Advanced Tiers Revisited revisited

[Mr.E]

I still stand by Tentacruel/Regirock/Golem bumping up a level each. At least we moved Steelix down.

And don't keep giving me that "power is irrelevant in tier formation" garbage. Or maybe it's supposed to be and we still need to refine the list a bit. I mean, how often is something like Donphan used anyway? ;/ Unless we have a secret list of usage percentages that everybody is hiding from me.

 

[Jackal]

I forgot I posted in this topic.

Slowking is really bad, I wouldnt reccomend using it in competitive UU really as it doesnt benefit from an awesome DEF like slowbro has. Walreins defensive stats are more solid.

And walreins RARELY have eq, encore is even rare (unless you are 0rz apparently). Azumaril is really not that good and is not even that good a counter. Poliwrath is meh but you have to think about it this way: Do I want to use the subpar poliwrath on my team solely to counter walrein? I would much rather use walrein itself and let the other team worry about it. Lanturn really is the number one counter, and besides that what most people rely on is their own walrein something almost all (good) competivie players are running in the metagame currently.

The bottom line is, if your team does not have walrein or lanturn or one of those other subpar water types, and your opponent is running walrein with the standard set me and g80 mentioned, you are going to lose and there is nothing you can do about it (barring a timely ch).

There are ways to make kanga and the like switch out. Walrein fears (almost) nothing.

Ban walrein please. Especially for the upcoming weak sneak tourney. It will make the world a better place.

EDIT: clarified my slowking part as husk thought I was recommending moving it down to NU.

 

[Mr.E]

Azumaril is really not that good ... Poliwrath is meh ...

argh no stop >:O

and kangaskhan owns you and owns walrein because he is gay but not as gay as dewgong still

 

[Reflect Suicune]

my opinions... the more valid and better thought-out ones are at the top

Any NFEs that are too strong for the tier they would naturally fall into should be moved somewhere else. Random Example: No one uses Chansey, but it is too strong for UU play and thus should be moved to BL

Using chaos' example about people in tourneys, I am just bringing up the point that few people use BP teams in tourneys so no matter how common certain pokemon are on BP teams, the fact is, BP teams and their trademark pokemon are rare, and should therefore all be moved to BL...

Alakazam, Exeggutor, Venusaur, Marowak(not having lefties significantly diminishes his value), Gardevoir(used even less than zam is) should all be moved down to atleast BL, as they are rarely used, and are all not nearly as useful as many other pokemon that are OU.

I do not see regirock any more than I see registeel, and they are both equally useless, so one should be moved to the other's tier.

I could see Venusaur being in UU, because there are plenty of psychics, fires and other stuff that can easily handle him.

The UU metagame is filled with fire punches, flamethrower, waters and other stuff that can easily counter scizor, therefore it should be moved to UU.

This is just my experience but Cradily is boring and annoyingly hard to handle in UU, and I think it should be moved to BL

edit: nevermind dodrio, someone reminded me how awesome fearow already is

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

Ive just found out that Venusaur has been moved down to BL. I cant believe it. Hes used more than stuff like Dragonite and Vaporeon, and they are Standards (and imho they definately deserve to be where they are).

Sure, Vensuaur is not the world's best Pokemon, but he does pose a threat to some Standards and he is used a fair bit.

Well, I guess I cant do anything about it, and he is near the bottom of the Standard tier anyways...

 

[Muchabi]

Vaporeon is used a more than Venusaur. More than lots of stuff. It's one of the 4 standard bulky waters, along with Suicune, Milotic, and Swampert. Wish, BP, and Haze make it stand out among the 4, though it's still the least used... Don't knock vap! lol. Srry, vap fan here. (see: avatar)

Oh, if Suicune ever rises any more in popularity, Vaporeon numbers will grow with that, as it IS the best wallish thing for it. Haze + water absorb.

I also use dragonite for heal belling, but yeah I'll agree it should maybe be borderline because everyone's stupid with Salamences. There's like 5 ppl that have ever used dragonite for an extended period of time.

Venusaur should stay in BL because I haven't seen many. Never EVER seen one on a tournament-caliber team...

Vap: Stays OU.
Drag: BL?
Venusaur: Stays BL.

