helpful by allowing you to just trade Seismic Tosses, and then bring Swampert in on the Wish turn to pressure Jirachi, but with Toxic,Seismic Toss,Ice Beam being the most common set on Blissey(and sometimes CM) this set can definitely shine again. Heck even Psychic/Wish/HP:Grass/CM sounds very good vs that sort of team; stuff like Jirachi+P2+heracross, is also something that could be used more if only to hedge vs dugtrio TSS' which is coming back again.



I think Pert's a tad low as well; it might be spike bait, but it is by far the best pivot in the game(I think 158 speed or so might be good on Swampert right now, get the jump on MixGross[great if you're running a forry team], be faster than all but UD 's Blissey set, and even be faster than slower MixTar's); I want to say that Endeavor Swampert is a beast as well(lot frailer then though...); Only thing that I think really counts against it is the trend of physicals such as Salamence, Flygon and Metagross frequently using Toxic(with Metagross in particular sometimes using a very bulky Toxic Protect set, that easily tanks hits from Swampert, and is particularly effective in tandem with Magneton). Even the fact that Blissey runs Toxic a lot, makes it tough to want to stay in and force Blissey to Softboiled with EQ. Because without either of Rest, or Heal Bell, a Toxic'ed Swampert is a huge liability(especially due to it having no reliable recovery move).


+

This isn't major but I almost feel like Claydol NEEDS Magneton to actually ever get the chance to spin, without being toxiced(even once Skarm is gone,Hypnosis Gengar can still kind of cheese you); between Sp.Def Gar/Pursuit Tar/Tox+Tect Skarm without Mag in spite of all its bulk it kind of feels like it gets only one or two chances to rapid spin. I mention this because in the case of Starmie, at least it has blistering speed+offensive presence(on the 3 attacks+spin set anyway) to make up for it; and in the case of DD Tar, Starmie arguably can check it better; if you have a spike sack, or come in on a DD, offensive Starmie outspeeds and does a hell of a lot more to the standard bulky DD Tar. Unlike Claydol which literally is setup fodder for the bulky DD Tar set. Vs Starmie I guess Jolly DD Tar, would make the scenario I described not hold true? But that set is much rarer. I'm not nomming Claydol down, but I think it needs mag to really shine. Explosion+Dugtrio is a p cool trick as well. Heck even mag+dug+Claydol isn't bad at all.



Houndoom is also kind of slept on, but definitely is in the right slot; Houndoom uses Pursuit, but provides nowhere near as much defensive utility as Tyranitar. But again I don't really use this enough, so more info would be nice.



I want to finish off this wall of text with a nomination of my own; I think Moltres should be at least B or low A(not sure if this is a thing); it's a solid filler on forry teams, prevents spikes by virtue of its STAB and in general with a sub+wow set is very troublesome for anything but blissey to really deal with comfortably. Being faster than Heracross is great too, too many defensive teams crumble the moment they are facing down a +2 Heracross(I guess a lot of these sort of teams carry dug for stuff like this).


EDIT:

Wanna talk about 2 of the D ranked mons as well; I think Donphan is better than D, only good team I've seen it on is Cune/Bliss/Mag/Skarm/Don/TTar, but on that its pretty solid; is a much better back up rock resist to DD Tar/Aero than Dol would be imo, but again don't rly use this mon; if someone uses it more, it'd be awesome to hear more; I guess this mon is great with like a mag/a non swampert water, but on paper Claydol does that too.


Alakazam is the last thing I wanna bring up; I've seen CM+3 attacks actually be a pretty good cleaner, like a much frailer, more powerful Jirachi(being faster than Gengar/not having to speed tie with base 100s) isn't too shabby. It obviously provides 0 defensive utility, so that's a huge mark against it; Cowboy Dan can probably say what makes it good, better than me.

just to make it clear, not nomming these two to move up or anything, just wanna hear some opinions on them; and wanna ask where everyone thinks they should be.


EDIT:
Looks like I'll be talking about 4 other C ranked mons: Umbreon/Weezing/Camerupt
and Regirock.


Umbreon gets a lot of bad press, but its still better than a lot of C rank, it Pursuits Gengar quite easily(and forces burn on to it!) without inducing Sand; quite obviously useful for some stuff like Snorlax/Cune etc;

Taunt/MLook Pass is gross but owns some stalls really badly(doesn't have to be on a bp chain team);


Weezing gets Taunt! It's a great status platform, and pressures Blissey/Celebi(the two best Natural Cure mons) with Sludge Bomb, so odds are you'll catch something with a permanent status(vs a lot of teams this'll be pursuit tar, which still isn't a BAD target);
along with this it has a reasonable boom+again makes sure that a defensive team doesn't just autolose to Heracross which is great with the influx of SD Heracross recently; HP:Fighting is kind of a good option to stop special tar from being annoying.


Regirock kind of feels like it doesn't belong in C; its mostly a phys spam mon, that has great boom targets in bulky waters and can also run other wacky v useful stuff like Counter and Thunder Wave. I feel like its p decent, but at the same time idr use it, so if anyone has any experience with it mind chiming in?


Camerupt definitely has a place on Boom Spam teams, or no spikes offenses as a way to beat Gengar reliably. Stops skarm from spiking, and sometimes catches a non water boom target like Blissey/Salamence? Again I don't use it too much


EDIT:

There's no way Vaporeon and Milotic both should be in the same rank, Milotic is undeniably much better(while still being worse than Swampert imo); I see Vaporeon v rarely, and more so than the traditional bulky water sets, I see more offbeat stuff like Hydro Pump+CursePass from it; idt it has any real niche(except that) with all of Pert/Milo/Cune existing though.


EDIT:

if Venusaur hasn't been added yet, that's definitely a B mon at least. It has the BEST lead matchup spread with it "winning" vs all of Gross/Tar(barring lum or misses)/Suicune/Zapdos(can even break the subs)/SubSeed Cele/can come out on top vs Hypnosis Gar 30% of the time/(i guess it wins vs the v rare milo+pert leads? those aren't really a thing though)/Skarm/Forry(p rare kind of meh too)/Mixlax(not really a thing....);

While I get that lead matchup isn't really a thing in ADV per se unlike in DPP, starting off a battle with a good matchup(and getting a sleep in to boot!) isn't bad at all!

It's pretty bad vs Mence/Moltres lead though; the rare 3 attack wish+Psychic rachi lead is pretty nasty vs it as well.

Also provides an amazing pivot vs Sp.Def Zapdos, Celebi kind of does this too along with instant recovery; but not being immune means that eventually you are forced to switch out and risk something valuable being Toxiced.


http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-viability-ranking-ou.3503019/page-4#post-5675028

Triangles was right all along....(3 years ago too!)

realize this was very long so:
tl;dr Cune a bit down maybe? Lax a bit down? Gar up/skarm up/molt up/jirachi up/Pert up maybe?; me talking about C/D ranks that no one really uses. oh and Venu up.
 
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Triangles 2017 ADV OU Viability Ranking

So in about June last year I made my second RSE viability rankings for the post RestTalk meta, and at the time I thought they were pretty good. I had shit like Pert at number 2 and Zap in B rank because that was sorta the way the meta was, but that's obviously wrong now. I decided to update this list for right now in the settled meta post RestTalk to account for the last year and a half's worth of teambuilding.

