Serious America and the metric system

[Adamant Zoroark]

All but three countries - Liberia, Myanmar, and the United States - have adopted the metric system as their primary system of measurement. Last year, Myanmar's Ministry of Commerce announced that Myanmar is switching to the metric system. That leaves me with the question... Why are Americans so stubbornly refusing to adopt the metric system?

I was educated in both US units and metric units. I can switch between the two systems with little effort, and often speak in metric units - I use centimeters and millimeters (sorry, US spelling) rather than inches/fractions of an inch, milliliters and liters instead of fluid ounces and gallons, and grams/kilograms instead of ounces/pounds. Hell, I have my GPS set to give me distance in kilometers rather than miles! I found that the US system was rather difficult to learn while I understood the metric system instantaneously.

The metric system is easier to learn and undeniably better than US units. So... Why are Americans so stubborn? Congress passed the Metric Conversion Act in 1975, which ultimately failed. As of now, politicians are not willing to try again (though there is a bill in Hawaii which, if passed, would mandate use of the metric system in Hawaii by 2018, but this seems unlikely to pass given how Americans are in general.)

It seems to me that the vast majority of Americans are simply too lazy to learn a new system of measurements/are used to US units/tradition bullshit. Issues with cost are also brought up, but I find that they focus solely on the up-front costs of metrication. We essentially have to work in metric units for trade, but we also have to use US units for the domestic market, which is really quite inefficient. It also led to the loss of the Mars Climate Orbiter in September 1999. Expensive mistake there!

This PDF discusses this issue of inefficient use of two measurement systems and more. I'll bring the exact quote here:

"During conversion to the metric system, U.S. companies are able simultaneously to streamline their operations, eliminate inefficiencies, and reduce their inventories. Because products destined for
both foreign and domestic markets can be designed and manufactured to the same (metric) specifications, overlapping product lines can be eliminated. The standardization of fasteners, components, and sub-assemblies increases the efficiency and productivity of all manufacturing processes. When firms convert fully to the metric system, they are often surprised to discover how much the conversion has increased their profits. “Converted” firms frequently report finding new customers for their new metric products and services."

So, you're probably wondering, "LucaroarkZ, why the hell are you making this thread?" Well, I want to know a few things:

-What are your views on America's refusal to adopt the metric system as its primary system of measurement?
-If you are not from America, how did your country go about metrication? Was cost a major issue? Was opposition to metrication similar to opposition to metrication in America? Do you think America could go about metrication similarly to how your country did it? If not, how do you think they could do it, if at all?
-If you are from America, what are your views on metrication? If the US were to mandate full metrication, how do you think they should go about doing so?

 

[Shinryu]

So I'm curious, why/how did you find the metric system easier to learn? To me, it's more of a perspective of whichever one you are exposed to and grow up around is the one you end up learning better; I take one look at the metric system and pretty much give up and use an internet calculator to try turning anything in it to something easier to read for me because I'm only exposed to US measurements on a daily basis. And while the US is the last industrialized country not using it, other countries like Britain still keep imperial units alive as well even if they're officially metric.

Don't get me wrong, a universal system in general is probably better and would lead to less confusion/errors, and going into cooperation at an international level, they probably already use metric or at least try to communicate in it. But as for why it's not adopted in the US at large, the way I look at it anyways, that's still some billions or more dollars to covert everything to it (we're talking signage, education/books, reprograming computers and other technology that uses US measurements here, etc), not to mention the man hours as well to do it. And this is all for a "benefit" that most of the population in the US aren't going to ever see value in and don't care about to begin with since it's a boring math problem to many at worst for conversion. In a way, it's a "if it's not broken, why fix it?" kind of scenario here.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

So I'm curious, why/how did you find the metric system easier to learn? To me, it's more of a perspective of whichever one you are exposed to and grow up around is the one you end up learning better; I take one look at the metric system and pretty much give up and use an internet calculator to try turning anything in it to something easier to read for me because I'm only exposed to US measurements on a daily basis. And while the US is the last industrialized country not using it, other countries like Britain still keep imperial units alive as well even if they're officially metric.

