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Gen 3 Advanced Tiers Revisited revisited

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by chaos, Jul 23, 2006.

  1. chaos

    chaos
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    Ok, lets get this clear from the start. Don't go offtopic in this topic, I don't want your argument about ______________ because the last topic just went completely OT and out of control. I really don't think people understand what the tiers are especially since the last topic I posted was going every which way in confusion and there was even a post by "Snapple" about how there isn't any confusion about the tiers.

    What the tiers are and how they are calculated

    The tiers represent how much a Pokemon is used in the base metagame. The base metagame is the metagame with all the Pokemon currently in play. From the base metagame, we split it into OU/Standard and Uber, a faux tier used to ban Pokemon that unbalance the metagame in question. From now on we will use the term "ban tier" to describe these faux tiers.

    We currently have:

    Uber [faux tier, also used as a generic term to reference a metagame with all pokemon included]
    OU

    From here, we have too many Pokemon lumped in OU and only the best of the best seem to get use. We can split OU into UU, and add a ban tier of "BL" to UU to balance out the Pokemon.

    We currently have:

    Uber [faux tier, also used as a generic term to reference a metagame with all pokemon included]
    OU
    BL [faux tier]
    UU

    Now, only in Advance do we have enough Pokemon to split this further into NU. Because there is not a noticable amount of Pokemon being split, we do not have enough Pokemon to effectively create a faux tier.

    We finally have:

    Uber [faux tier, also used as a generic term to reference a metagame with all pokemon included]
    OU
    BL [faux tier]
    UU
    NU

    Now listen up. The tiers don't represent just power, so stop trying to put Venusaur in OU. It isn't OU, nobody uses it in tournaments. Because it is not OU, it is automatically UU. Since it is considered too good for UU, we bump it up to the ban tier of BL.

    Since I have made it clear that the tiers represent usage, lets go back to power. People want to know which Pokemon are good. Now lets think about this: "since we are basing standards on which Pokemon are used in a competitive enviroment (namely, what you would use in a tournament), would someone over use a bad Pokemon?" No. People want to win, and since people like to use the best Pokemon, we have a correlation between usage and power. The problem comes around when people group Pokemon obviously meant for the BL tier in the OU tier and it becomes a meaningless list of what people think is strong. When it's subjective like that, arguments occur and nobody is happy and it can't really be consistent.

    I tried to explain this in a way that everyone can understand. Stop trying to rename the tiers, and stop going offtopic about why you think Venusaur should be OU because it isn't OU. How should I rearrange this list?
    Ubers
    Standards
    Borderline

    Note: Because Smogon UU Rules do not allow Borderlines in the Underused metagame (unlike many other websites), this category is used to differentiate the Standard Pokémon that are not as commonly used, but can play well or decently in the Standard metagame or are too powerful for Underused.Underused
    Neverused
  2. Brood_Star

    Brood_Star

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    Predicting a bunch of debates, but.

    Cloyster ---> OU (I see a few players using it nowadays)

    Blaziken ---> BL
    Breloom ---> BL (No one uses it anymore)
    Charizard ---> BL
    Exeggutor ---> BL
    Gardevoir ---> BL (pathetic attempt of an alakazam)
    Ludicolo ---> BL (Typing is interesting... nice special tank and staller but not used much)
    Marowak ---> BL
    Moltres ---> BL
    Ninjask ---> BL (only on BP teams... which are rare itself)
    Regirock ---> BL
    Rhydon ---> BL
    Slaking ---> BL
    Steelix ---> BL
    Tauros ---> BL (I've seen it once. Viable, but not used much because top physical attackers like sala/gross or lax outshines it)
    Umbreon---> BL (If EspyJump is, ChaosBreon should be too!)
    Venusaur ---> BL

    Haryiama ---> UU
    (does shit in OU, and i don't think it'd be gamebreaking in UU)
    Miltank ---> UU (see above)
    Swellow ---> UU (see above)
    Furret ---> UU (Movepool isn't THAT bad compared to some other pokes. Would make a good UU-CB)
    Girafarig ---> UU (Can pass CM's AND Agilities and its stats aren't all that bad after a CM)
    Whishcash ---> UU (Pretty strong if you ask me)

    Roselia ---> NU
    Bellossom ---> NU (crappy vileplume apparently)
    Hitmonchan ---> NU
    (Worse than Hitmonlee and Hitmontop and other fighters)
    Tangela ---> NU