S Rank
Tyranitar - This guy remains at number 1. He's just so versatile and functions as both an offensive powerhouse in his own right and an anti-meta mon which tears apart a lot of common team structures. Pursuit Tar is stronger than it's ever been before, and in the last year we've seen some new SubPunch sets, which are powerful breakers of defensive teams. DDTar is as meta shaping and threatening as ever, despite being slightly less common than before. Bandtar is quite a bit weaker right now but other sets are much stronger than they've ever been before. Sand is an S in TSS, and as such remains integral in many team structures. He's undisputedly the most powerful and dominant mon in the tier, but is also incredibly healthy for the meta and keeps other shit under control. I can't express my love for this guy enough.
Gengar - Gar takes the number 2 slot. He's similar to TTar as hes such a versatile guy - he can Wisp and Taunt and Hypno shit with a fat spread and function well on defensive teams with Spikes, or go aggressive and fire off powerful special moves and take out a blob with Boom. Fire Punch is something we've seen a lot of Gars using in the last year and I think that development adds to his strength a lot. Gengar also has an incredible typing and finds a lot of easy ways to get in and hurt shit and apply pressure. The power of Gar is partially why Pursuit Tar is so good right now.
Skarmory - Skarm sits at number 3 - this guy is the number 1 source of Spikes in RSE and also the number 1 Toxic user, the T and S in TSS. His defensive capabilities and typing are incredible, and a lot of teams have to bend over backwards to make sure his brand of team style doesn't straight up shit on them. Protect is an incredibly good move, and that and RSE Lefties turn timer mechanics and an immunity to all of T, S, and S keep Skarm very healthy if he doesn't get magged and is played well. This is such a strong mon who enables a lot of defensive builds and makes them so powerful.

A Rank

Suicune - Cune is back to being the number 1 water. In a TSS-heavy meta, you'd think that he might struggle, as i certainly did last year with my lower ranking of him. However, it turns out that he's just that strong. Offensive Cune is the glue for every CM heavy team ever, and can really bust through shit with powerful HPumps and put teams on the ropes in a matter of a couple turns, and CroCune genuinely isn't as bad as one might expect. If he can get in, he can still clean teams out like it's 2004 - the RestTalk changes don't mean shit if you just stay in :). There's ways to support him, with Dug and weather for example. I can see this high a ranking being somewhat debatable, but this is how I see it.
Celebi - I was debating putting her a bit lower than this, but I eventually kept her up here. Cele has awesome versatility which means so much in teambuilding. She can play both PDef and SDef setups with Leech and Recover, and go on the offensive with Supercele or use CM BP sets. Swords Dance (either BP or 2 atks) is also a set which gets a lot of unexpected positive results. Cele suffers from Spikes and Sand ofc, but like Cune, she has the raw stats and movepool to stabilise that disadvantage.
Metagross - Meta has gotten a lot stronger in the past year. This WCoP, he's had very high usage and winrate (yeah yeah sample size), but I think there's reason behind that. Band Meta is genuinely scary and can quickly snowball out of control with either a raise or a fat predict. Mixed Meta sets such as Psychic are very much anti-meta right now and can pull teams apart and force shit easily. This guy really buffs offensive playstyles, and prevents slower shit from being totally dominant.
Swampert - Pert has dropped a lot from my past rankings. The first reason for this is that he doesn't match up particularly well vs the very popular slower TSS builds of recent times. The heavy physical Mag-type offenses which he's typically been a cockblock to are slightly less common than before. Specially based Tars are more common than ever and Pert has sorta lost one of his best walling capabilities on that end. Secondly he can work as a momentum loser and is sometimes Spikes bait. Saying that, he can still dominate certain team matchups and force the opponent to play out their skin to even have a chance at beating it. As a footnote, EndPert is still as good as ever and can do real damage to a lot of teams, cant recommend that guy enough.
Blissey - Blissey is a highly meta shaping mon. She prevents Special spam from being dominant, and forces a lot of teambuilding to be done around her and her defensive capabilities. She allows defesinve teams to function nicely and serves as a glue to keep a lot of shit under wraps. We've recently seen fast sets with Fire Blast come around which are nice for donking Skarms. In summary, she's pretty good, yeah.
Salamence - Mence is higher than a lot of you guys might put it. MixMence is a threat like he always has been, as STAB DClaw and type coverage remain a great way to put on offensive pressure. This might be controversial but I also rate physical Mences on Mag setups quite highly right now too - a smartly played DDMence can still clean people out, especially if kept in lastmon mode, and Bandmence can plow ass if you have your predicting shoes on. Still kept down by the same shit that's kept him down from day 1 tho.
Aerodactyl - Aero rolls shit in the lategame and serves as a great finisher. Not at its most powerful he's ever been, as Tar Gar Skarm rock resist cores are so common which provide immunities and resistances to all Aero's shit. Saying that, he still does work and is great late on vs a weakend team due to virtue of him being so damn fast and flinchy.
Snorlax - Lax was lower than this last time, but I felt compelled to put him back up here as he's still a great mon on heavy offenses that can check a lot of special shit nicely. Both EQ and Focus Punch (though not at the same time) are great anti-meta moves, Boom can force trades and get you out of a pinch, and Para Slam is as homosexual as ever.
Dugtrio - Dug works nicely to trap shit to open much needed holes up for a lot of teams. Enables CM shit and revenge kills a lot of stuff. Stalls can abuse Dug too to break shit, just like in SM. Not much to say about this guy - idk maybe I'm getting tired of writing.
Zapdos - I rated Zap really low last time cuz he'd lost his ability to Restalk, previously his flagship set. Turns out this guy can still apply a shitton of pressure with powerful bolts and spread status on the offense, and defensive Zap isn't even that bad with the right team support. Shit like Aroma Bliss enables him to Rest up, and he's found a place on a lot of the defensive sand teams of 2017.
Jirachi - Rachi has seen her newer sets gain popularity, namely Wish Protect Fire Punch Slam/Toxic. This set works pretty good against the current meta, and Wish is a great move full stop. Superachi is decently strong currently as she has such great coverage. We've seen a lot less Wish CM recently and I think that's partially because that set sometimes can lose momentum or just get trapped.
Heracross - I actually fee like Heracross is genuinely better than this, but his low usage in recent times compels me to put him all the way down here. This guy can absolutely tear the shit out of so many defensive teams. Focus Punch is, as I've said before, an anti-meta move, and Meghaorn is stronk when it decides to not miss. Late game sweeper Hera with the right supporting cast can still clean house.

