Resource Anything Goes Resources

Thimo

I COULD BE BANNED!
#76
I'll have to oppose this one. Agreed that Xern still has a lot of sets, but you still wouldn't look at one particular set with the same approval as it got in gen 6. While I understand that need not be a benchmark for its current viability, there are far too many factors to hinder it. The meta is loaded with Xerneas checks to the extent that you don't really have to 'pack one', you just find yourself dealing with Xerneas by using some of the most viable mons in the game. Most of these mons aren't solely Xern checks either; Primal Groudon, Magearna, Solgaleo, Chansey, Blissey, Ho oh, Clefable etc are very viable aside from checking Xern, whereas Poisonceus, Fireceus, Aegislash (sorry for even mentioning this, but it's true), Amoonguss, Shedinja, Mega Scizor, Megagross etc can be packed specifically with the purpose of countering Xern. Not to mention, the bunch of mons that can check Xerneas on the absence of a move or two like Ferrothorn (if hp ground is user over fmiss), Steelceus (if xern isn't ev'd to tank judgment or hp ground > fmiss), scarf Jirachi (in case it creeps Xern), Celesteela (no thunder xern) etc. I mean sure, Xerneas could pack specs or band and surprise some of these mons, or could set up on pseudo-hazers with ingrain geo, and that's why it still is A- rank. But you just couldn't point out to one Xerneas set with 4 definite moves which beats even half of its checks. There's just so much the meta can do to deal with Xern now, and its previous ability to use scarf xern for some very exclusive perks is gone. I'm not saying it needs to drop, but there just hasn't been anything spectacular recently which inspires a jump. It has dropped quite a lot in usage, and if it ever gains the usage back, its checks will come back and hinder its success again. It just seems like a very A- mon, and I think a push is severely undeserved at this point of time.
Every check or counter you listed. Lose to multiple Xerneas sets and coverage moves. Most of them (Pretty much every viable one), can't handle being at a lower HP, than full. Forcing them to use recovery every time it comes in. This leaves huge gaps and setup / glass cannoning opportunities for teammates, such as Rayquaza. The Banded set for example, simply removes any Pokémon from their side, if it comes in on say, Soft-Boiled from Blissey, or a Protect from Clefable. Don't forget they cannot remove their Xerneas check, or else that will sweep. The free switches Xerneas can give is yet another reason why I think it should be A rank
 
#77
Nomming Xerneas from A- to A

Why go back up? You may ask. Well, I feel that when it got deranked, from A+ to A-, people underestimated it too much, giving arguments like "Magearna walls every set", while that is true (for the most part) I still feel it is a huge threat. Every team, absolutely needs to prepare for it. Wether it's GeoXern, Z-GeoXern or some other set like Choice Specs, Choice Scarf, Life Orb or Choice Band. This amount of sets gives it huge versatility. Every Xerneas must be scouted, before it is countered properly. Even though you can assume Geomancy and Moonblast to be on most sets. The other moves are always a toss-up. Magearna has to be the closest thing to a Xerneas counter, but even Magearna has its flaws. Magearna is easily chipped down to low health. Just make sure it is in KO range for Xerneas, and it's dealt with.
Every check or counter you listed. Lose to multiple Xerneas sets and coverage moves. Most of them (Pretty much every viable one), can't handle being at a lower HP, than full. Forcing them to use recovery every time it comes in. This leaves huge gaps and setup / glass cannoning opportunities for teammates, such as Rayquaza. The Banded set for example, simply removes any Pokémon from their side, if it comes in on say, Soft-Boiled from Blissey, or a Protect from Clefable. Don't forget they cannot remove their Xerneas check, or else that will sweep. The free switches Xerneas can give is yet another reason why I think it should be A rank
I'm going to disagree with this as well.

Just because something is versatile doesn't necessarily warrant it to be in a higher rank.
Variations of Geomancy sets (normal, Z-geo, ingrain, etc) are by far the most common, undoubtedly. According to these usage stats at 1760+, Geomancy is on a whopping 94.479% percent of Xerneas sets.
I feel like you are not taking into account that Geomancy is almost always a one time setup, and you need to set it up to be used well. Xerneas doesn't boast enough speed to do enough without +2 from Geomancy or a Choice Scarf. Geomancy also needs setup, which allows it to be simply killed, phazed out, heart swapped on, or even Psyched up on. Z-geomancy needs a 2 turn setup, as well as ingrain geomancy. Once your power herb or Z-crystal is used up, you will almost never use it again, meaning there is a extremely high risk with putting it on your team.
 

Thimo

I COULD BE BANNED!
#78
I'm going to disagree with this as well.

