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Metagame Almost Any Ability (Post 612: Challenge 3)

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Laxpras, Nov 26, 2016.

  1. frogstomperful

    frogstomperful

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    Here's a very basic idea for a low-tier starter.

    Emboar @ Life Orb
    Ability: Magic Guard
    IV's, EV's, Nature: mostly 31's but 0 Speed, 252 Attack and HP, Brave (because power)

    == Flare Blitz (no recoil for you!)
    == Superpower
    == Head Smash (no recoil for you!)
    == Wild Charge (no recoil for you!) // Earthquake

    Lower-tier mons deserve a chance to shine too. EDITED FOR TRICK ROOM.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
    Zephyr Dragon Lord likes this.
  2. Axel Hirogana

    Axel Hirogana

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    I've tried this, Sadly Emboar just does not have the stats to really stand up to what it needs to.
  3. Zephyr Dragon Lord

    Zephyr Dragon Lord

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    I faced a Trick Room team today, and this sounds like it would really shine there. You'll probably want a Life Orb and Magic Guard for that purpose, to ensure Emboar can make the most out of the limited time.

    The lower tiers can often shine brightly in these OMs, but you need a little... creativity to bring them to their fullest. Often, people dislike some of those that are lower down for one big reason, and fixing said reason is completely possible in something like this.
    For an example, Parasect.
    Well, it's completely awful, on first appearance, sporting more weaknesses than you can shake a stick at. However, it has access to the powerful Spore, a 100% accurate sleep move. ...But Parasect is slow as molasses. So it's going to be a challenge to put something to sleep and use that attack stat.

    But we can fix that... with Prankster.

    Parasect @ Leftovers
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Leech Life
    - Spore
    - Substitute
    - Leech Seed/Seed Bomb/Aromatherapy

    Well... Parasect is not something that I recommend you actually use, but for something with 2 common 4X weaknesses, it actually has a surprising amount of utility. Spore guarantees something sleeps... excepting Magic Bounce and Grass types, most of which don't want to be near Parasect. And this way, Parasect can actually do something. And feel free to (not) use this, because Parasect is still second banana to Breloom... who is usually ditched in favor of Katarna.

    (Yes, I know we didn't solve all of Parasect's problems, but this solves the biggest one... what else was I supposed to do when the randomizer hands me a Paras as the first example?)
  4. frogstomperful

    frogstomperful

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    I edited the Emboar set to serve a Trick Room team. And that Parasect set looks delightful; I love Parasect because its 'dex entries can be so creepy.
  5. EchoGaia

    EchoGaia formerly MaximeLopunny

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    This set could be good, but the nerf of Prankster means that Dark types won't mind Spore and Leech Seed, sure you have Leech Life, but i think Breloom is better in that role due to having a better typing, better offensive stats, better speed and resisting BOTH Tyranitar's STAB moves. I would definetely prefer Breloom (even if it lacks Aromatherapy). Parasect is just...too slow and weak for that to work.

    Breloom @ Leftovers
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Spore
    - Leech Seed
    - Subsitute
    - Drain Punch / Focus Punch

    The 3 first moves are mandatory and part of Breloom's utility set. The choice between Drain Punch and Focus Punch is a matter of additional recovery through Drain Punch while packing good power, and Focus Punch to hit very hard if you had a substitute up. Those two moves share a same aim though, smashing opposing Dark types that would love having a free switch in due to their immunity to Prankster moves.

    Sure you miss on Grass types and Magic Bouncers that have a Fighting resistance (or immunity) but that's about all.

    I used that set in Gen 6 and works very well (of course Prankster immunity wasn't an issue at that time), and it also stops Speed Boosters in their tracks if they aren't Dark or Grass typed (and if they are Dark type, they could be smashed by a Fighting STAB move that hurt coming off Breloom base 130 Attack).
  6. darksylvion

    darksylvion

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    Ye, generally I find prankster spore and shenanigans predictable as fuck, but right now it is pretty much the only way offense deals with all kind of speed boosters, so yeah these are kind of useful. But the thing is the dark nerf doesn't hurt prankster, there aren't many viable dark sweepers, except maybe hoopa but even that prefers being a wallbreaker, but psychic surge itself. This anti-priority is a big fuck you to it's face and not many could do much much about that.

