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Amoonguss: Just Amoonguss

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by bluemon, Jun 21, 2012.

  1. Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Cipher Admin Lovrina

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    Clear Smog/Giga Drain/Spore... wait, so do I choose Stun Spore, Hidden Power Ice, or Hidden Power Fire in the last slot? I don't feel like the mushroom is doing much to Scizor anyway, and the extra damage against the Therians is quite nice. Besides, you can kill most Breloom by spamming clear smog over and over again, no?
  2. LizardMan

    LizardMan p good
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion

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    You can HP Fire Scizor on the switch, or hit Ferrothorn. That enough is reason to consider it. Clear Smog actually does more to Breloom because you get STAB on it.

    You should pick the move which fits best with your given team.
  3. Count Serperior

    Count Serperior

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    So what's the preferred nature & EVs for Amoonguss?
    Is it better to go physical with Bold or Special with Calm?

    I've seen arguements for both but he has to be better at one of them.
  4. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Specially defensive is the way to go, you really should have other pokemon to take a physical hit, otherwise your just losing to Keldeo, the reason Amoonguss is probably on your team in the first place.

    248 HP / 28 SpA / 238 SpD Calm is the spread I personally suggest. 248 to take less from stealth rock and sandstorm, 28 special attack insures you break through a +2 Keldeo substitute. You can use more defense if you wish 40 and 76 defense evs are both acceptable, note though they do hinder Amoonguss's ability to combat Keldeo a bit (it starts to get chances to 2HKO with rocks on the specs set).
  5. Roxastom100

    Roxastom100

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    I'd probably say special because he can take most special hits pretty good, but can use bold if you want....I've found that it doesn't work so well.

    I like this ev spread:

    252Hp/128Def/128Spdef.....yes I run Bold >.<

    You can just do max hp and spDef and go with Calm.
  6. tehy

    tehy

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    So, i'm thinking of replacing HP ice in the fourth slot with toxic. It only hurts me against gliscor and quadweak dragons (The normally weak toxic is better against mostly anyhow). This will help break bulky waters that might just recover in amoonguss's face. Thoughts?
  7. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    In my experience, Milotic, Jellicent and Vaporeon are about the only bulky waters that can take giga drains without much issue, and maybe are crippled by toxic. Jellicent just beats you always because of taunt. Usually Vaporeon is hydration these days, so toxic is useless, and Milotic can be taken out by a crit if it falls asleep. Both can't touch Amoonguss usually meaning if its a serious problem, both can be easily PP stalled to death (yes I have done this, do not tempt me to waste 30 minutes of your time), dieing to burns in 15 turns not to much of an issue because of regenerator.

    Toxic is generally useless vs dragons anyway since sure they are going to die, but in the meantime they are taking out half your team. Im not saying you have to run HP ice, but toxic is a pretty inferior option.
  8. Scrawly

    Scrawly

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    I've been running Stun Spore over HP Ice to some success. Slowbro covers Gliscor et al to my satisfaction, and it can be fun to cripple the designated sleep clause monkey and still pose a threat. Stun Spore, unlike Toxic, will prevent dragons from ravaging a team on the switch-in--if that's something of an issue for you. I must say, it's refreshing to play with a mon not suffering from four moveslot syndrome (actually, a reliable recovery move would have been fucking awesome).
  9. tehy

    tehy

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    Time to take this apart, via playtesting.

    Firstly, vaporeon might be hydration but A:It might not and B: if rain isn't up and i am great at that it's fucked anyhow. Secondly, some jellicent's won't taunt, especially if they need to heal that turn. Oh, and milotic can only be beaten if spore hasn't been used on something else AND with a crit? Not a great idea.

    Salamence can take down half my team, dragonite maybe with luck.

    Anyways, i'm unfortunately playtesting on the old PO server-it's a little shitty, and maybe some of the results are skewed as such, but i find it's really helpful to surprise a stallmon and fuck it up. I find i rarely would use HP ice anyhow, if i really think mence or nite is switching in i double switch to hippow, starmie.
  10. skaybestrogue

    skaybestrogue

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    It also is great to surprise a Latias with Toxic on the switch-in, Stun Spore Amoonguss is completely helpless against SubCM Latias, I would still say Stun Spore is superior, though. Toxic is kind of a niche move if your team faces troubles with bulky Waters and Latias.
  11. Mala

    Mala

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    I spent quite a while using physically defensive slowbro alongside specially defensive amoongus with spore/giga drain/clear smog/toxic and have also found toxic to be great on the many cm latias switch ins that occur. However these are the only times I can remember amoongus' toxic changing the outcome of a match. Overall I've found toxic to be pretty underwhelming, especially if you are trying to abuse regenerator to its fullest in the common Bromoongus combo.