Just because something is versatile doesn't necessarily warrant it to be in a higher rank.
Variations of Geomancy sets (normal, Z-geo, ingrain, etc) are by far the most common, undoubtedly. According to these usage stats at 1760+, Geomancy is on a whopping 94.479% percent of Xerneas sets.
I feel like you are not taking into account that Geomancy is almost always a one time setup, and you need to set it up to be used well. Xerneas doesn't boast enough speed to do enough without +2 from Geomancy or a Choice Scarf. Geomancy also needs setup, which allows it to be simply killed, phazed out, heart swapped on, or even Psyched up on. Z-geomancy needs a 2 turn setup, as well as ingrain geomancy. Once your power herb or Z-crystal is used up, you will almost never use it again, meaning there is a extremely high risk with putting it on your team.
first of all, those are gen 6 usage stats lol. Xerneas not boasting enough speed is just you being dumb and not investing any. Sure Geomancy needs setup which quote unquote allows it to be simply killed, phazed out, heart swapped on, or even Psyched up on. Dragon Dance Rayquaza and Swords Dance Arceus can be "simply killed, phazed out, heart swapped on, or even Psyched up on." I think you don't get the full purpose of a setup mon. You setup when you see gaps, not when you know you're just gonna get killed... As response to your "once your power herb or Z-crystal is used up, you will almost never use it again" No fucking shit mate, they are meant to be single use items.. As response to your last "argument", what fucking risk is there in putting Xerneas on your team, like I honestly feel like you your little brother was writing this.
 
Likes: Mq

Chloe

;w;
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#79
The following rank changes have occurred.
Code:
Arceus-Fire - D to C-
Cloyster - Unranked to C-
Darkrai - C- to D
Dugtrio - Unranked to D
Ferrothorn - B+ to A-
Galvantula - Unranked to D
Gyarados-Mega - D to C-
Kartana - C- to C
Mawile-Mega - Unranked to D
Metagross-Mega - Unranked to C-
Muk-Alola - C+ to B-
Sableye-Mega - B to B+
Salamence-Mega - B to C+
Shedinja - D to Unranked
Slowbro-Mega - D to Unranked
Tapu Koko - Unranked to D
Terrakion - Unranked to D
Vivillon - Unranked to D
Whimsicott - D to Unranked
Please continue to discuss any ranks you may believe are misplacements or inaccurate, thank you. :)
 
#80
The following rank changes have occurred.
Code:
Arceus-Fire - D to C-
Cloyster - Unranked to C-
Darkrai - C- to D
Dugtrio - Unranked to D
Ferrothorn - B+ to A-
Galvantula - Unranked to D
Gyarados-Mega - D to C-
Kartana - C- to C
Mawile-Mega - Unranked to D
Metagross-Mega - Unranked to C-
Muk-Alola - C+ to B-
Sableye-Mega - B to B+
Salamence-Mega - B to C+
Shedinja - D to Unranked
Slowbro-Mega - D to Unranked
Tapu Koko - Unranked to D
Terrakion - Unranked to D
Vivillon - Unranked to D
Whimsicott - D to Unranked
Please continue to discuss any ranks you may believe are misplacements or inaccurate, thank you. :)

I understand the others, but... Vivillion? What? Is that an inside joke from the chatroom or something? I can't possibly imagine a niche for it.
 

Chloe

;w;
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#81
I understand the others, but... Vivillion? What? Is that an inside joke from the chatroom or something? I can't possibly imagine a niche for it.
Consider Darkrai from last gen, with a 98% accuracy sleep move, a better setup move and a better STAB. Unfortunately, its speed tier is a massive issue for it, which is why it relies on Sticky Web to start setting up usually, but that's what it's D-rank and that's why it is not anything higher. Overall it's a decent Pokemon and it fits the rank of D perfectly. It is quite viable, and a mon I'd suggest you try. Still 10x more viable than Specs Deoxys-Attack though. That's a mon I can't possibly imagine a niche for.
 
#82
Nominating Volbeat for D rank

Access to prankster setup, in addition to encore makes it a nice stat passing mon on offensive teams. As seen in the replays below, it is a reliable strategy in AG. I feel it has increased in viability from last gen, as it gained access to infestation. In comparision, no other pokemon can perform the role that Volbeat does. There are two viable variations of the set:-

Volbeat @ Normalium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Tail Glow
- Baton Pass
- Infestation

OR the set carried over from last gen :-

Volbeat @ Normalium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Tail Glow
- Baton Pass
- Psych Up

The psych up variation of the set allows it to psych up Xerneas' boosts, with the spread letting it live a moon blast after rocks. However, the infestation variation lets you trap any setup bait, such as Shuckle. Normalium Z gives access to Z-encore, which lets you pass +1 speed along with your Tail Glow boosts.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-577725502 VS Catalystic
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-578530596 VS Lotiasite
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-579846695 VS Purple Gatorade
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-582660425 VS Fardin
 
