Anything Goes Resources

[HunterStorm]

Well, let's take a look at the S-A ranks. Ray, Darkrai, both neutral. Groundceus handles Groudon much better, Steelceus handles Xerneas better and Arceus too but is shaky versus it because +2 EQ etc. Groundceus now is better versus Ho-Oh, Ghostceus, Klefki, and opposing Groundceus, while Steelceus will do better versus Fairyceus and Lugia. Groundceus is about neutral versus Mega Diancie (no resist to STABs but no weakness to Earth Power) and superior vs Mewtwo (one of fire or focus blast is essential, ice beam is not and is weaker), Primal Kyogre (physical does a good chunk, CM Steelceus is not nearly as good versus it although neither appreciate the matchup) and Yveltal is neutral imo since Groundceus either carries SD+Edge or CM+Ice Beam. Oh, then it's better versus Megagar, Rockceus, Steelceus, and special handles Gira-O. I could go on, but I don't want to and a quick skim shows me it's better versus the common lower ranks as well. And this isn't really a stretch, I'm just counting. When you say "Groundceus is checked by some of the most common threats in the meta" we're basically talking about Megaray, Darkrai, Lugia, and Ho-Oh for the CM sets. Which also can beat Steelceus. Frankly this counting thing is kinda stupid, but since you asked here it is.

Alright, I'll just deal with the inaccuracies in this one by one.
1- Steelceus 2hkos Mray. It is never to be switch-in fodder for Mray and does way better 1v1. That is hardly neutral.
2- Groundceus takes like 45% from Mblast, EP does 50% to Steelceus. Barely a difference, and steelceus can actually be used as a switch in to Mdiancie (mblast predict or even otherwise) since it outspeeds Mdiancie. Most Groundceus sets run adamant, which would mean Mblast can 2hko
3- Ice beam is essential on Mewtwo. I have honestly never seen anyone run Mewtwo without ice beam, it is the only way to deal with Y-god and Mray. Fire blast is almost never used in AG, and plenty of people are ditching Fmiss for its inaccuracy. And unlike Groundceus, Steelceus resists mewtwo's stab.
4- Groundceus is better than Steelceus vs P ogre, but it still gets Ohko'd. So it dealing with P ogre isn't really an argument, they both get shat on by P ogre. Steelceus at least can resist Ice beam and tank one pulse, providing some assistance to P don.
5- Bruh, Y-god is setup fodder for Steelceus in all its forms. I have literally never seen Y-god best CM Steelceus, because of o wing doing 0 , but it can do significant damage to SD Groundceus, Ohko'ing the offensive set. I can not possibly fathom how Groundceus will ever do a better job at handling Y god than Steelceus.
6- Steelceus absorbs sludge wave and 2hkos Mgar, allowing for a destiny bond check. Mgar will rarely do well vs Steelceus. Steelceus doesn't mind being burned by Rockceus and resists and ohkos it the same way Groundceus does, so I can't imagine how Groundceus "does better". Gira - O is handled quite easily by Steelceus, too. Again, setup fodder. Meanwhile, Gira-O actually has some significance against Groundceus with wisp/toxic.

Yeah I just disagree on the whole checks thing. In practice it's a very annoying mon to face, extra check to keys, don, and a ton of other stuff (see: big list) and just doesn't merit a drop. The argument is "it has too many checks compared to other things" and I think this is absolutely not the case (hooh has more. Hell, lugia has more if you call p much all pokemon with status and recovery a check seeing as it's crippled for the rest of the game).

Yes, those things you mentioned are checked and checked quite well. But unlike Groundceus, they actually are capable of providing support to a team. They have their perks which are almost too good to pass. Ho oh and Lugia, in particular. The only pro you've mentioned of Groundceus is its versatility when it comes to sets. I do not possibly see how that is enough to rate it as one of the best in AG, as it is almost never going to help anything in a team, has a dozen reliable checks and doesn't check anything reliably. Steelceus/Fairyceus/Ghostceus provide excellent support to teams in many ways. There just hasn't been any justification from you or anyone else why it deserves A+, imo, other than describe it can go both ways, because it has been established how both those sets can be eaten alive. Since it doesn't provide any support or doesn't do anything extraordinary, it comes down to whether or not it has the potential to do what it does unbelievably well. And since the argument here is about Groundceus' offensive presence, it would mean that Groundceus is actually considered as a viable threat to teams on its own, which would never be the case. I am not asking it be dropped to C, I agree it has its possibilities. But in no way does it provide any assistance to a team well enough for it to be A+

 

[MZ]

Alright frankly we're both going to keep pointing out each other's inaccuracies over and over and get nowhere. I was going to do another long response to that disgusting checks list interpretation, but I think I'll just leave off at this. If you're the only one who thinks groundceus should be in a- and you also think adamant is the best nature and groundceus has dozens of reliable checks, maybe this is more due to a lack of knowledge about groundceus than it actually deserving it.

 

[HunterStorm]

Alright frankly we're both going to keep pointing out each other's inaccuracies over and over and get nowhere. I was going to do another long response to that disgusting checks list interpretation, but I think I'll just leave off at this. If you're the only one who thinks groundceus should be in a- and you also think adamant is the best nature and groundceus has dozens of reliable checks, maybe this is more due to a lack of knowledge about groundceus than it actually deserving it.

See, the thing is, while I am actually quoting examples and providing instances where it gets shat on, you're being a 12 year old baby and repeating the same thing over and over again. It's not my lack of knowledge, it's your lack of understanding of what I'm trying to explain. And I am pretty sure I am not the only one who thinks Groundceus being A+ is more than it deserves.

 

[MZ]

See, the thing is, while I am actually quoting examples and providing instances where it gets shat on, you're being a 12 year old baby and repeating the same thing over and over again. It's not my lack of knowledge, it's your lack of understanding of what I'm trying to explain. And I am pretty sure I am not the only one who thinks Groundceus being A+ is more than it deserves.

If you want me to write a long-ass response, just ask me to. Quit the "12 year old baby" insults if you want to get anywhere. And if other people think Groundceus should drop, how about they post. They might think so but I don't see evidence of it so what else should I think? Maybe they could add some new perspective, because I understand you, just think ur wrong lol. And how is you repeating "it sucks because it has checks" any better? Anyway, you've successfully baited the long response. Congrats!