Don't get me wrong, a universal system in general is probably better and would lead to less confusion/errors, and going into cooperation at an international level, they probably already use metric or at least try to communicate in it. But as for why it's not adopted in the US at large, the way I look at it anyways, that's still some billions or more dollars to covert everything to it (we're talking signage, education/books, reprograming computers and other technology that uses US measurements here, etc), not to mention the man hours as well to do it. And this is all for a "benefit" that most of the population in the US aren't going to ever see value in and don't care about to begin with since it's a boring math problem to many at worst for conversion. In a way, it's a "if it's not broken, why fix it?" kind of scenario here.

Well in my case, I was learning both systems at the same time, so it's just that I grew up around both and found one easier to learn and understand. I just ended up preferring metric units, that's all.

It definitely does seem like most of the population doesn't see the value in metrication. I'm definitely looking at it more from a perspective regarding the benefits for industry/business and not really looking much at what it means for America as a whole. It's certainly not easy to learn a new system of measurement when you're used to one of them. Cost of changing signage and whatnot is an issue too; I think the estimated cost of changing signs from US units to metric is something like 400 million dollars? I need to find that article... Of course, if we decided to go metric, we could just do what Britain did and keep road signs in mph and miles instead of changing them to km/h and kilometers.

But your post does highlight some issues towards metrication in the US. The way I see it, the cost is a one-time issue and just using metric would be more beneficial in the long run. Then again, I grew up around the metric system, so I do have a hard time seeing it from the perspective of someone who grew up around the US system.

 

[aurora]

It is clear that America is just a stubborn corrupt country full of ARSEHOLES, otherwise they would have already adopted the metric system...

 

[vonFiedler]

Most measurements in imperial were literally made the way they were to be easy to remember. Like a foot being about the size of a foot. Of course people have feet of different sizes so it's a shitty measurement system for science, but most Americans know that. We are taught that in school, and our scientists use metric. But in everyday life imperial is just way more useful. Listing feet and inches, like 5'7" is waaaay more understandable in gauging someone's height than saying 170 cm.

And I don't really see why converting to metric is so dire when the whole world still hasn't stopped doing daylight savings time. That shit possibly actually kills people.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Most measurements in imperial were literally made the way they were to be easy to remember. Like a foot being about the size of a foot. Of course people have feet of different sizes so it's a shitty measurement system for science, but most Americans know that. We are taught that in school, and our scientists use metric. But in everyday life imperial is just way more useful. Listing feet and inches, like 5'7" is waaaay more understandable in gauging someone's height than saying 160 cm.

And I don't really see why converting to metric is so dire when the whole world still hasn't stopped doing daylight savings time. That shit possibly actually kills people.

Maybe it's more useful in everyday life because you're used to imperial units? I'm sure if I told someone who grew up in, say, Germany, that I was 6 feet tall, it'd make no sense to them and I'd have to mention my height as 183 cm.

I sure hope this is trolling

 

[Perfect Cell]

heh, my dad and I had a conversation about this recently.

Growing up in Canada, I also learned how to convert between the two. Generally, we use imperial for measuring height, wingspan, ect, but stick to metric for everything else. Interestingly enough, Canada actually attempted to fully switch to the metric system, but ended up using both systems as we're close to America as well as the UK(historically anyway).

I really don't understand why America refuses to switch to metric for things other than height. Sure, 5'9 is easier to say than 175.26cm, but it doesn't make it more accurate.

Speaking of accuracy....

like 5'7" is waaaay more understandable in gauging someone's height than saying 160 cm.

5'7 is about 170cm. 160cm = 5'3.

 

[Shiruba]

Americans? Gee, that's a lot of countries, two continents worth, after all... Most of them use the metric system, you know!

Nah, kidding, that's another thing that bothers me, but it's for another time.


As a Canadian, we're more or less sandwiched in as this weird bastard baby between the USA and Britain in the sense that both are actually used commonly and fairly interchangeably - though, yes, it's probably more because of the relations with Britain before metrication. Distance is measured in kilometres and metres [actually, it's measured by most in time, but I digress], and temperatures are measured in Celsius, but height and weight are measured in feet and pounds, and Canadian penises are Imperial penises, conquering vaginas the world over!