Do make it clear that BLs should stay out of UU fights unless a warning is given, it really sucks when you play a rated UU match and a freakin Dodrio/Miltank/Jumpluff comes out... BL = TOO STRONG FOR UU

...and Walrein users should be required to put "I USE WALREIN" in their profile for UU teams. That is, if it doesn't go to BL.
(Meh, I'd just like to say that I'm not a horrible UU player, I win 90%+ of my matches (okay, okay, most UU players just play it for fun, but whatever), but a certain guy with Walrein beat me three times. And I have to say that it was the Walrein that did it, not the other pokes. Try playing UU with a team that you didn't specifically put Walrein counters in, and you'll see something.)

Think of Walrein in UU as Blissey in OU, annoyingly hard to kill, usually takes forever, but dang, we don't get stuff like tyraniboah or McIceGar in UU...

On another note that's not Walrein hating...
Donphan: BL? Effectively extinct methinks, since everyone that needs a ground uses... um... well... rhydon's apparently considered cooler, and swampert's more used.

 

[Mekkah]

Oh boy, that's a lot of nonsense you're posting there. : (

Think of Walrein in UU as Blissey in OU, annoyingly hard to kill, usually takes forever, but dang, we don't get stuff like tyraniboah or McIceGar in UU...

Poliwrath. Substitute, Focus Punch, Hydro Pump, Hidden Power Ghost/Rock. Or squeeze in Bulk Up or Belly Drum. There's your antistaller everythingcritter that messes up Walrein for good. If you're affraid of Toxic, use Sleep Talk.

"I USE WALREIN"...god what's next? That smells like these suckers that are so scared of brazilians getting angry about their Skarmory/Blissey teams that they put "I use Skarm and/or Bliss" in their profile.

Do make it clear that BLs should stay out of UU fights unless a warning is given, it really sucks when you play a rated UU match and a freakin Dodrio/Miltank/Jumpluff comes out... BL = TOO STRONG FOR UU

It's already there.

I also use dragonite for heal belling, but yeah I'll agree it should maybe be borderline because everyone's stupid with Salamences. There's like 5 ppl that have ever used dragonite for an extended period of time.

What would you know about how many people used Dragonite? Noobster nearly won Smogon Tournament #2 with his Dragonite team (changed teams in the last rounds though), Dragonite was a staple on one of my premiere RS Bot teams and was going to be on my Smogon Tournament #3 team, lots of people have used it.

Vaporeon isn't used as much as the other three bulky waters, but still enough for OU status.

 

[rekt]

Think of Walrein in UU as Blissey in OU, annoyingly hard to kill, usually takes forever, but dang, we don't get stuff like tyraniboah or McIceGar in UU...

Why complain about Walrein in UU, when there are tons of things that can kill it such as Stantler, Kanga, Granbull. Complaining about a Pokemon being too hard to kill that doesnt have a recovery move(not rest) is stupid. Celebi and Blissey make sense, though Blissey dies to physical attacks, same with walrein. There are no celebi in UU, or anything likeit.

 

[Jackal]

Stantler is my fav pokemon but even I know it cannot kill walrein ;__;

The only one of those three that stands a chance is kanga (the rest version, not the wish ones).

And Mekkah I don't want to be forced to use poliwrath =|


But I don't really care anymore I made 2 new solid uu teams and both have lanturn with rest so im not fucked by that fucking walrus. Too bad this is what I have to resort to.

 

[Mr.E]

I do not see regirock any more than I see registeel, and they are both equally useless...

Regirock absolutely shits on Registeel.

And I'm a bit on the bubble about Walrein. I've been saying since 200 that Walrein was basically Lapras without Tbolt.

 

[Pratty]

This may be minor, but Butterfree doesn't deserv UU status IMO. Things can sleep better then it in UU and it would be a perfect fit in NU. It gets countered Very Easy in UU, but in NU it seems to fit much better.

Some reasons that it seems this is:

Butterfree is easily outclassed in UU by other Double-Powder pokes. It dies to almost any attack in UU and will never be used a lot in UU.

in NU it might be able to sleep stuff with speed, Then Paralyze it! Sleep it! Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Rock Slide/Hidden Power Rock/Rock Blast(Nothing that learns Rock blast is in NU, but I'm showing you that most SE attacks will kill it). Also, After Double Powder, What does it have? Psychic? I came up with a Sweepers set for it, but it only swept 1/2 Pokes in NU and none in UU testing(Didn't even bother with Standards, It was obvious it wouldn't work). Others can test it out in UU/NU, they will see it doesn't Drastically change the NU metagame but is the pits in UU.

