AAA Almost Any Ability

[drampa's grandpa]

Magearna is starting to concern me. The fact that it is on nearly every team as the ONLY check to some of the most powerful partycrashers in the tier is, imo, problematic. I don't actually think Magearna is the source of this problem, but rather a symptom, and I would personally like a tier where I can use something that is beaten by Magearna (like Hoopa-U, Drampa<3) and is not one of the aforementioned crazy threats like Xurkitree and not have them be total deadweight. I've taken to running a Magnet Pull mon JUST for Magearna, I don't even care if it beats other Steel types, and Magearna's stellar coverage means I often have to sack something anyway to get it in (rip that one time I tried to switch in Lando-T and they had Ice Beam). The worst part is, the Magnet Puller NEEDS to be immune to Volt Switch, so Ground type, which is easily abused by coverage like Ice Beam.

Something needs to go, because imo Magearna is unhealthily centralizing.

EDIT: E4 Flint mentioned Excadrill, and I should mention that that is what I switched to as my Mag Mag Pull. Works ok but

0 SpA Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 204-242 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Excadrill: 136-162 (32 - 38.2%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You have to run Max HP max attack to win against Aura Sphere variants.
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 326-386 (108.3 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Magearna Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 204-242 (48.1 - 57%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Edit edit: OR ASSAULT VEST Quantum Tesseract

 

[Poor Exeggcution]

I started running a support Innards Out Guzzlord specifically to counter Megearna, as my Mudslap/Charge Beam Chansey only works if someone isn't running recovery, levitate or nom-nom-zap abilities.

The darn thing doesn't have the biggest movepool, but it hits where it matters, with great coverage against its weaknesses, and a nice typing already.

But I've comfortably developed decent counters, of all people. Me. Me. Yet, my playstyle is incredibly reactive in nature, so I've naturally gravitated to counters for the biggest percieved threats. (Likely at the sacrifice of more reasonable and reliable team choices) So the real question I have, as a relative neophyte to participating in the competitive scene, (particularly AAA) are these:

•How many reliable counters does a pokemon need?

•How much should a player be expected to accommodate such a creature to be a competitive ladder threat?

•How much should said threatening pokemon be expected to sacrifice by taking a different ability? (To counter its counter(s))

 

[eat pray balk]

is there really any reason for blaziken to be banned in a meta where absolutely anything can run speed boost

 

[drampa's grandpa]

Yeah magearna gets appropriate coverage that's for sure, but to be honest running a magnet pull isn't that big of a issue. Since most of the magnet pullers are strong attackers they aren't dead-weight in most matches.

For eg :: Personally I have been running entei as mag-puller and it hasn't disappointed me at all. Also mag-puller doesn't need to be immune to volt switch tbh. It is nice if it is but as I said all you need is to bait it. I have been running volt absorb magaerna with min speed since magaerna's main counter is magaerna itself, so it's pretty easy to either force it out if opponent knows mine is volt absorb, then I just volt switch out or it gets trapped. Volt Absorb isn't dead weight either, yeah the lack of regenerator sucks but it is a hard stop to xurk sets etc.

The main thing I was referring to here isn't to show off my strategy or something, but the thing is since people tend to play it so recklessly it's easy to have a counter-play against magearna. The thing with magaerna is that it is the main thing which keeps dangerous shit like psychic surge mega-zam, most speed boost special mons like xurk, under check. Obviously we don't want to ban every sweeper, so if magearna is forced out of the tier, it'll open the lid of massive number of bans, because believe me however people might try it, they lack checks to special wall-breakers most of the time except magaerna. Yeah unaware chansey is a solution but it straight up folds against pheromosa(special).

So imo we should let the meta develop for now as people tend to find counter-plays time to time to dominant play-styles because banning something and not the other will open a can of worms.( for eg. if we make sure powerful stuff goes, then breaking stall becomes impossible due to magearna, if magearna goes stuff like mega-zam will run rampant and if both go meta will become stale af).

I should note I'm not calling for a Magearna ban, merely pointing to its omnipresence as a symptom of an unhealthy metagame. I would rather look at some of the sweepers / wallbreakers it's used to check, such as Xuriktree (or speed boost). If Magearna is the only answer to a Xuriktree at +3/+1 (an entirely reasonable situation in the current meta) besides Chansey then imo it's a problem.

