I've been using ScarfMoltres as a lead, and it fares pretty well. It loses pretty hard to Aerodactyl, but U-turn and Scizor/Metagross usually manage to prevent it from getting rocks up, Tyranitar, who takes a chunk from U-turn, and Heatran, but manages to OHKO most other bulky leads and 2HKO the ones with sashes, and with Air Slash's flinch rate that means no flinch rate. Later in the game, with U-turn and stuff he forces a lot of switches.
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Anti-Lead Discussion: Viable or Unreliable?
- Thread starter Flashstorm1
- Start date
Are there any KOs that Leaf Storm gets that Energy Ball/Grass Knot wouldn't get? Or is it just for power's sake?
mix t-tar anti-lead is cool.
i found life orb modest heatran lead to be pretty awesome, ohko occa metagross with overheat(yes, overheat, fire blast is not a ohko), can setup rocks most of the time and can still stop rocks from some other leads. i sugest everyone to try a life orb heatran lead with overheat, hp grass, earth power and SR. its simple but effective. try only for testing, it work on any kind of team, offensive or not. overheat also deal massive damage to machamp anti-lead through i dont know if ohko.
i found life orb modest heatran lead to be pretty awesome, ohko occa metagross with overheat(yes, overheat, fire blast is not a ohko), can setup rocks most of the time and can still stop rocks from some other leads. i sugest everyone to try a life orb heatran lead with overheat, hp grass, earth power and SR. its simple but effective. try only for testing, it work on any kind of team, offensive or not. overheat also deal massive damage to machamp anti-lead through i dont know if ohko.
Purely for power's sake, since it isn't often Sceptile will be able to sweep with a Grass-type attack anyway. I find it's better off to hit as hard as you possibly can when you can, as usually you'll only get that one chance. Two Leaf Storms significantly outdamage two Energy Balls, but Grass Knot is an alternative option for the more conservative player (you'll miss out on the OHKO on Vaporeon though).
My Personal Anti-Lead Kingdra
Kingdra@Life Orb
Swift Swim
Modest
EVs:
252 Sp Atk
232 Spd
24 HP
-Draco Meteor
-Icy Wind
-Surf
-Rain Dance
Description: So this set looks weird. Who uses Icy Wind? Well the FOCUS of this set is in fact the use of Icy Wind. Icy Wind hits for some decent damage on some leads, but that's not the point; if it was, Ice Beam would have been a better choice. Icy Wind also, always, lowers the opponent's speed stat by 1 stage. Given the EVs I've inputted for speed, after 1 Icy Wind, Kingdra outspeeds all base 130 speed Pokemon giving you the chance to finish or setup with Rain Dance the following turn.
I definitely recommend trying my Kingdra out.
Credit of this set belongs to me, Shin K.
Kingdra@Life Orb
Swift Swim
Modest
EVs:
252 Sp Atk
232 Spd
24 HP
-Draco Meteor
-Icy Wind
-Surf
-Rain Dance
Description: So this set looks weird. Who uses Icy Wind? Well the FOCUS of this set is in fact the use of Icy Wind. Icy Wind hits for some decent damage on some leads, but that's not the point; if it was, Ice Beam would have been a better choice. Icy Wind also, always, lowers the opponent's speed stat by 1 stage. Given the EVs I've inputted for speed, after 1 Icy Wind, Kingdra outspeeds all base 130 speed Pokemon giving you the chance to finish or setup with Rain Dance the following turn.
I definitely recommend trying my Kingdra out.
Credit of this set belongs to me, Shin K.
Anti leads may sound scary because of their name.
Two main purpose of anti leads are..
-Prevent
-setup
You prevent your opponent from setting up while you set up your own supportive moves.
One major point we need to keep in mind is that a Pokémon is not impossible to counter. Every single lead counters one another.
The element of surprise always wins.
IMO
An anti lead needs to have the "element of surprise" in order to counter as many leads as possible.
For example a Azelf carrying
~Grass Knot
~Fire Blast
~Stealth Rock
~Explosion / Taunt
This set may take out more then one Pokémon. It also covers more of the current popular anti leads. Most people expect Fire Blast or Psychic on Azelf.
Lets say a Azelf is carrying these moves
~Stealth Rock
~Taunt
~Grass Knot
~Explosion
While facing a Swampert you've four options.
Explode to take it out.
Grass Know to take it out.
Taunt it.
Or set up Stealth Rocks.
If the Swampert carries Protect then it may use protect on the first turn to scout your moves. If you Grass Knot while it was Protecting. 99.9% of the time Swampert will be switched out. If you taunt then the player may attack on the next turn predicting the taunt.
If you explode.. well you're going down. If you use Stealth Rock then that's a positive outcome for you.
Lets get back to the Grass Knot part...
If you carry both Fire Blast and Grass Knot you may get something using Fire Blast on the Switch in. Maybe even a Scizor if you're lucky. Not to mention that it resists Grass Knot X4.
