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Amoonguss {GP 2/2} :]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by PttP, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. PttP

    PttP Shoutout to the sidewalk for keeping me off the streets
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    [​IMG]
    [Overview]
    <p>With a new Dream World Ability&mdash;Regenerator&mdash;Amoonguss has turned into a viable option for defensive teams. Its nifty typing allows it to absorb Toxic Spikes on contact and its defensive stats are exceptional. Amoonguss's access to Spore allows it to be a good team supporter, although its uses range far wider. With resistances to common attacking types, Amoonguss checks a variety of threats ranging from Thundurus-T to Breloom. Unfortunately for Amoonguss, it is a Grass-type. This means that it automatically was assigned a barren movepool with few alternative options. It is also a very one-dimensional Pokemon that lacks anything resembling attacking prowess. Either way, drugs are not good, kids, but feel free to use Amoonguss.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Wall
    move 1: Spore
    move 2: Giga Drain
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Sludge Bomb
    move 4: Stun Spore / Clear Smog
    item: Black Sludge
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 28 SpA / 228 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Amoonguss makes an excellent defensive pivot due to its new ability Regenerator, and good mixed bulk. The rise of Drizzle in the metagame is also helpful, as Amoonguss is an excellent switch-in to the rampant threats that accompany it. Amoonguss can switch into Drizzle powerhouses such as Politoed and Thundurus-T with little trouble, fearing only Ice Beam and Hidden Power Ice, respectively. Amoonguss also makes an excellent switch in against Breloom, with resistance to both of Breloom's STABs. Amoonguss is also a grounded Poison-type, which allows it to absorb Toxic Spikes whenever switched in, a feature invaluable to many teams.</p>

    <p>Amoonguss has access to the sacred Spore, and the threat of Spore is almost as valuable as the move itself. Be wary though, as once Spore is used, Amoonguss has little means to protect itself against various threats. Giga Drain is the best attacking option as it allows Amoonguss to beat threats such as Politoed and Keldeo, and also recover HP. Hidden Power Ice is useful for allowing Amoonguss to hit Pokemon such as Landorus and Salamence for major damage, while Sludge Bomb can be used to keep Grass-types such as Breloom at bay. Do keep in mind that not only is a neutral Sludge Bomb is almost as powerful as a super effective Hidden Power Ice, but also has a chance to poison. The choice between Stun Spore and Clear Smog depends on your team. Stun Spore is generally more useful, crippling a foe for the entirety of the match and not allowing Pokemon such as Lucario to set up with impunity. However, Clear Smog is an acceptable alternative option as it makes Amoonguss a solid Calm Mind Keldeo and Swords Dance Breloom counter. If you are using Clear Smog you must remember that Clear Smog's effect does not work through Substitutes even if it breaks the Substitute.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EV spread provides Amoonguss with as much special bulk as possible while also giving it the ability to break +2 Keldeo's Substitutes 100% of the time with Giga Drain. A more physical spread with a Bold nature is usable in order to better take on Pokemon such as Breloom and Conkeldurr, but Amoonguss will lose its ability to wall the aforementioned Drizzle threats. Substitute is a solid option as it eases prediction; it allows Amoonguss to know exactly what it will use Spore on rather than using it blindly on a switch-in. Regenerator only makes Substitute a better option as Amoonguss will recover the lost HP whenever it switches back in. The downside to Substitute is that Amoonguss can hardly afford it give up one of the recommended moves listed above.</p>