B Rank
Flygon - I really wanted to rank this guy higher than this. Protect Gon is a newish thing that works great, and Gon is great at spreading poison and being a general cockboy to DDTar. He loses out on A-Rank as he allows a free Gar outside of dumb band HP Ghost sets, but on the other hand Pursuit Tar support is great with him. He also has a very awkward matchup against some teams, and finds himself occasionally just being a goober. However when he's good, he's dominant.
Magneton - The enabler for pure physical offense and other teams that otherwise shit the bed vs Skarm. In theory this guy would be higher as he has an entire team style revolving around him, but in practice Mag offense isn't as strong as it could be right now and is the most skill intensive playstyle IMO. Skarm Mag teams are really good tho, so I guess that works in its favour.
Jolteon - Last year I put this guy in A-rank for some unknown reason. That's not to say he isn't good though - shuffling shit round with Roar, drypassing, and cleaning lategame while providing somewhat of a specially defensive midgame role. Overall, I like this guy.
Porygon2 - P2 does the whole Trace Arena Trap thing which gives it a place on teams with multiple duggable mons, and also checks a lot of shit and functions as a decent enough physical wall and status spreader. Tracing Natural Cure is great as ever. He gets dicked on a bit by T, S, and S, but hey, don't we all...
Starmie - Star is the best spinner at actually spinning spikes away. It also can do work late on with great special coverage and a powerful HPump. It's of course weakened by the fact that Bliss cockblocks it and it's not bulky at all (and sets with tankiness blow dicks in the current meta).
Claydol - Clay, the second spin dude. Refresh Clay is new, and I like that set - helps a lot vs toxic Skarm which otherwise comes in on it easily - a Spinner which lets a spiker in free is a bad spinner. Clay is a lot more durable than Star and has solid resistances. On the other hand, it's much more of a momentum loser and has really weak offensive stats to the extent where its STAB EQ can't 2-shot a TTar. Clay fits nicely on slow ass teams which desperately need spike removal. It also partners nicely with trappers - him and Mag work great together as a 2-part total spike removal unit.
Milotic - She doesn't function that well in the meta right now. Refresh is once again a new set which I like, which helps alleviate one of her biggest weaks. However, she still gets beaten down by Spikes, sand, and repeated physical assaults, and is forced to Recover up a lot and lose momentum.
Gyarados - Last time I put Gyara in C and it's obviously not that bad. RestTalk Zap being gone is a boon to it, and Taunt dicks on Skarms. HP Rock is great for Aero donkage - which is nice as otherwise it's one of the few mons ever to be walled by Aero. Its main weakness is a lack of pure raw power behind its moves, even at +1. Vs a weakened team tho, a DD Gyara is a great cleaner. I miss my old favourite, RestTalk Gyara.
Regice - The iceman continues to fire off powerful beams and bolts and HP Fires and blow up on things. Enabler for CM's with Boom, and a decent enough standalone offensive mon. His defensive capabilites are dramatically reduced by T, S, and S, but he's still good to soak a couple hits and be a semi-fat pivot.
Raikou - Kou is not as bad as people might have you believe. He's just a high skillcap mon who requires team support, but when he gets in he can still clean house like it's nobody's business. Modest Kou is great as he can actually kill a Dug from behind a sub. In certain matchups, Kou is also useful as he checks Zap and Gar too.
Cloyster - I'd actually rate Cloy as the second best Spiker right now, and he's not even that good, especially as Pert usage is lower. Cloy still can't spin for shit but is good at getting a few layers up on an aggressive team and exerting the threat of blowing up. When you play a Cloy, try not thinking one-dimensionally about setting up Spikes and sometimes just hit shit with Surf or Ice Beam - with SAtk investment, it actually hurts. Trust bruv, I do SPL and that so I know shit about RSE. :^)
Moltres - Moltres usage rising is new and he has a real niche. Wisp is broken as shit and fire STAB is really powerful. Molt can get in surprisingly easily as an offensive mon and really genuinely threaten a lot of teams. I'm almost tempted to rate it higher writing this, but its usage doesn't justify that.
Venusaur - Sleep is such a strong status post-RestTalk. Venu is great as a bulky mon with good resistances who can get in and fire off some Powders. Leech is also a really good move. That and Toxic immunity makes for a very respectable choice as a pivot mon on quite a few teams. Venu's main weakness is his lack of raw stats.
Forretress - I really wanted to rank Forre even lower than this. Forre isn't durable as a Spiker at all and gets bought down low easily, and requires heavy teambuilding support to spin, and even then that doesn't even work often. IMO, the main thing keeping it out of C-Rank is it's place on ForreSkarm outfits, but even those aren't as good as a year or 2 ago as Mag usage has dropped somewhat. Maybe in the future we'll see a new way to use Forretress to its full potential, but not right now.


C Rank

Didn't bother to rewrite descriptions here.

Machamp - A lot of teams have nothing to properly beat Bulk Up Machamp. ITs a mon that threatens from turn 1 in the lead slot.
Ludicolo - can be a very dangerous rain sweeper or an annoying ass bitch with toxic. Most teams are weak to one of these two sets
Vaporeon - Wish is strong as ever, Brutus used cursepass vap which i thought was very coo. Vap has obvious weaknesses tho.
Charizard - Everyone sleeps on this guy, but subpunch zard is a monster in particular, and sunny zard sets can fuck shit up too.
Kingdra - a more one-dimensional ludicolo with a marginally better typing.
Weezing- checks a lot of physicals in a pinch - has OP burn move and might be stronger now restalk zap is gone and crocune is used less. Can run boom too.
Houndoom - Hits really hard. Will-O is always strong, and so is Pursuit and a stab fire move.
Camerupt - unique STABs and typing which allows it to come into gar nicely, and ability to boom make this a cool momentum mon for ofensive teams
Alakazam - Strong late game cleaner, if u feel like a really fast special mon but not jolt, zam is your next best bet. It also hits really hard. You can even use Trick.
Medicham - Powerful but frail.
Smeargle - strong as a suicide spiker. I'd recommend WoW on him as a 2nd status for surprise and cheese. Also blah blah drumpass
Rhydon - Hits very hard on the right team, with a band or a sub set.
Regirock - checks a lot of shit in a pinch, and can boom on waters or Celebi to facilitate some sweep
Breloom - Spore is very strong, especially with no Zap to take it any more. HP bug lures celebi like a charm. Still has a lot of weak points, above all its duggability
Steelix - useful on some stalls. Its a pert with worse general walling capabilities, but a toxic immune and can tank booms. Also gets boom itself
Donphan - its like a even physically fatter pert, but more one dimensional. Has weaknesses, but can work on some teams. You can spin if you really want with it too
Tauros - the choice fast normal stab user. Intimidate is handy, great if you're a good predictor
Dusclops - Not great but also usable, due to getting OP burn move. Its kind of a spinblocker, and Focus Punch is great for luring ttar. It also once ran restalk too tho :(
Dodrio - Nice lead/BP scouter. Strong on trapping based teams
Blaziken - Banded focus punch is ridiculously strong, best on a P2 + other dug weaks focused team. Good offensive synergy with DDers
Dragonite - don't use it as a bad Mence, runa Subpunch, which some teams are ill prepared for
Slaking - very powerful but unreliable poke
Lunatone - Hypnosis and the ability to Pass CMs while being immune to spikes and sand is a nice niche, along with checking mence in a pinch. Dont use solrock ever tho
 
Oh hey it's been 3000 years since this thread saw any activity but if something's happening I wanna get in on it, gonna start with replying to what UD and Sunny have expertly articulated before throwing in my own two cents bc courtesy and all that.

Time for my once-a-year post in the Viability Rankings thread!