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Thimo

I COULD BE BANNED!
#83
Nominating Volbeat for D rank

Access to prankster setup, in addition to encore makes it a nice stat passing mon on offensive teams. As seen in the replays below, it is a reliable strategy in AG. I feel it has increased in viability from last gen, as it gained access to infestation. In comparision, no other pokemon can perform the role that Volbeat does. There are two viable variations of the set:-

Volbeat @ Normalium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Tail Glow
- Baton Pass
- Infestation

OR the set carried over from last gen :-

Volbeat @ Normalium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Tail Glow
- Baton Pass
- Psych Up

The psych up variation of the set allows it to psych up Xerneas' boosts, with the spread letting it live a moon blast after rocks. However, the infestation variation lets you trap any setup bait, such as Shuckle. Normalium Z gives access to Z-encore, which lets you pass +1 speed along with your Tail Glow boosts.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-577725502 VS Catalystic
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-578530596 VS Lotiasite
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-579846695 VS Purple Gatorade
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-582660425 VS Fardin
you also forgot to mention it received +20 base defense and +10 base special defense
 
#84
Time to try and revive this thread for a bit. Nomming Arceus-Poison (Poisonceus) from B- to B.
We all know what Arceus and its forms can do, so I won't be focusing on the obivous as much. I know it's not much of a jump, but it deserves to be at B rank for the sole reason of countering Fairies and BP as a whole, which (to me) seems like it's becoming more and more used/encountered on ladder. The fact that you can run Perish Song on any arc form is dangerous enough to BP, but coupled with Poison typing, Sylveon and Mr. Mime can't really switch in on it either. Xerneas sets don't carry Psychic/Psyshock anymore if at all, and HP Ground isn't common in AG, opting for better coverage. This means Poisonceus could essentially become prevalent this Gen, being a better check to most mons unlike Magearna. I've also seen a few other users, namely PurpleGatorade and FardinAG implement Poisonceus on some of their teams, and faring well in their matches. Other than a few typings/mons, Poisonceus can also hit the majority of the meta for Super effective or Neutral damage, making it more than just a niche mon.
I've got a few sets and Replays that I'll try to post later to back this nomination up.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-584032338
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-584030256
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-583093259
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-580778757
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-577657754

Edit: Got some replays now. These mainly showcase the team against BP and Psychic mons/well known AG players and against playstyle matchups. Perish Song isn't a "one-time gimmick" if it's used properly, not to mention there's 8 times you can use it, which is besides the point. Having a Perish Song Poisonceus also saves a slot for Mega Gengar, if they run Perish Song on Gengar of course. The mons that counter Poisonceus can also be covered by obviously running coverage moves and team member that work well with it, or check the majority of the meta.
Arceus-Poison @ Toxic Plate Ability: Multitype EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 156 SpD / 96 Spe Jolly Nature - Poison Jab - Stealth Rock - Will-O-Wisp - Recover
Arceus-Poison @ Toxic Plate Ability: Multitype EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 164 SpD / 88 Spe Careful Nature - Poison Jab - Stealth Rock - Will-O-Wisp - Recover
Arceus-Poison @ Toxic Plate Ability: Multitype EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe Timid Nature IVs: 0 Atk - Sludge Bomb - Psych Up - Recover - Earth Power
Here are some sets for Poisonceus, s/o Thimo for helping me with them. Perish Song or whatever move else can be stuck where you want it. The set EVs are pretty easy to recognize, speed EVs to creep Ray an outspeed base 99s, with 8 SpD to live a Psyshock from GeoXern after rocks.

Now some banter between Thimsy and I. Need I say more to support this nom?:
[04:25:48] eThimo: poisonceus is versatile
[04:25:51] Synoptic ❤: It is
[04:25:52] eThimo: af
 
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#85
Time to try and revive this thread for a bit. Nomming Arceus-Poison (Poisonceus) from B- to B.
We all know what Arceus and its forms can do, so I won't be focusing on the obivous as much. I know it's not much of a jump, but it deserves to be at B rank for the sole reason of countering Fairies and BP as a whole, which (to me) seems like it's becoming more and more used/encountered on ladder. The fact that you can run Perish Song on any arc form is dangerous enough to BP, but coupled with Poison typing, Sylveon and Mr. Mime can't really switch in on it either.
I have disagree with this. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say that Arc-Poison "counters" BP because of the glaring weakness to Stored Power. Essentially, you have a one-time gimmick that can only force 50/50s afterwards, with Judgment/Perish Song vs Switch-In/Stored Power. Outside of that, the countering Fairy-types isn't that amazing. There are only five Fairy-types are relevant in AG (Xerneas, Clefable, Tapu Lele, Magearna, Arceus-Fairy) and Arceus-Poison only truly beats three of them (Xerneas, Clefable, Arceus-Fairy). Additionally, it's weak matchups versus Groudon-Primal, Rayquaza-Mega EQ, Zygarde-Complete, Arceus-Steel, and SD EQ Arceus, all incredibly present in AG, do nothing to help it's case. Maybe some replays would change my opinion on this, but as of right now I have to disagree.

