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Metagame Almost Any Ability

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Laxpras, Nov 26, 2016.

  1. Semako

    Semako

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    373
    That's no counterplay too - mold breaker would simply be OHKOed. And apart from that one combination of prankster baton pass mew and magic bounce lati@s there's really no point of using Mold Breaker on a defensive skarmory, especially when it isn't the (main) entry hazard support for the team.
  2. Quantum Tesseract

    Quantum Tesseract Imasugu
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    There are several things you can do. First off, you can prevent setup; KO the mew, taunt it, trickscarf it, etc. Secondly, you can deal with the boosts; Haze, Clear Smog, Dragon Tail, Heart Swap, Circle throw, Mold Breaker/Entrainment+Whirlwind/Roar. Third, you can KO them, either Latias or Mew. This is where stronger attackers come in; something like Hustle Hoopa-U or Kartana or Golisopod. In particular, boosting sweepers will be handy here, as they can set up alongside mew and thus 2hko the recipient even after they baton pass.
    Semako and david0895 like this.
  3. Fardin

    Fardin

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    i was about the finish the best stall ever but when i tried to use it on ladd, it said that Shedinja is actually banned in AAA for some reason...is it on purpose or just some error?
  4. Zephyr Dragon Lord

    Zephyr Dragon Lord

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    Remember Balanced Hackmons....?

    Yeah. It gets access to Sturdy. That's why Shedinja is banned, and why Shedinja stall in AAA is never going to exist (unless the higher-ups say otherwise). Also, complex bans are usually not implemented, so this is intentional, and very unlikely to be reversed.
    thesecondbest and Funbot28 like this.
  5. Fardin

    Fardin

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    Removing such a great poke just cause of 1 broken ability on it seems like such a waste...eh..:/
  6. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Well unless ur implying that we should ban Shedinja + Sturdy (which has been ingraved in our doctrine to not perform complex bans), then there isn't rlly much we can do besides banning Sheddy since Sturdy ain't broken on anything else besides our ghost cicada.
  7. Laxpras

    Laxpras You don't want zero problems big fella

    Joined:
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    AAA Open + Keldeo Quickban Announcement
    [​IMG]
    First off, the AAA Open has started, you can sign up here! http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-almost-any-ability-open-sign-ups.3598432/

    Moving to Keldeo, it has practically no switch-ins due to its typing, access to Secret Sword, and disregard of opponents typing given by Tinted Lens. These are all the reasons Keldeo was banned last gen, and nothing has changed this gen to change how Keldeo plays in the meta. Tapu Fini is 2HKOd by Hydro Pump, and RegenVests like Magearna get 2HKOd by Secret Sword. On top of that, Keldeo has a great speed tier which makes it a top threat against offense.

    I understand quickbanning is a little unfortunate this late in the meta, but our (the council's) hands are tied by timing. Since only one OM may have a suspect open up at a time, the AAA open is starting, and we want to do a different suspect (more on this in a second), we are not able to suspect Keldeo, and we want to ensure this is gone before the AAA open so teams are not forced to run Desolate Land Ghost types.

    We will be suspecting Kartana in the very near future, when Mix and Mega is finished with their suspect. Kartana boasts very similar prowess as Keldeo, only being limited by its typing and lack of access to a move that does damage on a mixed attack basis. On one hand, Kartana's 181atk, access to Swords Dance with Tinted Lens, and its speed, make it an overwhelming threat in the meta. On the other hand, an argument could be made that the already high prevalence of defensive backbones like Skarmory, Celesteela, or Doublade, as well as the trapping effect of Magnet Pull, can leave Kartana ineffective. Thus, we will leave this decision up to the community once the suspect begins, so be on the lookout for that post. Unfortunately, even if Kartana is banned, this will likely not be in place until the later rounds of the AAA open.

    The council has done our best job to make a fun meta given limitations in suspects by other OMs and the unfortunate state of the meta at the beginning of this generation, we hope everyone is enjoying AAA!
    Tagging The Immortal
  8. Laxpras

    Laxpras You don't want zero problems big fella

    Joined:
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    Dugtrio Ban + Kartana Suspect Announcement
    [​IMG]
    Although we try to stick to OU as best we can for the Pokemon banlist, we have to differ here from OU's decision to keep Dugtrio. The main reason being stall's significant prowess in AAA due to an obviously better distribution of abilities such as Unaware, Poison Heal, and Intimidate. Also, hazards are much easier to keep off the field due Magic Bounce. As such, we found Dugtrio to be the driving force that makes stall overly powerful, thus the council has decided to ban it.