    Anyways, since bisharp is in the core for CLC now, I thought of a cool psychic spam check, thought I'd share with you.
    [​IMG]
    Bisharp @ Life Orb
    Ability: Bulletproof
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Pursuit
    - Knock Off
    - Sucker Punch
    - Iron Head
    I have tried it on ladder only, but seriously it works like weavile works for stall in OU, since most psychics except victini only have focus blast to hit darks, what happens when you take it away! (I even forced one guy who cteamed me to run hp fighting :) )
    Yeah you get it, it traps the shit out of most psychic spammers and bisharps raw power means it isn't a sitting duck either.
  7. EchoGaia

    EchoGaia formerly MaximeLopunny

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    That's the set i use currently on the ladder, while it lacks the punch of the TC or Adapt sets, it can trap almost all Ghost and Psychic types (the only ones it misses are Chandelure, Victini, Malamar and Delphox if i'm not wrong and all would hate taking a Sucker Punch anyways) It's really working and i enjoy this set.
  8. Zephyr Dragon Lord

    Zephyr Dragon Lord

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    Prankster is pretty predictable, yes. Hence why you don't usually see me use Prankster.
    This Bisharp set is pretty cool, though.

    Bisharp @ Black Glasses
    Ability: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Knock Off
    - Swords Dance
    - Sucker Punch
    - Iron Head

    Magic Bounce Dark types are great, and especially so if they can set up in front of the opposing lead! Not too many Hazard setters are prepared to deal with a Bisharp in their face, so feel free to abuse this face, and take that time to start a sweep. As an incredible bonus, it can't be burned, except by Mold Breaker. The simulation will warn you about Mold Breaker, so if they send one in, you know they're going to do something to poor Bisharp. It's also vulnerable to Triage Drain Punch...


    Also, why would I suggest Trick Room without some solid setters?

    Necrozma @ Leftovers/Psychium Z/Terrain Extender
    Ability: Psychic Surge
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Psychic/Prismatic Laser
    - Dark Pulse
    - Trick Room
    - Morning Sun

    Necrozma is incredibly powerful under Psychic Terrain, and is pretty slow, meaning it is good at setting up Trick Room, and then abusing it. While it is worse right now with the Core Laddering Challenge requiring a Bisharp, it's still a powerful force if you manage to remove Dark types...

    Magearna @ Leftovers
    Ability: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Trick Room
    - Flash Cannon
    - Fleur Cannon
    - Volt Switch

    ...And nothing does that quite as well as Magearna. You've seen most of this before, and Quiet nature is also an option to smack around whatever you want after the Trick Room has been set, as well as being powerful, even if you're Taunted at the time. There's more setters than this, so experiment to find what really suits you!
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
    EchoGaia likes this.
  9. EchoGaia

    EchoGaia formerly MaximeLopunny

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    i prefer bulletproof on Bisharp cause like my team is really weak to Alakazam and sometimes its encore set messes up my Snorlax, so it's good to have a trapper that can remove it any time.

    But it might work for other teams i guess. Thanks for sharing with us buddy.

    If i was a council member a phletora of abilities would have been already quickbanned or suspected.

    Among them: Speed Boost, Stamina.
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
    Zephyr Dragon Lord likes this.
  10. Lcass4919

    Lcass4919 The Xatu Warrior

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    actually, no they wouldn't. just so people will stop constantly asking why speed boost and a bunch of shit is still in the tier, im going to set a few things straight so hopefully you guys will understand my situation and stop complaining:

    1) to quickban something, the entire council needs to agree its beyond saving without a sliver of a doubt, and should be removed immediately. simple enough right? well, sometimes not the entire council is HERE to listen. and sometimes people may disagree. if someone disagrees, well tough luck, it ain't being quickbanned.