On this note, I'd actually like to nominate Tapu Lele from C+ to B-/B. We know the support Psychic Terrain gives to Deoxys-Attack and Mewtwo and have all lost to the ugly offense squad Thimo made at one point or another. I'd also like to mention the defensive support that Psychic Terrain gives, namely protecting grounded defensive mon's, like PhysDef Arceus, from E-killer's strongest attack.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus: 207-243 (46.6 - 54.7%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO
vs​
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Arceus: 172-203 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​

This means that your PhysDef Arceus can Recover off damage while allowing Life Orb to put E-Killer in range of Judgment. Additionally, Choice Scarf Tapu Lele acts as an excellent revenge killer against nearly everything, can't be revenge-killed itself outside of faster Scarfers, and between it's STABs, can afford to run coverage that it needs to hit whatever Steel-types you want. Also, Tapu Lele is a bitch to switch-into. Any sort of chip damage can spell certain death for support Arceus forms, since Scarf Lele outspeeds.

252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Fairy in Psychic Terrain: 190-225 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO​

Between the defensive and offensive support, as well as the offensive pressure that only Tapu Lele can provide a team, I nominate Tapu Lele from C+ to B.
 

Thimo

I COULD BE BANNED!
#86
Big noms around high ranks:
Xerneas A- to A

I am nomming this yet again. You all seem to sleep on the powers of Xerneas in the tier, and how much it affects it and what not. There's 0 reliable switch ins to this thing, people are required at least 2 Xerneas checks on their team due to how scary its coverage is. Not even Rayquaza requires 2 checks, because every ekiller will scare it out. I think Xerneas is underexplored on the council's part of this spectrum. I don't think any of you ever use it, except Megazard with Specs sometimes. That's how kinda diminishing it is. I want you all to try various sets to rethink your previous decision before you straight up deny the nom again.
Yveltal A+ to A
I'd say Yveltal does a bit too little to be A+, It doesn't have much versatility as more often than not they're either Offensive or Life Orb. Other non-standard sets like Specs and Scarf share the same coverage, and are easier to switch in to, simply because it's coverage isn't the best. Dark Pulse sure is strong, but if every supportceus that hits more than 326 speed walls it. It kinda loses it's purpose. If there's 1 hard wall it can't touch, it kinda is useless the whole game because it can't really wallbreak much. Against offensive teams, it's too slow. It comes short 3 speed points for Adamant Ray and most Offense teams have a Calm Mind Arceus somewhere. It's Defensive set is useless agaisnt bulkier teams, but nice against offense, however as I stated earlier. With Calm Mind Arceus forms it isn't really doing much. It requires a lot of team support to get around these problems. While it is still a good pokémon I think A+ is a little too much for it.
 

Pigeons

formerly Yuga42
#87
For the record I agree with both of the above noms, here are some of my own:

Mega Gengar A+ -> S

This has been brought up before but I'd like to open discussion on it again. In my eyes MGar is easily on par with Mega Rayquaza in the current meta for a multitude of reasons. Arceus spam is gaining traction at the moment so MGar is only getting better, it's higher speed tier and ESpeed immunity make it exceptional against such team. It's overall one of the best (if not the best) revenge killers in the tier thanks to Shadow Tag, enabling it to take out Arceus forms and Rayquaza after chip damage or drops. Stall also has a really hard time dealing with it, so much so that things like Psychic Chansey and Lugia are viable to deal with it. MGar may not have item versatility like Rayquaza but through changing its moveset it can drastically change the threats it traps. Sub + Disable, Reflect Type, Focus Blast and Taunt + Destiny Bond are all capable of trapping different threats with little to no counterplay depending on the circumstance. MGar has always been S in my eyes for its ability to perform so many roles in just one teamslot, and against almost any team to boot. My reasoning for wanting it to be placed alongside MRay is that the two are both versatile in many matchups and can work around their checks to some degree. MGar is certainly a cut above all of the other A+ ranked Pokemon and the rankings should be changed to reflect that.