My bro [I summon kutsui in Attack Mode!] knows a great deal more about the subject than I, having lived in the US his entire life and having started a petition to get the US government to look at the subject again - though it did fail as most of these things do. As for it "not killing people," vonFiedler, apparently it actually does, but hopefully my bro'll come back today or tomorrow to talk about that in more detail.

That said, I'll use the knowledge that I have about the perspective of your fabulous neighbours to the north.

Canada's anglophone demographics are quite similar to those of the United States, in particular the western provinces [British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, maybe Manitoba], which can be especially noticed considering the west's lack of "Canadian accents," as well as their more conservative tendencies [bar BC], with the Maritime provinces having their accents being comparatively strong overall, and the east generally electing more liberal-minded parties and politicians. My home province of Alberta has been [not wrongly] dubbed "Canadian Texas" as it's not only [I believe] the most conservative province, having elected conservatives into power for ~40 years in a row, a fairly large "redneck" population [Calgary's annual celebration is the Stampede, for Christ's sake], and because there were some stirrings of "muh independence" when the issue of whether the oil in Alberta belonged to the provincial or federal government. Anyway, because the demographics are very similar, among other reasons, US products are often delivered directly to Canada with little to no changes if they can allow for it. While metric labelling is required on food and such, other items like books and television shows aren't subject to this - books being a big reason why Imperial is huge in cooking, due to recipes being written in Imperial measurements. As for television shows... I always wondered why everyone in Spongebob paid only with twenty dollar bills.

Keep in mind that this is more of a Western Canadian perspective, not having spent enough time in the East outside of family [my family there actually uses Fahrenheit, but they spend a lot of time in the states], and I'm not even going to attempt to speak for Quebec.

Canada's generally been ahead in a lot of "social issues" in comparison to the US before; I'm not trying to brag, it's just true. Gay marriage, universal healthcare, freeing the slaves [though that was more the north in general], things like that - so, we essentially went through the bitchiness that they are/will be going through. Yes, Canadians bitched at the socialization of healthcare at first - Tommy Douglas [the guy who introduced it] was an unpopular guy before, and now he's a national hero. Yes, Canadians also bitched at the metrication process, "Trudeau come West" comics were apparently pretty popular - these comics involved the Prime Minister at the time [who pushed for metrication + official bilingualism] with a noose around his neck. He made third on the list, right behind a cool guy named Terry Fox who ran for cancer awareness.

That said, when the dust settled, did the country implode? Did all of our children spontaneously combust? Did Godzilla rise from the depths of the sea to squish the Quebecois? Sadly, no, all we got was a new official measurement system and some shitty t-shirt. Oh, and maybe some healthcare, too. Whatever.


Actually, they're probably only easy to remember because you grew up with them. There's nothing that intrinsically makes Imperial more easy to remember than Metric; quite contrary, as Imperial is based on arbitrary numbers, while Metric is based on neat groups of ten.

Daylight savings time both kills and saves people. When people get more sleep, heart attacks are about 10% less common, while they are 10% more common when they lose that hour of sleep. This troubles health professionals due to making it even more clear that people need more sleep than they actually get, which is a shame. Sleep's fucking awesome.

 

[vonFiedler]

Maybe it's more useful in everyday life because you're used to imperial units? I'm sure if I told someone who grew up in, say, Germany, that I was 6 feet tall, it'd make no sense to them and I'd have to mention my height as 183 cm.

And yet to someone who knows both and did the math and is still stupid enough to typo it, I'd say 6 feet is better. The problem is really just that meters aren't useful for describing a person's height. Imperial isn't arbitrary, almost every unit was made to be relatable to something easy to think of. That just makes it imperfect.

I sure hope this is trolling

You asked. I don't know why you'd make a reasonable OP and be a shit when someone responds.

 

[Shiruba]

...How isn't it arbitrary?
12 inches in a foot? 3 feet in a yard? 22 yards in a... chain? I hadn't even heard of that. Had to look up what was after a yard, but...
Either way, how do those naturally fit with each other? How do they correlate at all? How are those easy and practical to remember?