    Plus I found myself getting a lot of steel switch ins and felt completely helpless with only giga drain to threaten them. I've recently starting using HP fire to surprise a lot of these common switch ins.

    I think the question of HP Fire/HP Ice depends on who you want to let get free switch ins. In my experience you are almost never staying in to use these moves, just using them on the switch. So I would decide based on whether I am more afraid of giving a free turn to Dragonite/Salamence/Gliscor or Jirachi/Scizor/Ferrothorn/Forretress. I think the decision mostly depends on the rest of your team but I would argue that if you are using the common Bromoongus combination you can use slowbro to easily check the first 3 and therefore should stick to HP fire.
  12. Cinccino

    Cinccino

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    I think Double Powder is Amoongus's best set. Im currently running Spore / Stun Spore / Clear Smog / HP Ice on him. I never find Giga Drain to be useful, all the bulky waters dont mind Weak Drain and things like Quag / Gastro would never stay in against Amoongus and Poison Heal Gliscor is really troublesome.
  13. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    I was recently amazed by physically defensive amoonguss...

    It walled my 3 core sweepers, keep in mind 2 of them are pokemon that usually don't mind amoonguss...

    -Banded Garchomp
    -SD Lucario
    -LO Taunt + 3 attacks keldeo

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6374661

    My mistake I guess was not using gengar to check it and hopefully wall break.. however the bulky scizor looked like it was more then capable of dealing with gengar.. I was impressed by the amoonguss/scizor core this guy used! I also blindly outraged, expecting it to be a special wall and punch a massive hole into it and well.. you will see how thanks to regenerator that plan backfired.

    It literally made me so mad I didn't even think rationally anymore and tried to beat it with a physical lucario.. which is obviously impossible thanks to its health regen... And then I made more rookie mistakes like failing to uturn out of an obvious scarf politoed switch and using psychic instead (with celebs)

    Ironically it was Keldeo (who is typically rock hard countered by amoonguss) that ended up koing it with a crit, the rain and LO boosted surf did a lot without the crit, but nothing for the goos to worry about.

    I'd just like to discuss Amoonguss used as a physical (somewhat mixed) wall in this metagame.

    edit: to add a little more to the discussion, consider this:

    Thanks to Regenerator and good mixed bulk, amoonguss can become a reliable preliminary check to a variety of the most used pokemon:
    -Politoed (if its specs/scarf ice beam, regenerator recovers a lot back)
    -Breloom (spore will always be a problem, but amoonguss walls it)
    -Terrakion (even banded stone edge will do a certain amount, regenerator out to a resist)
    -Rotom-W (can't touch amoonguss)
    -Starmie (regenerator can recover any pyshock or ice beam damage but amoonguss will soak h pumps and neuter thunderbolts and then threaten with giga drain)
    -Gliscor (sometimes)
    -Salamence (needs hp ice)
    -Latios (can soak up damage from some sets, especially baited choice moves)

    Now thats 8 out of the top 20 pokemon, fairly impressive! It also walls various other threats like Keldeo, conkeldurr, thundurus-t, Lucario and jolteon but that is somewhat offset by its struggle to deal with threats such as tornadus-t, alakazam, landorus, volcarona and espeon.

    Put it on a rain team and you will be able to wall most infernape as well as a lot of hydreigon :)
  14. Silenced Melody

    Silenced Melody

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    ...So basically what you're saying is that you need another wall that can switch in to say, Starmie's Psyshock or Ice Beam, right? That doesn't mean that Amoonguss is walling anything... It's just taking the first hit and passing the job to someone else.
    Some Thundurus-T sets can use Amoonguss as set up fodder providing that it doesn't have Hidden Power Ice.
    I still think that Amoonguss serves better as a specially defensive wall than a physical one because Slowbro walls physical attackers better than Amoongusss.

    Here are some calcs if the Amoonguss is physically defensive:
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs 252 HP/252 Def Amoonguss (+Def) : 59.72% - 70.14%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Amoonguss: 62.5% - 73.61%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    Physically defensive Amoonguss has the possibility of getting OHKO'd by an offensive Starmie's Ice Beam if Stealth Rocks and two layers of Spikes are on the field.