What else have people been using as Xuriktree counters? Do Sap Sipper grounds work?

 

[E4 Flint]

Volt absorb toxpex has been solid since day 1 for me and checks koko p well too

 

[Poor Exeggcution]

I should note I'm not calling for a Magearna ban, merely pointing to its omnipresence as a symptom of an unhealthy metagame. I would rather look at some of the sweepers / wallbreakers it's used to check, such as Xuriktree (or speed boost). If Magearna is the only answer to a Xuriktree at +3/+1 (an entirely reasonable situation in the current meta) besides Chansey then imo it's a problem.

What else have people been using as Xuriktree counters? Do Sap Sipper grounds work?

Sturdy/Sash revenge killers are usually sufficient as counters- Mirror Coat could use a little more love IMO. But point is, you aren't *entirely* giving up your pokemon to take down Xurk. Sturdy/Chesto-rest can even get your pokemon back on its feet with a decent speed tier.
Priority Topsy Turvy is also fun. Though really, in my experience, Speed Boost Xurkitree is only getting as far as it is right now because its not *quite* common enough anymore for folks to always carry dedicated counters that would be effectively dead weight in other players eithout a Xurk.

I will say though, that I've been running a support Galvantula with Sticky Web, and it has been a fantastic Speed Boost counter. Unless the SB pokemon is Flying- which few are -A single Protect is now insufficient. The reflexive protect becomes a free switch into a pokemon able to outspeed and KO a Xurk. Or if it has priority, it doesn't even need to OHKO- SB means no Dazzling.

is there really any reason for blaziken to be banned in a meta where absolutely anything can run speed boost

I would love to run Blaziken in this tier, but I have to wonder if it not being unbanned is a sign that SB might be next on the chopping block. Which IMO isn't an unreasonable assumption, with it having been banned in past AAA.
Really, Speed Boost is honestly kinda OP in my book, especially with the existence of Zmoves and Unburden, both of which offer a more balanced (and widely available) means of boosting pokemon with underwhelming speed.

 

[Sylveon.]

I should note I'm not calling for a Magearna ban, merely pointing to its omnipresence as a symptom of an unhealthy metagame. I would rather look at some of the sweepers / wallbreakers it's used to check, such as Xuriktree (or speed boost). If Magearna is the only answer to a Xuriktree at +3/+1 (an entirely reasonable situation in the current meta) besides Chansey then imo it's a problem.

What else have people been using as Xuriktree counters? Do Sap Sipper grounds work?

Actually I wasn't pointing you out, I just quoted you to start a discussion. I think the main problem here lies with speed boost as I have stressed earlier, speed boost on anything that can set-up is an incredible ability specially in gen-7 where we have so much anti-priority. Don't get me wrong, xurk is really strong but it's manageable at +1 speed since it is still outsped by plenty of scarf mons and mega-zam on offense and on stall it doesn't matter since they usually run unaware chansey anyways.
Not only Xurk, even lando if allowed to set-up can wreck shit due to speed boost. Speed Boost isn't exactly unplayable but it is extremely restraining for offense or balance playstyles or in general for any team if they don't have an unaware fat wall.

 

[eat pray balk]

don't really have a devoted xurk counter
if nothing else i get a cheap excuse for my sub-1300 elo

i could see testing a speed boost ban, maybe look at psychic surge after if it's an issue, but keep qm/dazzling so -atespeed doesn't faceroll everything

xurk has plenty of stuff it can run if speed boost is banned, too (no guard, tinted lens, swift swim, sheer force, maybe surge surfer)

 

[Lcass4919]

so after a long time of talking and stuff, we finally banned pheramosa.

pheramosa was honestly one of the biggest problems in the tier right now, its high jump kick was destructive, its offensive stats were stellar, and its typing and coverage paved way for some AMAZING abilities to support it, stakeout due to the switches it causes, download/tough claws to abuse the power it already has, amplifying it immensely. sheer force to pick off would be checks and counters with a surprise special set, and even dazzling to shrug off priority. so finally, i was able to cut down one of the biggest problems plagueing this meta. good riddance!