 

[vonFiedler]

An inch is a thumb (and shares the word in many languages), a foot is a foot, and we aren't sure about yards but I had a teacher who said it was supposed to be arm length (but I think they were wrong). Nobody uses chains so. Yeah they don't really fit together, but 12 is still a nice number that gets used a lot elsewhere.

Meanwhile you are probably forgetting that base 10 is also a human construct. Obvious difference is that most people have exactly 10 fingers (the source of base 10) but most feet aren't exactly 1 foot.

 

[Jorgen]

Yeah splitting units into 12 parts is super common in a lot of traditional unit systems because you get a ton of neat divisors that way. Need half of something? 6/12 will do it. A third? 4/12. How about a quarter? yup, 3/12. Half of a third? 2/12, son. These nice little divisions, particularly into thirds, are a convenient feature lacking in the metric system.

 

[mien]

Most measurements in imperial were literally made the way they were to be easy to remember. Like a foot being about the size of a foot. Of course people have feet of different sizes so it's a shitty measurement system for science, but most Americans know that. We are taught that in school, and our scientists use metric. But in everyday life imperial is just way more useful. Listing feet and inches, like 5'7" is waaaay more understandable in gauging someone's height than saying 170 cm.

 

[Codraroll]

For temperature, I don't see why anybody living in cold areas would ever prefer Fahrenheit over Celsius.

If it's warmer than zero, ice will melt. Colder than zero, and puddles will freeze. Zero degrees sets a clear divisor on how your driving to work will be, or whether it's safe to store food outdoors, or if precipitation will fall as rain or snow. Positive and negative temperatures are like two separate world, so drastically different will the environment be if the line is crossed. Fahrenheit somehow sets that limit at thirty-two. Makes perfect sense.

Otherwise, Metric royally trumps Imperial when it comes to scaling and conversion between units. One milliliter = 1 cubic centimeter = 1/1000 of a liter. One liter would be a cube exactly ten centimetres on each side. And - wouldn't you know - one liter of water weighs almost exactly one kilogram. Put on a level surface, our litre-cube of water would excert a force of (very close to) 10 Newtons downwards, at a pressure of 1 kilopascal. Base ten all the way.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Yeah splitting units into 12 parts is super common in a lot of traditional unit systems because you get a ton of neat divisors that way. Need half of something? 6/12 will do it. A third? 4/12. How about a quarter? yup, 3/12. Half of a third? 2/12, son. These nice little divisions, particularly into thirds, are a convenient feature lacking in the metric system.

This is true, you get a ton of divisors by splitting things into 12 since 12 has more proper factors than 10, especially with thirds which end up being a repeating number in decimal (even then, I don't really find many people using fractions regularly in metric.) The metric system has a nice advantage of being able to convert between units simply by moving decimal points, which you just can't do in US/imperial units. And I'm pretty sure most people think better in base-10/power of ten.

The fractions are really the only "advantage" Imperial has, though, and I don't think it's enough to make it preferred over the metric system. Just my two cents.

 

[vonFiedler]

Video

You do realize that 99% of what he just said is never used at all right? So yeah, a lot of that certainly is outdated.

Now, I do agree that Celsius kicks the shit out of Fahrenheit. And it's also the easiest conversion to learn, as everyone already knows the freezing and boiling points of water.

 

[Shinryu]

Regarding temperature differences, this is all you pretty much need to know:

 

[noobcubed]

Well, apparently in Britain we use the metric system? That's news to me. To any Brits out there, when was the last time you ordered 568 millilitres of beer, saw a road sign restricting you to a top speed of 48.3 kilometres per hour, or heard someone using the euphemism "1.83 metres under" to refer to a dead person?