    <p>Although Amoonguss is an excellent pivot for many teams and heals every time it switches in, it is still very susceptible to entry hazards. Amoonguss itself tends to attract Pokemon that set up entry hazards, such as Ferrothorn and Forretress, and has no way of stopping these threats once Spore is used. As such, useful teammates for Amoonguss are Pokemon that can use Rapid Spin to clear hazards, such as Forretress and Starmie. Magic Bounce users such as Espeon and Xatu are also good teammates as they prevent hazards from being set up in the first place, but require a good amount of prediction to do their job successfully. Since many hazard setters are Steel-types, Magnezone makes an excellent teammate to trap and kill such threats. Slowbro and Slowking are also good teammates for Amoonguss because not only do they have excellent type synergy with Amoonguss, but also share the wonderful ability of Regenerator. Heatran is an exceptional teammate as it roasts the aforementioned hazard setters and also shares good synergy with Amoonguss.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>If you didn't notice, entry hazard setters such as Ferrothorn and Forretress are a major thorn (heh) in Amoonguss's side. To counter this you can use Hidden Power Fire over Hidden Power Ice or Sludge Bomb, but if you do use it, make sure rain isn't up. Hidden Power Fire in rain will do pitiful damage, even to things 4x weak to it. If you want to take this strategy to the next level, you can use a Fire Gem in addition to Hidden Power Fire, but honestly, you have teammates for a reason, use them. Using Sunny Day or Rain Dance can always be fun if your team needs it, but there are other Pokemon that suit this role better. Growth can be used if you're horribly bored, but Amoonguss is simply too weak to make this a viable option. Toxic looks usable in theory, but in actuality most of Amoonguss's switch-ins are going to be immune to poison, so there is little reason to use it. Synthesis can be used for on-the-spot healing, but is unreliable due to the abundance of weather.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Due to Spore, it is very difficult to outright counter Amoonguss, but once Sleep Clause is activated, Amoonguss is fairly easy to counter. Skarmory fears nothing from it, including Hidden Power Fire, and can set up Spikes with impunity. Both Ferrothorn and Forretress fear Hidden Power Fire, but only if rain is absent. Otherwise, both of these threats can set up easily. Jirachi walls anything Amoonguss throws at it and can set up with Calm Mind. Scizor and Genesect can switch into any move besides Stun Spore or Hidden Power Fire and then do major damage with U-turn and Flamethrower, respectively. Latias with Substitute can set up on Amoonguss easily with Amoonguss having no way of breaking Latias's Substitutes. It is important to note that Clear Smog does not clear boosts through Substitutes, even if the Substitute is destroyed. Both Tornadus formes have a field day with Amoonguss as they can just fire off Hurricanes with ease. Volcarona and Heatran can roast Amoonguss before it can do anything in return. Without Hidden Power Ice, Gliscor walls Amoonguss easily and can dispose of it. Even with Hidden Power Ice, Amoonguss has troubles with Gliscor as defensive Gliscor can slowly chip away at Amoonguss and AcroBat Gliscor can KO immediately with Acrobatics. Xatu and Espeon can switch into any of Amoonguss's moves, including Spore, due to Magic Bounce and can respond with a STAB Psychic or Psyshock.</p>
  2. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    You might want to add Toxic and maybe Synthesis to OO (or AC). Also, some people like to run 28 SpA EVs in order to break +1 Keldeo's Subs with Giga Drain 100% of the time, so mentioning that somewhere might not be a bad idea.

    Otherwise,

    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  3. Seth Vilo

    Seth Vilo

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    In the Amoonguss thread there are multiple EV spreads that seem to work differently than that one. Personally I always run Calm 248 HP / 76 Def / 28 SpA / 156 SpD. It's HP is divisible by 8, so 248 minimizes residual damage. This spread also allows it to take on Sub Keldeo, as jc104 said, and to fully counter Breloom as few other things can. Many others just run 40 Def, which allows it to comfortably sponge Breloom most of the time, and preserves more Special bulk. Also, for sure make Clear Smog the first slash and put it it the third slot; that move is beyond precious to Amoonguss, who would otherwise be set-up bait once Spore is used, and would have issues countering Keldeo fully and Breloom. The then last slot is mainly coverage/filler anyway, and those are usually last in the order-by-importance format. That's my 2 cents.

    EDIT: Ha. 252 posts. I've maxed my posting stat. =P
  4. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Looks good, good to see that this thing isn't overhyped here.

    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  5. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    [qc]3/3[/qc]
  6. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte For every king that died, oh, they would crown another
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    Don't forget to mention solid Regenerator cores with Slowbro / Slowking as team members; and virtually any bulky steel type walls Amoonguss. Nice job.
  7. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    You should mention Sub in the AC. It works very good with Regenerator, and allows you to make sure that you will put to sleep the right poke, and not the one that the opponent will chose.
  8. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Definitely agree with the above post. Honestly I don't really see the point of Sludge Bomb since you're hardly going to be scratching anything with neutral damage anyway. Clear Smog is a must to prevent yourself from getting set up on, though the fact it doesn't do shit to steel types and sucks against subs blows pretty badly.

    The defense EVs are absolutely necessary for taking on Breloom, who is very difficult to wall with other Pokemon. At least 40 are necessary and usually Amoongus doesn't mind the slight loss in special bulk, not when it gives it the ability to wall one of the most prominent threats in the game.