Alright, I'll just deal with the inaccuracies in this one by one.

Starting off with a flawed concept in the first place seems like a good idea. Again, these were only examples since you brought up the idea that it loses 1v1 to more things than steelceus. It's an irrelevant point to begin with, especially when you consider the trade of being better offensively vs beating things 1v1.

1- Steelceus 2hkos Mray. It is never to be switch-in fodder for Mray and does way better 1v1. That is hardly neutral.

Specifically responding to this one separately because you keep bringing up how it's awful vs Megaray when I've already posted calcs to show it isn't, not sure how much more I can do here, why I didn't want to keep responding.

2- Groundceus takes like 45% from Mblast, EP does 50% to Steelceus. Barely a difference, and steelceus can actually be used as a switch in to Mdiancie (mblast predict or even otherwise) since it outspeeds Mdiancie. Most Groundceus sets run adamant, which would mean Mblast can 2hko
3- Ice beam is essential on Mewtwo. I have honestly never seen anyone run Mewtwo without ice beam, it is the only way to deal with Y-god and Mray. Fire blast is almost never used in AG, and plenty of people are ditching Fmiss for its inaccuracy. And unlike Groundceus, Steelceus resists mewtwo's stab.

Groundceus does not run Adamant commonly and resists diamond storm and takes way less than earth power, sounds neutral to me. Ice Beam is okay but if you're honestly going to tell me that fire/focus (almost always focus) blast is not essential then what the fuck are you supposed to run and why are you trying to lose to Steels. Please don't say accuracy is a reason to discount a commonly used move, it's not.

4- Groundceus is better than Steelceus vs P ogre, but it still gets Ohko'd. So it dealing with P ogre isn't really an argument, they both get shat on by P ogre.

Make up your mind :v you admitted it's better vs Pogre though, so moving on I guess

Steelceus at least can resist Ice beam and tank one pulse, providing some assistance to P don.

Not sure what the Pdon part means, but Groundceus is doing more with EQ than with 2 resisted judgements or an earth power or somth

5- Bruh, Y-god is setup fodder for Steelceus in all its forms. I have literally never seen Y-god best CM Steelceus, because of o wing doing 0 , but it can do significant damage to SD Groundceus, Ohko'ing the offensive set. I can not possibly fathom how Groundceus will ever do a better job at handling Y god than Steelceus.

I didn't say it's better, I said it's neutral. CM sets up on Yveltal and SD needs very little chip+rocks to just take it out with edge as it switches into SD. Additionally, offensive Yveltal (good but I'll admit this is more rare) can catch Steelceus on the switch with heat wave while Groundceus can switch in and Calm Mind if it's CM. Still, Steelceus fares fine versus defensive and can CM 1v1 vs offensive which is why I think neutral is fair.
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Ground Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 306-362 (67.2 - 79.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Steel: 255-302 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus-Ground: 212-251 (47.7 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

6- Steelceus absorbs sludge wave and 2hkos Mgar, allowing for a destiny bond check. Mgar will rarely do well vs Steelceus. Steelceus doesn't mind being burned by Rockceus and resists and ohkos it the same way Groundceus does, so I can't imagine how Groundceus "does better". Gira - O is handled quite easily by Steelceus, too. Again, setup fodder. Meanwhile, Gira-O actually has some significance against Groundceus with wisp/toxic.

Focus Blast 2hkos Steelceus from offensive gengar (yes, this is standard, wanna argue that too?). It doesn't want to mega vs groundceus but also won't be trapping it or doing too much damage without perfect predictions like not going mega and subbing (if you have that) on judgement/eq or something. My bad on Rockceus though, that is neutral. Gira-O isn't setup fodder for anything when it has dragon tail, wisp is honestly hard to fit on this thing when you already want sneak/eq/defog/shadow force/dragon tail on one set although it would be an issue, and is more threatened by CM groundceus because it runs ice beam. Not to mention...
248+ Atk Giratina-O Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Steel: 192-228 (43.2 - 51.3%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Yes, those things you mentioned are checked and checked quite well. But unlike Groundceus, they actually are capable of providing support to a team.

You're arguing to keep it in the A ranks so just admit it provides support or nom it for c/d

They have their perks which are almost too good to pass. Ho oh and Lugia, in particular.

I honestly have no idea what this means. You're saying the things that Groundceus checks, such as Ho-Oh and Lugia, are good Pokemon, therefore Groundceus sucks? Shouldn't checking good Pokemon be a plus?

The only pro you've mentioned of Groundceus is its versatility when it comes to sets.

I only mentioned that in response to your checks argument. I didn't think there was a need to go over how it's a very threatening sweeper on both sides with great checking utility, solid bulk, etc. but apparently I had to go over why an Arceus form is good? I really don't see the need to explain it in depth.

I do not possibly see how that is enough to rate it as one of the best in AG, as it is almost never going to help anything in a team,

Yes, I often find myself thinking "my arceus form with almost no reliable switchins is really useless. Why am I not using a totally different Pokemon with separate function and typing?"

has a dozen reliable checks and doesn't check anything reliably.

A reliable check does not include something like Ho-Oh which only beats 1 set. This is why I brought up 2 sets, because your dozens of checks argument is just false when you consider the fact that they're only reliable versus half of its sets.

Steelceus/Fairyceus/Ghostceus provide excellent support to teams in many ways.

Yes, and they're ranked highly because they're good. This does not devalue Groundceus. You cannot compare apples to oranges and tell me I should be using something that loses to Pdon instead of a Pdon check or something weak to steel instead of a steel check.

There just hasn't been any justification from you or anyone else why it deserves A+, imo, other than describe it can go both ways, because it has been established how both those sets can be eaten alive.

Because I didn't think I'd need to explain to a good player why Groundceus is good. I shouldn't have to spell this out. You agree it's still fine within the A ranks so you must know the pros of using it. As far as establishing how it gets eaten alive, all I've seen is "these things can't switch in but can win 1v1 versus half of its sets".

Since it doesn't provide any support

lol

or doesn't do anything extraordinary, it comes down to whether or not it has the potential to do what it does unbelievably well.

Yes

And since the argument here is about Groundceus' offensive presence,

This has defensive utility please stop ignoring it. Just go to VR and look for the steel and fire types.

it would mean that Groundceus is actually considered as a viable threat to teams on its own, which would never be the case.