 

[Limi]

Listing feet and inches, like 5'7" is waaaay more understandable in gauging someone's height than saying 170 cm.

and 77kg is waaaay more understandable in gauging someone's weight than saying 169lb (and 12oz ...does that round up or down? don't really know with imperial).
You see, this is quite a bold statement to make as virtually billions of people around the world find 170cm plenty intuitive, just as you find no issue with 169 (or 170) pounds. I admit you miiiiight have somewhat of a point as the leading 1 which is pretty much always there does kind of blur differences if you aren't used to it, but well, it applies to pounds just as much as to meters. (as a side note, I don't see 170cm outside of medical contexts; the commonplace way to say it is 1.70m, at least here)

Meanwhile you are probably forgetting that base 10 is also a human construct. Obvious difference is that most people have exactly 10 fingers (the source of base 10) but most feet aren't exactly 1 foot.

it might be, but the decimal system has, for better or for worse, pervaded your entire sense of arithmetics, so you will inevitably find unit systems with scales other than powers of 10 at least slightly annoying to make calculations with (this includes seconds/minutes/hours as well, and maybe angular degrees, although we should probably rather follow the way of the Tao Tau there than decimal). Easy division by 3 is nice and all, but at the cost of mathematical intuition? meh.
of course, the world would be a much cooler place if we had just used trigesimal or sexagesimal from the start, but there is sadly no way of changing that now.

Well, apparently in Britain we use the metric system? That's news to me. To any Brits out there, when was the last time you ordered 568 millilitres of beer, saw a road sign restricting you to a top speed of 48.3 kilomteres per hour, or heard someone using the euphemism "1.83 metres under" to refer to a dead person?

obviously countries that go full metric round their stuff accordingly, so you'd only get half a liter of beer (but it's British anyway, so no big loss there). And you can drive a bit faster too? Sounds like a deal to me. And nobody gives a fuck about idioms anyway, you could use logarithmic units based on the cumulative shoe size of all people on the world for all I care. Or just push daisies.

 

[vonFiedler]

I admit you miiiiight have somewhat of a point as the leading 1 which is pretty much always there does kind of blur differences if you aren't used to it, but well, it applies to pounds just as much as to meters.

You may be forgetting that a far smaller portion of the American population is 100-199 pounds than the portion that is 1-1.99 meters tall.

But yeah, point taken.

 

[Sapientia]

Yeah splitting units into 12 parts is super common in a lot of traditional unit systems because you get a ton of neat divisors that way. Need half of something? 6/12 will do it. A third? 4/12. How about a quarter? yup, 3/12. Half of a third? 2/12, son. These nice little divisions, particularly into thirds, are a convenient feature lacking in the metric system.

Prolly the only advantage. But why do you also use 3, 22 and shit + the names aren't very intuitive either. Of course I know what a foot is, but why is a foot 12 inches and a yard 3 feet?

You can't tell me that this is easier than the metric system, if you didn't grow up with it...

 

[Trax]

If you think using a variable base measurement system (as opposed to base 10) is a good idea I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Stratos]

To all who never learned the customary system and just googled it, this is the actual system:

12 inches in a foot, 3 feet in a yard, 1760 yards in a mile (2000 yards in a nautical mile). All those other units last saw use when King George was on American currency. That said I'm not particularly concerned as to whether we keep this system or switch to the metric, as long as we keep running the 1600m.

Awaiting brap post on how using the customary system makes americans literally Hitler.

 

[youngjake93]

An inch is about the length of your thumb
A foot is about the length of your foot
A yard is about the length you cover in one step

I like pounds more just because I don't feel like you have to go into decimals as much for practical everyday use. Having units 2.2x larger makes you feel obligated to use quarter and halves more often.

I like fahrenheit over celcius for everyday use basically for the reason shinryu mentioned, but celcius and kelvin are usually used for anything at all in science in the US

Similar how a milliliter=cubic millimeter, a fluid ounce=an ounce of water. I know I will gain a pound of water weight if I drink a bottle of water.


I feel the metric system is easier to use and I guess is "better" for a lot of things. But the imperial system just "makes more sense" in everyday use. That's enough reason to not go through all the effort to change it for everyday use for now imo.

 

[Sapientia]

It makes more sense for everyday use, because you grew up with it.

I grew up with the metric system, so for me it makes more sense in everyday use.