The Immortal

one last thing, i plan to do some unbans once we get most of the quickbans/suspects out of the way. unfortunately due to the pacing of our suspects, im going to have to say it might not happen for awhile due to the rotations. sorry guys. with that being said, we will try to keep you on the knowhow, but for now, we are kind of in a "we need to wait to suspect" scenario.

 

[Sylveon.]

Dang!
Pheromosa getting banned means offense has to pretty much make their teams again, and more importantly find another stall-breaker. Now I expect to see much less of volt-turn offense teams as pheromosa was pretty much the face of them, but more of a gen-6 style, balance teams. Idk but offense will surely decrease in viability.
Also, Lcass4919 don't want to intrude but what about speed boost. I mean surely it's not only me who thinks it's broken(or atleast restraining).

 

[Lcass4919]

Dang!
Pheromosa getting banned means offense has to pretty much make their teams again, and more importantly find another stall-breaker. Now I expect to see much less of volt-turn offense teams as pheromosa was pretty much the face of them, as more of a gen-6 style, balance teams. Idk but offense will surely decrease in viability.
Also, Lcass4919 don't want to intrude but what about speed boost. I mean surely it's not only me who thinks it's broken(or atleast restraining).

whats the fun in me telling you guys our plans in advance. ;) you are gunna have to wait a bit and see!

 

[EchoGaia]

The ban of Pheromosa also means offense has to run Tapu Koko now to prevent Weavile from destroying their teams, with maybe some Psychic Terrain support. That shows again how much Weavile is centralizing right now and even more now you removed one of the few pokemons that could revenge kill it cause let's be honest, nothing switches into its Techincian Beat Up set.

 

[Aku Mau Ngetroll]

The ban of Pheromosa also means offense has to run Tapu Koko now to prevent Weavile from destroying their teams, with maybe some Psychic Terrain support. That shows again how much Weavile is centralizing right now and even more now you removed one of the few pokemons that could revenge kill it cause let's be honest, nothing switches into its Techincian Beat Up set.

i'm using Fluffy Diancie with max HP to counter it. yeah it's bad. don't use it.
so what other people use for countering check it? Beat Up Technician with Kings Rock / Focus sash / life orb is ridiculous anyway.

 

[Akashi]

The ban of Pheromosa also means offense has to run Tapu Koko now to prevent Weavile from destroying their teams, with maybe some Psychic Terrain support. That shows again how much Weavile is centralizing right now and even more now you removed one of the few pokemons that could revenge kill it cause let's be honest, nothing switches into its Techincian Beat Up set.

Keldeo @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Protect
- Secret Sword
try this neat set i was using for weavile, it can check and sometimes counter most weavile sets, beat up is a problem because it can still manage to kill it thats if its lo thou

 

[EchoGaia]

I guess stall can use this, but if it's the only thing stall has for Weavile, it can be played around so that Weavile can demolish the team afterwards and that is what it's kind of worrying.

 

[Akashi]

honestly weavile isnt as problematic as it sounds, u can run any bulky triage user on offense like conk,breloom and regen buzzwole hard stops it

 

[EchoGaia]

so basically you mean a fighting type that can all be destroyed by Magearna? Great.

More seriously, I never said Weavile had no checks (which btw are kind of shaky cause they can still get bopped by Weavile common partners so) but that was the case in gen 6 too and it got banned.

 

[Poor Exeggcution]

so after a long time of talking and stuff, we finally banned pheramosa.

pheramosa was honestly one of the biggest problems in the tier right now, its high jump kick was destructive, its offensive stats were stellar, and its typing and coverage paved way for some AMAZING abilities to support it, stakeout due to the switches it causes, download/tough claws to abuse the power it already has, amplifying it immensely. sheer force to pick off would be checks and counters with a surprise special set, and even dazzling to shrug off priority. so finally, i was able to cut down one of the biggest problems plagueing this meta. good riddance!