And these aren't bad teams, it's just that their checks are things that you can abuse or wear down with any good team, like slow fairyceus with wisp isn't what I'd call reliable at all. Or ray, bring it in on rocks once and it cant switch in as arc SDs anymore. There's no reason to write this off as an in-self sufficient mon.

I am not asking it be dropped to C,

Then stop playing stupid with "well nobody told me why it's good"

I agree it has its possibilities. But in no way does it provide any assistance to a team well enough for it to be A+

And I disagree. And I don't think there's any merit in a response anymore, not only was it not going anywhere but you've also gotta pull out insults to say shit so really just don't bother. I'm just done with this shit

edit: and can I just say once again how obnoxious "well you might've refuted my points but you didn't explicitly state exactly why Groundceus is good so I'll assume it's bad" is?
edit 2: gxk is a nerd

 

[HunterStorm]

Starting off with a flawed concept in the first place seems like a good idea. Again, these were only examples since you brought up the idea that it loses 1v1 to more things than steelceus. It's an irrelevant point to begin with, especially when you consider the trade of being better offensively vs beating things 1v1.

You are either totally brain dead or you are just trying to piss me off. You quoted these examples as reasons why Steelceus is checked better than Groundceus, an argument which you started. You can't say one thing, elaborate on it (while the elaboration is flawed) and then crib about how stupid the argument is.

Specifically responding to this one separately because you keep bringing up how it's awful vs Megaray when I've already posted calcs to show it isn't, not sure how much more I can do here, why I didn't want to keep responding.

Groundceus does not run Adamant commonly and resists diamond storm and takes way less than earth power, sounds neutral to me. Ice Beam is okay but if you're honestly going to tell me that fire/focus (almost always focus) blast is not essential then what the fuck are you supposed to run and why are you trying to lose to Steels. Please don't say accuracy is a reason to discount a commonly used move, it's not.

This is the last time I am going forth with this argument, so I need you to understand something. One mon is only capable of running one set at a time. We are not ranking its viability based on all the different sets it has, we are ranking it based on how viable each set could be. ALL your calcs for physical Groundceus were adamant calcs. You won't be able to change sets in between a game according to your preference.

I didn't say it's better, I said it's neutral. CM sets up on Yveltal and SD needs very little chip+rocks to just take it out with edge as it switches into SD. Additionally, offensive Yveltal (good but I'll admit this is more rare) can catch Steelceus on the switch with heat wave while Groundceus can switch in and Calm Mind if it's CM. Still, Steelceus fares fine versus defensive and can CM 1v1 vs offensive which is why I think neutral is fair.
+2 252 Atk Arceus-Ground Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 306-362 (67.2 - 79.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Steel: 255-302 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus-Ground: 212-251 (47.7 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I'll try to be as brief and waste as little of my time on this as possible

Offensive Y god is not rare. I don't know when the last time you actually woke up and saw a ladder match (which I think is a part of the problem), but heat wave usage is almost 0 in AG and Steelceus can spam judgment, while blocking o wing recovery (in case taunted)

Focus Blast 2hkos Steelceus from offensive gengar (yes, this is standard, wanna argue that too?). It doesn't want to mega vs groundceus but also won't be trapping it or doing too much damage without perfect predictions like not going mega and subbing (if you have that) on judgement/eq or something. My bad on Rockceus though, that is neutral. Gira-O isn't setup fodder for anything when it has dragon tail, wisp is honestly hard to fit on this thing when you already want sneak/eq/defog/shadow force/dragon tail on one set although it would be an issue, and is more threatened by CM groundceus because it runs ice beam. Not to mention...
248+ Atk Giratina-O Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Steel: 192-228 (43.2 - 51.3%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Agree with most of this. My point was that Steelceus doesn't have to predict a mega evolution in order to spam judgment. Fmiss isn't standard in the AG ladder. It is not rare, but it isn't standard. I am not going to argue on this, check usage stats.
Gira-O isn't used as a physically offensive defogger, stop using Ubers' sets. Wisp/toxic usage is higher than eq, which would mean Groundceus is crippled. They're both neutral to Gira-O, at best, since Judgment 2hkos, anyway.[/quote]

You're arguing to keep it in the A ranks so just admit it provides support or nom it for c/d

What kind of a fucked up statement is that? I am arguing it be lowered because it is not nearly on the same level of viability as Fairyceus/Ghostceus and is definitely not two leagues above Steelceus. Why does that have to mean I nom it for c/d?

I honestly have no idea what this means. You're saying the things that Groundceus checks, such as Ho-Oh and Lugia, are good Pokemon, therefore Groundceus sucks? Shouldn't checking good Pokemon be a plus?

How on earth does Groundceus check Lugia? I can seriously visualise my IQ dropping as this argument goes on. Lugia easily toxic stalls Groundceus. And what I said there was in response to your statement "Lugia and ho oh have more checks than Groundceus". Yes, they do, but they also have some purpose when they are being used in a team and provide support. If I have to repeat how Groundceus doesn't do that or isn't as big a threat individually one more time, I'll quite literally give up on life.

I only mentioned that in response to your checks argument. I didn't think there was a need to go over how it's a very threatening sweeper on both sides with great checking utility, solid bulk, etc. but apparently I had to go over why an Arceus form is good? I really don't see the need to explain it in depth.

1- I never argued on why it isn't "good". A- isn't a ranking someone suggests if he thinks the said mon is worthless, stop being this ignorant
2- Then why do we not rate Steelceus or Waterceus at A+? They both have various perks. In fact, all Arceus forms should be A+, according to your logic. Groundceus doesn't have "great checking utility", it has the same solid bulk as other Arceus forms and, what seems to me, is rated higher than all other ceus forms just because it goes both ways, not because of its utility or its potential to hold a place in a team.

Yes, I often find myself thinking "my arceus form with almost no reliable switchins is really useless. Why am I not using a totally different Pokemon with separate function and typing?"


A reliable check does not include something like Ho-Oh which only beats 1 set. This is why I brought up 2 sets, because your dozens of checks argument is just false when you consider the fact that they're only reliable versus half of its sets.

My god, you really are brain dead. I have mentioned multiple switch ins to both Groundceus forms. Like at least thrice. And for fuck's sake, STOP using the argument that it might be specially or physically offensive, you reveal your sets after one battle. Surprise element related to a set is NOT a category while judging viability.