I'm bumping this because I want to propose something potentially controversial. I think Tyranitar and Gengar should be the only S-rank Mons, and Celebi and Suicune should drop to A (somewhere, I don't really care).

To me, Tyranitar almost gets better by the day, simply because of the absurd number of viable movesets it can use. It has the best movepool in the game, and the stats to use literally every single one of those moves (not counting Tackle and shit). It's indescribably good by this virtue alone. Seriously hop on ladder and check out the number of insane Tar movesets you'll see within your first 10 or so high ladder games. All of them are good too! Will not spoil anything in particular, for the sake of their owners who'd probably like to keep them secret, but trust me on this one.

Similarly, Gengar seems to be getting better as well. About a year ago I was really down on that Mon, since Pursuit Tar was being soooooo spammed at the time. It still is, but necessity is the mother of all invention, and thus Gengar started developing ways of beating Tar on its own. There are a number of ways it does this, but I won't list them all. Anyway, WoW is still incredibly hard to switch into, the Speed tier is just as good as it has ever been, that coverage, the way it has *just* enough bulk... It's the whole package. Absurdly good and centralizing Mon. Every single ADV team is weak, perhaps extremely so, to at least one version of Gengar. I'd argue that Tyranitar is the best Mon in ADV, but Gengar is the hardest to switch into.
on the topic of sand hurting the viability of a lot of stuff, in my opinion if there was an A- rank, I wouldn't mind Snorlax being pushed down to it; it's kind of Suicune in that its most dangerous set, requires Magneton, and rapid spin support. Other sets like mixlax have steadily become less and less effective, Curse+Boom isn't as effective at trading with Skarmory as it used to be; my gripe with MixLax especially is that unless you catch Gengar on a switch with Shadow Ball, you're really just gonna get will-o-wisp'ed and basically be carrying dead weight. I also don't like how Zapdos under sand(especially if its not rest Zap), basically hurries MixLax into self-destructing much quicker than it'd like. Mixlax is usually thrown on to more physically oriented teams as a sponge but vs stuff like Zap/+1 Offensive Cune Hydro with sand, it really is just a whole slot dedicated to trading with boom.

I've always thought that Gengar is the best pokemon at abusing spikes, so I'm glad to see that other people think its amazing. Stuff like HP:Grass Gar becoming more popular has helped it counteract the trend of Pursuit Tyranitar being everywhere, while also letting it kill Swampert without having to eat Torrent Hydro Pump from higher ranges. Hypnosis is also amazing at cheesing teams right now, especially if you get the chance to use Hypnosis as Pursuit Tar comes in(even better with Spikes down) there are teams that you might just clean from that point on, which frankly is pretty ridiculous. Add to that the fact bulky gar takes a CB Aerodactyl Rock Slide(quite comfortably actually), and if running 252 HP/112 sp.def(Taunt+WoW with this is brutal) can switch out of a tyranitar's Pursuit in order to trap it with Dugtrio, and that only adds to the package. Gar with spikes down and Hypnosis or Taunt/WoW can also severely pressure Blissey(can just boom on it too I guess), great mon.

Going back to the spike bait thing, imo the only real way to not be spike bait right now, is either Magneton+Claydol; run full out offensive teams(like Hera/CB Gross/Mence/DD Taunt Tar/Endeavor Pert/Aero or CM Spam) or no spike offenses(Zapdos/Offensive Celebi/MixMence/DD Tar/CB Aero/Pert); spamming taunts with Gar/Skarm/Tar/Weez also helps; stuff like the more recent Fire Blast Blissey also obviously helps more defensive teams stop spikes from coming up too easily.
I think these sentiments are pretty accurate honestly. Bear in mind there's a slightly different perspective to the average smogon tour player talking here - because the only major tournaments on smogon to feature adv - spl, classic and wcop - have all been over for a while, and again the nature of those tournaments led to people relying more on playing their opponents or trying to create new techs for surprise value rather than looking for the strategies that will be consistent across literally hundreds of games. Meanwhile on PP (where adv tournaments are year-round and feature a lot of players who are close to the top) and on the ladder (constant action and high ladder is dominated by players like UD, Asta, Dan and other proven competitors) the metagame is...I don't know about evolving, but it is condensing around a handful of strategies and teams based on abusing said strategies. Why? Because the hundreds of games played prove that said teams and strategies are the most consistent in winning games.

Gengar's evolution was only really a matter of time - HP Grass had caught on as a tool to do more damage to Pert before PursuitTar truly proliferated (thanks UD!), and people were experimenting with SDef sets all the way back in April if I recall correctly. So yeah, it was natural that the two techs would combine into one set and though it doesn't beat PursuitTar singlehandedly it's a lot easier to do so with it, especially with the Spikes support that Gar capitalises on. Meanwhile just about everything else also gets hammered big-time - Taunt+WoW which is on the rise screws with Bliss, denying it healing and forcing it to take stupid amounts of damage from Wisp chip as well as sand + spikes, WoW utterly ruins Lax, Meta and Physical Tar while also chipping PursuitTar into Dug range which blows, it can still boom through Bliss, Lax, Regice, Fire Punch provides a way through non-Skarm steels that can otherwise handle boltbeam coverage, Taunt also compromises defensive teams' counterplay in a lot of ways. Gar is great. No other words needed.

Sand's also a crucial part in the metagame in that its denying leftovers and chipping mons without them is a big part of what makes it hard to be a Suicune / Snorlax / even like a Zapdos or Celebi in this day and age. Tyranitar provides sand so it's guaranteed a place at the top - that said despite its issues it is a defining offensive force in the tier because of sheer versatility and the fact that just about every set is a team-breaker in its own right. In terms of sets, as UD mentioned there are a literal fuckton (although out of decency I will only mention the ones that you could find within half an hour or surfing the forums) - the half a dozen dd variants with radically different counters, cb which though forgotten is stupidly dangerous when played correctly, subpunch which invalidates a lot of the tss teams used by forcing them to either trade mons for a chance to rk you or try and guess your coverage moves (which threatens to backfire in their face like if they assume you're crunch+fthrower and then you swat Pert with HP Grass), bkc's 4 atks lefties variant which is also quite brutal assuming you have other methods to exert pressure on grounds and skarm (not that it doesn't on its own or anything, but still), taunt toxic (not as common but I expect to see this set make a giant comeback really soon) which helps counteract skarmblisspert cores by denying skarm the ability to do anything, making it easier to hammer bliss, and crippling pert for aero. Tyranitar also utterly capitalises on spikes as well because of how easily it forces switches and threatens to punish switchins with coverage options and whatnot. Nothing poses as much a threat as Tyranitar does offensively, and despite the rise of Gengar Tar is still, if only marginally, better than it (and thereby its the best mon in the tier).