    Debatable
    Wynaut ---> BL (I think it was Obi who put up an argument, and it really does make sense. It's basically a 3x worse Dugtrio, and too strong for UU)
    Alakazam ---> BL (Not seen as much, and I'm not sure why)
    Dragonite ---> BL (Pretty much a similar-yet-different Sala)
    Flygon ---> BL (Outclassed by Sala IMO... I mean it's got a worse trait and worse attacks AND worse stats)
    Linoone ---> BL (Tried him out and he is pretty strong because with Salac he hits 396 and gets Belly Drum and STAB Flail)
    Medicham ---> BL (I really don't know how much it's used)
    Sceptile ---> BL (Grassers really never used)

    Scizor ---> UU
    (uhh, Scyther is pretty much better and both don't do much in OU)
    Clamperl ---> UU
    (What you get when you cross the HP of a Shedninja and the attack of a Marowak. It's basically Marowak but one level lower, hence UU)
    Shuckle ---> UU (shit is strong. Don't see how Wynaut is Uber and this guy is NU)

    Exploud ---> NU (Really only useful for Soundproof, and Mr. Mime says hi)
    Sneasel ---> NU (Whats the point of Swords Dancing on this guy with terrible stats and movepool

    As stated before, only the "Fully Evolved Pokemon" should be included on the list. Exceptions are if the last pokemon is different from the fully evolved one (Trapinch *NU, Pikachu *UU, Vigoroth *UU, Scyther *UU are the top ones... there are some others like Duskull and the crap bugs). This means Kadabra and Chansey should be removed. Make a note somewhere that all other Not Fully Evolved Pokemon are considered Borderline. That's just my idea.

    Yawn, buncha pokes can work good in BL but deserve to stay UU... Lanturn... Gligar.... Granbull. I don't see why people are suggesting them though. I don't play UU much, but as long as it's not "broken", it shouldn't be suggested into BL/OU. However, anything in BL that can work fine in UU without being broken should be moved down...

    Butterfree is pretty debatable - IMO it should stay UU though because dumping it in NU means anything with less than 85 Speed will get sleeped or mass stunned. Luvdisc, Ratticate, Minun, Plusle, Murkrow, Pidgeot, Venomoth, Aipom, Illumise, Ledian, Volbeat (Thanks PR!). Anything else in NU will get stunned/sleeped automatically unless they have a speed boost, and even if any of the above mentioned do go first, who's to say it'd kill Butterfree?

    Kingler should also stay UU. There are better Reversal/Flailers, and the only cool thing about Kingler is Crabhammer. Otherwise, he's outmatched by everything

    Vileplume should also stay UU. Outmatched by too much like Venusaur, Exeggutor and Celebi depending on the set

    Jynx is good BL IMO. Don't see it much.

    Also, rereading Obi's post on the second page, it seems like he disagrees with Chaos.

    Chaos says that tiers are based off usage, except for BL. Obi is the reverse, where tiers are based off power, except for BL. However, thinking about it Obi's is definately the better way and I'm sure many will agree with me.

    EDIT: Fixed my post up a bit. Testing around pokes suggested by other people

    DOUBLE EDIT: Fixed it up a bit more after Obi's explanation on second page
  3. chaos

    chaos
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    I agree with bumping up Cloyster, it seems to be a popular anti-Skarm. Wynaut could be considered without Leftovers, and the rest of what you gave in the "non debatable" section seems to be fine (assuming people want Steelix banned... I'm not sure what the consensus is on that.)

    Ludicolo should definitely be moved down to BL, Ninjask I say should probably stay in OU as it is the mainstay of every Baton Pass team... I wouldn't move Espeon and Houndoom.

    These are my thoughts! (and don't put yourself down, I thought they were good suggestions :x)
  4. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    (Repost with some rewording, as I think this all still applies)


    Wynaut should be moved to BL, or maybe even UU. It lack's Wobbuffet's massive HP, thus severely nerfing its effectiveness, is too slow to Encore or Destiny Bond effectively, and most things can 1-2HKO it. If you're concerned with draws, then how does moving it to ubers solve that? A Wobbuffet-Wobbuffet match up or Wynaut-Wynaut match up in ubers is just as much of a draw as it is in OU. Just ban Leftovers on Wobbuffet and Wynaut if the only reason you put it onto ubers is to avoid draws. If Leftovers are not allowable, then the only reason to avoid them is for their stats and ability. Wynaut's stats are too low for its ability to have any use (It would be more useless than Trapinch, except against Curselax, which an Encorezam stops far more effectively). Without Leftovers, even Wobbuffet would need reconsideration, possibly moving it down to OU. No Leftovers Wobbuffet/Wynaut makes sense, as it finally gets rid of that implication that ubers=fake. I'd say it's the most "real" tier, or at least, the least arbitrary.