Yes, and they're ranked highly because they're good. This does not devalue Groundceus. You cannot compare apples to oranges and tell me I should be using something that loses to Pdon instead of a Pdon check or something weak to steel instead of a steel check.

I wasn't comparing them. I was justifying their place high on the viability rankings. CM ceus forms are not used as a threat on their own, they almost never will be. And the reason why you rarely see a physically offensive ceus other than normalceus is because of the prevalence of wisp users in AG. That is why it comes down to typing and team support in almost all other ceus forms, which Groundceus is not on the same level as.

Because I didn't think I'd need to explain to a good player why Groundceus is good. I shouldn't have to spell this out. You agree it's still fine within the A ranks so you must know the pros of using it. As far as establishing how it gets eaten alive, all I've seen is "these things can't switch in but can win 1v1 versus half of its sets".

And I am finding it hard to understand why I need to explain a good player that my argument is not to belittle Groundceus, rather check its current positioning. Keeping it at A+ would mean that it is one of the best forms of ceus' and is way better than Steelceus/Waterceus/Rockceus(and more, I'll elaborate this when I get another look at viability rankings). The reason why we have such specific rankings, I assume, is to be as precise as possible while rating a mon. If there is no difference between A+ and A- for you, why even have the difference in the first place?

View attachment 56142
And these aren't bad teams, it's just that their checks are things that you can abuse or wear down with any good team, like slow fairyceus with wisp isn't what I'd call reliable at all. Or ray, bring it in on rocks once and it cant switch in as arc SDs anymore. There's no reason to write this off as an in-self sufficient mon.

These are sample teams. They are also outdated teams. Gunner and Zangooser will admit themselves how good they really are. People won't throw around their best teams for others to use.
Now, getting to the teams, first of all, I can't understand one word of what you wrote related to the Gunner's team. If it is saying how Groundceus does very well against it, you are welcome to try it. Darkrai beats Groundceus almost always. And isn't even a bad switch in for it.
No offense to anyone else, but the only other decent team I see on that list is Zangooser's specs ray team, in which specs Ohko's Groundceus.

Then stop playing stupid with "well nobody told me why it's good"

Again, learn to distinguish between A+ and A-. And stop being a disrespectful cunt and then crib about why I started off with the insults.

 

[MZ]

I started reading, then I got to the point where "offensive yveltal is very common but never runs heat wave" and then I stopped. But in posting I saw the disrespectful cunt part, so I assume it didn't get any better.
Also since you never check Skype, go look at the council messages @_@ and qc check kyogre please

 

[hexandwhy]

I started reading, then I got to the point where "offensive yveltal is very common but never runs heat wave" and then I stopped. But in posting I saw the disrespectful cunt part, so I assume it didn't get any better.
Also since you never check Skype, go look at the council messages @_@ and qc check kyogre please

Waaait, are you telling me that Heat Wave exists? WTF are you saying? Or are you agreeing that Heat Wave isn't a thing? I'd say Heat Wave is less common than someone trying to troll people with a team of 6 Magikarps, (actually, that latter is a bit too common to make a good comparison.) Like, really. I have NEVER seen Heat Wave Yveltal on ladder, and you'd think I would, considering one of my main Yveltal check is Steelceus. Have YOU seen any Heat Wave Yveltal recently?

 

[Josh]

at least half of the offensive yveltals ive seen recently have had heat wave. its extremely important coverage, and kind of hilarious you are comparing it to 6 magikarps. dont post nonsense.

edit:
[5:26:46 PM] Death on Wings: LO + black glasses/dread plate = approximately 30% of yveltal
[5:26:53 PM] Death on Wings: and heat wave is on 15%
[5:26:56 PM] Death on Wings: so yeah, half
usage agrees.

 

[The Gunner]

at least half of the offensive yveltals ive seen recently have had heat wave. its extremely important coverage, and kind of hilarious you are comparing it to 6 magikarps. dont post nonsense.

edit:
[5:26:46 PM] Death on Wings: LO + black glasses/dread plate = approximately 30% of yveltal
[5:26:53 PM] Death on Wings: and heat wave is on 15%
[5:26:56 PM] Death on Wings: so yeah, half
usage agrees.

Heat Wave is extremely important coverage? I mean, Yveltal has a fantastic move slot in Dark Pulse / Oblivion Wing / Sucker Punch / Taunt / Knock Off / Foul Play. All of these moves can be fit on the offensive set, and I don't see why you'd replace any of them for Heat Wave, which I believe hits only one Pokemon in Klefki. (Please don't tell me it hits Ferrothorn)

 

[Josh]

We discussed this at length in our skype chat. hitting Klefki is huge, it OHKOs Ferro which is nice to remove the Taunt 50/50, and actually let's you take on steelceus. It's not required but as I said it's very important, especially if your team is weak to Klefki.

 

[MZ]

I just don't see why you'd take a mediocre set and then make it walled by klefki. Like I don't know what other people run but not running heat wave sounds terrible to me and I've always missed it when not using it. I just forget about knock and foul play on offensive and toss it up between sucker and taunt typically. And when I say mediocre I don't mean it's bad, but it's never felt like it's a particularly great set (Defensive is A, offensive is more like B+), and getting walled by keys just makes it even worse
edit @ when zangooser posts below in a few minutes
it's not garbage stfu

 

[Chloe]

I just don't see why you'd take a mediocre set and then make it walled by klefki. Like I don't know what other people run but not running heat wave sounds terrible to me and I've always missed it when not using it. I just forget about knock and foul play on offensive and toss it up between sucker and taunt typically. And when I say mediocre I don't mean it's bad, but it's never felt like it's a particularly great set (Defensive is A, offensive is more like B+), and getting walled by keys just makes it even worse

Running Heat Wave on this thing is almost useless, especially when it's only hitting one relevant pokémon in Klefki. You could run Taunt, which effectively checks that pokémon and also allows for an easy check to essentially a whole playstyle. This offers Offensive Yveltal another level of depth in which it can run its set. Taunt offers much more utility than Heat Wave, as I'm sure most of you can agree.