    2) due to a new rule, we can only have one OM suspect at a time. this new rule was placed so people can actually participate in the suspects. so yes. if speed boost cant be quickbanned, you are estimating around a month waiting time before we can suspect something. also majority wins, if 3 people out of the 5 disagree, then a suspect can occur, if 3 disagree, well you aint suspecting it.

    3) there has to be a wait time before each of these quickbans+suspects. why? well the meta should adapt before we go on a banning spree. we cannot ban shit just because we don't feel like stopping them. the meta has to adjust so we can see if these new problems are a result of the mon, or the lack of proper teambuilding to accomodate for the new meta.

    i know speed boost needs to go. i know that. but with these three rules, im stuck at a impasse that only time can solve. im sorry for being rude, but please bear with me here, im trying my best to get this solved.
  11. Zephyr Dragon Lord

    Zephyr Dragon Lord

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    I thank you for your work here...though I still have a few questions here.

    1.) Do you think we could possibly have 1 suspect per week, and allow two of them to go at once? I think the big reason that everything's hectic around the OMs is that we don't have too much flexibility regarding time. It's okay if you can't implement this, just giving a suggestion that might ease the issue.

    2.) What are the council's thoughts on the ability Triage? While I think that it does keep Speed Boost at bay (to a degree; Alolan-Maowak is resistant to pretty much all recovery), it's also a crazy ability in its own right. I personally think a suspect with Speed Boost would be nice, due to the previous point...

    3.) By a wait time, do you mean each individual OM, or the OMs as a whole?

    4.) The council might also want to take another look at Poison Heal down the road, if that hasn't happened already. It still creates some scary defensive things out of nowhere.

    While there's quite a few broken things running around, AAA is not unplayable, like it would be were Water Bubble still allowed. We can afford to wait a while for everything to settle... And while we wait, we can further work out what needs to be suspected, and how good every ability is.
  12. tegrof19

    tegrof19

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    As a whole, but all of BH, 1v1, and aaa are queue'd for suspects rn, and stabmons would be as well but the council has rightfully decided council quickbanning while they have the ladder is the way to go.
  13. Lcass4919

    Lcass4919 The Xatu Warrior

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    1) unfortunately no. as tegrof said, its OM's as a whole, so unfortunately while id like to hog up all the suspect time, im not able too :P(enless you mean OM suspects in a whole, as a similar method has been compromised so it wont be as bad.)

    2) triage is personally not that big of an issue to me, most of the abusers arent really that notable, and most can be stopped by fluffy or unaware defensively, or bulky mons or dazzle/psychic terrain offensively, helps that theres only 3 common triage types (grass, fighting, and bug) and all three arent really "Great" typings. of course, if they prove to be a problem later on when most of the bigger issues are gone, we will definitely look into it!

    4) yes, definitely. though i dont know if we will end up looking at the 3 "Worse" scenario-mons (zyggy, cune and lax) or maybe look at PH as a whole, it all depends on what the council, community, and me personally want. its not the biggest issue, but i can see problems arising in the future. (Especially since lax is still just as good as before!)

    sorry for flipping out in my last post. its just been a bit frustrating being in a standstill, and having everyone treat me like i don't know what i'm doing lol. i even hinted to you guys that i was suspecting speed boost (a couple posts when i said you will have to wait and see for speed boost suspect i made some letters a bit lighter then the rest) though i guess it wasn't that obvious.
    Zephyr Dragon Lord likes this.
  14. Lcass4919

    Lcass4919 The Xatu Warrior

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    Another god damn double post for me, but this is pretty important.

    Speed Boost is now banned from Almost Any Ability.

    Im sorry for it taking so long.

    The Immortal
  15. EchoGaia

    EchoGaia formerly MaximeLopunny

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    Thank You Lcass and sorry if i was in a rush time these days, sometimes i forget you do your best for us. Will you forgive me?

    On the other hand i'm glad it's finally out of the picture.

    Just a post to say that i finally made a team that could grant me so winning with the core laddering challenge. It's tough due to Victini and Bisharp not having that great synergy together.