Deoxys-Attack A- -> B+
Even though Deospam is still incredibly threatening, it's becoming harder to justify due to how unreliable it is. Deospam can be pressured incredibly easily with little more than a Scarfer and some decent hazard control. I think it was Megazard who said that every game with Deospam is a close game and that really fits its current position in the meta for me, even if it can be incredibly threatening a single misplay can spell doom. It's still a strong archetype but I think Deoxys fits much better with Mewtwo for now since the two fulfill similar roles with different drawbacks.

Arceus-Dragon B -> B-

Not really speaking from experience here but Dragonceus just seems really out of place in B. It's not as great as it was last gen because checking PDon is less of a worry than it was and Dragonceus is no longer a great Rayquaza check since Mixed variants destroy it and LO DD can muscle past it. If anyone has used this and wants to correct me feel free but right now it seems like it would fit better with Poisonceus and Alolan Muk as a fairly niche but usable check to certain mons.

Giratina-Origin B- -> C+

Kinda similar to the Dragonceus nom but this is speaking more from experience since I had to use it for round 2 of CLC. It's become incredibly hard to justify using this Pokemon since there are much better PDon checks (Giratina-O usually doesn't run Rest) and it's kind of a crappy EKiller check because Shadow Claw is on all of them. Really it just doesn't check much anymore and is hard to fit on teams, I could see this dropping farther than C+ but we'll see.

Excadrill B- -> B

Excadrill's quite frankly an amazing lead, Rapid Spin and Mold Breaker Stealth Rocks means you win the hazard game almost all the time. Not much more to say other than having guaranteed rocks vs stall is amazing and it outleads most other things. B makes sense to me because that would put it in the same rank as Deoxys-Speed, and the two are equally viable as leads in my eyes.

Chansey C+ -> B-

Chansey does way too much for stall to be just C+. It's the best special wall in the game and with Confide it can check things that would otherwise break stall such as Calm Mind + Refresh Darkceus or Calm Mind POgre. It's also a fantastic cleric and has enough flexibility in its moveslot that it can often be a rocks setter or run Psychic to avoid being trapped by MGar. Blissey could rise too but I care less about that because Blissey is much less bulky.


 
#88
I definitely agree with Synoptic's nomination of Arceus-poison to B rank. Honestly, this thing is on par with dragonceus so I don't see why it should be ranked below it. As he mentioned, psychic moves on xern and hp ground are almost nonexistent this gen, which is a plus, although I don't think the whole baton pass counter thing matters much. Still, it can run a variety of sets. Psych up for countering xerneas seems to be the most frequently discussed set, but keep in mind it can also run swords dance + poison jab, and even a calm mind set. Unfortunately poison stab is not the greatest, but it does at least hit the majority of the meta neutrally. I have seen moongeistbeam5 use a swords dance acid downpour set and although it seems like a meme it is actually more potent than one might expect. Running sd + poison jab + eq + espeed/stone edge gives it pretty much perfect coverage. The existence of primal groudon and ghostceus, as well as deoxys spam tapu lele teams hurt its viability, but I mean, a lot of top tier threats have several counters so it's ok. Also, calm mind poisonceus is usually laughed at but the immunity to toxic enables it to set up calm minds without worrying about being stalled out, similarly to calm mind steelceus. The big advantage that calm mind poisonceus has over steelceus is not being weak to ho-oh. And yes pdon and steel types are a pain for it but it can run earth power or even flamethrower (which at +1 ohkos max special bulk ferrothorn due to the 4x effectiveness, this is also good against celesteela). B rank seems good for poisonceus but definitely not any higher.

Also, I like Thimo's suggestion of Yveltal from A+ down to A. Yes yveltal is very viable but it just doesn't seem on par with the other A+ mons. Thimo pretty much explains everything about it in his post.
 