The Immortal

one last thing, i plan to do some unbans once we get most of the quickbans/suspects out of the way. unfortunately due to the pacing of our suspects, im going to have to say it might not happen for awhile due to the rotations. sorry guys. with that being said, we will try to keep you on the knowhow, but for now, we are kind of in a "we need to wait to suspect" scenario.

So I've had a little time to ponder this, and I went and ran some numbers, and... It just doesn't add up from what I'm seeing. Without shenanigans, it can't OHKO (with physical nor specialsets) common 'mons like Scarf Keldeo, most zapdos and basically *any* megearna, which all don't have to be dedicated counters. These pokemon can all also OHKO *it* in response. And there are plenty of other 'mons it ca,'t OHKO, which in combination woth Regenerator/Poison Heal make it a matter of stalling. Not to mention the relative ease of causing Crash Damage with a free ghost switch in.

Also, Pheromosa is really predictable- that moveset is pretty darn shallow, and even with -Ate abilities and return, which I very, very rarely saw or heard of being used.

And a lot of others do raise a good point that Pheremosa was a great, versatile check to Weavile.

All that being said, my sets do derive inspiration from Cloud Coocooland, so my experience on the ladder is not an accurate representation of the meta as a whole. I wouldn't mind a further explanation on why Pheromosa was banned, and what determines the order in which -mons are banned in new metas.

Teach me, sensei.

As for dealing with Weavile, here's my ultimate counter:

Ninjask @ Focus Sash
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Swords Dance
- Leech Life
-

Ninjash naturally outspeeds the entire Metagame, and Dazzling keeps it that way. Its decent Attack stat means you can get some good hits from the getgo, but you can also tank a hit with your sash (And you basically will always Sash) to Swords Dance if you think you could subsequently OHKO the opponent and do some damage on the followup.

Against Weavile, always go Swords Dance- the common lead Fake Out will give you a free boost. Sash does withstand multi-hit moves, and you can just Leech Life to victory.

This is also a good counter for Mega Alakazam, Buswole, and has at times even handled non-Scarf/Swift Swim Keldeo. The last move slot is whatever you want it to be, but Ninjask has a crappy movepool. IMO, its a decent candidate for Giga Impact, if you have been seeded, poisoned, or otherwise expect to die anyway.

 

[Lcass4919]

So I've had a little time to ponder this, and I went and ran some numbers, and... It just doesn't add up from what I'm seeing. Without shenanigans, it can't OHKO (with physical nor specialsets) common 'mons like Scarf Keldeo, most zapdos and basically *any* megearna, which all don't have to be dedicated counters. These pokemon can all also OHKO *it* in response. And there are plenty of other 'mons it ca,'t OHKO, which in combination woth Regenerator/Poison Heal make it a matter of stalling. Not to mention the relative ease of causing Crash Damage with a free ghost switch in.

Also, Pheromosa is really predictable- that moveset is pretty darn shallow, and even with -Ate abilities and return, which I very, very rarely saw or heard of being used.

And a lot of others do raise a good point that Pheremosa was a great, versatile check to Weavile.

All that being said, my sets do derive inspiration from Cloud Coocooland, so my experience on the ladder is not an accurate representation of the meta as a whole. I wouldn't mind a further explanation on why Pheromosa was banned, and what determines the order in which -mons are banned in new metas.

Teach me, sensei.

As for dealing with Weavile, here's my ultimate counter:

Ninjask @ Focus Sash
Ability: Dazzling
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aerial Ace
- Swords Dance
- Leech Life
-

Ninjash naturally outspeeds the entire Metagame, and Dazzling keeps it that way. Its decent Attack stat means you can get some good hits from the getgo, but you can also tank a hit with your sash (And you basically will always Sash) to Swords Dance if you think you could subsequently OHKO the opponent and do some damage on the followup.

Against Weavile, always go Swords Dance- the common lead Fake Out will give you a free boost. Sash does withstand multi-hit moves, and you can just Leech Life to victory.

This is also a good counter for Mega Alakazam, Buswole, and has at times even handled non-Scarf/Swift Swim Keldeo. The last move slot is whatever you want it to be, but Ninjask has a crappy movepool. IMO, its a decent candidate for Giga Impact, if you have been seeded, poisoned, or otherwise expect to die anyway.