    Vigoroth needs to be added to the list somewhere. All distinct Pokemon should be on there (a distinct Pokemon would be all final evolutions, and all pre-evos that are different in some meaningful way from their fully evolved counterpart). Vigoroth and Slaking are two completely different Pokemon. If Slowbro and Slowking, who are virtually identical, get two entries, then Vigoroth deserves it, too. I'd put it in UU, as it has lower attack and speed than Fearow, a lot less attack and worse trait than Granbull, etc. The only real advantage to it is to run Flail and Reversal on the same set, which stops people who rely solely on things like Aggron to wall Flailers, but then they're still lost against things like Hitmonlee, who is a far better Reversaler than Vigoroth, anyway.

    If Kadabra and Chansey make the cut for being on the list for purposes of banning them from UU, then Pupitar might also belong in BL, thanks to that STAB EQ and Dragon Dance.

    What is the general policy on NFEs in UU and NU?

    Arcanine is definitely not more powerful than Gligar, it should be moved down to UU. Of course, I haven't tried out the special sweeper set, so maybe that is enough of a powerful thing to be banned, but I doubt it. Really, Arcanine isn't that much of a threat.

    Umbreon should be dropped down to BL.


    Really, we need some sort of thing where you just say "Pokemon X is OU, Pokemon Y is BL" so we know where the cutoff line is. How many Pokemon are we looking at for the OU tier before it gets dropped down to BL?
  5. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    I can see this fast devolving into another "debate," so I'll just say let's reserve our arguments for when we all have cold, hard numbers to back them up =/
  6. Bologo

    Bologo Have fun with birds and bees.
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    Clamperl should be moved to UU from UE because of deepseatooth and 542 sp.attack after that.

    Scyther should be moved to BL because IMO it's better than Scizor and the speed really helps it sweep and baton pass a lot more efficiently, and if Scizor is BL, Scyther should be too.

    Kingler should be BL because it has 130 attack, and 115 defense. It also has 75 speed which can be helped and it has amnesia to help its terrible special defense.

    Therefore IMO:

    Clamperl >>>> UU
    Scyther >>>> BL
    Kingler >>>> BL
  7. chaos

    chaos
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  8. Aeroblacktyl

    Aeroblacktyl The pizza doesn't scream in the oven! LOL!
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    These should all go down to BL. You never see any of these used.
    Goes to BL.

    Kingler should stay UU, you forget it's crap Specials. =/
    Scyther is eh...but you don't exactly seeing it doing much in the UU Metagame..

    Espeon and Houndoom shouldn't be moved up to OU.

    I think Pikachu needs to be in UU for the same reason Clamperl is.

    Even without leftoevers on Wobbu/Wynaut, you still have run through like roughly 90 PP to get to the struggle phase. =[
  9. david stone

    david stone Fast-moving, smart, sexy and alarming.
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    But it eventually ends, rather than causing a draw. Wobbuffet needs something like 44 consecutive CHes to KO enemy Wobbuffet, give or take.
  10. Mow

    Mow

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    if everyone decided that wooper was badass and everyone played it, it would hit OU play?

    I always thought tiers were based off of utility, and thus became used more often for being useful.

    can't wait till every team is salamence zapdos tyrantiar ect.
  11. meddle

    meddle
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    The special set is beastly, with both uu special tanks (grumpig/hypno) being weak to base 100 crunch, and solrock as well. It can really rip through teams in underused.

    Arcanine is indeed a threat, in my opinion. And if you go by base stat totals it's above Blissey, Snorlax, Milotic, and Gyarados, if that means anything.

    It should be BL.
  12. Amelia

    Amelia

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    Cough. (does anyone know mirror coat doesn't work against dark, and counter doesn't work against ghost?)

    Leave wobbuffet at uber.
    Houndoom should be OU. It's a special sweeper that can work against blissey.
    Dusclops - BL. It's hardly used except for stall teams.
    Lanturn - BL. The volt absorb rocks. Add to the fact that it can boltbeam.
    Electabuzz - BL. Subpunch Boltbeam. (replace beam with ice punch).

