Anything Goes Resources

[DoW]

Quantum Tesseract , I think thelinearcurve was talking about in sun: 252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Groudon in Sun: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I've used Lum Groudon for quite a while now and I have to say it's good at its job. Specifically, I've used it as a lead on an offensive team, and there's not many leads that do well against it, with quite a few leads relying on eq to deal with a p-don lead. For an offensive team it also functions as a usable Ekiller check, being able to come in on it and phaze it out, and while it doesn't always KO opponents it puts in a lot of work (e.g. twaving darkrai t1, catching rayquaza switchins with a dtail) and of course sets rocks at the same time.

The fact that non-primal always catches the opponent off guard shouldn't be underestimated either, nor should its ability to deal with keys (I've had it KO 4 keys in a row in the past).

Because of this, I'd certainly consider it to be closer to smeargle, ferrothorn or mega scizor than to tyranitar or bronzong, so I don't think moving it up to B- would be a bad move.

 

[Thimo]

If you wanna live Origin Pulse in rain from Primal-Kyogre, consider this:
252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Passho Berry Groudon in Heavy Rain: 337-397 (83.4 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
:J

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Also, I suppose I should submit this to sample since I don't mind it being used and it's good?
Its skill I swear
Offense

team

Fairy Arceus (Arceus) @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 24 HP / 90 Def / 180 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Toxic
- Defog
- Recover

Skill (Darkrai) @ Leftovers
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 196 Def / 60 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Void
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
- Dark Pulse

Rayquaza-Mega @ Lum Berry
Ability: Delta Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Dragon Dance
- V-create
- Extreme Speed

Gottagofast (Arceus) @ Life Orb
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Trust (Yveltal) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Foul Play
- Sucker Punch
- Knock Off
- Roost

Swag Keys (Klefki) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 120 SpA / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Swagger
- Dazzling Gleam
- Sleep Talk

 

[Black Schatten]

Funbot28 for the original rankings.

Thanks to imas234 for the banner!​

​

Current Viability Council
Gooser
Gunner
Hunter
Josh
Megazard ​

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If a pokémon's name is hyperlinked, it means an AG analysis has been created on the Smogon Dex. Click on the name to access the analysis.
​

S Rank
S

Arceus

Darkrai

Groudon (Primal)

Rayquaza (Mega)

Xerneas

A Rank
A+

Arceus (Fairy)

Arceus (Ghost)

Gengar (Mega)

Ho-Oh

Klefki

A

Arceus (Ground)

Diancie (Mega)

Yveltal

A-

Arceus (Steel)

Arceus (Water)

Kyogre (Primal)

Lugia

Mewtwo

B Rank
B+

Arceus (Dragon)

Arceus (Rock)

Deoxys (Attack)

Giratina (Origin)

Mewtwo (Mega-X)

Skarmory

B

Ferrothorn

Giratina

Sableye (Mega)

Scolipede

Smeargle

Zekrom

B-

Deoxys (Speed)

Dialga

Genesect

Kyogre

Mewtwo (Mega-Y)

Scizor (Mega)

Shaymin (Sky)

C Rank
C+

Arceus (Poison)

Blaziken

Bronzong

Clefable

Ditto

Espeon

Groudon

Lucario (Mega)

Tyranitar

C

Aegislash

Garchomp

Glalie

Jirachi

Kangaskhan (Mega)

Kyurem (White)

Landorus

Landorus (Therian)

Latias

Metagross (Mega)

Quagsire

Rayquaza

Salamence (Mega)

Wobbuffet

C-

Alomomola

Arceus (Dark)

Arceus (Electric)

Arceus (Flying)

Blissey

Drifblim

Greninja

Latios

Palkia

Terrakion

Thundurus

D Rank
D

Amoonguss

Arceus (Fighting)

Arceus (Grass)

Arceus (Ice)

Cloyster

Excadrill

Gliscor

Liepard

Sableye

Slowbro (Mega)

Whimsicott

Blacklisted Discussion
Please refrain from discussion on ranking these Pokémon.

FEAR Mons (Aron, Magnemite, Probopass, e.t.c.)
After hexandwhy's valiant quest to get Magnemite ranked, discussion on ranking these Pokémon has been banned as they are gimmicky options with more flaws than advantages. Their guaranteed loss after Stealth Rock only further demonstrates their uselessness.

Numel
This Pokémon offers one thing, the checking of SwagPlay Klefki. Although this is a nice trait to have, it's still completely and utterly unviable. It gets OHKOd by the whole entire metagame (bar non HP Water Klefki, which is a thing on full Klefki teams), it's dead weight if an opponent doesn't have a Klefki, Diancie checks Klefki and many other Pokémon simultaneously. This Pokémon is only used on joke teams.

^
imo Mewtwo should get to A rank.A Stall Mewtwo could defeat most physical ceus or a bulk set-up ceus with the ability Unnerve and the moves Taunt,Will-O-Wisp,Recover.
Thus, Offensive Life Orb Mewtwo could ohko a single physical offense arceus with Focus Blast after rocks being set up.At last,Mewtwo breaks most stally poks

Idk if this is a legit nominate reply...