    [​IMG]
    We have also decided to begin a suspect of Kartana. Kartana boasts an enormous 181atk, with a great 109 speed tier. Its poor offensive typing is disregarded by Tinted Lens, allowing it to plow through most of the meta. With Tinted Lens and Choice Band, Kartana is generally free to spam Leaf Blade and defeat any switchin, even typically bulky walls such as Zapdos and Magearna. That said, checks do exist such, as Skarmory and Magnet Pull Fire Types. Also, Kartana's paper thin defenses leave it very vulnerable to offensive teams. Since arguments can be made and the council is weary of too many quickbans, we have decided to suspect it.

    The requirements to vote are only 2700 COIL on the suspect ladder. This is a fairly low requirement, so I hope many of you will take the little bit of time required to participate.
    Estimation of how many battles you need based on your GXE (open)
    [​IMG]


    Feel free to post your opinions about Kartana at any time, regardless if you have met the reqs or not. To make your vote, please comment a screenshot of your reqs and in bold write BAN or DO NOT BAN. A 60% majority will be needed for a ban.

    Note that Kartana will be allowed on the ladder, this is a great opportunity to test your teams for OMGS!

    The suspect will end on April 5th.

    I would also like to note that we recognize all of these quickbans are not ideal. We are doing our best to create a stable, balanced meta, and we feel we are just about to reach it. AAA has been quite the rollercoaster due to all of the new additions and unbans from the beginning of the generation. We hope you understand and are enjoying the meta!

    The Immortal
  9. motherlove

    motherlove

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    Got reqs boiz.
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]

    Anyway I'll update later with thoughts n shit, I just wanted to post that for now, it's 7am and I haven't slept cause you take 15 minutes to find every game and this dude with no guard xurkitree kept sniping me on ladder.

    I also want to get more play while actually using Kartana before I make any decision.
  10. darksylvion

    darksylvion

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    Gottem reqs bois ez
    Capture.PNG
    Voting BAN
    Having laddered with a kartana team this whole suspect, man this shit is broken af. I used a webs team with kart, and with webs up literally nothing switches into leaf blade except skarm/celes/doublade or yanmega i guess :o.
    Even then celesteela gets 2hkoed by smart strike and doublade unless max defense takes a solid 45% lol. Leaving only skarm, but you have like 5 more mons so okay i g. And to stress it doesn't even need webs up most of the time, since 109 is such a solid speed tier.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2017
  11. aki0s

    aki0s

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    Oct 3, 2015
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Somehow got reqs even though I'm bad at this metagame.
    Voting: BAN

    The fact that it outspeeds most relevant fighting types and the lack of special priority in general really makes it a nuisance. Tinted lens + Scarf just cleans really, really well late game - and it's other sets are pretty hard to stop too. But mostly tinted lens / great attack / great speed tier is what borks it imo.
  12. Laxpras

    Laxpras You don't want zero problems big fella

    Joined:
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    reqs (open)
    [​IMG]

    BAN.
    Shoutout to Kl4ng for being half of my battles

    Kartana has very few checks, almost limited to Skarmory and Buzzwole, and it can easily beat these checks with support and/or Z-Moves. Nothin else need be said
  13. rozes

    rozes Tournament Banned
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    got something (open)
    [​IMG]
    yeah ban kartana, its just to fucking good with tinted lens. ive used both cb & sd steelium to some effect and they both are basically guaranteed kills every game since most defensive checks cant even reliably switch in due to to tinted lens fucking up obvious switch ins like skarm / zapdos. not really much more to add since most ppl have covered it.

    also got some more teams n_n

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    https://hastebin.com/raw/marulevoqa

    made this bc i thought the idea of spikes + cb terrak would be fun to abuse since bulky teams lack switch ins. i also wanted to try out sd kart since ive only really had experience with cb and this set seemed like the way to go. steelium seemed the way to go since you hit a lot of things harder with z steel than i thought other z moves would cover, but ive considered changing to grassium since its a lot stronger and hits relatively the same targets. mamo was rocker of choice bc i waned some more prio + elec immunity, while protean ninja is just a fast spiker that can prevent fini and sableye from defogging. thund + gar is something i use a lot to fill out teams since scarf gar hits hard as fuck + knock thund can deal with things like magearna. overally a really fun offense imo & only really weak to opposing terrak.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    https://hastebin.com/raw/oqunufelev

    someone told me to build with specs noivern so this is what i came up with. originally i had cb duggy to trap magearna but i kind of slapped on the first mag pull ground that came to mind and that was lando. its a really weird set but its been working pretty well for me in terms of trapping mag as well as annoying offense since ppl tend to expect defensive than get annoyed by fast tox + sub + max atk eq. cune + ferro gives me a hazard core to break other team with ferro getting down rocks + spikes and cune phazing. sd maro gives me a ghost + something to help vs fat teams. scarf terrak hits hard as fuck and gives me a nice revenge killer.

    mons / sets i like atm:

    [​IMG]
    Golisopod @ Leftovers
    Ability: Triage
    EVs: 196 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 56 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Leech Life
    - Liquidation
    - Aqua Jet

    giolisopod is really fucking cool atm imo since triage is so fun to abuse. its also bulky enough that you ank hits while setting up and just get all the health back. this spread is just for a bit of creep & maxing out bulk for set up. i feel this set is a bit underutilized since leech life is strong + gives it back some recovery.