If that happens then on the next turn you can set up Stealth Rock and Explode to take out another Pokémon.
IMO surprising movesets is the key to a good anti lead.
My description of an anti leads is..
A Pokémon that prevents set up; sets up its own support; and deals as much damage as possible before going down.
Mixed with the element of surprise an anti lead can even take out a whole team sometimes.
I remember using bellyzard as a lead once, while my opponent used Stealth Rock I Belly Drummed and sweeper the entire opposing team.
So.. overall my point is that a good anti lead needs to hold some kind of surprise in order counter other leads as well as other opposing Pokémon.
Two main purpose of anti leads are..
-Prevent
-setup
You prevent your opponent from setting up while you set up your own supportive moves.
One major point we need to keep in mind is that a Pokémon is not impossible to counter. Every single lead counters one another.
The element of surprise always wins.
IMO
An anti lead needs to have the "element of surprise" in order to counter as many leads as possible.
For example a Azelf carrying
~Grass Knot
~Fire Blast
~Stealth Rock
~Explosion / Taunt
This set may take out more then one Pokémon. It also covers more of the current popular anti leads. Most people expect Fire Blast or Psychic on Azelf.
Lets say a Azelf is carrying these moves
~Stealth Rock
~Taunt
~Grass Knot
~Explosion
While facing a Swampert you've four options.
Explode to take it out.
Grass Know to take it out.
Taunt it.
Or set up Stealth Rocks.
If the Swampert carries Protect then it may use protect on the first turn to scout your moves. If you Grass Knot while it was Protecting. 99.9% of the time Swampert will be switched out. If you taunt then the player may attack on the next turn predicting the taunt.
If you explode.. well you're going down. If you use Stealth Rock then that's a positive outcome for you.
Lets get back to the Grass Knot part...
If you carry both Fire Blast and Grass Knot you may get something using Fire Blast on the Switch in. Maybe even a Scizor if you're lucky. Not to mention that it resists Grass Knot X4.
If that happens then on the next turn you can set up Stealth Rock and Explode to take out another Pokémon.
IMO surprising movesets is the key to a good anti lead.
My description of an anti leads is..
A Pokémon that prevents set up; sets up its own support; and deals as much damage as possible before going down.
Mixed with the element of surprise an anti lead can even take out a whole team sometimes.
I remember using bellyzard as a lead once, while my opponent used Stealth Rock I Belly Drummed and sweeper the entire opposing team.
So.. overall my point is that a good anti lead needs to hold some kind of surprise in order counter other leads as well as other opposing Pokémon.
I think that Kingdra set has some serious potential. However, I think it may be more effective with hydro pump over surf, and a Lum berry. This would let you beat lead Roserade and smeargle, and would mean that you could beat suicide leads without losing at least 20% of your health. I'm not sure about rain dance, though it would let you OHKO a Tyranitar on the second turn, and attempt a sweep, even with lum berry as the item. You should also think, however, which other leads might be able to make use of Icy Wind, because a huge number of pokemon learn it, and I would imagine that many of them have better stats than Kingdra.
I don't want to take the chance of missing with Hydro Pump, so I chose Surf over it. With Life Orb, Kingdra can also 2HKO a standard lead Metagross. Also, the reason why I chose Kingdra is because of its typing. Kingdra only has one weakness, and that weakness is dragon. How many dragon leads do you see? Dragonite?
Lum Berry would be an option, but I'll personally stick to Life Orb. Just have a Sleep Talker on your team.
Lum Berry would be an option, but I'll personally stick to Life Orb. Just have a Sleep Talker on your team.
I've seen a similar Icy Wind porygon-z lead. It was running magic coat to counter sleep and download to steal a boost against most leads.
wouldn't sharpedo make a strong lead?
252spa/252spe @ life orb naive
surf
aqua jet
hp grass
taunt
surf+aqua beats azelf
Loses to roserade, but taunts it (with focus sash it'll live
2hko's metagross while living bullet punch
beats out swampert
2hko's aerodactyl
chance to 2hko jirachi, who can't do anything but u-turn
prevents infernape from getting out rocks
2hko's ttar, while taunting it
1hko's gliscor
taunt's ninjask+priority
the only one it outright loses to is machamp, but having a counter to machamp like bulky rotom or specs latias alleviates this problem
252spa/252spe @ life orb naive
surf
aqua jet
hp grass
taunt
surf+aqua beats azelf
Loses to roserade, but taunts it (with focus sash it'll live
2hko's metagross while living bullet punch
beats out swampert
2hko's aerodactyl
chance to 2hko jirachi, who can't do anything but u-turn
prevents infernape from getting out rocks
2hko's ttar, while taunting it
1hko's gliscor
taunt's ninjask+priority
the only one it outright loses to is machamp, but having a counter to machamp like bulky rotom or specs latias alleviates this problem
The issue with that Sharpedo is whether it is outclassed by leads like Empoleon (along with some similar leads I have experimented with like Vaporeon and Blastoise.)The sharpedo is KOed by lead Metagross with EQ + Bullet punch, and is not guaranteed to KO swampert with HP Grass. Infernape will live through aqua jet even with rough skin. Tyranitar can OHKO you with Stone Edge. In addition, sharpedo has little value later in the game.