252+ SpA Life Orb Yveltal Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 234-278 (73.8 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I mean, this isn't bad damage. But what is to stop Klefki from just using Swagger next turn, although it is a 50/50. Taunt is a guaranteed stop, allowing Klefki to only Foul Play.
Then you argue, "but the Heat Wave can happen twice, the 80% damage happens once and their Yveltal wall is gone". Well I doubt the Klefki user is really going to switch it out at any point, unless you have a really hard check for it in the back like Mega Diancie. It needs massive team support with Heat Wave then?!

I'm going into heaps of hypotheticals, but the point still stands. Heat Wave Yveltal is very underwhelming. Being able to check a borderline common pokémon isn't the best trait to have in your coverage moves.

The Ubers set runs it for this reason, "Heat Wave does about 80% to Klefki, forcing it to use a last-ditch status move or Spikes."
That's not a problem for Klefki in AG, it Swaggers and fucks up your day 50% of the time. Taunt it, and it becomes an 100% stop :O. When they start throwing a tantrum tell them I sent you.
Taunt forces out Klefki, and you can Dark Pulse/OWing again! Wow talk about an offensive sweeper being able to force its checks out without being harmed!

Try and run Heat Wave and Taunt then over Sucker Punch, then you can reliably stop Klefki even if it chooses to stay in.

So I think we've gone off track, in this whole debate. I'll try and address the aforementioned points.

Here's your usage:
Usage0: Heat Wave 19.357% out of Dark Pulse 57.508% (1/3 of offensive Yveltals run Heat Wave)
Usage1760: Heat Wave 5.261% out of Dark Pulse 33.559% (Almost 1/7 of offensive Yveltals run Heat Wave)

Hunter never sees the lower ladder, which explains his point on why Heat Wave is uncommon. Which it sort of is, at any spot on the ladder.

If I didn't clarify anything tell me. I found it hard to explain such a dumb argument of why Heat Wave Yveltal is good in AG.

 

[MZ]

u didn't clarify why catching the ez klefki switchin since keys normally switches in just fine is a bad thing
edit: taunt sorta kinda shuts down stall which isn't even relevant anyway I think the issue might be you're overrating how good it is to the point where heat wave isn't even considered (at least imo you're overrating). It's not like u need taunt that much on offensive yveltal
edit @ below
hexandwhy if people are using more stall and it still sucks that doesnt make it a more defensive meta
Also people need to stop saying knock off is good on yveltal :v

 

[hexandwhy]

u didn't clarify why catching the ez klefki switchin since keys normally switches in just fine is a bad thing
edit: taunt sorta kinda shuts down stall which isn't even relevant anyway I think the issue might be you're overrating how good it is to the point where heat wave isn't even considered (at least imo you're overrating). It's not like u need taunt that much on offensive yveltal

iirc, the meta is shifting to a slightly more defensive meta (Quite a few of Zangy's teams are becoming balanced with bulky mons, Dantellion had full stall, I run stall, and many others started running status moves such as Toxic on Arceus. Also, back in the old days, almost nobody carried clerics, and some didn't even have a Defogger. M-ray was also kind of dead during that period, iirc.) where slow Pokemon and bulky Pokemon are becoming more common. That means that Heat Waves is going to be less useful against blobs like Ho-oh, Blissey, etc, while Taunt is going to be more usable on things like slow Stallceus, Blissey, Ferrothorn (also dies to Heat Wave, but we're discussing why Heat Wave is pointless, not why Heat Wave should be used. Taunt makes up for the lost coverage from Heat Wave.), and just random switch ins with status moves. It also prevents mons from using Recover, Sleep Talk, and other annoying stuff. When your Yveltal is almost dead, or useless, and someone brings in a GeoXern, you could Taunt to prevent that from happening too. Not to mention, even if Taunt isn't used, Sucker Punch or Knock Off would probably be more useful.

 

[Chloe]

Based off recent discussion the other council members and I have decided on the following changes.

Primal Kyogre A to A-
Kyogre B+ to B
Aegislash B to C
Mewtwo A to A-
Espeon B- to C+
Smeargle B+ to B
Arceus Dragon C- to B
Arceus Ground A+ to A
Mega Mewtwo Y B to B-
Skarmory B to B+
Mega Salamence B+ to C
Alomomola unranked to C-

Most of these are almost self-explanatory, if any information is needed regarding the decisions please ask.

Some things to discuss!
Mega Scizor - B- to C+?
Arceus Steel - A- to A?
Glalie - C- to C+?
Palkia - B- to idk this is awful (something lower)?
Excadrill - D to C-?

 

[hexandwhy]

Based off recent discussion the other council members and I have decided on the following changes.

Primal Kyogre A to A-
Kyogre B+ to B
Aegislash B to C
Mewtwo A to A-
Espeon B- to C+
Smeargle B+ to B
Arceus Dragon C- to B
Arceus Ground A+ to A
Mega Mewtwo Y B to B-
Skarmory B to B+
Mega Salamence B+ to C
Alomomola unranked to C-

Most of these are almost self-explanatory, if any information is needed regarding the decisions please ask.

Some things to discuss!
Mega Scizor - B- to C+?
Arceus Steel - A- to A?
Glalie - C- to C+?
Palkia - B- to idk this is awful (something lower)?
Excadrill - D to C-?

I think Kyogre should stay in B+, along with Mewtwo staying in A. (I kind of didn't understand why it was going to be dropped, could you repeat it?) What could Alomomola do, that gives it C rank?

For the discussion, I agree about Steelceus's promotion, along with Glalie's. I know Excadrill is good from previous experiences, so that too. Why is Palkia so high, lol.

Also, what makes Giratina-O two ranks above Giratina? Stronger attack stats + boosted STAB + Levitate sounds good, but it loses out on an item, gets weaker defenses (which can be crucial on a Mon, who's role is to be a Defogger), and can't use Pressure. I personally find Gira to be better than Gira-O, and even if Gira-O is superior, I don't see why Gira is as good as Mega Gengar.

And finally, can Mega Gengar be promoted? Takes up a mega slot and all, but wrecks almost any kind of stall (so threatening, Blissey runs Shed Shell just to avoid it), and just plain does well in a meta where it speed ties with the fastest relevant mon (Mewtwo), along with a Normal immunity in a tier filled with E-speed. Shadow Tag is also broken, and it has gets good moves like Taunt, Disable, Perish Song, Destiny Bond, along with ridiculous special attack. You will rarely find a game where this thing doesn't help your team at all. "Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the AG metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
A+" It's role is literally irreplaceable, and it has overwhelmingly good traits, compared to bad ones. I think this shouldn't be A-, but A+, or even S-.