Every defensive Celebi set has become horrendous Skarmory bait. Like, way worse than Swampert Spikes bait (isn't this the number one complaint of Swampert, lol?). It is still obviously an excellent Mon and people started tailoring its spreads to beat other OP Mons in the tier (shoutout Astamatitos and Fear for the SpDef spread), but man, it brings so many other unintended weaknesses to any given team that you need to support it in order for him to function properly. Isn't that by definition NOT an S-rank Poke? Sure, it's still a real bitch to kill, but it doesn't offer nearly enough offensive and defensive presence simultaneously in my opinion. Offensive sets are still excellent, as are the Baton Pass ones. But those sets have longevity issues and also worry about anything fat, fast, or physical (Aero, Dug, Mence, Flygon, Tar, and Meta all have a way to either force it out or beat it outright). Yes it is amazing at staying alive and supporting shit with Heal Bell, Leech Seed, passing Subs or Boosts etc., but I think it's just way too Spikes weak to be considered for S-rank.
This probably has a point - I mean in this day and age a Celebi without a Magneton in the wings is super-rare, and Celebi can hit Skarm with Leech Seed to open it up for other offensive mons, but it gives up spikes in the process which sucks (Pert is still worse spikes bait, though, lol hydro barely 3hkos if you don't account for protect + 20% miss chance and Celebi doesnt get fucked over by Toxic in the same way Pert does). The unintended weaknesses thing is kinda unfair - skarm is the only real weakness that arises since all the fast physical mons you mentioned get annoyed by leech / sometimes don't pack hp bug (and lets be real without hp bug or crits they shouldn't be able to get through Celebi unless the Celebi player messes up) and Reflect (which exists! although its a bit underused) makes them all cry. I will concede, though, that it can't provide offensive and defensive presence fully at the same time - you have to pick what you want it to do so its v matchup reliant in that way based on the set you're running, and again, Spikes weak. Sigh. UD's got a point. I concede that Celebi probably isn't S anymore.

Suicune has a different set of problems - not that it isn't Skarm bait too because it is (everything is but Magneton). For me, I really have a hard time justifying the (lack of) longevity on his offensive sets. This is a freaking Suicune. It's not supposed to die! But it always seems to bite the bullet before doing enough work in my opinion. And it's so damn slow. Seriously it takes like a million EVs just to reach a respectable Speed tier on the offensive set. The Substitute set is really scary at times, but it also requires almost the perfect matchup for it to work properly. Defensive ones will always be his best set and only legit chance at sweeping, but those have huuuuge problems with Boomers (Meta and Snorlax basically, but even an Explosion Gengar + anything faster with an Electric move to follow up), they aren't fantastic at switching in on stuff early and mid game with Sand and Spikes in play, and you forfeit momentum as soon as you click Rest. I know that a boosting Suicune that just Rests on your Blissey is extremely terrifying. I've lost to more than my fair share of them in my day. But they require the user to play perfectly in order to work properly. Seriously, one misstep and now you're in range of that MixMence's HP Grass. It's just not a Poke with a lot of room for error in my opinion.
imo defensive Suicune ironically can't be used as a bulky water at all,it is the one water that imo at least provides not too much support to the team in terms of switching into like CB Meteor Mash or CB Rock Slides from Gross/Tar; the best teams for defensive Suicune are probably Magneton+Claydol(possibly even wants Dugtrio+Rain Dance) teams, if only because imo even 1 layer of spikes with Sand down, means more likely than not Suicune will just be resting all game; it's like Snorlax in that it is really spikes vulnerable, and hard to get going under sand. There's a reason why most teams still opt for Swampert(one of the best pivots in the game), instead of the more dangerous(on paper) Suicune. Even teams that on paper have no real Rest CM Cune check, can beat you via rest looping you, with stuff like CB Aerodactyl coming in on the rest turn under sand.If you have to talk of the most effective Suicune set, to me its probably still just offensive CM; but that set is prone to getting Toxic traded on it via Swampert/Skarmory/etc. Set with the most potential upside as stated above is defenitely SubCM, that set under sand though probably has only one good chance to sweep per game, although versus teams that have stuff that it abuses like Leech Celebi or IB+Fire Blast+Toxic Blissey it has chances to get very easy setup/sweeps. More traditional offensive Suicune sets, probably want stuff like Boom Regice/Boom Gengar+Dugtrio to create openings for it(basically some kind of special offense? doesn't have to be CM Spam though);
I think I predicted this a long while ago in this thread (will have to check back), but yeah defensive Cune struggles like nothing else in this metagame. Lack of insta recovery outside of Rest absolutely sucks since Rest gives your opponent two turns to capitalise on you not doing anything, or even allows them to fire off attacks, which forces you to keep clicking rest to stay alive (what Sunny meant by 'rest loops' and it sucks because despite the fact pressure's in your favour and burning through your opponent's pp, a single crit or rock slide flinch leaves cune dead in the water, and stretching out the battle only worsens your odds of survival in that sense). I still think Cune is the last S though - because offensive sets, which were in a decline before, have shot back up with a vengeance. Yes people get 'traded Toxic' on which sucks but if you've played smart you should have been able to grab a cm beforehand and smack the offending skarm / pert / whatever for 60%, and the types of teams cune slots into should be able to keep the pressure on from there. It's not a sweeper so much as a hole puncher - think BKC made a post about it in the dpp viability ranking thread but it applies just as much here, and if played properly its absolutely monstrous - to give some perspective, at +3 offensive is doing a minimum of 47% to the standard Blissey with Hydro, and if you have sand down that can be enough to kill it with rolls and whatnot. Try leading it, it's absolutely monstrous to face for any opponent.

Also wanna give a shoutout to subcune which imo is the best set even if sunny and ud downplay it, yes sand and spikes chip sucks and yes it only gets 'one chance at sweeping lol bad set', this restriction actually shouldn't apply if you've added the necessary support which is nothing too extensive or too far out of the ordinary. The security sub gives you when boosting up and blasting - holding off status attempts from bliss, leech from celebi (so you can boost and Ice Beam its face off), random booms which a lot of offensive teams crutch on to not lose to cune, allowing you to take on aero without fear of getting flinched out...its just really nice in general. As mentioned above +3 cune has a 70% chance at 2hkoing bliss with sand down and if you have sub its much easier to get to +3 with it, especially against UDBliss which forgoes stoss for whatever reason. Even if it has stoss you should be able to get +3 and kill bliss - even if cune goes down in the process, the damage is done, and that's omitting the fact that most teams without bliss just get run through or are forced to sac to create opportunities for rking which are hugely choreographed (I mean come on people letting meta die to hydro only to bring in aero and face Cune what else are you trying for) and can be taken advantage of if its still the early-mid game which is where Cune shines imo. Also, despite the fact its an offensive set, it still takes random mashes, mixmence hp grasses, anything from tar with gusto (those attacks leave their mark, true, but Cune still forces them out and sets up with ease). If longevity really bothers you, well, a lot of the good wish users of the tier (Rachi, Mence, Bliss, Jolt) synergise really well with Cune even without Wish. It's not the titan it was but its still a huge threat to a lot of people and a damn good mon and it makes me really annoyed to see how people sleep on it (almost enough to make me prematurely reveal LNXCune...nah, another time, tldr Cune can be a threat even without my whack set)