 

[MZ]

^
imo Mewtwo should get to A rank.A Stall Mewtwo could defeat most physical ceus or a bulk set-up ceus with the ability Unnerve and the moves Taunt,Will-O-Wisp,Recover.
Thus, Offensive Life Orb Mewtwo could ohko a single physical offense arceus with Focus Blast after rocks being set up.At last,Mewtwo breaks most stally poks

Idk if this is a legit nominate reply...

Nominating mewtwo itself is legitimate, but normally you want slightly more substance. For example, I could say that Genesect can OHKO Darkrai even behind a sub and checks xerneas pretty nicely and it still wouldn't be enough to actually get it to move up. 2 sentences about things it beats without much context doesn't really explain why this mon got/is better than we thought and why it's more justifiable on a team or overall threatening than Pogre or Lugia. I'm actually pretty neutral on this but the nom doesn't really explain why we should move this up.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Luckily, (or perhaps unluckily, depending on what you think of my argument), I'd also like to support Mewtwo rising, for more reasons than outlined above.

First off, Mewtwo is versatile. It has a stalltwo set as used by Black Schatten, a Calm mind set, an offensive LO 4 attacks set, and even a stallbreaker set to further keep the opponent geussing. It even has some choice sets I've seen used on occasion. It fits on nearly all playstyles, and few teams are harmed for having it.

Secondly, It has unpredictability. Outside of the previous versatility, it also has a wide theoretical coverage to screw over many would be checks and counters. It also has two mega forms, one of which plays slightly differently and the other of which plays completely differently- you are almost never sure what set your opponent is running.

Thirdly, it has stats. 130 speed puts it faster than almost everything relevant, allowing it to tie and potentially ko MGar, outspeed and Taunt/Fblast Darkrai, stop Arceus forms from using utility moves, and avoid Shaymin-S' flinchax. Its nice defenses allow it to sponge a few hits, especially with hp investment and unnerve WoW. It's focus blast has a chance to ohko ekiller (almost 100 after rocks) due to its high spa, and it picks up a lot of key kills.

Mewtwo's versatility isn't just theoretical, though- Its not somekind of mon that would only be amazing if it got its entire movepool. With a simple LO set of taunt, Ice Beam, Psystrike, and Focus blast, it completely savages most teams and only really wants stealth rocks in terms of support. With said rocks, it ohkos ekiller, OHKO's Mray, and makes stall despise switching to block taunt. It stops support arceus from defogging, defeats Mega Diancie, and makes headaches disappear.

Of course, Mewtwo has always had these, so why should it move now? While I'm inclined to believe it was missranked to start with, recent changes in the metagame have made using Mewtwo even more of an attractive option. Just recently, Hunter proved the general viability of stall in AG, and its been on a bit of an uptick since, which is nice because Mewtwo does amazingly both on and against stall.
Secondly, for some reason I'm not sure of, Klefki has been on a bit of a decline (possibly the increase of stall? Or maybe its just not doing as well?), meaning that Mewtwo (and all mons reliant on their speed) is doing much better.

Black Schatten, did you have anything else you wanted to add?

 

[Josh]

Alright, so I'm going to make some big nominations here.

First off, I don't think Xerneas and Primal Groudon are S rank threats in AG. They simply aren't on the same level as Arceus, Mega Rayquaza, and Darkrai to me. Those 3 are the very definition of meta-defining forces. Arceus is very versatile, has a ton of sets, and has the most powerful priority in AG which is very important to keep the other huge threats in check. Mega Rayquaza is famous for basically creating the existence of AG, and with those stats and movepool coupled with a nice ability its easy to see why. Darkrai is an insane stallbreaker, possibly the most annoying Pokemon to face bar Klefki, and can get past literally all of its checks. Primal Groudon and Xerneas simply aren't as threatening as them. Xerneas suffers from all the priority in the meta, and Amoonguss being hyped right now doesn't exactly help. I'm not gonna go on and on analyzing them, they're definitely great mons, but my point is that Xerneas and Pdon are simply less threatening than the other 3 S ranked Pokemon.

However, then they'd be in A+. A+ would now consist of Fairyceus, Ghostceus, Gengar, Pdon, Ho-Oh, Klefki, and Xerneas. I can see Ho-Oh and Gengar on the same level as Pdon and Xern, but the others simply aren't as good. I'd actually see Klefki and Ghost/Fairyceus on the same level as Diancie and Yveltal, but then Arceus Ground needs to drop to A-. Arceus Water also needs to move up to A in my opinion, its extremely good as a wall because nearly nothing has super effective coverage for it (Zekrom lol). The other mons in A- are either just not as good, or require too much support (Lugia can't function without Defog).

Oh, and let's bring Arceus Poison up to B-. It's a far better fairy check than Steelceus, because xerneas can't just focus blast it in the face. Conveniently, it arguably checks Lugia even better than Steelceus, because not only is it immune to Toxic but it also has a 30% chance to status it each time it uses its main stab. I find it to be a really underrated mon and definitely worthy of a rise. Also, unlike other mons in the low ranks, its been on one of the top rmts in AG history, curve's.

 

[Funbot28]

Alright, so I'm going to make some big nominations here.