 

[Mq]

Well i had a q,Why is metagross mega vial-able ?Does it do anything else other than taking a mega slot and hitting just fairies?

 

[HunterStorm]

Well i had a q,Why is metagross mega vial-able ?Does it do anything else other than taking a mega slot and hitting just fairies?

The standard Ubers Mega metagross set is a xern check, a pretty decent one. Steel types in general are pretty nice. One of the few viable pursuit users in AG. And has good STAB moves and a decent stab priority. Nothing too brilliant, quite a desperate xern check. Could be dropped, imo.

 

[MZ]

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 136 HP / 196 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
This was my favorite set, I tried to come up with a more optimal spread than the ubers analysis but the same relevant threats apply. The key here is that you outspeed Adamant MegaRay and Ice Punch does a lot (6.3% chance to OHKO after SR which means you can take out LO variants). You also check xern (live +2 FB) and it's just really hard to switch into this thing; Giratina is getting 3HKOd and is passive af anyway, Lugia/Yveltal can't come in with SR, your best bet is going to that defensive Arceus form to eat a few neutral hits. Very solid fairy check and surprisingly hard to switch into, don't see it needing a drop rly.

 

[hexandwhy]

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 136 HP / 196 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Bullet Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
This was my favorite set, I tried to come up with a more optimal spread than the ubers analysis but the same relevant threats apply. The key here is that you outspeed Adamant MegaRay and Ice Punch does a lot (6.3% chance to OHKO after SR which means you can take out LO variants). You also check xern (live +2 FB) and it's just really hard to switch into this thing; Giratina is getting 3HKOd and is passive af anyway, Lugia/Yveltal can't come in with SR, your best bet is going to that defensive Arceus form to eat a few neutral hits. Very solid fairy check and surprisingly hard to switch into, don't see it needing a drop rly.

Uhh... Your EV spread is identical to the Uber X-Wing set. You pretty much opted for Ice Punch for M-Ray, and dropped Earthquake for Zen Headbutt. (What does Zen even hit? P-Ogre?)
Max speed Adamant LO M-Ray is a thing? I thought those things were usually Jolly. Also, you seemed to have calculated the 6.3% chance to OHKO, with the assumption that M-Ray has only 4 defense invested in speed. (Aren't some of the M-Ray bulkier now?) And even then, if you get a low roll for both Ice Punch and Bullet Punch, the total damage inflicted would be 89.4%, if I did my math properly. That means M-Ray could possibly set up a DD and sweep after OHKO'ing with EQ, or 2HKO'ing with E-speed.
And Giratina has Will-O-Wisp, so this thing is going to be forced to switch out. (That's not very good thing I assume, as it can probably only come in on moves like Toxic.)
And I doubt this thing can bypass P-don or bulky Arceus. "196 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO"
I'd say that your moveset, Zen Headbutt makes no sense, Ice Punch isn't even a good coverage (as Meteor Mash does around the same damage to M-Ray and Yveltal), and this Pokemon could be dropped, for all I care. Complete set up bait to StallCeus, CM Steelceus, Klefki, and Darkrai. Also gets threatened out by literally anything with Will-O-Wisp or P-don.

 

[MZ]

Honestly none of your complaints make any sense except maybe ZHB but I guess I'll try to address them.

Uhh... Your EV spread is identical to the Uber X-Wing set.

Yes, I admitted this. The thing is, the HP is still for Geoxern and the speed in ubers was for jolly base 100 (not relevant in AG) but just so happens to beat adamant megaray which still makes it optimal.

You pretty much opted for Ice Punch for M-Ray, and dropped Earthquake for Zen Headbutt. (What does Zen even hit? P-Ogre?)

Yes I did. I found zen to be the best neutral coverage versus things like Waterceus, Ogre, Ho-Oh, and Pdon. My issue was that I wanted the other 3 slots but Thunderpunch/EQ miss out on one of those targets and I preferred nailing all of them. You're weaker vs Pdon without EQ but hit other stuff better and still do a significant amount of damage to it.

Max speed Adamant LO M-Ray is a thing? I thought those things were usually Jolly.

+Attack is generally more common according to most people. Jolly is a thing which sucks for meta but you weren't beating Jolly anyway. Adamant Ray only loses out to semi irrelevant things which it will beat at +1 speed but gets a large power boost. (Espeon, Lando-I, Lati@s, Adamant Arceus, Mega Lucario) Basically the only really big thing you lose out on is Mega Diancie.

Also, you seemed to have calculated the 6.3% chance to OHKO, with the assumption that M-Ray has only 4 defense invested in speed. (Aren't some of the M-Ray bulkier now?) And even then, if you get a low roll for both Ice Punch and Bullet Punch, the total damage inflicted would be 89.4%, if I did my math properly. That means M-Ray could possibly set up a DD and sweep after OHKO'ing with EQ, or 2HKO'ing with E-speed.

Yes, some Ray are bulkier. It's not what I'd call common rly and that just shows why I liked Ice Punch. Sure bulkier ray sucks for you, but it comes with its own host of issues and what is Meta going to do about it. And yes, you could get a low roll. That's mons. It just shows that you have a good shot of annoying LO ray, which is less common than Lum anyway, and can get off some nice damage. I was just showing why I used Ice Punch. I honestly don't get why this should need some sort of response.

And Giratina has Will-O-Wisp, so this thing is going to be forced to switch out. (That's not very good thing I assume, as it can probably only come in on moves like Toxic.)

Yes but you keep up the pressure on Gira and it's rest reliant so once it's asleep you have an easier time which is why it's not the most reliable thing for Mega Meta. Obvious Wisping it would suck but Gira isn't just this 100% stop to it was my point.

And I doubt this thing can bypass P-don or bulky Arceus. "196 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO"

Yes, it doesn't beat bulky Arceus formes. I said that. I honestly don't understand what sort of point you're trying to bring up here since nothing really makes sense, but every mon has faults so yeah, it gets pressured by bulky Arceus formes although it's forcing them to recover so that's something. As far as not getting past Pdon, Pdon has no recovery and takes 35% with rocks from Zen, you're going to be able to whittle it. Again, it's not a great mon. Everything has its checks. But I can't tell if you have an actual point here or are just saying "hey look one of the best mons is a good check to this" in which case cool, good job man.