    Think that's about it.
  13. Devilkid

    Devilkid

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    My changes would be:

    Eggy -> BL It never worked good in OU game, Solar Beam gets fucked up by Boah switch ins or w/e.
    Arcanine -> UU Man this thing fucking sucks, I have no clue why you have that in BL, no one ever uses this!!!
    Dodrio -> OU 350 Att, 299 Speed, STAB Return+Drill Peck. Pack a Maggy+Duggy (Nubcombo) on your team and Dodrio rapes!
    Hariyama -> UU LOL BL? Machamp is so much better and in UU u still have Primeape, which outclasses Hariyama imo too.
    Jynx -> OU Well this thing is insane good. It's even difficult to counter in OU, and if you make a UU+BL tourney, hf searching for a counter for Jynx. :lol: On top you have Gardy in OU, so why shouldn't this be OU too??
    Swellow -> UU There is enough in UU, which counters this!
    Lanturn -> BL Lanturn rules!
    Tentacruel -> BL Oh god, this thing dominates the UU game so much, besides Quaggy I don't find a counter to this. :( Make it BL!
  14. SpaceFlare

    SpaceFlare

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    Tangela, Hitmonchan, Flareon to NU imo.

    Swellow and Hariyama to UU.

    Cloyster and Jynx move up to OU.

    Blaziken, Charizard, and Exeggutor BL.
  15. dynamo

    dynamo

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    Cloyster to OU imo

    Umbreon to BL, it hardly ever sees use, as well as Breloom
  16. gene

    gene GENE
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    Breloom: To BL. I haven't seen anyone use this for a really long time.

    Exeggutor: To BL. Eggy is way too rare.

    Ludicolo: To BL. Haven't ever seen Ludicolo be common.

    Ninjask: To BL. Baton Pass teams aren't even all that common anyway. Ninjask is almost never used outside BP teams either.

    Regirock: To BL. Rarely see this used.

    Umbreon: To BL. I haven't seen this used outside BP teams much, and not many people use Umbreon anymore.

    Venusaur: To BL. This is not really used much at all, I don't see why it would be OU.

    Cloyster: To OU. I see this used a LOT.

    Also about some other suggestions:

    Arcanine should stay BL. The special set (Fire Blast/Crunch/HP Grass/Extremespeed) is damn hard to counter. This is an excellent Pokemon and way too good for UU, as I have seen with my SF matches.

    Lanturn should stay UU. It's not even that common anymore and if it is used, it is pretty easily stalled.

    Tentacruel should stay UU. Why would anyone want to ban this anyway. Tenta is totally screwed by Feraligatr, Quagsire and anything with the defenses to take a Sludge Bomb and hurt it with Tbolt/Quake.

    Electabuzz should stay UU. Nobody uses Focus Punch or Cross Chop in UU, not like it would do anything. Just get a special wall like Hypno or Grumpig and problem solved. This isn't broken at all.


    Moving Swellow and Hariyama to UU would make them whored but I can't see them being broken.
  17. Sir Spanky

    Sir Spanky

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    I don't have anything particulally influencial to say about moving specific Pokemon, but I still say we don't include any NFE's except Scyther, Vigaroth, Pikachu and Trapinch, in UU, UU, UU and NU respectively, as they are the only NFE's that actually play different to their evolved counterparts.

    Having shit like Kadabra/Haunter/Metang/Chansey in BL/UU just makes it into OU-lite, which pretty muke ruins the whole idea of the UU metagame. It isn't supposed to be a weaker version of the OU game, but using the NFE's forces it to be.

    Spanky
  18. Snapple

    Snapple

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    :x Anyway, I guess I shouldn't have made assumptions about how confused people are over the tiers. I only said what I said, because if we changed the names OU and UU and whatnot now, I think people will start asking questions about why it changed, and old people coming back to the game might be thrown for a curve and whatnot, but that is not for me to decide obviously. I'll shut up about it.