First off, I don't think Xerneas and Primal Groudon are S rank threats in AG. They simply aren't on the same level as Arceus, Mega Rayquaza, and Darkrai to me. Those 3 are the very definition of meta-defining forces. Arceus is very versatile, has a ton of sets, and has the most powerful priority in AG which is very important to keep the other huge threats in check. Mega Rayquaza is famous for basically creating the existence of AG, and with those stats and movepool coupled with a nice ability make it easy to see why. Darkrai is an insane stallbreaker, possibly the most annoying Pokemon to face bar Klefki, and can get past literally all of its checks. Primal Groudon and Xerneas simply aren't as threatening as them. Xerneas suffers from all the priority in the meta, and Amoonguss being hyped right now doesn't exactly help. I'm not gonna go on and on analyzing them, they're definitely great mons, but my point is that Xerneas and Pdon are simply less threatening than the other 3 S ranked Pokemon.

However, then they'd be in A+. A+ would now consist of Fairyceus, Ghostceus, Gengar, Pdon, Ho-Oh, Klefki, and Xerneas. I can see Ho-Oh and Gengar on the same level as Pdon and Xern, but the others simply aren't as good. I'd actually see Klefki and Ghost/Fairyceus on the same level as Diancie and Yveltal, but then Arceus Ground needs to drop to A-. Arceus Water also needs to move up to A in my opinion, its extremely good as a wall because nearly nothing has super effective coverage for it (Zekrom lol). The other mons in A- are either just not as good, or require too much support (Lugia can't function without Defog).

Oh, and let's bring Arceus Poison up to B-. It's a far better fairy check than Steelceus, because xerneas can't just focus blast it in the face. Conveniently, it arguably checks Lugia even better than Steelceus, because not only is it immune to Toxic but it also has a 30% chance to status it each time it uses its main stab. I find it to be a really underrated mon and definitely worthy of a rise. Also, unlike other mons in the low ranks, its been on one of the top rmts in AG history, curve's.

I mean I can see the argument for Xerneas dropping due to the fact that its very linear and inconsistent if it consumes its Power Herb. It has pretty effective checks in Ho-Oh, Klefki, Primal Groudon, and Arceus-Steel just ti name a few. So yeah i can agree on that, although i cant deny that's its one of the most threatening offensive presences in the meta.

However, Primal Groudon is just too diverse and splashable to be placed lower than S. It sets up hazards, phase sweepers, be a sweeper itself, etc.. I definitely feel its on par with the rest of S-Rank due to how omnipresent it is in AG. It also blanket checks top threats in Xerneas, Primal Kyogre, Klefki, Arceus-Fairy, etc... P-Don is just too good and should definitely not drop imo.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Alright, so I'm going to make some big nominations here.

First off, I don't think Xerneas and Primal Groudon are S rank threats in AG. They simply aren't on the same level as Arceus, Mega Rayquaza, and Darkrai to me. Those 3 are the very definition of meta-defining forces. Arceus is very versatile, has a ton of sets, and has the most powerful priority in AG which is very important to keep the other huge threats in check. Mega Rayquaza is famous for basically creating the existence of AG, and with those stats and movepool coupled with a nice ability make it easy to see why. Darkrai is an insane stallbreaker, possibly the most annoying Pokemon to face bar Klefki, and can get past literally all of its checks. Primal Groudon and Xerneas simply aren't as threatening as them. Xerneas suffers from all the priority in the meta, and Amoonguss being hyped right now doesn't exactly help. I'm not gonna go on and on analyzing them, they're definitely great mons, but my point is that Xerneas and Pdon are simply less threatening than the other 3 S ranked Pokemon.

However, then they'd be in A+. A+ would now consist of Fairyceus, Ghostceus, Gengar, Pdon, Ho-Oh, Klefki, and Xerneas. I can see Ho-Oh and Gengar on the same level as Pdon and Xern, but the others simply aren't as good. I'd actually see Klefki and Ghost/Fairyceus on the same level as Diancie and Yveltal, but then Arceus Ground needs to drop to A-. Arceus Water also needs to move up to A in my opinion, its extremely good as a wall because nearly nothing has super effective coverage for it (Zekrom lol). The other mons in A- are either just not as good, or require too much support (Lugia can't function without Defog).

Oh, and let's bring Arceus Poison up to B-. It's a far better fairy check than Steelceus, because xerneas can't just focus blast it in the face. Conveniently, it arguably checks Lugia even better than Steelceus, because not only is it immune to Toxic but it also has a 30% chance to status it each time it uses its main stab. I find it to be a really underrated mon and definitely worthy of a rise. Also, unlike other mons in the low ranks, its been on one of the top rmts in AG history, curve's.

This seems like a pretty good step; or, well, most of it does.
On Xerneas and PDon, definitely. Xerneas can be a huge momentum sink, especially since niether set can reliably/enjoys switching inon the threats they hit super effectively (Mray, Darkrai, etc, all fairy weak mons bar Dragon Arceus or non koff Yveltal), and has some fairly solid and viable walls like Klefki, Poison Arc, and Amoongus as well as weaker choices like Aegislash and Scizor.
PDon has different problems, but they are just as annoying. Offensive variants allow arc to set up to +2 in a 1v1, while bulky variants have to spam roar or pray for hax vs common moms such as MRay and Normal Arc.
Ghost is I can also see, as bulky variants take barely less from each that they do from speed, and offensive variants are reliant on focus blast to win 1v1.