    Hope i'll make those 1300.
  16. Zephyr Dragon Lord

    Zephyr Dragon Lord

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    Well, it looks like one of the major problems are out of the way. I understand the council as a whole is working hard to find stuff that's not ideal, and I wholly respect that.

    Also, what I wasn't suggesting wasn't just for AAA. That would be a tad selfish. The week would be for all OMs that want suspects. Those that had them further away would have priority over OMs that just had suspects. If none of the other metas need a suspect, then the most recent OM could have a suspect. Sorry that it wasn't clear from the getgo.

    As for Poison Heal... sure, we have Snorlax, Zygarde, and Suicune returning, but we also have Buzzwole and Tapu Fini, and together, they form the 5 main ones. (Maybe Buzzwole doesn't count, but that defense is kind of sky-high, and is pretty tough to break physically..) We also have a ton of others that can fill the role (Lati twins, Swampert, Necrozma, Uxie, etc), and also do a fine job at being stallers. I agree that it's under control at the moment, thanks to all the wallbreakers we have.

    Victini and Bisharp are better as an offensive than a defensive core. There's not just one way to take it; but it is limiting for teambuilding... kind of the point of a challenge. And one that taught me how devastating Victini is.
  17. Lcass4919

    Lcass4919 The Xatu Warrior

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    so, with speed boost gone, i guess this team is gunna lose some viability, but i guess its time to showcase some mons ive been using on it that has been putting in crazy work.
    Magearna @ Fairium Z
    Ability: Tinted Lens
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Fleur Cannon
    - Trick Room
    - Flash Cannon
    - Volt Switch/explosion/idkineverusethisslot
    this thing...just...wow...i put it on mostly for its defensive utility, but in all honesty, its been getting the most KO's out of my entire team. works great even as a standalone, simply trick room up, nuke something with twinkle tackle, then fleur cannon something else. this thing is NOT to be underestimated. helps that people immidiately go into their steels to tank this things hits...just to feel...this:
    252+ SpA Tinted Lens Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 248-294 (62.3 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Tinted Lens Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 166-196 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Tinted Lens Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Marowak-Alola: 280-330 (86.4 - 101.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Tinted Lens Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 296-348 (79.5 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    honestly, a mon i expected to do one thing for my team, and i eventually realized just what its capable of doing even for a NON TR orientated team.anyways, heres one of the mons ive been using a LOT, that only gets buffed in TR:

    Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
    Ability: Stakeout
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
    Brave Nature
    IVs: 0 Spe
    - Flare Blitz
    - Shadow Bone
    - Bonemerang
    - Power-Up Punch

    rule #1) you will not live this things attacks on switch in. nothing. fluffy gets demolished by fire coverage+shadow bones lack of contact, and a lot of walls just succumb to this things raw power...and even if it doesnt switch.

    252+ Atk Thick Club Huge Power Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 288-339 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

    252+ Atk Thick Club Huge Power Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 249-294 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  18. EchoGaia

    EchoGaia formerly MaximeLopunny

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    Steakout Alolanroak sounds crazy as fuck, god i didn't face it while i was laddering... I guess people doesn't know.

    Here comes a Flash Fire Staraptor XD Nah jokes aside, it looks pretty damn good.

    By the way if i could receive some advice on that set:

    Hoopa-Unbound @ Life Orb
    Ability: Protean
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hyperspace Hole
    - Ice Punch
    - Drain Punch

    I put the four moves that for me offers the biggest coverage avialable, with hyperspace hole able to hit through Substitutes, maybe it needs changes i dunno. Also on the Evs too, the spread doesn't look that good for a mixed attacker, maybe i should tweak them, but dunno how much for each one...
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
  19. aki0s

    aki0s

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    I haven't seen anyone mentioning this yet, so:

    [​IMG]

    Tapu Fini @ Toxic Orb
    Ability: Poison Heal
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Scald
    - Haze / Calm Mind
    - Defog / Protect
    - Protect / Moonblast / Taunt