#89
Big noms around high ranks:
Xerneas A- to A

I am nomming this yet again. You all seem to sleep on the powers of Xerneas in the tier, and how much it affects it and what not. There's 0 reliable switch ins to this thing, people are required at least 2 Xerneas checks on their team due to how scary its coverage is. Not even Rayquaza requires 2 checks, because every ekiller will scare it out. I think Xerneas is underexplored on the council's part of this spectrum. I don't think any of you ever use it, except Megazard with Specs sometimes. That's how kinda diminishing it is. I want you all to try various sets to rethink your previous decision before you straight up deny the nom again.
I agree with this nomination. While I was on board the "Xerneas is overrated in gen7" train earlier this gen, with people realizing how bad Magearna is as well as the decrease in phazing from my point of view has made Xerneas make quite the comeback. Yveltal's rise in SM AG is also a huge contributer to my support of this nomination (see below). Also people are really sleeping on Scarf/Specs sets, Scarf is a potent revenge killer and Specs can be an amazing wallbreaker.
Yveltal A+ to A
I'd say Yveltal does a bit too little to be A+, It doesn't have much versatility as more often than not they're either Offensive or Life Orb. Other non-standard sets like Specs and Scarf share the same coverage, and are easier to switch in to, simply because it's coverage isn't the best. Dark Pulse sure is strong, but if every supportceus that hits more than 326 speed walls it. It kinda loses it's purpose. If there's 1 hard wall it can't touch, it kinda is useless the whole game because it can't really wallbreak much. Against offensive teams, it's too slow. It comes short 3 speed points for Adamant Ray and most Offense teams have a Calm Mind Arceus somewhere. It's Defensive set is useless agaisnt bulkier teams, but nice against offense, however as I stated earlier. With Calm Mind Arceus forms it isn't really doing much. It requires a lot of team support to get around these problems. While it is still a good pokémon I think A+ is a little too much for it.
I'm going to disagree with this one here. Yveltal is one of the most versatile mons in the current metagame. You don't know if a Yveltal is going to be Defensive or Offensive when it switches in on you, so it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the opponent. I didn't hear a good defense of the Defensive Ygod set, which is extremely commonly seen and counters Ghostkiller, Ekiller, and soft checks mray. It is the only thing in the metagame that can beat Ghostkiller 100% of the time, and can run powerful wallbreaking sets and gets a Dark Aura boosted STAB priority in Sucker Punch. For that reason I disagree with the nom.
 

Thimo

I COULD BE BANNED!
#90
I'm going to disagree with this one here. Yveltal is one of the most versatile mons in the current metagame. You don't know if a Yveltal is going to be Defensive or Offensive when it switches in on you, so it puts a tremendous amount of pressure on the opponent. I didn't hear a good defense of the Defensive Ygod set, which is extremely commonly seen and counters Ghostkiller, Ekiller, and soft checks mray. It is the only thing in the metagame that can beat Ghostkiller 100% of the time, and can run powerful wallbreaking sets and gets a Dark Aura boosted STAB priority in Sucker Punch. For that reason I disagree with the nom.
How is it versatile if it only has an offensive set and a defensive set? It's not like they mix up moveslots a lot either. If you're using Offense, assume it's defensive, if you're using Stall, assume it's offensive. It's not that hard to play with a worst-case scenario mindset... Defensive Ygod isn't commonly seen. With about 25% of all Yveltal sets I wouldn't classify it as common, and especially not "extremely common". It doesn't counter Ekiller and it can only revenge kill unboosted non lo ray, not to mention that ghostkiller is easily beaten with any Ghost + Normal type on your team, so defensive yve isn't necessairy. Don't bold only as a thing that checks ghosty 100% of the time when theres even stuff that outclass it as a ghosty check (bulky normalceus), not to mentioin some ghosties use edge lol. I'm not saying yve sucks, but it isn't good enough for A+
 
#91
Alright, with the release of the new megas, I'd like to nom Mega Tyranitar for C+. Mega Tyranitar is great, especially when paired with support like gothitelle. At +1 and with rocks support, it can:-
OHKO ekillers at +1 (Low Kick), OHKO defensive yveltal(Stone Edge), 2HKOs giratina(Crunch), OHKO Mega Rayqyaza (Stone Edge), OHKO ghostceus, 56% chance to OHKO uninvested ferrothorn (Low Kick).
If you choose to run Ice Punch, in the same conditions (+1 and rocks) you have a 62.5% chance to OHKO max HP and Defense Zygarde 50%, and a guaranteed 2hko on max defense Zygarde Complete (if it is at 100% HP).

Fast support arceus formes like water and ground are 2hko'd, while Ttar can live a hit from them
+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ground: 250-296 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 174-206 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 249-294 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
4 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 174-206 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Apart from this, Mega Tyranitar is also pretty bulky. It can live a +1 1k Arrows from Zygarde, or two uninvested arrows.
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 138-164 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It can also live and Earthquake from a Groundceus
252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And a moonblast from xern
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And an Earthquake from LO Mray, or a waterfall from Banded ray, while banded EQ is still a roll
252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 260-306 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 281-333 (82.4 - 97.6%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 324-382 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

And a brick break + espeed+ SR damage from Ghostceus
252 Atk Arceus-Ghost Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 220-260 (64.5 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Arceus-Ghost Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 29-34 (8.5 - 9.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

And a EQ + espeed + SR damage from LO ekiller
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 56-66 (16.4 - 19.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 190-224 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Alright, to sum it up, M-Ttar has some nice bulk, while being a good offensive presence in a team. It tends to shine vs offensive teams, and I think that it deserves C+ at the least.
 