Since most of this post has just been me restating very obvious points, I want to do something funny. I want to suggest Skarmory for a rank above A but below S(if possible), Skarm has single handedly warped the game, into the Protect+Toxic+Spikes meta we have as of now. There is no distinction between offensive/defensive threats, so if it does become S it'd probably be as a result of how amazing it is defensively. And it is! Skarmory is the best spiker, and a key defensive component as well on many teams; Skarmory between itself, bulky gengar and tyranitar can maintain hazards vs any team, and this is big reason why this is hands down the engine room of any TSS used in ADV atm. Want to mention that bulky mie without Magneton isn't very good at keeping hazards off, and that offensive mie is still the best set. The fact that it can spin on that(one time a game probably) is a bonus. Heck on certain teams(BKC's famous Cele Skarm Mag comes to mind) even WITH a magneton on the other side, you can potentially set up a situation to end up with three layers, which is kind of crazy frankly.
I honestly don't know what to add to this, I mean, Skarm is obviously one of the faces of the metagame because of its solid typing and absurd bulk - to give an example, I can cite all the five million games I've seen where a skarm user decided it was a good idea to toxic a mixtar / mixmence and take fire blast for 70% in the process, then abuse tect and solid switching around to get back to full while said mixmon bled out. It's just insane - I mean it takes a good player to maximise the impact Skarm has but even a total noob can pick it up and get some decent mileage out of it because of how intuitive it is to play - spike, toxic when you feel like, tect if you're worried about getting boomed on / surprised / you just want a little lefties so you can take the next attack more comfortably, whirlwind when you have three layers down, and of course the spikes it lays are really stupidly annoying to deal with and contribute to why everyone thinks Skarm is overpowered (I think it is because though there are things that catch it / punish it I honestly don't want to have to run SD Hera and Magneton on every team to avoid losing to it and even if you run those two skarm still laid down two layers). Spinners exist, yes, but Claydol and Starmie get toxiced and beaten down in the long run, also they both require a lot of support to function on a team because of their inherent liabilities. Forretress is toxic immune but gets spinblocked by the all-powerful Gengar and requires even more support to work properly, and again, as with the hera + mag example, its not worth running them on every team to avoid being skarm weak and if it were worth then it'd be a sign of how obnoxiously monstrous skarm is (like I'm pretty sure if skarm was banned or just ceased to exist all of mag, starmie and claydol would vanish with it).

The fact that Toxapex is S rank in SM for 'defensive qualities alone' also is a bit of a precedent for why I argue Skarm for S because imo Skarm in ADV is a much better mon than Pex in SM, it centralises the metagame around Spikes and defensive teams like nothing else while simultaneously fitting onto any team archetype because of the value of spikes and how it manages to exert a stupidly huge amount of pressure on just about any team. Even Mag's not guaranteed to beat it because Sub HP Ground exists (while its a terrible af set that makes skarm significantly worse vs any team without a Magneton, the fact that it utterly screws over Mag teams makes it usable. Sigh) and again if its laid down layers then its done its job. Nothing is as obnoxiously effective game in, game out as skarmory, and avoiding being Skarmory weak can only be done by opening yourself up to the things that abuse the spikes it lays. S for sure.

Jirachi could also be a bit higher now, superachi is back with a bang(no it doesn't need to be on a CM Spam); while sets like BSlam+Fire Punch Sp.Def(thanks Astamatitos , this provides amazing support with out being too big of Spike bait vs Skarmory, and completely stops forry from using spikes vs you) , or the fear Toxic+Tect phys def(as featured in steelwork by Foggi ,this set literally sits on Swampert, and softens up bulky waters for a late game clean via either of Aerodactyl/Tyranitar). Even the traditional Wish/CM Psychic set is amazing vs bulkier traditional forry TSS' when paired with Dugtrio.

Might not even need that though, Toxic allows it to kiil the best counter on that style of team(traditionally some pursuit tar variant); older versions of this style of team used TWave Blissey, which actually was extremely helpful by allowing you to just trade Seismic Tosses, and then bring Swampert in on the Wish turn to pressure Jirachi, but with Toxic,Seismic Toss,Ice Beam being the most common set on Blissey(and sometimes CM) this set can definitely shine again. Heck even Psychic/Wish/HP:Grass/CM sounds very good vs that sort of team; stuff like Jirachi+P2+heracross, is also something that could be used more if only to hedge vs dugtrio TSS' which is coming back again.
JIRACHI MY BOY! Anyways yeah this has been a long time coming as well, in the age of Gengar it's only natural that Jirachi, one of its few 'checks' would rise, aside from that its extremely versatile a la Tyranitar except it has both offensive and defensive variants - aside from the long list of sets sunny mentioned, there's also the wish+3 attacks set that was on a Fear time a while ago, and mixed + cb which are also very underrated in this meta but shred with the right support. Jirachi fills a lot of defensive cogs for a team - it borderline checks electrics (everything short of modest zap and if it switches in on a non tbolt move and has wish it usually wins), checks Gengar solidly, sponges Aero rock slides, can sorta check Heracross via speed and stab psychic, checks cmspam by boosting up alongside, wishtect sets can sit on just about everything and at the same time it's super threatening offensively because of coverage and whatnot - also it provides a nice skarm countermeasure because wish negates spikes damage and you force skarm out, its not perfect but it is something and its the icing on the cake that such a good mon gets that good matchup too. It also has very few consistent answers that can deal with everything it can do, basically only like...jolly cb flygon is guaranteed to beat it and that only switches in on superachi's psychic once while also being invalidated by Toxic. Offensive versatility plus the things it covers defensively...yeah, there's really nothing like Jirachi in this metagame (maybe Metagross which shares typing and has similarish defensive / offensive utility and its also a top dog of the metagame, but the two function totally differently in practice). Send it the hell up.

Edit: I know most people are like 'lol stats' but I do want to point to the usage stats being compiled for Pokemon Perfect's ADV World Championship, where Jirachi has 58 uses out of 111 games (meaning its on more than 1/4 of teams), and it has a winrate of 69%. 69%, which is by far the highest winrate for any mon with more than 10 uses. If that doesn't mean something than I don't know what does. Link -
http://www.pokemonperfect.com/forum...v-1u-l-world-championship-1-usage-stats.4677/

I think Pert's a tad low as well; it might be spike bait, but it is by far the best pivot in the game(I think 158 speed or so might be good on Swampert right now, get the jump on MixGross[great if you're running a forry team], be faster than all but UD 's Blissey set, and even be faster than slower MixTar's); I want to say that Endeavor Swampert is a beast as well(lot frailer then though...);

I want to finish off this wall of text with a nomination of my own; I think Moltres should be at least B or low A(not sure if this is a thing); it's a solid filler on forry teams, prevents spikes by virtue of its STAB and in general with a sub+wow set is very troublesome for anything but blissey to really deal with comfortably. Being faster than Heracross is great too, too many defensive teams crumble the moment they are facing down a +2 Heracross(I guess a lot of these sort of teams carry dug for stuff like this).

EDIT: if Venusaur hasn't been added yet, that's definitely a B mon at least.
Sadly in the age of spikes and sdef gar I've started to lose faith in Pert because Skarm and Gar are everywhere and threaten to punish it while Tar have gotten a ton smarter about handling it. Also Toxic Bliss screws with Pert like you would not believe, in fact the fact that everything and its mother is carrying Toxic just really blows for Pert because its longevity goes down the drain. It beats individual mons but rarely do I see it stop a whole team (keep in mind that if your opponent's bringing ultra passive skarmbliss stall like sunny's team (skarm bliss milo clay dug gar) then pert's going to do absolutely nothing vs it) and its very lurable especially if you pick off its support cogs (which really boils down to just trapping skarm). It's still absolutely monstrous as a mon but the meta is not very conducive to it.