Klefki and Fairy Arceus, to me at least, are a definite no. Keys are just as annoying as they always were, play havoc with teambuilding (tell me the last time you built offense without multiple lum mons or Mega Diancie), And if you say they are just for Darkrai your kidding yourself. It's an amazing team supporter, it walls half the metagame, and there's not a mon in the game bar like sub lum groudon it can't screw over with the right move. It beats Xerneas, most support emus, walls toxic, ignores (mostly, and vs rai it enjoys it) Twave, it resists espeed, walls Yveltal; it's just so amazing as a glue I don't know what to say.

Fairyceus is also, in my opinion, as good as it's always been. It can beat nearly everything, and is unique in being quite the closest thing MRay has to a guaranteed counter. It has no set switchins (ho-ho? Have fun with toxic. PDon? Roar, defensive toxic, offensive ep, etc. Keys? Have fun dealing damage, while it eps/magic coats). Dual status is all but impossible to find a switchin for on offense, and you can't really even tell it's set from team composition. It's a solid glue on teams weak to high ranked mons, and the mons that beat it's sets are notable for it- ho-oh, steeleus, and ferro are, to a large extent, usable because they beat it. It's just to good at the moment to justify dropping.

As for water arc, I haven't used it or encountered it, so I'll leave it up to others.

Edit: def move poison arc up, it's great. I'll elaborate more if needed.

 

[TheHungrySage]

Alright, so I'm going to make some big nominations here.

First off, I don't think Xerneas and Primal Groudon are S rank threats in AG. They simply aren't on the same level as Arceus, Mega Rayquaza, and Darkrai to me. Those 3 are the very definition of meta-defining forces. Arceus is very versatile, has a ton of sets, and has the most powerful priority in AG which is very important to keep the other huge threats in check. Mega Rayquaza is famous for basically creating the existence of AG, and with those stats and movepool coupled with a nice ability its easy to see why. Darkrai is an insane stallbreaker, possibly the most annoying Pokemon to face bar Klefki, and can get past literally all of its checks. Primal Groudon and Xerneas simply aren't as threatening as them. Xerneas suffers from all the priority in the meta, and Amoonguss being hyped right now doesn't exactly help. I'm not gonna go on and on analyzing them, they're definitely great mons, but my point is that Xerneas and Pdon are simply less threatening than the other 3 S ranked Pokemon.

However, then they'd be in A+. A+ would now consist of Fairyceus, Ghostceus, Gengar, Pdon, Ho-Oh, Klefki, and Xerneas. I can see Ho-Oh and Gengar on the same level as Pdon and Xern, but the others simply aren't as good. I'd actually see Klefki and Ghost/Fairyceus on the same level as Diancie and Yveltal, but then Arceus Ground needs to drop to A-. Arceus Water also needs to move up to A in my opinion, its extremely good as a wall because nearly nothing has super effective coverage for it (Zekrom lol). The other mons in A- are either just not as good, or require too much support (Lugia can't function without Defog).

Oh, and let's bring Arceus Poison up to B-. It's a far better fairy check than Steelceus, because xerneas can't just focus blast it in the face. Conveniently, it arguably checks Lugia even better than Steelceus, because not only is it immune to Toxic but it also has a 30% chance to status it each time it uses its main stab. I find it to be a really underrated mon and definitely worthy of a rise. Also, unlike other mons in the low ranks, its been on one of the top rmts in AG history, curve's.

Seconding this. Primal Groudon definitely is not S rank material, I think most AG players realize this. Xerneas is a very good Pokemon, but compared tot he other Pokemon in S rank it just isn't quite good enough.

Supporting Water-Arceus as well. It is a great wall at the moment, with nothing popular hitting it well. Once Zekrom gets realized as a top tier threat (since it clearly is) it will take a fall in viability, but for now it's once of the best walls in the meta, and is better than A-.

I was against Poison-Arceus rising at first glance, but looking at what B- consists of I now support it. Apart from the general usefulness of an Arceus form it deals with Xerneas really well, even disgusting Psychic sets. The 30% chance of poison on Poison Jab also shouldn't be ignored, as it gives it more versatility. It is clearly not one of the best Arceus, but it's good enough for B-.

Nomming Zekrom for S because it's a pretty good Pokemon.

 

[MZ]

Two people have remarked on the fact that Pdon and Xern are worse than the other 3 S ranks. I do not disagree with the fact that they are less offensively threatening and generally worse than them. But they're also better than everything in A+, more splashable than a ton of mons, and hold some really unique niches. Frankly if anything I feel like people are undervaluing Xern, it's the best scarfer in the meta, a great way to slap on something which will check certain darkrai variants depending on its set, and geomancy is more threatening than you think it is (if we didn't have to worry about geoxern, poisonceus would be a lot worse). Meanwhile Pdon is very easy to fit onto teams and solid in everything that it does, and another mon that's just generally pretty hard to switch into. I wouldn't necessarily be against doing a VR overhaul but I'm totally unconvinced that S rank needs a change. Waterceus is fine, poisonceus is fine, but I also don't like dropping Groundceus when it's such an incredibly effective offensive threat right now. I'm not sure why its pure strength after a single SD is being slept on, but its hitting for about 3% less than LO frustration from Ekiller with its EQ and certainly cleaning with a stronger attack than Espeed. Oh and support is fine I guess, CM is solid. But yeah I still like this mon a lot, and while I'm over the drop from A+ I'm not ready to see it go down further.