    [​IMG]
    Terrakion @ Choice Band / Choice Scarf
    Ability: Adaptability
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Rock Slide
    - Quick Attack / Sacred Sword

    terrak is fucking amazing atm & in general imo. there are like little to no switch ins on bulkier teams for either set since its stab combo is unresisted for the most part. either set appreciates hazard support in terms of spikes + rocks since it makes things like buzzwole think twice before switching in.
    wishes, Quantum Tesseract, nv and 5 others like this.
  14. sin(pi)

    sin(pi) lucky n bad

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
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    667
    reqs (open)
    [​IMG]

    Ban it.
    I'd give reasoning but it's all been said above, Skarm drops to Steelium sets, swole drops to Grassium or is massively pressured by Fire types if you're not FF, and everything else dies to Band.
    nv, The Immortal, Klang and 2 others like this.
  15. Jrdn

    Jrdn

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    Dec 12, 2014
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    224
    [​IMG]


    What a terrible reqs experience. I've been pretty vocal about how much I despise Kartana, and I am happy to finally be able to put in my official 2 cents.

    The Verdict (open)
    Kartana can kiss my ass ban
    tegrof19, nv, The Immortal and 6 others like this.
  16. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Breaking hearts since '09
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    AAA Reqs.JPG

    Lol hiding my W/L cause its absolutely disgusting (hax and facing jrdn and aesf often didn't help as well).

    Voting Ban cause Kartana is too dumb and legit has no counters besides Skarm.

    Hoopa-U suspect when
    nv, The Immortal, tegrof19 and 2 others like this.
  17. Yahooboo

    Yahooboo

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    Jan 10, 2015
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    504
    IK it sucks/is useless against mons that aren't walls, but besides shed shell/ghost types, what type of wall can't this Gengar beat?
    Gengar @ Chesto Berry
    Ability: Corrosion
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Mean Look
    - Toxic
    - Skill Swap
    - Rest
  18. motherlove

    motherlove

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    Jun 4, 2014
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    Anything with a switching move (so most gengar answers), anything with whirlwind / roar, most magic bounce mons and anything that can kill gengar.

    You might want to look into either perishtrap normalize gar, perishtrap azu or whirlpool / taunt tapu fini.
  19. Yahooboo

    Yahooboo

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    Jan 10, 2015
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    please remember that
    a. it has skill swap so magic bounce can be dealt with, then rest to remove any toxic effect the wall gave it
    b. we're talking about walls. just walls. i don't know of any walls that run EQ or any other gengar killing move
    the first 2 are valid points tho, just wondering what mons like that are actually used?
  20. darksylvion

    darksylvion

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    Actually since you can't mean look magic bounce users so you aren't trapping them, so if you use skill swap, they can just switch out to apt counter, tho normalize gar is actually really good so imo you should look into perish trap one
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
    motherlove likes this.
  21. motherlove

    motherlove

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    Going through the walls in the current VR, this set loses to Magearna, Snorlax, Skarm, Zygarde, Suicune, Zapdos, Mandibuzz, Doublade, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Meloetta, Muk, Hippodown, Celesteela etc etc... I think you get the idea.

    You can't trap Mb mons and when you've used mean look and skill swap your set is already pretty obvious so they'll switch out to a counter and you're not going to beat them.

    EDIT: Sniped.
    darksylvion likes this.
  22. Yahooboo

    Yahooboo

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    fair enough, ty.
  23. Klang

    Klang
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    reqs (open)
    aaareqs.png
    Ban Kartana, the combination of decent physical bulk and speed and raw power means that it will at least net one or two kills a game no matter what. I used this core when I laddered:

    [​IMG]
    Magearna @ Leftovers
    Ability: Grassy Surge
    EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 SpA
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Fleur Cannon
    - Volt Switch
    - Energy Ball
    - Protect

    [​IMG]
    Kartana @ Grassium Z
    Ability: Tinted Lens
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Leaf Blade
    - Smart Strike
    - Sacred Sword
    - Swords Dance