252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 331-391 (90.9 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO(not a counter...common sets barely a check)
252 Atk Tough Claws Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 313-370 (96.9 - 114.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock(scarf phera albeit a bit odd, is a thing. they also run adamant lol)
4 SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 186-220 (48.4 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery(not a counter)
and all of these die to stakeout if they try to switch in.

and priority can be shrugged off with dazzling if your that paranoid of it.
the problem i see with your mindset, is your assuming phera has to OHKO stuff to be "threatening" which just isnt really true. phera threatens the meta with its stupidly high speed tier (scarfed 80's dont even outpace it) alongside its better-then-average attacking stats which further help it threaten offensive teams, and common stops to its main sets, can easily be mitigated by simply running special phero. its versitility, combat power and speed tier is what made it broken. not its ability to ohko walls.

edit: pardon all the edits, i kinda wrote this up pretty fast, but i hope it gets my logic across. :P

 

[sin(pi)]

Sash does withstand multi-hit moves, and you can just Leech Life to victory.

this is false btw - you will always survive the first hit, true, but subsequent hits will KO you.

Someone (I think Chopin?) brought up a couple of other Weavile checks, one of which is Magearna - regenerator sets can come in consistently throughout the match as long as there aren't several layers of hazards up. Regen Mag is good at a ton of other things too, but you all already know that so I'm not going to list them.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Weavile Beat Up (90 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 121-142 (33.2 - 39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Weavile Beat Up (90 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 240-283 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Magearna can come in on SD or Beat Up reliably. This assumes an average base attack of 100 on your team (and yes, I took technician into effect). In return:
0 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 248-294 (88.2 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (36 Modest/Quiet guarantees the KO), or
0 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 402-474 (143 - 168.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Akashi]

so basically you mean a fighting type that can all be destroyed by Magearna? Great.

More seriously, I never said Weavile had no checks (which btw are kind of shaky cause they can still get bopped by Weavile common partners so) but that was the case in gen 6 too and it got banned.

Magearna doesnt beat breloom thou, dont act like magearna can switch into every fighting type in aaa and beat them it doesnt even beat conk and its not like only fighting teams get drain punch

 

[EchoGaia]

Magearna doesnt beat breloom thou, dont act like magearna can switch into every fighting type in aaa and beat them it doesnt even beat conk and its not like only fighting teams get drain punch

That was a joke though, but once Spore has been used, it cannot really beat Magearna cause Magearna OHKOes with Fleur Cannon and Breloom cannot OHKO with any move, but as what i said in MnM thread, it's the not the mon itself, but the mon+its partners. The most reliable answers are Fighting types, but they get bopped by Magearna and some other Fairy types. But i agree, Weavile is more broken in MnM than in AAA due to having stronger partners like Primal Groudon, Pheromosa or Regigigas.

Edit: Didn't see sinpi's post and yep Magearna checks it reliably as long as it doesn't have setup a Swords Dance before Magearna comes (but normally you don't let it do this) so yeah Magearna kind of counters it. Nonetheless, Magearna could be easy to Pressure with like a fast Magnet Pull user if you are Regen, so that's probably not enough.

 

[eat pray balk]

you realize banning phero just means people will replace it with more speed boost spam, right?
i'm not gonna say meme roach is something that's incredibly healthy, but it'd be better to step back and look at psychic surge, given how that completely invalidates most phero checks/counters without even taking up its ability slot

 

[EchoGaia]

actually Pheromosa was banned cause its Adaptability set was too much hard to handle if you don't have a Ghost type. it could even run Queenly Majesty or Dazzling to avoid priority. Basically it was too powerful.

 

[eat pray balk]

yeah, i know the thing was a damn pain for anything that wasn't HO and i'm not overly surprised/mad it got banned, i was running sash dazzling and it carried stupidly well with defog support

but there's also a ton of stuff that was kept in check by phero (psurge megazam, weavile, stamina abusers, slower speed boosters) that'll probably walk all over the tier now
i think psurge would've been the better pick to ban first, then see how phero does in a meta where -atespeed is relevant and its counter to it requires compromising some damage