    Slowbro more than Slowking since Amoongus makes a better special wall than physical, but yes, definitely needs a mention. Hell, I honestly wouldn't use Amoongus WITHOUT Slowbro; the two are just so damn good together that it must be mentioned. Also mention Heatran as a good partner, being able to take the special attacks that are Super-effective against Amoongus with ease, they make a very potent specially defensive core.

    Interesting, I might consider trying that out in the future. Honestly I find the HPs to be horribly weak in most instances, so substitute might actually have more use. Worth a shot in any case.
  9. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the Astronaut's pet dog >:3
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    nah, Seth Vilo, that's way little special defense imo - this thing really wants that SpD to survive hits from +2 LO Thundurus-T and the like. Stun Spore > Clear Smog, since you're guaranteed to cripple 2 mons rather than just 1 mon.

    Jimera0, Sludge Bomb is useful for hitting Grass-types, especially Breloom, for good damage.
  10. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    Well if you're using Clear smog you really don't need Sludge Bomb. Most Grass types in the tier aren't actually weak to Poison (just Celebi, Breloom and Virizon if I'm correct), and two of those will probably shrug it off anyway. Clear Smog is better for Breloom because it removes Sword Dance boosts, which is frequently the difference between safely countering it and getting your ass handed to you (unless Sludge Bomb is an OHKO on breloom I suppose? I dunno I'd have to do calcs).

    Honestly, considering how much little Sludge Bomb does coverage wise I'd rather use Clear Smog for the haze effect, which is useful against a few more opponents (IE Latias without a Sub).

    And having been using Amoongus with 40 Def EVs for the past several weeks (the whole time I've been testing Dragonite in fact) I can safely say it doesn't mind losing the points. It still tanks even super-effective hits like a boss and again, you REALLY want to be able to counter Breloom.
  11. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    What exact purpose do those 40 Def evs have?
  12. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!

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    That... that is a very good question. I've seen it everywhere so I ASSUMED it had some purpose, probably with countering Breloom but now I can't find anything anywhere that actually SAYS what those EVs are for. The best I can find is a 48 Def EVs spread for an old OU analysis, and the only explanation there was "good overall defenses with a bias towards special defense".

    Furthermore, I did some calculations and found that the 10 points to defense have no appreciable difference for countering Breloom. While it may be for SOMETHING out there, I honest to goodness can't find a damn thing.

    As such, it seems like the 40 Defense EVs were probably just shunted in there, and the 216 Special defense EVs were actually the ones that were optimized, probably to take some specific special attack better. However since Amoongus is emerging as an almost exclusively special wall outside of countering SD Virizon and Breloom, I honestly don't see the purpose in running those EVs after all.

    So yeah, looks like I was wrong. I assumed they had to be for SOMETHING useful but it looks like they were just adapted in a vain attempt to make Amoongus more balanced defensively.

    So yeah, EV spread in the OP is probably good, though the mention of the special attack to break Keldeo's sub does warrant mention I suppose.
  13. Eo Ut Mortus

    Eo Ut Mortus Elodin Smells
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    Made most of the changes suggested. The EV spread now has 28 SpA for breaking Keldeo Substitutes but otherwise remains identical to the spread I originally posted. I'm leaving Clear Smog in the fourth slot since it serves a similar purpose to Stun Spore (preventing set-up), and in testing, I never found it as useful as additional coverage. Which one is superior is naturally dependent on the rest of Amoonguss's team.

    In regards to Sludge Bomb: a neutral Sludge Bomb hits almost as hard as a super effective Hidden Power Ice (135 vs 140), but it also has a chance to Poison. It hits Grass-types such as Breloom harder (it actually OHKOes min/min). Its other targets are also covered by Hidden Power Ice (i.e. Thundurus-T).
  14. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Also, currently in OU the Grass-types are:

    - Breloom
    - Venusaur
    - Amoonguss (I guess...)
    - Virizion
    - Ferrothorn
    - Abomasnow

    Notice that, out of the listed, only two are hit for neutral (Venusaur and other Amoonguss) and one is immune (Ferrothorn) to Sludge Bomb. Honestly, I don't see how it's a terrible move at all.
  15. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast @manu 11: Arcticblast joined, gg all
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    Yeah, we need bluemon and Scarfwynaut in this thread lol

    Anyway, why is Clear Smog relegated to a second slash? Being a hard stop to standard CM Keldeo and Techniloom and a panic button against CM Reuniclus (speed ties are evil) is really something you want to have.