    PH-Tapu Fini is really good. It checks a lot of things & has respectable mixed bulk. It's probably not much better than Suicune as a PH calm mind'er, but its nice as it packs hazard control in addition to a pretty nice typing defensively. I've been using it with volt absorb spdef Celesteela for a nice defensive core that handles most things.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2016
  20. darksylvion

    darksylvion

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    Though protean hoopa-u sounds pretty cool, but isn't like always tinted set better. Like tinted banded hyperspace fury destroys and basically 2hkoes everything, and specially since it doesn't make contact it easily 2hkoes fluffy skarm. Also tbh, you get better coverage by psychic/dark pulse/focus blast/ and maybe thunderbolt for mandibuzz. This lets you abuse STAB focus blast, which is incredibly strong, 2hkoing chansey as well as lax. Also you can run destiny bond to fuck with curselax while it sets up curses next turn, you can just hit it with STAB focus blast lol.
    252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 188 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 491-580 (96.6 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO [Though unreliable, it's incredibly strong]
    252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 351-413 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Thunderbolt vs. 240 HP / 216+ SpD Mandibuzz: 398-468 (94.5 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
    Ye that set is hot, I have faced that set against some other players too, it's the reason I started running desolate land colbur victini ;). Though victini's real potential is actually coming out, now that it's in the spotlight lmao.
    I am going to have a drink to celebrate this :D
    david0895 and aki0s like this.
  21. motherlove

    motherlove

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    You're missing on Taunt thought which is, for me, one of Tapu Fini's biggest selling points. Shutting down phasing mons, opposing set up, opposing taunt and unaware recovery and just offering great utility overall.
  22. darksylvion

    darksylvion

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    Taunt is nice on fini, but haze + defog together do that same thing basically + they don't get fucked up by random magic bounce. Only thing taunt is superior in, is to shut down opposing recovery though, but at that point you better use some wall-breaker instead imo.
    aki0s likes this.
  23. motherlove

    motherlove

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    I mean taunt on the set up set. Scald / CM / Tect / Taunt.
    darksylvion likes this.
  24. aki0s

    aki0s

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    Sure. I'll edit it in. I prefer Moonblast to actually be able to hit deso-land / opposing waters or dragons - which is why I put it there.
  25. aesf

    aesf outskilled

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    Stall is far too good in the metagame right now, and something needs to be done. So here's a really long post so that I look smart:
    The current metagame is essentially composed of teams that are stall, teams that are centered around beating stall, and teams that get 6-0'd by stall. If you've faced any somewhat competent using a stall team, you'll know that these teams are basically impossible to break right now. This isn't just one of those typical "stall is too good pls nerf" complaints; unless you dedicate your team to stallbreaking or use stall yourself, you will lose to stall.

