Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
everybody in this thread has stated multiple times good counters so the term dense actually fits you quite nicely.
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Almost Any Ability XY (Suspect Over: Weavile banned, Keldeo Stays)
- Thread starter Monte Cristo
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i dont know if you noticed, but other than stall i argumented that every other counter was ineffective..
Pikachuun
the entire waruda machine
Stating that you can easily switch out to a counter of the counter reinforces the counter being effective statement...
throughout the whole thing i never stated that suicune didn't have a counter to itself alone, i've always stated that it doesn't have a counter that is competitive against the rest of the AAA tier
if it was 1v1 i wouldn't think suicune should be banned, but if you put a pokemon on the team that needs a counter so specific that your opponent could just as well play with 5 pokemon against every other team on the tier it should be banned.
water absorb and storm drain would be an excelent counter to suicune 1v1, but show me a well rounded offensive team (because i actually conceded that stall is a good counter to cune but it shouldn't be the only option) with a pokemon with such a useless ability..
You're calling water absorb/storm drain a useless ability? Correct me if im wrong, but... lots of pokemon appreciate the buff. Water absorb helps things like heatran, rhyperior, excadrill, etc, completely shut down bulky water types, rain teams, and scald spammers (which eliminates half their main counters) as well as getting a small form of recovery all in one ability. It keeps the other player from using water type attacks as freely, and you could even run an illusion pokemon to take advantage of that. The point is, immunities are very useful in most situations, as long as you play with them correctly.
Wait, hold up. How does Unaware Manaphy lose to CroCune?
252+ SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 39-47 (9.6 - 11.6%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage
Using that spread for Manaphy, and assuming max damage rolls each and every time for Suicune, and Manaphy switches into an awake Suicune's Scald, Manaphy has a 100% chance to KO or force out Suicune, while tanking as many scalds that Cune can throw at it with ease. You already had a counter on your team, if you change the EV spread, you're golden.
it's not entirely useless, but i run offensive teams, not bulky teams, and for an offensive team, it doesn't make a lot of sense..
it makes sense in a bulky team that can take the hits of the other pokemon that will come up..
my whole point in this whole thing, is that has only stall as counter, so it isn't fair game with offensive users..
not because it doesn't have a counter alone, but because when you build a team around it, it's only beatable with stall
unaware manaphy can take it 1 on 1 but it's not competitive enough to take on a lot of the pokemon in AAA, so when manaphy comes up suicune will switch out and the rest of the team will take down manaphy before it can take down cune..
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Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Unaware manaphy takes on zard X,weavile, keldeo (if def invested) v-create spamming victini and others
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
The point trying to be made here is tha cune destroys heavy offense. so what beats crocune on heavy offense? Answer that and maybe this conversation will get somewhere instead of going in circles with everybody saying virtually the same things in different ways over and over. Really you guys seem to not be able to progress a conversation and there is really no point to keep arguing until you answer your opponents argument. What viable pokemon on heavy offense beat unaware suicune?
remember one counter doesnt mean that its not broken as unless there are multiple counters its overcentralizing and you can just use cune and a counter to its counter.
remember one counter doesnt mean that its not broken as unless there are multiple counters its overcentralizing and you can just use cune and a counter to its counter.
What I propose is that we change the Kyurem-B ban into a refrigirate kyurem-b ban so that we can destroy suicune with our guts or choice banded kyurem. That way, we would have a solid counter to suicune and offense gets another fun little thing to mess around with. (also we can stop this argument)
EDIT: off the subject, but can we give aegislash a new ability? I herd that stance change was hard-coded to him, but I want to make sure.
EDIT: off the subject, but can we give aegislash a new ability? I herd that stance change was hard-coded to him, but I want to make sure.
252hp/252+spa manaphy vs choice scarf 252sp/252+att drought victiny (v-create spamming victiny)
252+ Atk Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 260-306 (64.3 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - bolt strike
252+ SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini in Sun: 116-140 (34 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - scald
so no, manaphy can't take victiny
tinted lens weavile can take it down with 2 or 3 hits and, most importantly, taking it's leftovers off if it gets killed before killing.
nobody runs megazard x on AAA..
and you're talking about offensive pokemon which will not be in a stall set with crocune in it
manaphy can't kill regen goodra, unaware celebi, perish trap dusclops, mega venusaur, drought heatran, unaware/magic guard lati,any zapdos, protean dragonite, even prankster breloom.. i'm not even remembering half of the most used stall team pokemon here
so if you put unaware cune next to any of these pokemon on your team one of the few possible counters for it that is manaphy is down in the drain.
you list 3 pokemon that manaphy may kill and call it competitive.. that's far from "destroying" any argument here..