    Grassy Terrain Magearna is pretty solid itself, as it gets the equivalent of Poison Heal recovery every turn and it loses its Ground weakness for the most part. But once Kartana manages to get in, if the opponent doesn't have Unaware Skarmory he's going to have to sac something:
    some calcs (open)
    +2 252 Atk Tinted Lens Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Grassy Terrain: 312-366 (93.4 - 109.5%)

    252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia in Grassy Terrain: 351-414 (79.2 - 93.4%)

    252 Atk Tinted Lens Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole in Grassy Terrain: 312-370 (74.6 - 88.5%)

    252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Zygarde in Grassy Terrain: 466-550 (111.7 - 131.8%)

    252 Atk Kartana Bloom Doom (175 BP) vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde in Grassy Terrain: 348-409 (83.4 - 98%)
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2017
  24. Quantum Tesseract

    Quantum Tesseract Imasugu
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    1,800
    When Dugtrio is quickbanned, but Kartana suspected :thinking:
    reqs (open)

    upload_2017-3-27_21-2-27.png

    I'm going to vote ban because this thing is obviously broken. It has at best 3 reliable walls, and it can lure all of them (Doublade with TC or SD Grassium, Skarmory with Galvanize, and Buzzwole with SD Grassium or Aerilte). Outside of that, you have to make constant predictions and reads in order to not sack a mon every time it comes in, and even then you end up failing more often than not.

    After this, though, I'd like to call some attention to Hoopa-U. While it's much slower than kartana, and thus (mostly) only lethal to stall instead of to both stall and offense, but it's basically unwallable. Choice Band sets have about one wall in Hippowdon, which they can 2hko with uninvested psychic, sheer force sets can only be walled if you know the coverage, Specs sets can destroy any special wall, scarf sets can clean offense... it's just too impossible to predict, and even once you know what it runs its still one of the most terrifyingly potent pokemon in the metagame with each set. At team preview, you have to basically check off what you don't need and can afford to sack to learn its set, upon which you hope you brougth the one answer that varient has. It's just too good; no one mon should be the best wallbreaker, the best lure, and (one of) the best cleaners in a single pokemon, much less in a single set.

    Attached Files:

    thesecondbest, aki0s, nv and 7 others like this.
  25. Zephyr Dragon Lord

    Zephyr Dragon Lord

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    477
    https://gyazo.com/23eba9ed66578f07186689cf81e66184

    For once, a suspect that I smashed through.
    (...Though yes, why wasn't this the thing that was quickbanned? I guess Duggy would have caused too big of a stink with a suspect thread.)

    Even though I personally didn't have terribly much trouble with Kartana, that was because hyper bulky Zygarde actually serves as a soft counter to the sets I faced.

    ...But I'm still voting to ban Kartana. Outside of some Sap Sipper Pokémon, answers to Kartana are few and far, FAR, between. Giving what effectively has the highest Attack stat in the game Tinted Lens or one of two further 1.5x boosts to its STAB moves is a recipe for disaster. I've watched enough of Laxpras, jrdn, and Quantum Tesseract to know the terror of Kartana first-hand. The only reason I actually survived it was either because my opponents ended up wasting Kartana, or they did not think to weaken Zygarde beforehand... and lacked a Z-crystal, for some reason. With a Z-crystal, Sap Sipper Volcanion, of all things, is the closest thing to a counter, and it loses to +2 All-Out Pummeling (though SR might be needed). Sap Sipper Hippowdon might also do the trick.

    With everything given, you either need a very bulky physical wall, or a faster special attack to remotely have a chance, and that's dumb.

    To get back to Z-Crystals, here's a set ported almost verbatim from something I used from that Kanto X Alola competition that I just adore.

    [​IMG]

    Battle Maiden (Primarina) (F) @ Primarium Z
    Ability: Tinted Lens
    EVs: 212 HP / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sparkling Aria
    - Moonblast
    - Encore
    - Perish Song/Psychic/Ice Beam/Aqua Jet

    A veritable nuke of a Water-type, and Tinted Lens makes it so much more satisfying. Ferrothorn? Enjoy that nice 80% damage upon switch-in. Tapu Fini? Have fun with Oceanic Operetta bringing you as far down as it does Ferrothorn. The Z-move also bops many things in a single hit, including Metagross, Manaphy, Noivern... the list goes on.
    Moonblast is secondary STAB, and also really hurts just about anything.
    Encore is the move that makes Primarina really stand out. Lob this on a predicted status move, and just visualize that rage that will inevitably follow. It also ensures that overpredictions on Primarina can be punished incredibly hard.
    The last slot is a bit of a filler, though Psychic and priority are the most useful moves in there.
    Speed EVs are to creep Magearna and other base 65s with 0 speed.
    Just be sure to watch out for Poison types, because this loses to every single one that is remotely offensive.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017

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