Is there any merit for putting Venusaur in D-rank?
It's prolly largely outclassed by celebi, but it's argubly a better swords-dancer thanks to EQ and STAB Sludge bomb, and it has some nifty moves like razor leaf and sleep powder that celebi would kill to have. Poision typing also allows to eat up the HP-bug that celebi hates, but a neutrality evens that out IMO.
EDIT: And Id say Hera is pretty darn Meta-defining, I mean, WTF switches in on him, not to mention he wrecks stuff pretty well if duggy isnt around.
I actually do think venusaur should be added to the list since its not completely outclassed by celebi. Unlike celebi, it has access to sleep powder and stun spore which can screw up some switch ins. Its typing goes against common answers to grass types since hp bug does not hit it that hard. The only other viable pokemon that does this that comes to mind is eggy which has the same typing as celebi while being very slow. eggy is almost guaranteed to get hit before letting out a sleep powder. At least venusaur has some speed.
Venusaur does very well in niche stall teams so I second this.
Also I think cloyster should be pushed up higher in the b-rank, because of how well it stacks up against a lot of teams right now who rely on magneton as their "hazard control." Cloyster has all of the same advantages it always had, with reasonable special attack, a reasonable explosion that is hard to switch into and is very good at catching celebi, and very solid physical bulk that lets it take hits. I would say that middle of the b-rank is a more solid fit for cloyster right now, I'd argue above claydol, but settle for above gyarados.
Oh and also, BKC's post reminded me, I think claydol should move down to the bottom of the B rank, because frankly if it's not on full stall it's not a good mon. I think that it deserves to stay in B because of the core it makes with skarm (resisting every physical type and spiking and spinning) but certainly not higher than regice, gyarados or cloyster, and probably not higher than vaporeon either. Its complete lack of offensive pressure makes it a liability in a lot of matches where its teammates (read blissey, for when the suicune sets up in your face) can't patch up all the free turns it gives, and its lack of recovery limits its walling capabilities (which aren't helped by everything carrying HP bug right now) so that it's forced to just be a spinner, one that can't spin against the tier's dedicated spinblocker.
Hi guys, I've been reading this thread and some random comments and I think that the viability list should mention some forgotten mons. For example, I miss something about Kingdra, and even Ludicolo and Lanturn. Yeah, Kingdra needs some support (especially good paired with Dugtrio, who can trap Tyranitar and Blissey, the two main reasons why Kingdra isn't seen much more) but still is a force to be recognized, Kingdra fits perfectly between C or D rank, at least compared with the other mons.
Ludicolo and Lanturn are a little bit inferior to kingdra but have their niches. Ludicolo can be a really nice option against bulky waters/ground, and has leech seeds to support the team, while Lanturn's ability to resist boltbeam and spread/absorb status can be really helpfull. Both of them have a decent bulk. What do you think about them?
You're absolutly right, especially about Kingdra. It's a pretty great finisher, especially against physical offense. I added it in C-Rank, below Slaking.
I faced some Ludicolo and it sure has a niche as Water/Gengar check with some sort of pseudo-direct recovery and general annoyance. Not too sold on Lanturn tho, I have only seen it once, and it was years ago. I added both of them in D-Rank for now.
Feel free to discuss where I placed them or anything else about the tier or the rankings
I personally think ludicolo could be a bit higher on the list (maybe above donphan and zam) it can perform the offensive rain dance role just like kingdra, it's stats are a bit lower but it makes up for that with its nifty water grass typing and access to leech seed. Leech seed is pretty great since it prevents it from being dead weight against blissey, and waters such as milotic and suicune. It also has a wider range of sets. It can be pretty annoying with subseed, or take a more defensive approach. Its typing provides it with some nice resistances, and gives it some fairly common switch ins such as swampert.
Thanks McMeghan for considering my opinion about these mons.
By the way, I'm agree with Cowboy Dan, and I'd also add that Ludicolo can stop most of physical Metagross (nowadays nobody runs sludge bomb). In the worst scenario Metagross is forced to explode on Ludicolo. About Lanturn, I remember reading something about it on this forum, if I find it I'll edit this post.
EDIT: Finally I got it, I've found the thread that talks about Lanturn. Just to quote some opinions. Here you can see the whole thread.