 

[dsm77773]

Leaving a couple of my teams that I think they're good enough to be used as sample teams. Any improvement is appreciated, thanks.

Glalie team

Glalie @ Leftovers
Ability: Moody
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Frost Breath

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Swagger
- Substitute
- Foul Play
- Thunder Wave

Arceus @ Lum Berry
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Judgment
- Recover
- Toxic

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 236 HP / 36 Atk / 216 Def / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Fire Punch
- Precipice Blades

Diancie-Mega @ Diancite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Earth Power
- Diamond Storm

Genesect team

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 248 Atk / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Ice Beam
- Bug Buzz

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 236 HP / 36 Atk / 216 Def / 20 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Fire Punch
- Precipice Blades

Arceus-Water @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Recover
- Toxic
- Defog
- Judgment

Arceus @ Lum Berry
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge

Yveltal @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Dark Aura
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Def / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
- Foul Play
- Taunt
- Sucker Punch
- Roost

Rayquaza-Mega @ Lum Berry
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Two people have remarked on the fact that Pdon and Xern are worse than the other 3 S ranks. I do not disagree with the fact that they are less offensively threatening and generally worse than them. But they're also better than everything in A+, more splashable than a ton of mons, and hold some really unique niches. Frankly if anything I feel like people are undervaluing Xern, it's the best scarfer in the meta, a great way to slap on something which will check certain darkrai variants depending on its set, and geomancy is more threatening than you think it is (if we didn't have to worry about geoxern, poisonceus would be a lot worse). Meanwhile Pdon is very easy to fit onto teams and solid in everything that it does, and another mon that's just generally pretty hard to switch into. I wouldn't necessarily be against doing a VR overhaul but I'm totally unconvinced that S rank needs a change. Waterceus is fine, poisonceus is fine, but I also don't like dropping Groundceus when it's such an incredibly effective offensive threat right now. I'm not sure why its pure strength after a single SD is being slept on, but its hitting for about 3% less than LO frustration from Ekiller with its EQ and certainly cleaning with a stronger attack than Espeed. Oh and support is fine I guess, CM is solid. But yeah I still like this mon a lot, and while I'm over the drop from A+ I'm not ready to see it go down further.

Not disagreeing about it not falling (its a major headache for me, and a rank is fine imo) but how is it hitting for 3% less? (note: set is just for demonstration purposes, not an actual blissey set)
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Frustration vs. 188 HP / 28+ Def Blissey: 698-823 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 188 HP / 28+ Def Blissey: 633-745 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

That's easily an 11% difference. Further, in every situation (bar typing) that Groundceus can clean with EQ, Ekiller can use Frustration. Now obviously EKiller is S and Groundceus is A, but the point is is that damage isn't the selling point of Ground Arc- its the typing, plus the CM sets. Partial stab edgequake, twave immunity, the ability to beat ground weak mons easily is a better argument than its power.

 

[MZ]

Oh yeah I was calcing unboosted, at +2 the differences are more apparent. Also eq is still generally nice to have when ferrothorn is really good rn, u have shit like keys and w/e running around, etc but thanks for the correction. The point was that, without needing to chip urself with LO or w/e, ur still almost as strong as LO Frustration which people only run over lum better move because it's the harder hitting option

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Oh yeah I was calcing unboosted, at +2 the differences are more apparent. Also eq is still generally nice to have when ferrothorn is really good rn, u have shit like keys and w/e running around, etc but thanks for the correction. The point was that, without needing to chip urself with LO or w/e, ur still almost as strong as LO Frustration which people only run over lum better move because it's the harder hitting option

I'm sorry to do this again, but I still really don't understand just where you are getting this from. In order-
I was also calcing unboosted. I didnt mean it dealt 11% more of their health, I meant it was an 11% stronger attack (which makes sense, as 30>20 and 102>100.
Vs ferro it is nice (as with Giratina, or and normal resist/immunity not named gengar/drifblim) I'm not really sure what your getting at here, except maybe to reinforce how much better an offensive type ground is. Ferro also feels like a bad example, as if they decide to carry power whip you are screwed and you aren't 2hkoing regardless (and thus are stuck 3hkoing with ekiller).
Yes, it's almost as strong as lo frustration, and lo frustration is run over better coverage for power. Hello? It's stab, that's literally what it's for.