#92
Time for some monthly Hunter noms

Groudon-Primal A - A-/B+

I am going justify this nom more than the others, as P don has been an Ubers darling for far too long and it's just naturally assumed that it's as good in AG (it isn't even close)

Alright, the first and immediate reason why Dong isn't suited for the meta is its lack of longevity. As opposed to the Ubers meta, AG relies a lot on longevity in almost every team build. A major reason for this is the fact that lack of a Species Clause allows you to spam multiple Arceus forms, which can all pack recovery. You'll see a variety of CM mons which just aren't as viable/common in Ubers, a tier which relies on fast and hard hitting mons as opposed to the fat sweepers commonly seen in AG. What that does is firstly, any mons lacking any sort of recovery (except rest) become lesser desirable in AG. You naturally want something that can go toe-to-toe with most of the arcspam, and Primal Groudon just doesn't do that. This is unless, of course, you're capable of being an immediate threat to Arceus straight off of the bat, which again, Groudon-Primal is not. As a matter of fact, it is almost entirely worthless in most match-ups vs AG offense unless it is running an offensive set. And while the offensive sets are generally better suited for AG, they too suffer several issues like 4MSS, accuracy problems, being vulnerable to phazing or being really slow without rock polish, and just not being strong enough with it. Double dance seemingly fixes both those issues, but you just won't see it working a majority of the times in AG as P don just simply gets eliminated by then. Essentially, the offensive sets lack the reliability and consistency as the other three mons in A rank, coupled by the aforementioned longevity issues.


Another major issue why Primal Groudon is simply not worth the A rank is the fact that it simply is not as good a Stealth Rock setter as most of the other Arceus forms. A major reason why P don has been a significant threat over time has been the fact that it can set up rocks and pressure common defoggers with its incredibly high attack. However, this is almost entirely untrue in the common AG meta. Most players will agree that they often prefer that their opponent's rock setter be P don, as most offense based teams carry Arceus setters, which outclass it in every way, or common leads like Excadrill, Smeargle, Shuckle etc which have no issues whatsoever against Primal don. It's often quite lackluster as a setter and ends up giving momentum instead, by being taunted, set up on or doing absolutely nothing about the hazards on your end. As a lead, it won't be far-fetched to call it borderline bad in AG, as most of the common leads have no problems doing their job vs it and most defoggers find it easy to defog vs it. The Swords Dance + rocks set, while good, still is not nearly as effective in practice vs stall because Lugia + Giratina pressure it to death, not to mention the jump of usage Groundceus and Zygarde have seen in Gen 7. It's just really mediocre and not nearly as versatile in AG as it is in Ubers.


Finally, the last point to be mentioned in this post is Groudon's general inability to deal with the AG meta. Besides being terrible vs Mega Rayquaza, Groudon would surprisingly struggle to switch into anything comfortably that isn't called Primal Kyogre (while toxic/Ice beam is still a threat), while every single mon from S rank till B- rank (with the exception of Ferrothorn, Celesteela, Magearna and Muk-A) have some very obvious answers for Groudon without being ridiculously gimmicky. This results in Groudon being an extremely plain mon which will never impact as many games as you'd expect it to. It soft checks some mons like Xerneas, Arceus-Steel, Primal Kyogre and Rockceus, but due to its aforementioned lack on longevity, it just takes a major hit (all of the mons mentioned before 3hko it in the best case scenario) and has no way of recovering the damage done. Even if P don then chooses to set up, it is not overly difficult to switch into it for any playstyle as offense usually carries Mray/Groundceus/Zygarde/Ogre, all of which can comfortably OHKO don and usually outspeed it, whereas stall carries Lugia/Ground or water ceus/Giratina/Zygarde etc which wouldn't mind switching into most P don sets. The point is that no one particular set of Primal Groudon really stands out as meta changing enough in order for it to maintain its A rank, especially considering how game changing mons like Lunala, Xerneas, Celesteela and Ferrothorn struggle at A-. This is further reinforced by the fact that Groudon is quite simply the worst mon in A rank and barely justifies its presence with the mons in A-. I strongly recommend a drop to B+, but considering how this mon was placed at S last gen and hasn't really received a major nerf besides the rise of Zygarde and lesser keys spam, I'm fine with a drop to A-.


Lunala from A- to A

There are several reasons why Lunala has been one of the best additions of gen 7. It has some very versatile and very viable sets, namely choice scarf which acts as an anti offense set, choice specs/CM Sub Lunala which are especially brilliant at breaking stall and Z move Lunala which is just a brilliant mon overall but specifically good vs balance. In this way, you have one single mon running on several offense-based teams for several different purposes. Another lesser appreciated Lunala set is defensive leftovers, which is more than viable on stall (with access to wisp + roost + shadow shield). Lunala is particularly difficult to switch into as it has one of the best special coverage in the meta. It is clear that this is one of the most versatile mons in the game right now, and pretty capable of being viable which each of its sets. It helps that Moongeist Beam is specifically good vs stall, as even with its weaker choice scarf set, Lunala is able to threaten several stall builds if rocks are up.