    Back to the real topic, which is deciding what belongs on what tier, I just have a couple.
    • Roselia should be added to NU. (Originally I thought UU, but some posts in the last topic convinced me it ought to be NU instead)
    • Move Butterfree from UU down to NU. I don't think Butterfree is too powerful for the NU metagame by a longshot.
    • Add Pikachu to UU. Reasons obvious. It's unique enough to set it apart from Raichu, and that makes it worth its own entry, unlike most NFEs.
    • Add Vigoroth to UU. Completely different animal from Slaking.
    I'm against adding any NFEs to the list that don't have advantages over their FEs. Pikachu and Vigoroth have obvious advantages. Clamperl does, too, but I never see anyone use Clamperl.
  19. Jumpman16

    Jumpman16 np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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    Ok I already hate this thread...do you have any idea how many pokemon would "rape" with Magneton and Dugtrio support? If this thread is going to continue to breed arguments as silly as this one, I really, really think there's no point to discussing tiers at all, at least not on a widescale level.
  20. Slobroking

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    * Alakazam
    * Blaziken
    * Charizard
    * Exeggutor
    * Gardevoir
    * Ludicolo
    * Marowak
    * Moltres
    * Regirock
    * Rhydon
    * Umbreon
    * Venusaur

    The above should all be BL IMO, not because they aren't strong but because they aren't used much.

    * Chansey should be removed from the list
    * Cloyster should be OU
    * Kadabra should be removed from the list
    * Bellossom should be NU
    * Butterfree should be NU
    * Exploud should be NU
    * Hitmonchan should be NU
    * Kingler should be NU
    * Seviper should be NU
    * Sneasel should be NU
    * Tangela should definately be NU
  21. chaos

    chaos
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    If you aren't going to read the first post in its enterity, do NOT post in this topic. I clearly outline that the tiers are based on usage and not power, so stop giving excuses such as "it's REALLY strong." Gardevoir is in OU because the list needs fixing. God. :/

    No UU+BL arguments either, Smogon doesn't allow BLs just like standard doesn't allow Ubers. If you want to make your own weird variant of a tournament where you pick 1 or 2 BLs/1 or 2 Ubers feel free to also change the list slightly to suit that style of play.

    Yes, but nobody will use Wooper so dumb "what if" posts are useless. I could say in response "what if everybody thought wooper was badass and really strong so it was put in the OU tier because people thought it was powerful"

    And every team is already like that. Welcome to Pokemon, kid
  22. Yuki

    Yuki

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    seriously, I am also tired of dumbshits posting stuff in threads like this saying LOLZSERZ WHAT IF CB RATATTA BECAME STANDARD. Smogon is not full of idiots, thats serebii =x.

    Also, I still say Butterfree needs to be put into NU. I have never seen anyone use Butterfree in UU and the thought of it makes me laugh (And this is coming from a guy that used Butterfree in his JAA team :/). You would THINK it would get used because of Compoundeyes Sleeppowder, but it doesnt.

    Along with Butterfree, Flareon, Hitmonchan, and Tangela need moved down for the same reason, they are quite literally never used.

    Rolelia is Neverused by the way, yet people wont stop bitching that its not on the list. Irony for the win.

    Also, wouldn't it be a good idea to sticky this?
  23. The.Lost.Hylian

    The.Lost.Hylian I'll have what you're drinking
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    After reading chaos' lengthy new first post in this thread, I had to lol when I saw Venusaur was still listed as OU.
  24. Iggeh

    Iggeh

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    I'll leave all that tier listing debating to you guys, I'd just like it if Roselia was actually on the freaking list.
  25. Animerocks

    Animerocks

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    Pikachu-Neverused atleast,if not underused for sure.I have been able to ohko milotic and suicune with a volt takle,provided it was maxed out sp atk @ an adamant nature,also Light ball and the fact that pikachu does not focus punch worth shit makes it a completly different pogey from raichu.

    Houndoom-This thing rapes the standard metagame,it is standard for sure with the 2 double stabs in speical atk and base 110 sp atk to work off of.

    Dodrio-Move this to standard imo,pair it with anything with a decent sp atk and a good fire move and this thing can tear anything in two,i personally like the flail set =/.

    Flygon-Borderline imo,Do not get me wrong he probably is good,but ive never understood why he is classified as a standard,he just doesnt seem good enough to be classified as such.

    Vigoroth-He has the stats and moves to be considerd Underused imo.

    Roselia-Neverused,did you guys forget to add this or somthing?

    Lanturn-Borderline,the abilty to boltbeam of decent sp atk and the abilty to counter bolt(absorb)/beam/bulkywaters make its worthy of boderline.

    Raichu-Honestly,i think this guy is bl. It has a very good movepool espcially with its type(electric),and it has the stats to make use of it.

    Butterfree-Come on now,its clear that it is a neverused pogey.

    I wil let you know when i think more.

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