    Physically defensive Amoonguss can barely wall a Keldeo that has a Life Orb or Choice Specs in the rain.
    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Amoonguss: 60.88% - 71.76%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Amoonguss: 52.78% - 62.04%
    2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    Specially defensive Amoonguss takes Keldeo's hits very nicely and actually allows the mushroom to retaliate with Giga Drain or Spore as it is not 2HKO'd by any of Keldeo's attacks.
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Amoonguss (+SpDef) : 36.57% - 43.06%
    3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Amoonguss (+SpDef) : 41.9% - 49.31%
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    Edit: HOWEVER Psyshock from an offensive Starmie will OHKO specially defensive Amoonguss after rocks.
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs 252 HP/0 Def Amoonguss: 88.89% - 104.17%
    31.25% chance to OHKO
    Entry hazards damage: 54
    After entry hazards: 438 - 504 (101.39% - 116.67%)
    Guaranteed OHKO

    Here's another prominent threat in the OU Metagame: Sheer Force Landorus:

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Amoonguss (+SpDef) : 43.98% - 51.62%
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Amoonguss (+SpDef) : 58.8% - 68.98%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Amoonguss: 63.43% - 74.54%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Amoonguss: 84.72% - 99.54%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    I've also run some calcs that compare the effectiveness of physically defensive Amoonguss with Slowbro:

    Show Hide
    252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Amoonguss (+Def) : 61.11% - 72.22%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 Atk Choice Band Garchomp Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Slowbro (+Def) : 50.25% - 59.39%
    2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Lucario (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Amoonguss (+Def) : 51.85% - 61.11%
    2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Lucario (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Slowbro (+Def) : 42.64% - 50%
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Lucario (+Atk) Crunch vs 252 HP/252 Def Slowbro (+Def) : 76.14% - 89.34%
    2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 +2 Atk Life Orb Lucario (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Amoonguss (+Def) : 86.57% - 102.31%
    18.75% chance to OHKO

    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs 252 HP/252 Def Amoonguss (+Def) : 50.93% - 59.95%
    2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    etailed Result:
    252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs 252 HP/252 Def Slowbro (+Def) : 41.88% - 49.49%
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)


    In my opinion, I think physically defensive Amoonguss is outclassed by Slowbro and that Amoonguss should go specially defensive all the way. Slowbro and Amoonguss synergize relatively well as well.

    There are some merits of running the physically defensive set though, such as taking less than 50% from a CB Scizor's U-turn and taking less damage from Psyshocks.
  15. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    You have made some interesting points albeit slowbro has a lot more limitations then amoonguss in a metagame that is catching up on the special side of things. Not to mention Amoonguss has its perks like immunity to toxic, spore and lack of a weakness to U turn.

    I'd argue for a specially defensive biased amoonguss being a good set now, because investing a little defense to stop 2 key threats: SD Lucario and SD Breloom more reliably would be wonderful. There's a few other threats it can wall, significant ones being infernape in rain (just come in on close combat) and because amoonguss should be taking physical hits all over the place, it doesn't hurt to invest a little.

    ie:

    252+ Atk Lucario vs 252/0 Amoonguss does up to 90%, to be sure it survives the CC after stealth rock damage (in sand to negate black sludge recovery), you can invest 40 ev's in defence.

    As for SD Breloom, the more defence you invest, the later amoonguss can wake up, spore breloom and continue with HP/clear smog.

    I'm excited for when Serperior comes out, amoonguss is easily it's #1 wall as it is immune to leech seed and takes a pittance from +2 hidden power (ice or fire) whilst it can spam clear smog to prevent it getting any boosts and thanks to regenerator can keep coming back in on Serp :)

    edit: with a 252/40/210+ spread, amoonguss takes a maximum of 99% from LO Starmie psyshock, which really isn't bad, besides if you combine goos with the right allies (ie Tar), the ability to get tar in on a move not called hydro pump would be awesome.

    The same amoonguss can survive terrakion's stone edge all the time (sand buffeting won't ko amoonguss most of the time) after SR damage (71%-84%) allowing it to switch out to a counter (amoonguss has no business coming in on terrakion except to soak predicted close combats or as death fodder) whilst banded close combat fails to even 2hko amoonguss (42-50%) most of the time after rocks.

    It misses some important benchmarks, for example a +1 salamence can still barely ohko amoonguss with outrage (88%-104%) so amoonguss isn't a reliable preliminary check for it until it invests more heavily in defence (or even a pokemon that can tank the scarf set @ +1 and return ko with hp ice)
  16. Siggu

    Siggu

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    For those who may be interested in Amoonguss's physical bulk, X-Act's defense calculator suggests a 252/200/56+ spread. Now, we need to check whether there is something important this spread can do
  17. hyunwoo0124

    hyunwoo0124

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    Why not run Clear smog/ HP Fire So things like scizor and lucario can't setup on its face since they are immune to poison type moves

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