The OP already covered this, but Lanturn is a totally underrated Pokemon. Good special bulk, BoltBeam resist (fuck Magneton), Volt Absorb, incredible synergy with things such as Cloyster, Gyarados, Vaporeon, Aerodactyl, Skarmory. It struggles against physical threats (though it can switch in on Banded HP Flyings), is walled by Celebi, and is easily revenged by Dugtrio, and has only Rest for recovery, which really lets it down. But aside from those minutiae, Lanturn is far from outclassed in OU, and can wall the vast majority of Waters in the tier (exceptions being Gyarados and Swampert, who Lanturn can still piss off with a well timed Toxic). While it can't switch into Gyara, it certainly stops it from switching in, and if you can predict well, CB Mence and Aero shouldn't cause too much problems. Really good at luring them in too, so you can catch them with a Thunder Wave/bolt. Often I've found that, Celebi withstanding, the opponent simply doesn't have a safe switch in to Lanturn.
Lanturn is terrible. Its fine against bulky waters but celebi is just much better in everyway. Celebi can take hp bug and beat dugtrio with hp grass. Lanturn just dies to he mole. Lanturn's stats are mediocre too.
Posting here to talk about Kingdra. Yes Kingdra, I see people don't take it quite seriously enough but it does have the potential to turn games versus offense into cake walks given one free turn of setup. Heck it even puts Balance with Lax>Blissey under severe pressure because each one of those Hydro Pump's does around 45% to Snorlax either breaking it or paving the way for another sweeper. Kingdra does of course have problems with bulkier special walls which is why I propose a move only upto to B or B-,because I believe that it has a notable niche in totally steamrolling offense or balance that tries to use Lax as the sole special check.
Edit: Kingdra's bulk is also pretty important yeah. It dismantles offense but at the same time doesn't roll over and die to just any attack. These replays are of me using Smurf's team Ozymandias in an ADV Tour vs Rewer btw and I feel showcase exactly how Kingdra can pressure teams who really on Snorlax as a blanket special check by forcing it into a rest loop.
I sort of wanted to do the above; Smurf.'s team really shows how effective Kingdra is w/ support. Although it does require significant support it's an incredible threat with rain up and has the BULK (this is really important) to survive stuff like MixMence's Dragon Claw and setup RD for the win late-game. I feel like the bottom of B rank would be a better rank.
edit: also agreeing w/ Starmie tbh, I feel like Rapid Spin is v important with Spikes and a lot of the time Mag gives away at least 2 layers anyway so a more reliable answer is really appreciated. Offensive Starmie is an awesome set and is able to outspeed a very relevant threat in GENGAR while also outspeeding the standard +1 ddtar and demolishing it with a hydro.
Speaking of offensive water types, it might be time to start talking about starmie again, Mcmeghan's team has caused a resurgence in usage of offensive starmie, and it's a pretty damn good set. It's combination of speed, power and coverage allows it to cut it's way through most teams lacking in a dedicated special wall, and with the more offensive trend in the meta these days this is becoming more and more common. I think it's definitely worthy of discussion whether or not it can move up to A rank.
Seconding the above Starmie is also incredibly good,2HKO'ing most things not named Blissey or Regice with minimal previous damage. The thing that really makes Starmie tick though is the fact that Blissey isn't even that common nowadays, people opt to play around Starmie with resistances rather than with dedicated special walls,which has led to it resurgance. I feel that Querencia is a good example of an offensive Starmie team to be honest, with it ticking most of the boxes required in that it has a secondary special sweeper in Gengar, to blow up on even dedicated special walls clearing the game up for a late game Starmie cleanup.
I agree, Kingdra is awesome. I think Surf might be the best move in the last slot though, I've seen too many games lost to Hydro misses and it's not like its other options get used a hell of a lot. Plus it would be really lame to run out of PP because you Hydroed into Zapd or Cune one too many times. Toxic is alright and all but you should probably be dealing with Milo/Vap some other way. An underrated aspect of Kingdra is taking away sand after you've killed the Tyranitar which is really helpful for some guys, for example Porygon2 can afford to take a flinch or two from Aero with its Leftovers not being canceled out.