I'd say that your moveset, Zen Headbutt makes no sense,

I did say I liked it for the neutral coverage. Sure EQ is also quite good and Rock Slide and Thunder Punch are possibilities, I won't deny that.
Ice Punch isn't even a good coverage (as Meteor Mash does around the same damage to M-Ray and Yveltal),[/quote]
196 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 224-264 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 199-235 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 150-177 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
196 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 168-198 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
"About the same damage". Please calc first. And before you say "oh but Yveltal can come in and foul play it" yes, I get that, the calcs just show that there's a decent power buff which is why I used Ice Punch.

and this Pokemon could be dropped, for all I care. Complete set up bait to StallCeus, CM Steelceus, Klefki, and Darkrai. Also gets threatened out by literally anything with Will-O-Wisp or P-don.

Maybe it should get dropped but the fact is you're really underrating the annoyance of switching into this. It can have Ice Punch or it can have EQ and make don, Steelceus and Klefki a bit more afraid to switch in (not gonna calc but steel probably stalls it out eventually), it could have hammer arm to bop stallceus, it could have Rock Slide to hit Ho-Oh...and even once you know the moves it has it's still threatening. Yes, Darkrai sleeps it, Darkrai sleeps 90% of the meta. Oh no. At least it has bullet punch to break subs so it's not as bad as other shit. Sure it's threatened out by Pdon but it can also chip it down and lol it's a steel type, so is Steelceus but that's not why it shouldn't rise to A. And things with Will-O-Wisp threaten pretty much every physical attacker in AG. I just see all the arguments you have as "yes, duh, how does that impact how it plays". It's a threatening mon and doesn't need to go below Aegislash, Lando-T, Garchomp, Greninja...plenty of things in that rank have the same mediocrity to them, I'd say meta is better than half the rank easily, just losing out to the arc formes, kanga, and kyu-w

 

[hexandwhy]

Honestly none of your complaints make any sense except maybe ZHB but I guess I'll try to address them.

Yes, I admitted this. The thing is, the HP is still for Geoxern and the speed in ubers was for jolly base 100 (not relevant in AG) but just so happens to beat adamant megaray which still makes it optimal.

Yes I did. I found zen to be the best neutral coverage versus things like Waterceus, Ogre, Ho-Oh, and Pdon. My issue was that I wanted the other 3 slots but Thunderpunch/EQ miss out on one of those targets and I preferred nailing all of them. You're weaker vs Pdon without EQ but hit other stuff better and still do a significant amount of damage to it.

+Attack is generally more common according to most people. Jolly is a thing which sucks for meta but you weren't beating Jolly anyway. Adamant Ray only loses out to semi irrelevant things which it will beat at +1 speed but gets a large power boost. (Espeon, Lando-I, Lati@s, Adamant Arceus, Mega Lucario) Basically the only really big thing you lose out on is Mega Diancie.

Yes, some Ray are bulkier. It's not what I'd call common rly and that just shows why I liked Ice Punch. Sure bulkier ray sucks for you, but it comes with its own host of issues and what is Meta going to do about it. And yes, you could get a low roll. That's mons. It just shows that you have a good shot of annoying LO ray, which is less common than Lum anyway, and can get off some nice damage. I was just showing why I used Ice Punch. I honestly don't get why this should need some sort of response.

Yes but you keep up the pressure on Gira and it's rest reliant so once it's asleep you have an easier time which is why it's not the most reliable thing for Mega Meta. Obvious Wisping it would suck but Gira isn't just this 100% stop to it was my point.

Yes, it doesn't beat bulky Arceus formes. I said that. I honestly don't understand what sort of point you're trying to bring up here since nothing really makes sense, but every mon has faults so yeah, it gets pressured by bulky Arceus formes although it's forcing them to recover so that's something. As far as not getting past Pdon, Pdon has no recovery and takes 35% with rocks from Zen, you're going to be able to whittle it. Again, it's not a great mon. Everything has its checks. But I can't tell if you have an actual point here or are just saying "hey look one of the best mons is a good check to this" in which case cool, good job man.

I did say I liked it for the neutral coverage. Sure EQ is also quite good and Rock Slide and Thunder Punch are possibilities, I won't deny that.
Ice Punch isn't even a good coverage (as Meteor Mash does around the same damage to M-Ray and Yveltal),
196 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 224-264 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 199-235 (56.6 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 150-177 (32.9 - 38.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
196 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 168-198 (36.9 - 43.5%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
"About the same damage". Please calc first. And before you say "oh but Yveltal can come in and foul play it" yes, I get that, the calcs just show that there's a decent power buff which is why I used Ice Punch.

Maybe it should get dropped but the fact is you're really underrating the annoyance of switching into this. It can have Ice Punch or it can have EQ and make don, Steelceus and Klefki a bit more afraid to switch in (not gonna calc but steel probably stalls it out eventually), it could have hammer arm to bop stallceus, it could have Rock Slide to hit Ho-Oh...and even once you know the moves it has it's still threatening. Yes, Darkrai sleeps it, Darkrai sleeps 90% of the meta. Oh no. At least it has bullet punch to break subs so it's not as bad as other shit. Sure it's threatened out by Pdon but it can also chip it down and lol it's a steel type, so is Steelceus but that's not why it shouldn't rise to A. And things with Will-O-Wisp threaten pretty much every physical attacker in AG. I just see all the arguments you have as "yes, duh, how does that impact how it plays". It's a threatening mon and doesn't need to go below Aegislash, Lando-T, Garchomp, Greninja...plenty of things in that rank have the same mediocrity to them, I'd say meta is better than half the rank easily, just losing out to the arc formes, kanga, and kyu-w

Oh, I'm sorry about the last paragraph. Considering you didn't add any slashes for your set, I thought you meant that that was the most optimal set you could think of, and you didn't even consider about any other coverage moves. As for it not deserving to drop below Aegi, Lando-T, Gar, and Greninja, I think everyone other than Lando-T and Gar can go to D rank or C. (There is no way that Greninja or Aegi is as viable as Chansey or Blissey), and Gar can't be lowered too.