    Protect is also a nice option for a little scouting + extra Leftovers recovery (albeit it stabs you in the back if you switch take a burn...).
  16. Eo Ut Mortus

    Eo Ut Mortus Elodin Smells
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    I'll switch them around if QC thinks Clear Smog is better. For the record, Techniloom is OHKOed by Sludge Bomb, and your point about CM Reuniclus is too situational to be considered: Stun Spore is arguably a "panic button" against anything that relies on Speed. There is merit in having Clear Smog for CM Keldeo/Breloom (if HP Ice is being used), but there are few other common stat boosters that Amoonguss is suited to countering. On the other hand, Stun Spore has more application, as it hits most Pokemon and stops stuff like Jirachi/Lucario from switching in and setting up completely unhindered.
  17. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the Astronaut's pet dog >:3
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    ^ you hit the nail on the head, Eo Ut Mortus; keep the current order.
  18. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Shouldn't the item be Leftovers as opposed to Black Sludge? I thought it's a Smogon-wide consensus that Leftovers > Black Sludge, because if the opponent uses Trick on Amoongus and gets Black Sludge, it can use Trick again to pass the item onto one of your other Pokemon.

    [EDIT] After reading jc104's linked post, I agree that Black Sludge > Leftovers.
  19. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    It was the consensus for a long time, but then somebody actually took the time to consider it. It might not be quite as clear-cut as Eo suggests, but Black Sludge is probably the preferred item overall.

    Also, to clarify, I support Stun Spore ahead of Clear Smog.
  20. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title
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    The consensus has been challenged recently.
  21. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    I seriously see no point in arguing about Black Sludge and Leftovers, to be honest. It's like arguing over whether Agility or Rock Polish is better on AgiliGross, or Recover vs Roost on Lati@s. Just pick one and keep it consistent in your analysis, IMO.
  22. PttP

    PttP Shoutout to the sidewalk for keeping me off the streets
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    amoonguss is now redy for checks :]
  23. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego The little hand says it's time to rock and roll
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    amateur check
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    [Overview]
    <p>If you were hoping this would be a joke analysis commenting every other line about drugs and whatnot, you are going to be horribly disappointed. This is a serious analysis. With Amoonguss' new Dream World ability, Regenerator, Amoonguss has turned into a viable option for defensive teams. Amoonguss' nifty typing allows it to absorb Toxic Spikes on contact and its defensive stats are more than exceptional. Amoonguss' access to Spore allows it to be a good team supporter, although Amoonguss' uses range far wider. With resistences to common attacking types, Amoonguss checks a variety of threats ranging from Thunderus-T to Breloom. Unfortunately for Amoonguss, it is a Grass-type. This means that it automatically was assigned a barren movepool with little alternatives. It is also a very one-dimensional Pokemon that lacks anything resembling attacking prowess. Either way, drugs are not good, kids, but feel free to use Amoonguss.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Wall
    move 1: Spore
    move 2: Giga Drain
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Sludge Bomb
    move 4: Stun Spore / Clear Smog
    item: Black Sludge
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 28 SpA / 228 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Amoonguss makes an excellent defensive pivot due to its new ability Regenerator, and good physical and special Bulk. The rise of Drizzle in the metagame also makes Amoonguss an excellent switch-in to the rampant threats. Amoonguss can switch into Drizzle powerhouses such as Politoed and Thunderus-T with little angst, fearing only Ice Beam and Hidden Power Ice, respectively. Amoonguss is also an excellent switch-in against Breloom, with resistences to both of Breloom's primary STABs. Amoonguss is also a grounded Poison-type, which allows it to absorb Toxic Spikes whenever switched in. This feature is invaluable to many teams, and further increases Amoognuss' ability to support its team.</p>