Offensive Starmie is also strong but I prefer Psychic over Recover. While Recover is definitely good I wasn't using it a ton and it felt like a wast of a move more often than not, Star is pretty frail uninvested so I found that things could just stay in and pound away at it. The OHKO on Gengar is so crucial, and it's saved me against a few Heracross that would've otherwise swept me. Plus it's just nice to have a second, more reliable STAB attack; if sand's up when you hit that Snorlax switch with it and drop its SpDef, it's in real trouble. I don't think I'd spin with it though... most of the teams you're gonna have it on aren't in great need of it, you'll generally want the recovery to heal against like Milo and Vap in longer games or the extra coverage. Not to say it's not an option because having Spin is never bad unless your team more or less doesn't care about Spikes, it boils down to your team's needs, but I would usually consider those two before it.
To be honest offensive Starmie has no business spinning,because it'd rather be softening up its checks for the late. 4 attacks though is massive CB Dugtrio(if Jolly) bait once its around the 75% mark, so thats obviously something to keep in mind.
I do think recover is really useful on starmie. It's not going to be taking a whole lot of attacks but it's nice to have just to recover off damage from toxic, spikes and the occasional resisted attacks. seeing as starmie really appreciates sand support to help it take on lax, it's not a bad idea to have a way to recover health from general chip damage. Also i feel like starmie's access to recover and natural cure is one of its advantages over other special late game cleaners. It can afford to come in mid game without fear of being crippled, and therefore has more defensive utility than something like kingdra. That being said i don't think recover is mandatory, and psychic is definitely a pretty useful option.
Ludicolo needs more love, it wrecks havoc with rain dish + leech seed + toxic, which interestingly allows it to outstall Blissey 1v1! Floppy can confirm. It's also an awesome check to Metagross and Gengar, and just switches in with impunity vs Swampert. Its ability to set up rain helps shit like porygon2 and heracross depending on your build. Awesome niche mon! B Rank
No need for me to talk about Kingdra, that shit is a monster late game. A Rank
Not a comment on the viability of anything but I've always found Rapid Spin to be super useful especially when Spikes are really annoying against my team (might just be my inability to play around it). Starmie is portent offensively but I think spinning is a good draw to it tbh.
Imo Starmie should be A rank for the offensive set alone. That thing is lethal, hits a high speed, high power STAB plus coverage to hit almost everything SE, while Recover+Natural Cure keeps you from getting worn down like a lot of other sweepers around. Can act as an emergency RKer against stuff like Hera, Gar, maybe weakened CMers and ofc DDTar which is cool as well. It's not perfect (Bliss stops it cold, gets RKed by Jolt and Aero plus trapped by Dug if low enough), but still.
Last move Recover is my Favorite to keep it alive although that does kinda commit you to the full sweeper route. Psychic gives it some additional value as an RKer which is nice but imo sand+spikes+switching in will wear you down fast then which is bad. It kinda trades longevity for immediate utility which is nice sometimes and sucks others. Neither one is mandatory, run what you think your team needs. Rapid Spin is an option, I guess, as Mag is a terribad way of stopping Spikes (you will be playing with at least 2 layers assuming optimal play by your opponent), but again it takes away a ton from overall sweeping effectiveness which sucks. Talking about that Mag could go up I suppose as though it doesn't really stop Spikes it has been shown to have a bunch of other utility beyond trapping Skarm (like checking Gar, Aero, spreading Toxic, etc.). Also Kingdra for high B and Ludicolo for low B at least.
Ludicolo is also a solid mon. It offers role compression in that it checks multiple highly viable threats like Metagross/Suicune it even checks Kingdra :s. It really likes Spikes from what I've seen because its Leech Seed forces switches like crazy. It's pretty much a decent all round mon, checks waters and offers insurance against a few physical attackers. I think ~B-ish is ok for it.
I don't know if i'd put ludi as high as B rank, the offensive sets can be good, but the defensive sets, while annoying are usually performed better by celebi, unless you really need rain. Ludi's lack of physical defense, natural cure, and reliable recovery really put it a step behind celebi. I'd definitely move it up to C but B seems like a bit of a stretch, same deal with kingdra in A. It seems just a bit too one dimensional to be up there. It's good at what it does, but so are a lot of the B rank pokes and i think it fits right in with them.
To be honest I'd use Ludicolo only in a defensive role. If I want to use an offensive water type that can wreck offense I'd much rather use Kingdra instead of Ludicolo. Not to say of course that Ludicolo is strictly outlassed by Kingdra, both have almost the same special attack and so the main difference would probably be the resistances that they bring to the team. Kingdra is definately a B mon because it stuggles against bulkier teams,like I said not too sure about Ludicolo because I haven't used it too much. Maybe B- is right for it?