 

[MZ]

yes, I was just saying that ground stab is nice because you called frustration ekiller a better cleaner in general in "every situation" and I was just saying there's some common shit going around right now where it isn't the superior cleaning move. Also power whip ferro is really rare in my experience because you have one open slot and a ton of better moves but w/e it's a nitpick anyway
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Frustration vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 175-207 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 159-187 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

today I learned that calcs just have different damage variation separations depending on the opposing mon's defenses. huh. That's what I meant by 5%. Anyway since Arceus (and things with better phys def than blissey) is one of the more relevant things it's likely not a 10% differential.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

yes, I was just saying that ground stab is nice because you called frustration ekiller a better cleaner in general in "every situation" and I was just saying there's some common shit going around right now where it isn't the superior cleaning move. Also power whip ferro is really rare in my experience because you have one open slot and a ton of better moves but w/e it's a nitpick anyway
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Frustration vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Ground: 175-207 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 159-187 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

today I learned that calcs just have different damage variation separations depending on the opposing mon's defenses. huh. That's what I meant by 5%. Anyway since Arceus (and things with better phys def than blissey) is one of the more relevant things it's likely not a 10% differential.

What. Seriously, what.
I didn't call is a better cleaner in every situation, I just said that in every situation where priority is unimportant enough that arc ground doesn't use espeed, arc normal is also free to abandon priority for a coverage/power option, and thus it's power should really only be compared to frustration. I literally said that every normal resist was a reason not to use frustration, and that ground was a better attacking type.
I didn't know it was that rare, but the point remains that eq isn't doing that much to it regardless and ferrothorn could theoretically screw it over more than it could ekiller.
I said, once again, that it's a 10% power differential. LO FRover EP EQ is the same as adamant over jolly. That difference is the same in every situation.



Also as a complete side note, how did you think variation worked?

 

[MZ]

just reread what both of us said pls

 

[PumpedAaron]

My current rank on Anything Goes is around 1500, so I'm still kind of new to it, but I was wondering where I can find RMTs for Anything Goes?

 

[Chloe]

My current rank on Anything Goes is around 1500, so I'm still kind of new to it, but I was wondering where I can find RMTs for Anything Goes?

This question is more suitable for the regular AG thread found here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/anything-goes.3523229/

You can find AG RMTs in the ORAS Other Teams subforum here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/oras-other-teams.292/ under the Other Metagames tag. There are quite a few, so you do have a selection.

Otherwise, there are sample teams in the OP of this thread. Feel free to use those as well.

 

[HunterStorm]

Noms time (It's been a while)

Groudon-Primal : S - A+
This will be fun.
Good mon, taking nothing away from it. Not S rank, though. I haven't seen P dong have a significant impact on games for a long, long time. Starting to become pretty ordinary as a rock setter due to better options being used more and more. The offensive sets are barely note-worthy. It does a lot of things, but doesn't do anything which makes it worth being called as one of the best mons of the meta. No recovery is a bitch. I don't think anyone has used it significantly well since AG started. It's always been a mon that "is there, and is doing big things" but no one knows what exactly those "big things" are. Some of the mons in the A ranks are better suited to take its place, tbh.
(Please keep in mind that A+ is fairly high; I am not saying P dong is a bad mon. It just isn't good enough to have the highest rank possible.)

Deoxys Attack : B+ - B-/C+
Highly underwhelming at everything it does. We've had sufficient proof that Deoxys Speed outclasses it as a lead in AG. It dies to the faintest of moves and fails to function as anything other than a lead because of rocks. Even if it does somehow manage to come in mid/late game w/o rocks on, it'll still be quite underwhelming. Loses entirely to Msab as a lead, loses to at least 50% of the meta mid game (without rocks) and can be set up fodder after the SpA drop. I'd prefer C+, but it definitely needs to drop to at least B-.

Genesect : B- - C/C+
Stop kidding yourself, Zang, this needs to drop. It's been nommed multiple times in the past, and for fair reasons. I'd be happy if it drops further in the future, but being in the C ranks is fine for now.

Arceus Poison : C+ - B-
The only legit Arceus form (which is viable) that beats Xern. Nice STAB, pretty good overall. Brilliant synergy with Mray. It has its flaws, but probably worth being in the B ranks.

Jirachi : C - B-
Why is this below Genesect? Does similar things with the added perks of being a great trick user, access to healing wish and double the chance of flinchhax. Is considerably more bulky than Genesect, too. Quite a brilliant Xern check, while doing fairly nice vs everything else that isn't named P dong/Ho oh. It gets healing wish/trick to break stall and turn games around. Criminally underrated, at times. PLEASE push this.

Forretress : Unranked - D
Hear me out. First of all, being the only nice tspikes + SR user makes it exclusively good at what it does. Access to rapid spin + sturdy is great. It slaps on a custap berry to get an additional hazard up/remove hazard from your field. Gyro hits most taunt users quite hard. Also, I've come to realize that everything that stops forretress is weak to Scarf xern (more or less). If I agreed this to be unranked in the past, I stand corrected. It is, although barely, viable.

 

[Chloe]

Mewtwo | A- to A

I don't necessarily agree with this nomination, and by the looks of things others seem to be neutral on the topic as well. I just feel your point of it being able to run multiple sets leaves out the poor viability of StallTwo, as many Arceus formes and Unaware Pokémon can do what it does, better. StallTwo just isn't a great set within the AG metagame. I also find the offensive variants underwhelming when compared to Xerneas, Offensive Yveltal and CM Arceus formes; but it has many perks going for it including its speed tier and access to Psystrike, so I will give it that. Considering this, I feel A- is a much more natural fit.