Moltres is actually really nice in this metagame, I concur. It takes advantage of Spikes really well while screwing over offense with wisp and whatnot (makes great support for forry teams because sometimes they crutch a little much on pert to beat physical offense on its own), and does a lot of damage with fire blast (even bliss can't sit in on it forever because it gets wisped and worn down, also sub, try Toxic on Molt too because that wreaks havoc on a lot of things) It has issues with Electrics and Cune and sometimes its a little hard to find it a spot to cut loose ingame but its still really sick. Fires as a whole are really slept on...yeah send this up to B. Venu's also B worthy, think other people have summed up its pros and cons already so I won't bother. Also I think all of Regirock / Umbreon / Medicham / Houndoom / Weezing and a few other things should be considered for B (considered because I'm not quite sure and want to hear other people's thoughts, but imo they all have solid niches and have prospered in the current metagame).

Also to respond to Triangles I have the Ninjax ADV rankings 2k17, enjoy: (this includes subranks like A+, A- etc because despite what people say about adv not having enough mons I still believe there are clear demarcation lines between the top mons of A and the mid-bottom ones in terms of overall power and whatnot to justify it, bop. If enough people nag me I might add reasoning for these because I'm tired after writing everything above.)

S Rank: Tyranitar, Gengar
S- Rank: Skarmory, Jirachi, Swampert
A+ Rank: Suicune, Metagross, Celebi, Zapdos, Salamence, Blissey
A Rank: Snorlax, Aerodactyl, Dugtrio, Flygon, Heracross
A- Rank: Magneton, Jolteon, Starmie, Claydol
B+ Rank: Milotic, Porygon2, Gyarados, Venusaur, Forretress, Moltres
B Rank: Raikou, Vaporeon, Regice, Cloyster
B- Rank: Regirock, Umbreon, Medicham, Houndoom, Weezing, Alakazam, Camerupt
 
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M Dragon

The north wind
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I paste what I posted in another place about Skarmory and why it should not be S tier:

About Skarmory being in S: Nope, Skarmory is not even close to TTar, GGar, Suicune or Celebi.
In fact I would say that both Metagross and Salamence are also better mons than Skarm.

Skarmory is really good at doing its job: setting up spikes, toxicing stuff and phazing (adding spikes damage). Its amazing typing + great physical bulk + decent special bulk means that fitting it into a team is very easy, it is for sure one of the best mons in ADV.
However:
  • Skarmory is a 0 offensively. It is purely a defensive and support pokemon that will usually rely on Toxic and Spikes as its offensive weapons
  • The existance of Magneton. Magneton will trap and kill Skarm unless the Skarm user can predict it and trap the Magneton with Dugtrio.
  • Spinners such as Forretress (especially with a Purs TTar to trap GGar), Claydol (Refresh or Rest means Skarm's Toxic is useless) or Starmie are really annoying for Skarm since it cant really touch them and will easily spin back,
  • Most mons will have something to hit Skarm hard if they need to: Mence can FBlast it, Metagross with cb boom to get the kill or with hp fire, celebi with hp fire 2hkoes after a cm, GGar is immune to Toxic and will destroy it, TTar has access to both FBlast and Taunt, it cannot really stop Rock Slide spam from heavy hitters such as CB TTar or CB Aero, it cannot stop Heracross without an offensive move and Heracross can destroy it with a +2 FPunch in the turn it tries to BB, it can phaze bulky set uppers but Skarm will not beat them if last mon, etc.

All the 4 mons of the top 4 (TTar, GGar, Suicune and Celebi) are amazing both offensively and defensively, as well as really easy to fit in any team (offensive or defensive), are very unpredictable and can give a lot of support to the team.

Of those criterias: Skarm is amazing defensively but nearly useless offensively, it is very easy to fit in defensive and balanced teams but not really in offensive teams because it has a very concrete role, it is predictable because it only has 1 set (although it is an amazing set), and can give a lot of support to the team.

Because of that reason, Skarm should be ranked A+ instead of S. In fact, I would say that Mence and Metagross are overall better mons: both amazing offensive and defensively, and together with ttar the most dangerous physical based mons in the game.
S: Tyranitar, Gengar, Suicune, Celebi
A+: Salamence, Metagross, Skarmory, Swampert
A: Zapdos, Blissey, Dugtrio, Snorlax, Aerodactyl, Jirachi
A-: Starmie, Heracross, Flygon, Magneton, Milotic
B+: Forretress, Jolteon, Claydol, Gyarados, Regice, P2
B: Moltres, Venusaur, Charizard, Raikou, Cloyster
 
Ok this post ended up not being very organized and I can't be bothered to make it more succinct so here's a somewhat random assortment of my thoughts on things being said and how the list should be updated to more accurately reflect the current metagame.

I think a serious rearranging of this list is definitely in order. As has been mentioned a number of times already Gar and Tyranitar stick out above the rest of the tier by a pretty large margin to the point where I think it's safe to say they're the only true S ranks. The difference between Gar/Tar and Cune/Celebi is much greater than the difference between Cune/Celebi and the A ranks. I'd even argue that some of those A ranks are better currently than those two.

Looking at the A ranks, Skarmory is a big standout because it is THE spiker in a tier where spikes are incredibly effective. Tack on to that the fact that it has a ridiculous defensive typing and stats in just the right places to make it work and you have one of the most annoying pokemon to face in the whole tier. The main thing that separates it from the S ranks is the existence of magneton which makes it difficult to rely on skarm defensively. It's also not remotely as versatile but when your main set is as effective as it is, this can be overlooked.

The next poke that stands out to me personally is Jirachi. I remember a while back I had a discussion with someone about this poke where they were trying to convince me it was S rank. I wasn't on board at the time but even though I think there's a clear distinction between it and Gar/Tar, I actually think this is a top 5 poke in the tier. The wishtect sets that are so popular right now are absolutely incredible. It's able to pivot against a very unique variety of pokemon. Not many things take on both zapdos and aerodactyl the way spdef rachi does. Furthermore with wish, protect, that amazing typing and bulk it's really difficult to actually kill this thing and due to the status it spreads it makes most of the offensive pokemon in the tier pretty uncomfortable switching in to it. These traits combine to make it by far the best defensive wish passer in the tier. Unlike blissey which between spikes and sand often ends up wasting more time keeping itself alive instead of passing wishes to it's team mates, jirachi's sand immunity allows it to consistently stay at higher health and use those wishes on its team mates. Furthermore since wishtect rachi switch ins are generally more passive mons, it has a much wider variety of targets that can safely switch in to receive wishes from it. Outside of wishtect sets though it can run a variety of mixed attacking sets with moves like hp grass, dynamic punch, fire punch etc to take advantage of a number of common tss varieties, and it's CM sets are dangerous as ever. SubCM rachi is a particularly underrated set atm. It can be a dangerous sweeper or a defensive powerhouse and it's stats, typing and movepool allow it to excel in all of these roles.