I actually don't think any of these mons are bad, but the viability ranking for anything B- and below seems to be messed up. Blaziken is as viable as Ditto, Greninja and Aegi is even usable (at least Greninja has taunt and Toxic Spikes, Aegi really has nothing but beating Xern), and Latias seems usable in theory but I've never seen much play by good players. Could we just reset everything below B- and relist them if a person can provide proof that it's viable? Its ridiculous that a lot of people seem to be arguing about why it's NOT viable, when I feel like the reason why its viable hasn't been listed yet. Like, the last time, 8 out of the 12 mons that were updated were dropped in rank. I bet a lot more mons are going to drop rather than increase.

The Immortal says: use the edit button

 

[TheHungrySage]

Nominating Zekrom for A Ranking
I believe that Zekrom, due to its threatening physical movepool backed up by a blistering 150 base Attack stat as well as the way in which it may carry a large range of items effectively, is long overdue for a raise. My reasoning for this can be found below, divided into several easy to navigate sections.

Uber Pokemon Hit Super Effectively
Zekrom's unique Dragon/Electric typing allow it a range of STAB moves that can slice apart a large amount of Uber Pokemon. Below can be seen a list of only the Pokemon that are hit super effectively by Zekrom's STAB moves.

Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Flying
Arceus-Water
Giratina
Giratina-Origin
Greninja
Ho-Oh
Kyogre
Kyogre-Primal
Kyurem-White
Lugia
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Salamence-Mega
Yveltal
Zekrom

This above list is simply a list of those hit super-effectively by Zekrom's STAB moves, moves that are backed up with pretty great offensive stats. As such, near all on the above list can be OHKO'ed by Zekrom, which alone should be enough to merit Zekrom's raise. Do take care to keep in mind the fact that there are many Pokemon on this list that, although not hit super effectively, can still be OHKO'ed by Zekrom's attacks. Also, remember that with the sort of power that Zekrom packs it can easily take down weakened Pokemon and many Pokemon that are used outside of the Uber tier, such as Skarmory.

Item Versatility
Zekrom, due to its versatile movepool and a unique typing is able to use various items to best take an opponent unaware. A list of the most commonly used items and an explanation for each may be found below.

Choice Band-The Choice Band can be used on Zekrom to maximize its offensive power. Packing a base 150 attack the Choice Band ramps up Attack to ridiculous levels, allowing it to essentially one-hit near any Pokemon it is faced with.

Choice Scarf-The Choice Scarf can be used to ramp up Zekrom's speed so as to outspeed many other threats. With the Choice Scarf, Zekrom can outspeed any unboosted, unscarfed Pokemon outside of Deoxys-Speed. This allows the potential for Zekrom to become an incredibly dangerous revenge killer.

Shuca Berry-The Shuca Berry allows for Zekrom to withstand Ice Beam from many notable threats, most predominantly Primal Kyogre. This allows Zekrom to actually switch into P-ogre and, the turn after, drop an OHKO Bolt Strike.

Life Orb-The Life Orb may damage Zekrom's longevity, but it allows for Zekrom to drop extremely powerful attacks while being able to switch to coverage moves, not allowing opponents to take advantage of a Choice item.

Due to this versatility, each time Zekrom is played an opponent must always play carefully, simply due to the large range of possibilities that Zekrom may carry with it. More obscure items, such as various berries, an Assault Vest, or even Choice Specs, may be carried to catch an opponent off-guard. That alone, once again, should be reason enough to promote Zekrom.

TL;DR-Vote Zekrom for President

In summary, due to a simply incredible amount of positive aspects, including a great offensive movepool, large amounts of item versatility and requiring no support whatsoever from team members Zekrom should be promoted to A ranking.

Thankyou.

 

[hexandwhy]

Arceus-Dragon
Arceus-Flying
Arceus-Water
Giratina
Giratina-Origin
Greninja
Ho-Oh
Kyogre
Kyogre-Primal
Kyurem-White
Lugia
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Salamence-Mega
Shaymin-Sky
Yveltal
Zekrom

>Greninja
>Kyurem-White
U mad bruh?
One, adding Greninja kind of made your post look stupid.
Second, Kyurem-White isn't going to switch in to anything Zekrom is using but scarf Bolt Strike, and if it you do try to switch in to Kyurem-White, you can only really switch in on Fusion Flare. Kyurem-White also has 95 speed and STAB Ice Beam/Draco Meteor. You'll lose unless you're Scarf and they are Spec.
With that said, I do agree that it is a good mon. However, B-Strike + Outrage/Dragon Claw coverage means that if its banded or scarf, a Pokemon can easily sponge a hit and go to a mon that resists the move. (P-don, Xerneas, etc) Orb is kind of too slow for practical use, and the lack of power is noticeable. And this Pokemon relies a lot in prediction skills, and a Pokemon relying on only prediction skills to be effective is going to lose you games in the long run. Of course, it feels satisfying when you win via prediction, but I doubt it will get you too far, as it also means that the opponent can beat you if they predict better than you. And if your opponent is using a Xerneas, you will be blocked from using Dragon Claw, as even if you kill a mon with Dragon Claw/Outrage, you become total set up bait to Xerneas afterwards. This mon is too high risk, medium reward for my liking, at least.

Vote Trump Wobbuffet for president.



I think it would be fine if this thing got promoted to B+, but not A or A-.

 

[HunterStorm]

Issues with Zekrom
Hitting stuff super effectively and actually ensuring kills are two completely different things. Other than being a switch in for Mray and getting a decent OHKO on specially def Lugia, Zekrom doesn't have any other notable niche in AG. Both of its stab moves are absorbed, and to say that fairy/ground types are one of the most common types won't be far fetched. Moreover, Zekrom can prove to be fodder for both Xerns/double dance p dons, which are two of the most powerful sweepers in the game. Not only does Zekrom require ridiculous support, it doesn't quite sweep teams or actually prove to be a huge threat to any team on its own. On the contrary, both scarf and band sets turn out to be a liability, more often than not, and any other set just get walled/eliminated by many things in the meta. I don't think this needs to be anywhere else on the viability charts except where it already is.

Noms
I think I speak for everyone when I say the eons are overrated as fuck. Need to be dropped C/C-
Quagsire is a highly underrated physical wall. It can fit into most teams looking for something to tank physical hits or as a reliable defensive unaware user. It gets counter and is quite good at toxic stalling, while it tanks almost any physically offensive hit in the game. I nom it for C+