Keep trying. I have said before that any water-type with a priority move (or even with icy wind), and decent stats can make a pretty effective lead, its just worth making sure that it isn't outclassed by something similar.
Keep trying. I have said before that any water-type with a priority move (or even with icy wind), and decent stats can make a pretty effective lead, its just worth making sure that it isn't outclassed by something similar.
I've been using a Togekiss anti-lead:
Togekiss @ Lum Berry
Serene Grace
Naughty
24 Atk/232 Spe/252 SpA
~Extremespeed
~Air Slash
~Fire Blast
~Aura Sphere/Grass Knot
I wanted something that could comfortably take on that anti-lead Machamp running around, as well as a variety of other leads. Fire Blast OHKOs Lum Metagross, but it's a 2HKO on Occa. Aura Sphere is for Heatran who otherwise walls this set, but then you lose against Swampert, so Grass Knot is another option. Against Aero and Azelf, Air Slash breaks the sash and Extremespeed finishes them off. (Since there is a Togekiss support lead set floating around, hopefully they'll go for the taunt and not get rocks out.) Lum lets you beat Roserade and Smeargle with Air Slash + XS.
It's EVed to outspeed non-scarved Heatran by one point. The rest goes into attack so XS can actually finish off weakened pokemon.
Togekiss @ Lum Berry
Serene Grace
Naughty
24 Atk/232 Spe/252 SpA
~Extremespeed
~Air Slash
~Fire Blast
~Aura Sphere/Grass Knot
I wanted something that could comfortably take on that anti-lead Machamp running around, as well as a variety of other leads. Fire Blast OHKOs Lum Metagross, but it's a 2HKO on Occa. Aura Sphere is for Heatran who otherwise walls this set, but then you lose against Swampert, so Grass Knot is another option. Against Aero and Azelf, Air Slash breaks the sash and Extremespeed finishes them off. (Since there is a Togekiss support lead set floating around, hopefully they'll go for the taunt and not get rocks out.) Lum lets you beat Roserade and Smeargle with Air Slash + XS.
It's EVed to outspeed non-scarved Heatran by one point. The rest goes into attack so XS can actually finish off weakened pokemon.
Anti-Anti-Lead I've been running:
Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Quiet Nature (+SAtk - Speed)
252 SA/128 Def/128 SDef
Sucker Punch
Shadow Ball
Pain Split
Will-o-wisp
This lets me 2HKO Aero and Azelf, 3HKO Machamp, and burn some lovely switch ins like Gyra and Ttar and Scizor.
I want a different move for Sucker Punch i think, perhaps shadow sneak? Or maybe I should go with Hypnosis for double status, or even TrickScarf it...
Anyway, that moveslot needs some work, but I've been testing it out and it works reasonable well. Especially against that freakin Machamp. God I hate that guy.
Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Quiet Nature (+SAtk - Speed)
252 SA/128 Def/128 SDef
Sucker Punch
Shadow Ball
Pain Split
Will-o-wisp
This lets me 2HKO Aero and Azelf, 3HKO Machamp, and burn some lovely switch ins like Gyra and Ttar and Scizor.
I want a different move for Sucker Punch i think, perhaps shadow sneak? Or maybe I should go with Hypnosis for double status, or even TrickScarf it...
Anyway, that moveslot needs some work, but I've been testing it out and it works reasonable well. Especially against that freakin Machamp. God I hate that guy.
I would suggest going TrickScarf, nothing screws other leads over more than TrickScarfers. However, something I do suggest if you do go TrickScarfer, is that you run a set-up-strategy. For example, a friend of mine is using Trick-Scarf Metagross to set up Rain Dance. You want to use the extra turn for Trick-Scarfing the Stealth Rock (or in the case of Taunt, you get a free switch-out and ruin their Taunter) to set up your 'strategy' so that way you can sweep. This can be done with pretty much anything - Trick Room, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Ninjask-Semi-Pass, Ninjask-Full-Chain, Regular Full-Chain... really, the options are limitless. Just make sure you don't 'just' attack them.
Yah, ur probably right about that, actually, I wouldn't suggest using Spiritomb... you need something above about 70 base speed to beat all the Taunters, which is one of the reasons you run it.
Well Tricking isn't the point. The point is that you deal with the increasingly popular Machamp leads, any Gyara leads, Metagross leads, Aero leads, Infernape leads, and Azelf leads with little problem.
Then you get a physical annoyer with w-o-w and some hilarious healing with pain split and prediction, as well as a spin blocker.
Trick would just be something that may be an improvement over sucker punch.
Of course, if you're only worry in the world is preventing rocks, it's less helpful. But on the team I use, rocks aren't a big issue...so Tomb is perfect.