After these two is where I believe cune slots in, I've always found cune to be a bit hit or miss in all honesty. When it hits it fucking hits. All of its sets are incredibly dangerous. Rest cune can turn completely lost games around and just win on it's own with very little support in a way not many other pokes can and the offensive sets are amazing at blowing holes that the rest of its team can take advantage of. The problem is there are a lot of times where it ends up being kinda dead weight. Non sub offensive cune just hits a wall against blissey and subcune in sand can have trouble there as well and defensive cune often has a couple hurdles to cross before it can really get going without the longevity to really see it out. One of the top mons in the tier for sure but I don't personally rate it as highly as others do.

Celebi in my opinion fits somewhere in between mence, gross and pert. UD described pretty well exactly how I feel about celebi's flaws so I'm just gonna leave it at that.

Beyond that, there are some other things that I think should be shifted around on this list. Blissey is currently a bit underrated here. I think it's better than heracross and dugtrio. It's always had its flaws but it does what it does better than anything else. It can also be pretty tough to switch in to with fireblast/toxic sets scaring things like metagross, skarmory and tyranitar. Snorlax I think is a bit overrated here as well. It's not as durable as you want it to be and often finds itself walled and just clicking boom to make itself useful. I also want to echo some of the sentiments about moltres. One of its biggest advantages is how hard it punishes opposing spikers. Running magneton or rapid spinners to deal with spikes is kind of annoying so a lot of the time it's nice to just have a team where you can try to mitigate spikes damage as much as possible and punish your opponent whenever they set them up, and moltres is one of the best pokemon to do this with. So many tss teams have to take a pause every time moltres makes its way in and a skarm (or even better forre) trying to spike up gives it plenty of opportunities.
 
I love this thread. Enjoying the posts.
I got some thoughts. Might have a bit of old school bias but here goes...

Tyranitar is best mon in ADV because of its beast stats, decent resists that it affords, its ability (centralizing oh my!!!), and because it has amazing potential as a (physical) attacker. NEWS FLASH - Tyranitar only has 95 base Sp. Attack, and Crunch is only 80 base power. People need to come to grips that physical attacking is going to be a better key to victory usually than special. That's just how it is in Gen3 especially.

Yep, Celebi and Suicune both aren't as good as this list would indicate. Not even on S level like a Tar.

Objectively the following get donked for the lack of STAB on arguably their most usable sets:
-Gengar
-Jirachi (as some think Psychic-less sets are good, lol?)

Just something to keep in mind, objectively speaking. Also, Gengar can't do it all. The more defensive sets hit like a wet noodle, not even breaking Endeavor Swamp sub with Ice Punch, for instance. Gengar is S only cuz of stuff like Hypnosis and Explosion being cool on it, in my eyes. Even though it's tough to switch into, it's rather shit objectively, and I just don't see it as a real staple or foundation to a team. Call me crazy.

Zapdos is still God, "very unique" (redundant) typing makes it great defensively, it's a good offensive check to scary stuff, great movepool (agility, bpass), decently fast, and spammable STAB hits real hard easy 2hkoes on shit. Everyone that is still butthurt about SleepTalk nerfs need to crawl up in a ball and die and realize Sleep Talk is not much of a skill based strategy anyway. Always thought Zapdos was a top 3 candidate, it will slice and dice a team up for real. I was doing Rest + Light Screen + Toxic a decade ago w/ Zap if y'all wanted to start going that route anyway...

Blissey > Snorlax.

Swampert is ultra cool cuz of Endeavor. So slick with the salac + torrent. Needs more love, and literally is the only thing that could really launch it into Top 3-5 in viability anymore, besides the Rock resist and sand immunity (otherwise it's too easily statused or lured and fucked.)

Salac berry sets give Heracross some cool merit I suppose.

With Skarm, it's definitely top 5, but Protect + Toxic meta is not gonna last forever...something new will happen...uggh it only necessitates having Gengar if you have attackless Skarmory,..unless you like giving Medicham/Heracross free reign to run amuck...this meta is so dry...Drill Peck or HP Fly days are going to be back - they are nice options to get some damage when you need it, and even sustained damage on non-sand immune junk with Sand Stream going too. (It goes without saying that Skarm in sand is what makes it so good.)

As for Moltres - players are all thinking now, having seen it with Gengar, that will-o-wisp is some "new meta" but it's just a fad you guys! I mean - think about it - when we see Dusclops and Weezing, which were the only will-o-wisp users back in the day, we don't panic do we? We adapted and that mitigated them as marginal, and even to this day, sub-optimal mons and it's whatever.

Have you considered that Charizard is more of a threat...which should make it more viable, honestly?

The higher special attack (base 125 vs 109) is actually not causing much difference, Anyone? An example I cannot think of...Sure more damage with Fire Blast is good in general but either way they roast what they need to roast.
I advocate that the higher speed , Blaze boost possibility, and just threat of movepool choices on Charizard make it one mean mofo and generally more viable. Moltres does get a nod for better match-up against physical offense if they can't get around Will-o-wisp, yea Eden's Embrace! But Charizard ain't useless due to the reasons I just listed.

"Food for thought" if you want my take at the high level look on this game, xoxo
 
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Cune/Celebi should definitely go down;

What's wrong with the defensive sets? They're actually pretty hard to deal with for some teams. Outside of those sets, CM+3 attacks Jirachi smokes a bunch of teams too

I agree with Endeavor pert needing to be used more; it's a good set, but that means you don't have regular Swampert; forces you to do other stuff in the builder to account for DD Tar/Aero,etc. None of the other options for rock resist/bulky water do the job as well as Swampert anyway, in my opinion.

The more defensive gengar sets can hit like a wet noodle at times, but the only time that kind of set is really "sweeping"(if it can be said to do that) is probably in the end game; It kind of is a foundation, for every single spike stack if only because there is no other viable ghost(Dusclops doesn't count...). Even for certain special offenses the team doing what it is meant to do, is contingent on either of Gengar/Regice getting "good" explosions on to stuff like Blissey/Lax.

Salac Heracross is a bit unreliable as a sweeper, what with relying on Megahorn to clean, and getting chipped by sandstorm. I still prefer regular SD Focus Punch sets, if only because they do a lot of work early game and usually remove Skarmory/Gengar at the start of a game. Gengar isn't really stopping you anyway, unless its Fire Punch, or Hypnosis(or the rarely seen Destiny Bond I guess).

Zapdos is amazing; Light Screen sets are rightfully seeing a comeback, it never really dies.

DPeck or HP:Flying Skarmory might come back, but Toxic and Protect is the most popular set for a reason; a lot of teams just can't handle proper status spread.

I guess Charizard isn't bad(it's actually really underrated), but you're underselling the value of Will-o-Wisp; just Will-o-Wisp being in Moltres' list of options, means that it has a solid match up versus physical offenses, without too much trouble. While we are talking about Charizard, I think Substitute/Toxic/Focus Punch/Overheat is actually a cool set; credit goes to Cowboy Dan for this one.

EDIT: Oxypad tagging you because this thread deserves more activity
 
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