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Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
tinted lens weavile is god awful, the only viable and suspect worthy weavile is refridgerate weavile which I plan on suspecting
I said spamming v-create as in switching into v-create, plus most scarftini are mold breaker or magnet pull. now oyu see why my dense comment makes sense?
I'm going to stop now because you guys obviously don't get the point and are living in a deluded fantasy where heavy offense must always be viable and nobody can counter unaware suicune. end story
You know how you can deal with Suicune? Storm Drain, Dry Skin, Water Absorb remember those, none of my teams have a hard time with Suicune, mostly because I can PP stall him to death but if you really have that big of a problem the abilities above are useful, if the Suicune runs Ice Beam it doesn't run either Sleep Talk or Calm Mind who make Suicune a boxing bag or just a tank that can't kill much because 4 Sp.Atk investment isn't that amazing, there are things that pose bigger threats to heavy offense than just Suicune, any Regen Core with a wish passer and a Unaware mon in the middle also shuts down most teams even if the mon isn't Suicune.
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
what on offense can run them and be good mons. You guys havent made a single educated argument in the past 3 hours. However you are right on about one thing, and that is that there are more broken things than cune in stall atm. In fact stall is so broken in this tier it vastly outclasses every other playstyle by an insane amount.
So i have spent the past week or so lurking and studying this metagame. I watched battle after battle on showdown to figure out the meta. I made a major attempt to only watch high ladder, extremely skilled players. And despites the low numbers of high ladder battles, here is what i found.
after watching a total of 44 battles...18 of them were in between 100 and 200 turns. and even worse, 15 were above 200. also there were 0 battles that were under 61 turns. also all but two battles were between full stall teams. Yeah this is really bad.
Stall needs nerfing or offense needs buffing. I will say this, and thats offense attracts new players. Stall is more complicated than offense and you dont let people get a running start in new metagames by forcing them to spend 2 hours playing maybe 3 battles if they are lucky. You dont get positive attention, and the tier really isint fun. This is a simple concept, it shouldnt be like freaking BH but right now teambuilding if anything is more complicated. So really, i dont see this and none of you have said that offense is a viable playstyle. And im sorry, having semi or full stall being the only viable strategies doesnt make a diverse, fun meta. after watching all of those battles i have no interest in using many of the broken stall threats because it is stale as fuck. In fact i finished watching battles yesterday morning and was so sick of the redundancy i thought about just throwing it away. Part of what makes stall fun and fresh is trying to beat offense, its so much more than spamming attacks. It is also neigh impossible to counter every offensive threat, no matter what something will give you a problem. Here thats all out the window. Offense doesnt exist making every battle redundant and boring. When offense does show up it isint a challenge either, stall is so brokenly powerful nothing relevant has any chance of breaking it anyways, making stall an easy playstyle that requires unrealistic time investments to completely destroy all the fun from the meta. may i say that during my tests i found the exact same team 3 times by 3 different people. not alts, common players. slight differences but literally like 5 or 6 of the same pokes. Why play a meta thats supposed to be creative when the entire meta is the same. This meta is becoming redundant due to one settled, developed strategy that is broken in nearly every way. I really dont understand how blissfully unaware you people are but to be honest i dont really care anymore. None of you seem to want to admit you are wrong because you are either blind or are so selfish and arrogant you only want what you enjoy to exist in this meta. if i had stabmons it would be like me saying "I dont like sableye its banned" or "I like sylveon so it will stay unbanned" or even indirectly "aerilate gives my team a problem so i am going to ban it". That i feel is literally what is happening here. BTW i am not saying anything about aerilate being banned here. It was an example. The next time somebody comes in and says "offense doesnt have to be viable" i am going to kick them in the throat since that is what they are doing to this meta.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
we have a billion metas where offense is top tier by a mile yet we can't have a single meta where offense is possible but stall is just easier to use? bias at its finest, now time to write my essay long post on why you're incorrect incase you're still going tommorow.
Having trouble with stall to the point where you feel the need to whine that it's the only playstyle?
Sounds like you need a nice wall breaker!