    <p>Amoonguss has access to the sacred Spore, and the threat of Spore is almost as valuable as the move itself. Be wary though, once Spore is used, Amoonguss has little means to protect itself against various threats. Giga Drain is Amoonguss' best attacking option, (add comma) as it allows Amoonguss to beat threats such as Politoed and Keldeo, and also recover HP. Hidden Power Ice is useful for allowing Amoonguss to hit Pokemon such as Landorus and Salamence for major damage, while Sludge Bomb can be used to keep Grass types such as Breloom at bay. Do keep in mind that not only is a neutral Sludge Bomb is almost as powerful as a super effective Hidden Power Ice, but also has a chance to poison. The choice between Stun Spore and Clear Smog depends on your team. Stun Spore is generally more useful for being able to cripple a foe for the entirety of the match and not allowing Pokemon such as Lucario to set up on you with impunity. However, (add comma) Clear Smog is an acceptable alternative option as it makes Amoonguss a solid Calm Mind Keldeo and Swords Dance Breloom counter. If you are using Clear Smog you must remember that Clear Smog does not hit through Substitutes, (add comma) even if it breaks the Substitute.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The provided EV spread allows Amoonguss as much special bulk as possible while also being able to break +1 Keldeo's Substitutes 100% of the time with Giga Drain. A more physical spread with a Bold nature is usable in order to be bulkier against Pokemon such as Breloom and Conkeldurr, but this makes Amoonguss lose out on its ability to wall the aforementioned Rain threats. Substitute is a solid option to use as it eases prediction and allows Amoonguss to know exactly what it will use Spore on rather than using Spore on a switch-in. Regenerator only makes Substitute a better option as Amoonguss will recover the lost HP whenever it switches back in. The downside to Substitute is that Amoonguss can hardly afford it give up one of the recommended moves.</p>

    <p>Although Amoonguss is an excellent pivot for many teams and does heal every time it switches in, it is still very susceptible to entry hazards. Amoonguss itself tends to attract Pokemon that set up entry hazards, such as Ferrothorn and Forretress, and has no way of stopping these threats once Spore is used. As such, useful teammates for Amoonguss are Pokemon that can use Rapid Spin to clear hazards, such as Forretress and Starmie. Magic Bounce users such as Espeon and Xatu are also good teammates as they prevent hazards from being set up in the first place, but require a good amount of prediction to pull of successfully. Since many hazard setters are Steel-types, Magnezone makes an excellent teammate to trap and kill such threats. Slowbro and Slowking are also good teammates for Amoonguss because not only do they have excellent type synergy with Amoonguss, but also share the wonderful ability of Regenerator. Heatran is an exceptional teammate as it roasts the aforementioned hazard setters and also shares good synergy with Amoonguss.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>If you didn't notice, entry hazard setters such as Ferrothorn and Forretress are a major thorn (heh) in Amoonguss' side. To counter this, (add comma) you can use Hidden Power Fire over Hidden Power Ice and Sludge Bomb, but if you do use it, make sure Rain isn't up. Hidden Power Fire in Rain will do pitiful damage, even to things 4x weak to it. If you want to take this strategy to the next level, you can use a Fire Gem in addition to Hidden Power Fire, but honestly, you have teammates for a reason, use them. Using Sunny Day or Rain Dance can always be fun if your team needs it, but there are other Pokemon that suit this role better. Growth can be used if you're horribly bored, but Amoonguss is simply too weak to make this a viable option. Toxic looks usable in theory, but in actuality most of the switch-ins into Amoonguss are going to be immune to poison, so there is little reason to use it. Synthesis can be used for on-the-spot healing, but is unreliable due to the abundance of weather.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Due to Spore, it is very difficult to outright counter Amoonguss, but once Spore has been used, options to counter it with open up. Skarmory fears nothing from Amoonguss, including Hidden Power Fire, and can set up Spikes with impunity. Both Ferrothorn and Forretress fear Hidden Power Fire, but only if rain is absent. If Amoonguss lacks Hidden Power Fire, both these threats can set up easily. Jirachi walls anything Amoonguss throws at it and can set up with Calm Mind. Scizor and Genesect can switch into any moves besides Stun Spore or Hidden Power Fire and then do major damage with U-Turn and Flamethrower, respectively. Latias with Substitute can set up on Amoonguss easily and Amoonguss has no way of breaking Latias' Substitutes and Clear Smog has no way of penetrating Substitute. Tornadus-T and Tornadus-I have a field day with Amoonguss as they can just fire off Hurricanes with ease. Volcarona and Heatran can roast Amoonguss before Amoonguss can do anything in return. Without Hidden Power Ice, Gliscor walls Amoonguss easily and can dispose of it. Even with Hidden Power Ice, Amoonguss has troubles with Gliscor as the Defensive Gliscor can slowly chip away at Amoonguss and AcroBat Gliscor can KO immediately with Acrobatics. Xatu and Espeon can switch into any of Amoonguss' moves, including Spore, due to Magic Bounce.</p>
  24. Dice

    Dice what's a god to a nonbeliever
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    +2.
  25. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    My bad, sorry.

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