    Fluffy: Let's first look at the structure of stall: nearly all stall teams have a chansey as a special wall, and due to chansey's ridiculous bulk, a stall builder only has to consider a small handful of special attackers that chansey does not wall, most of which can be covered within one pokemon, which gets even easier when you consider that chansey gets unaware in AAA and that regenvesters have almost no drawback. The rest of the stall team tends to be centered around physical walls and general utility pokemon, and this part is usually also the weaker part. More often than not, this section of the team will contain poison heal pokemon, magic bouncers, defoggers, phasers, and status users, which can be pretty difficult to fit into 4 pokemon. At the same time, these 4 pokemon also usually ensure that the other two special walls don't fall prey to hazards or status, strengthening the team on the special side as well. Needless to say, it's basically impossible to build a perfect stall team with that formula, and nearly impossible to even approximate perfection.
    As for teams of other playstyles, they need to have some formula to beat stall, or else they usually end up losing pretty badly. Most of the time, due to the aforementioned strength of stall from the special side, these teams utilize physical attackers and gradually whittle the team down, because the team by then is nearly impossible to break from the special side.
    Now meet fluffy - an ability that basically doubles defense from the physical side (except from certain attacks*). Fluffy turns some of the strongest pokemon in AAA, such as dragonite and lucario, into absolute jokes, as pokemon such as mandibuzz take absolutely nothing from boosted attacks. This results in one pokemon being able to take on a majority of the physical metagame, as there simply is not as much need for multiple layers of physical walls like before. If you need calcs for the sake of satisfaction, calc any physical attacker against any fluffy wall of your choice and you'll see how ridiculous this ability is.
    Most of you can see where I'm going with this: fluffy is essentially another "chansey" for the physical side; rather than forcing multiple pokemon to patch up the physical side of stall, you can just slap on a very bulky fluffy physical wall, and account for its weaknesses within another pokemon. This leaves you two extra slots to do whatever you want, and this added versatility is another part of what makes stall so devastating. Before fluffy, stall had trouble making room for a magic bouncer or a dugtrio, but now, adding at least one of these is cost-free and only beneficial and can patch up any holes that the physical and special core left open.
    And even on balance or bulky offense teams, fluffy is a pretty much no-drawback option that can completely swing the momentum. It nearly turns all offensive momentum upside down, as most physical attackers become near useless, and fluffy users, unlike chansey, typically carry phasing, switching moves, or attacks that can actually be threatening (like foul play or knock off). Meanwhile, these pokemon can give free switchins to their threats which can obliterate offense due to the presence of multiple other unbalanced abilities in the metagame.
    If I'm not playing with stall, why should I add a hoopa or any wallbreaker if I know it's going to get trapped by weavile or dugtrio? Why should I run non-mold breaker rocks+spikes as a way to beat stall if I know that basically all stall can afford to run magic bounce now? Is it really a good idea to add Kartana or Lucario or any physical attacker that I feel like using if I know I'm going to lose all momentum against balance and stall teams with fluffy? Fluffy pushes stall way over the top, and it needs to see a ban if the metagame needs to become any healthier. Evidence of this includes the fact that 4 out of the top 5 ladder players use stall, and trying to prepare for and win against stall teams in the current metagame is near impossible.
    *Some people have been arguing that there are ways around fluffy. Yes. There are ways around fluffy. Some viable ways around it from pure physical attackers are fire punch, v-create, sacred fire, stone edge, earthquake, seed bomb, and icicle crash. Yes, you can use these moves. But no, this doesn't change just how much fluffy compresses stall teambuilding. It's much, much, easier to cover the primary users of these moves (victini, weavile, entei, mamoswine, terrakion, garchomp, kyurem-b, hoopa) within a couple pokemon (for ex. dugtrio and tapu fini covers almost all) than covering all physical attackers within just 1 more pokemon, and the team with fluffy will almost always have much more useful utility pokemon than the team without. The end result is a stall that ends up being nigh unbreakable from the physical side, nigh unbreakable from the special side, and immune to any non-standard stallbreaker that can get out of hand. If you're saying fluffy isn't broken because intimidate basically does the same thing and wasn't broken, that's like saying 6th gen parental bond wasn't broken [on physical attackers] because huge power was stronger. If you're saying fluffy's not as broken as fur coat so we shouldn't ban it, well, I don't think rayquaza would be as broken as mega rayquaza in OU, but that doesn't mean we should free rayquaza. Whatever the case, fluffy makes stall (and even balance) too strong and eliminates far too much of the metagame, and it needs to be banned.
    tl;dr fluffy's broken just read it lol it doesnt take that long if u sincerely care about competitive almost any ability

    some other needed future suspects: Poison Heal, Protean, Hoopa-U, Stakeout/Illusion, Dragonite, Kyurem-B - someone else can write these up

    Poison Heal: similar to "the fluffy effect", but made even worse given the emergence of 1k arrows zygarde, and it's still good on everything else. Draw-free, extremely potent, and breaks a ton of pokemon, esp. Suicune/Snorlax/Zygarde
    Protean: too much power.
    Hoopa-U: see above
    Stakeout/Illusion: Don't see this suspect happening soon, but give it time and it will need to happen. The ability to just get rid of counters for free and/or force your opponent to sac counters to other pokemon is too good.
    Dragonite: espeed game too strong, versatility game too strong, too much power
    Kyurem-B: too much power
    Chloe, FĂ­rnen, Illusio and 10 others like this.

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