Groudon-Primal | S to A+

Primal Groudon may be the worst S rank, and its viability is only depleting as Waterfall Mega Rayquaza and Life Orb Extreme Killer rise in usage. However, I still see it as a much more viable threat than the current A+ ranks. I also believe that the current ladder is quite mixed in terms of playstyles, where Primal Groudon can really just work against most. I always had thought that our S rank was perfect, the five Pokémon seemed to be the centralisation of the tier, and were all extremely viable. I definitely don't think it should be dropped. However, I'd like to see the opinions of others as this is a major change and it should be discussed thoroughly. One idea I contemplated was the implementation of an S- subrank, just to place Primal Groudon, potentially Xerneas and any superior A+ ranks. I'll leave a greater rebuttal if this point continues to the point where everyone is convinced it should drop.

Deoxys-Attack | B+ to B-

Not C+, I'm fine with B- or B though.

Genesect | B- to C+

Concur.

Jirachi | C+ to B-

Concur.

Forretress | Unranked to D

I was against it being unranked in the first place, but Megazard thought it should be and I didn't really care enough to refute it. I'd support it returning to D.

Xerneas | S to A+

See Primal Groudon post, similar thoughts; however, I think Xerneas is good enough to stay in S. I would never, in a million years, support this dropping to A+. S- maybe, but we'll have to wait and see what people think. I also don't believe a shift of that proportion is needed, but I do see the logic. I need to see others' opinions, since I feel my Xerneas bias is just making me have tunnel-vision.

 

[Josh]

i'm strongly against deoxys-attack dropping.

We've had sufficient proof that Deoxys Speed outclasses it as a lead in AG.

In general, sure if you want to sack a mon to get rocks up and possibly a layer of spikes/screens and make it a 5v6, sure, deo-s does it best for ho. But the difference is, deo-a can actually potentially pick up a kill while it's leading, and isn't dead weight if you lose the 50/50 with diancie or sableye. and really, because of how easy it is to slap a defog arceus on any team that needs rocks off, deo-s ho really isn't the best in ag.

It dies to the faintest of moves and fails to function as anything other than a lead because of rocks. Even if it does somehow manage to come in mid/late game w/o rocks on, it'll still be quite underwhelming.

Or use this magic thing called Life Orb! Not every mon has espeed you know, and even if they do it's a 50/50 because if you switch to your Skarm, Bulkyveltal, or another espeed absorber which you should always have with lo deo-a, then you picked up a kill and they didn't do jack shit! The thing is, that doesn't sound too great until you realize for that to happen deo-a has already picked up a kill and pulled its weight. Also, having an espeed that is faster than Arceus gives you a way to revenge kill a weakened ekiller (and it will be weakened if you play right because this is ag and everything bar stall hits hard) that isn't just winning a speed tie.

Loses entirely to Msab as a lead

252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Mega Sableye: 144-170 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
^ya foul play obviously kos you back, its not a good matchup. But you have to realize, this is stall's best deo-a answer, yes ho-oh is a thing but if you need to account for it more than sableye its not hard to slap on rock slide instead. If your best answer gets 2HKO'd on the switchin, that's not good. If you see your opp has a sab in preview why would you lead deo-a in the first place, save it for later >_>.

loses to at least 50% of the meta mid game (without rocks)

No, it doesn't. At least 80% of the mons lose to one of its two sets (sash and life orb). Before you say it, yes, I realize you don't have both at once. But they don't know that until you drop an attack. If they espeed your sashed deo-a, rip ekiller and deo-a already pulled its weight. If they go to sab on the lo ice beam, goodbye only check. Not to mention the ridiculous coverage this things gets, so if your team is weak to any particular mon chances are deo-a can hit it.

and can be set up fodder after the SpA drop

Really? What's setting up on it?
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Xerneas: 195-230 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
68 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-A Extreme Speed vs. 184 HP / 28 Def Xerneas: 133-157 (30.2 - 35.7%) -- 38% chance to 3HKO
Just an example that it still hits hard. Don't forget just about all deo-a sets run mixed, so most things drop to whatever side of your attack didn't drop.


I'd also like to know what changed to make deo-a worse. From what I can see, stall and balance is becoming more popular, which deo-a thrives on because they don't typically carry much priority. You just spouted a lot of "facts" about it, but nothing has actually changed to make it worse and you want it to drop 3 subranks? That's not how it should work.





On the topic of unranked > ranked noms: in my opinion they shouldn't be considered until you can show us at least one viable team where that mon is the optimal choice. If that can't be done, then it isn't worth it to rank a mon, because this is a resource for new players and if the best can't build with it how could they? Afaik Forre is completely outclassed by other suicide leads, but hey, if you show me a team and some replays showcasing Forre I'll happily reconsider.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I don't necessarily agree with this nomination, and by the looks of things others seem to be neutral on the topic as well. I just feel your point of it being able to run multiple sets leaves out the poor viability of StallTwo, as many Arceus formes and Unaware Pokémon can do what it does, better. StallTwo just isn't a great set within the AG metagame. I also find the offensive variants underwhelming when compared to Xerneas, Offensive Yveltal and CM Arceus formes; but it has many perks going for it including its speed tier and access to Psystrike, so I will give it that. Considering this, I feel A- is a much more natural fit.