 

[Mekkah]

I'm just saying Poliwrath can act as a "Boah" of sorts by using Walrein to set up his dangerous stuff. Anyway I couldn't care less if Walrein was banned from UU, something else will become dominant and we'll keep it coming. Though Walrein's stats are surprisingly good.

 

[Animerocks]

Is there any good reason Ludicolo is standard? Because if he is standard then so is Eggy. =/

 

[Mekkah]

Ludicolo counters Waters, especially Swampert. In Smogon Tours he's quite good due to lack of Celebi. Exeggutor doesn't counter anything completely. Apples and oranges, or coconuts and pineapples if you will.

 

[Great Sage]

Eggy needs a turn of setup for a Solarbeam against bulky waters, and during that turn its weak Special Defense gets slapped by a SE Ice Beam.

 

[Mr.E]

Or you could just not use a SunnyBeam-based moveset. Exeggutor is versatile enough to warrent using something more "normal," you know.

Not that this has a damn thing to do with its tier placement. Eggy is the man, though.

 

[DChiuch]

Many people will probably disagree, but in my opinion, Dragonite should be Borderline and not Standard.

As the tiers represent usage, Dragonite should be moved down to UU, as it is not used much (Breloom is used a lot more). It would then be bumped up to Borderline, because it is too powerful.

What would you know about how many people used Dragonite? Noobster nearly won Smogon Tournament #2 with his Dragonite team (changed teams in the last rounds though), Dragonite was a staple on one of my premiere RS Bot teams and was going to be on my Smogon Tournament #3 team, lots of people have used it.

Yes, that is true, but people should also note that it is seen much less than Breloom, Ninjask or Cloyster (which are all Borderline).

 

[obi]

We really need to get started with NFEs. I recommend placing all non-distinct Pokemon (so not Vigoroth, Pikachu, etc., those are actual Pokemon) on the BL tier by default. This means we don't have to have Kadabra and stuff on the tiers at all, just say that all Pokemon not mentioned are considered BL. Then we look at the really weak NFEs. Put those into NU. To simplify things, we could just say that all NU NFEs are also NU. Then you don't have to include stuff like Ratata and Pidgey. NU could then include Pokemon like Diglett and the like.

Or, if this is not seen as a good move, then just say "All other Pokemon are considered BL", so these Pokemon at least have a tier.

 

[teh n00b]

Obi's first idea is cool++

And I thought the second idea was being used now ._.

 

[obi]

Right now we have no information whatsoever on NFEs on the tier.

 

[obi]

Clamperl needs a tier. I recommend UU, as those poor defenses, combined with pathetic Speed, means it can't really make use of its boosted Special Attack. I don't want to add this unilaterally, because it can have an effect on a current tournament, Smorgasbord, although I doubt anyone would even use it. =)

Also we might want to consider either cleaning out this thread or making "Advanced Tiers Revisited yet again", because a 9 page thread is kind of intimidating and unwieldy, and many of the stuff on earlier pages has already been decided.

 

[Mantis]

Let me just say this: Walrein does not deserve BL status.

Walrein isnt hard to counter at all. Any choicebander with a decent attack that isnt weak to ice beam/surf will win. Walrein is not the "Blissey of UU" and needs no Boah to stop it. It's weak to fighting and rock, and pokes such as wrath, kabutops , any of the hipmons beat it. And HEY! My name is Tentacruel and I laugh at walrein,who can't even toxic me. Sub to check for earthquake and if no EQ, GG.

Even the electrics beat it. ALL of them.

EDIT: Subpunch wrath is kind of unnecessary. Any experienced player would predict the sub and use encore. Just. Use. Brick Break.

 

[nomargu46]

espeon should be OU

flareon should stay UU

 

[Great Sage]

I'd like to see Slaking moved down to BL. I haven't seen any of those for probably two weeks of heavy Netbattling.

 

[rekt]

Slaking wouldn't see any more use in BL than it would in OU. Slaking is still a monster, people just choose not to use it.