Listed below are 4 viable Pokemon that can cleanly 2HKO at least 3 of the 4 most prominent physical walls (Skarmory, Regirock, Cresselia, Suicune) from the physical side of the spectrum:
1. Heracross
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 208-247 (62.2 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 317-374 (87 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 463-546 (104.2 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 237-281 (58.6 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
2. Bisharp
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 382-452 (94.5 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (Can break PH Cune, but not unaware without prior damage)
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 374-442 (84.2 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 208-250 (57.1 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 338-398 (101.1 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
3. Rampardos
252+ Atk Life Orb Magic Guard Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 242-285 (72.4 - 85.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 274-324 (67.8 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 181-214 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rampardos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 161-192 (44.2 - 52.7%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rampardos Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 192-229 (52.7 - 62.9%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 265-313 (59.6 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4. Terrakion
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 198-234 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery - LO Terrak falls short on cress, however if rocks are up his odds increase significantly:
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 198-234 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 83.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 216-255 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 322-385 (88.4 - 105.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 244-289 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
These aren't exactly hard to find. If you would quit complaining about stall and look at the power adaptability attackers have in this tier you wouldn't need to waste everyone's time by making biased statements here. Quite frankly I find it absurd these aren't being commonly used already.
I haven't even covered special wallbreakers or more importantly shadow tag gothitelle either.
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now THAT is a good argument against suicune being broken. I mean, at least it shows that stall isn't the only option.
Heracross and bisharp seem like a great option actually. Rampardos and terrakion would take a lot of damage from a boosted scald but still good options.
I could argue that keldeo can cover for cune against bisharp and staraptor for heracross, but for the first time i've heard an intelligent argument against my complaint.
I mean, Monte Cristo was trying to win this with spell checking..
HAHAHAHAHAHA THAT'S THE COOLEST THING ANYONE'S EVER MENTIONED IN AAA
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Are we obligated to show facts that should actually be common knowledge just to win an idiotic argument? You have been complaining on and on about how broken Unaware Suicune is with misguided logic. Let's just say Suicune basically auto-wins vs offense every time, does that make it broken? As a matter of fact, in standard metagames, Gothitelle auto-wins against almost all stall teams. Should Gothitelle be banned just because of this? I know you're offended, but try to understand, your points are almost complete conjecture to us, no offense.
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first of all, if you fail to present arguments against an argument how stupid can it be?
second, what should be banned?? If a pokemon is so strong it auto wins against every strategy in a battlestyle, shouldn't it be banned?? Gothitelle can't win against aegislash, which is an often used pokemon in stall teams (at least in ou, i don't know all the metas you're talking about), but if it cripples inequivocably a whole battlestyle of course it should be banned.
The point i was trying to make with cune was that.
kl4ng proved i was at least partially wrong, if not entirely, since there are at least 3 or 4 viable counters in heavy offense, but insulting my grammar (while making grotesque english mistakes, actually) won't help your case in calling me stupid.
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- Gothitelle has Shadow Tag, so there's really no way you could repeatedly predict the Goth switch and prevent it from exterminating your team with Aegislash every single time.
- Are you implying that Suicune wins against every strategy?
- You shouldn't take insults in the internet so hard.
- Just because something cripples an entire playstyle doesn't mean it should be banned.
This, so much this, if your team isn't ready to take on Suicune you need to change it, xJownage says that Monte Cristo bans pokemon if they do well against his team, but that is exactly what you are asking him to do, ban Suicune because you can't handle him, if this was regular Ou I would be with you but we have 3 ways to completely and utterly shut down Suicune and every pokemon can have them, he is a mono attacker set up sweepr like every other and I would say in AAA it is much, much easier to counter him, never before anybody complained about him, even after Aerilate was banned, I run a balanced team and I don't have any problem with Suicune, Dry Skin Rhyperior is taken down? switch to Blissey, Blissey is down? Switch to unware latias and phase him out, both of them are down well I should have played better and even then as long has I don't let Suicune set up freely I can revenge kill with a Specs Thunder from Thundurus. You just need to learn how to deal with threats like in every other meta.
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I will happily oblige!
Wallbreaker POWER!
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 329-388 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 494-582 (135.7 - 159.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Ursaring Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 486-572 (109.4 - 128.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Just take out all of the unaware mons first and unburden sitrus berry belly drum ursaring will kill everything!
And before I get into special wallbreakers, (trust me, they exist) could someone tell me the best special walls? I have 0 experience in stall (and little in AAA in general), so I have no idea.
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