I don't really think they do, though. Unlike Arc, Mewtwo can outspeed opposing Arceus and use taunt, isn't darkrai prey, can ignore lum berries, and can hold leftovers/lum, which is really great. It also stops rocks rather than just removing them, which can be huge, and beats Clefable/support arc/(can beat) MGar, which is very nice.
Offensively, it has the again advantage over cm arc of outspeeding opposing arc and rai, while not losing to Ho-Oh is really sweet. (it also beats Clefable, but Steelceus and a few others can do the same), and life orb+better spa is a huge boost to damage.

Primal Groudon may be the worst S rank, and its viability is only depleting as Waterfall Mega Rayquaza and Life Orb Extreme Killer rise in usage. However, I still see it as a much more viable threat than the current A+ ranks. I also believe that the current ladder is quite mixed in terms of playstyles, where Primal Groudon can really just work against most. I always had thought that our S rank was perfect, the five Pokémon seemed to be the centralisation of the tier, and were all extremely viable. I definitely don't think it should be dropped. However, I'd like to see the opinions of others as this is a major change and it should be discussed thoroughly. One idea I contemplated was the implementation of an S- subrank, just to place Primal Groudon, potentially Xerneas and any superior A+ ranks. I'll leave a greater rebuttal if this point continues to the point where everyone is convinced it should drop.

This is honestly the better solution, as Xern really is better than A+ Rank (I think PDon isn't, but thats different). The only a+ ranks I could really see going up are klefki and MGar, though.

See Primal Groudon post, similar thoughts; however, I think Xerneas is good enough to stay in S. I would never, in a million years, support this dropping to A+. S- maybe, but we'll have to wait and see what people think. I also don't believe a shift of that proportion is needed, but I do see the logic. I need to see others' opinions, since I feel my Xerneas bias is just making me have tunnel-vision.

Its really, really good, I'd agree, but its overprepared for and heavily matchup reliant- vs some foes, like keys or MGar, its way closer to dead weight than any S-Rank ever should be. I understand why its there right now, but it doesn't sit well with me and I think that S- rank would probably be a good compromise.

 

[MZ]

I don't really think they do, though. Unlike Arc, Mewtwo can outspeed opposing Arceus and use taunt, isn't darkrai prey, can ignore lum berries, and can hold leftovers/lum, which is really great. It also stops rocks rather than just removing them, which can be huge, and beats Clefable/support arc/(can beat) MGar, which is very nice.
Offensively, it has the again advantage over cm arc of outspeeding opposing arc and rai, while not losing to Ho-Oh is really sweet. (it also beats Clefable, but Steelceus and a few others can do the same), and life orb+better spa is a huge boost to damage.


Its really, really good, I'd agree, but its overprepared for and heavily matchup reliant- vs some foes, like keys or MGar, its way closer to dead weight than any S-Rank ever should be. I understand why its there right now, but it doesn't sit well with me and I think that S- rank would probably be a good compromise.

You cant fit all of those positive traits for mewtwo on one set though, which kinda sucks because stalltwo can annoy arceus and offensive is a cool breaker but they're both going to suffer from inverse problems in being sorta checked back by a lot of teams and stalltwo really isn't that bulky to take on a lot of stuff. If people are looking at Pdon and calling it a generally lower than the other S ranks threat, I think the same idea applies to Mewtwo here that it's really not as easy to fit on a team or straight up effective at what it does compared to Groundceus/Yveltal/Diancie.
As far as Pdon dropping, I don't agree that it's not as splashable or solid as the other S ranks, its still excellent at performing its easy to need niche. It's never dead weight in a matchup and people often underrate how useful offensive sets can be, similar to how geoxern somehow gets sorta slept on even though we're using goddamn poisonceus for it. However, I do think xern is closer to the lower ranks. It's just not as effective as checking darkrai as it wants to be and it often has issues setting up while being at a high enough health to not drop to the next espeed. I'm still totally fine with it in S rank but xern suffers from more notable matchup flaws than Pdon (I'd seriously like to know what matchup ur pdon is gonna be useless in lol). As for S-, I don't think it's necessary. We have some really small A ranks, 13 in total with uneven distribution, and it's just easier as is to use what we have and rearrange for a revamp like Yelawolf suggested rather than create even more divisions. I'm no on both although not exceptionally against but S- still seems like an unnecessary change.

Also forry really isn't a very good mon lol, there's not much more to it. We already have plenty of suicide leads so I agree that justification would be really really nice but based on hunter's description we're talking about gyro/spin/rocks/tspikes custap which is total removal fodder and not a threat to any non fairy type and in general is a really lackluster way to start off ur strong HO squad. Yes, I was the dude who wanted it unranked with some other garbage, I really don't see a reason to use it over other sui setters. Like ur niche is having tspikes (exca removes and is better so spin isn't rly huge and custap doesnt matter when u don't even have boom to stop removal) and tspikes are in general kind of lackluster. Plus it's incredibly easy to slap rocks on shit, might as well run scolipede if I'm being completely honest. But yeah this mon was just so awful when I tried to use it and I'm totally against...pending some exceptionally great proof which I cant rly see happening
Gene/rachi/poisonceus duh, rather leave deo in B because it's just such a slept on offensive monster but not too concerned