Some fun calcs



252+ SpA Choice Specs Lunala Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 246-289 (59.2 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lunala Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 297-351 (46.3 - 54.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lunala Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 384-452 (100.7 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO OR
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 240-283 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lunala Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 382-450 (97.2 - 114.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 216-255 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Z Move Lunala - I'm drawing special attention to this particular set as it is yet to be explored to its full potential in AG. Along with the ability to spam sleep, Z move Lunala gains a really important speed boost which often renders Hypnosis' inaccuracy a non-issue. At +1, Lunala outspeeds every relevant mon in the meta except Deo S, and hits extremely hard with moongeist + moonblast. If the 60% accuracy move does actually hit and Lunala gets a few good sleep turns, it's almost immediately GG as calm mind + speed boosted Lunala is borderline impossible to stop, not to mention that it can spam Hypnosis again as a last ditch effort. Why this is different from gimmicks like Hypnosis Mgar is because Lunala's speed boost coupled with its e speed resistance and CM access (not to mention its general ability to tank hits better than Mgar) make it much less about the Hypnosis accuracy and more about the boosts that it receives, coupled with the added X factor of sleep abuse. There is also an alternative of going for Fmiss over Mblast to better deal with Arceus (check specs calcs, as +1 lunala = specs), but that usually ends up making Lunala completely luck reliant and overly dependent on Hypnosis accuracy vs Yveltal.

Base Kyogre B- to C/C-

This might seem like a sudden and harsh nom, but why is base kyogre ranked so high again? Never mind that it is completely irrelevant in the present meta; a meta infested by e speed priority and weather overlapping, never mind that it is set up fodder for Mega Rayquaza and Primal Groudon, never mind that it is actually ranked above Blissey, Chansey, Tapu Lele, Base Don, Jirachi, Grassceus, Zekrom, Kartana, Shuckle, Clefable, Mega Scizor, Mega Gyarados, Cloyster, Arceus-Electric/Flying, never mind that it has basically no usage or any potential usage on ladder or anywhere, the facts that it simply can't do anything special that another scarf user like Lunala/Xern can't already do, it has to rely on 30% accuracy moves to deal with its checks and usually becomes crippled immediately, is incredibly difficult to fit on a standard AG team without having specific support for it and still not managing to do anything special and it's just generally really bad should really have been reason enough for this rank not being justified for Base Ogre. I'm sure this has been nommed to drop in the past, but still surprised to see that this managed to be here all this while.


For the record I agree with both of the above noms, here are some of my own:

Mega Gengar A+ -> S

This has been brought up before but I'd like to open discussion on it again. In my eyes MGar is easily on par with Mega Rayquaza in the current meta for a multitude of reasons. Arceus spam is gaining traction at the moment so MGar is only getting better, it's higher speed tier and ESpeed immunity make it exceptional against such team. It's overall one of the best (if not the best) revenge killers in the tier thanks to Shadow Tag, enabling it to take out Arceus forms and Rayquaza after chip damage or drops. Stall also has a really hard time dealing with it, so much so that things like Psychic Chansey and Lugia are viable to deal with it. MGar may not have item versatility like Rayquaza but through changing its moveset it can drastically change the threats it traps. Sub + Disable, Reflect Type, Focus Blast and Taunt + Destiny Bond are all capable of trapping different threats with little to no counterplay depending on the circumstance. MGar has always been S in my eyes for its ability to perform so many roles in just one teamslot, and against almost any team to boot. My reasoning for wanting it to be placed alongside MRay is that the two are both versatile in many matchups and can work around their checks to some degree. MGar is certainly a cut above all of the other A+ ranked Pokemon and the rankings should be changed to reflect that.

Deoxys-Attack A- -> B+
Even though Deospam is still incredibly threatening, it's becoming harder to justify due to how unreliable it is. Deospam can be pressured incredibly easily with little more than a Scarfer and some decent hazard control. I think it was Megazard who said that every game with Deospam is a close game and that really fits its current position in the meta for me, even if it can be incredibly threatening a single misplay can spell doom. It's still a strong archetype but I think Deoxys fits much better with Mewtwo for now since the two fulfill similar roles with different drawbacks.
Arceus-Dragon B -> B-

Not really speaking from experience here but Dragonceus just seems really out of place in B. It's not as great as it was last gen because checking PDon is less of a worry than it was and Dragonceus is no longer a great Rayquaza check since Mixed variants destroy it and LO DD can muscle past it. If anyone has used this and wants to correct me feel free but right now it seems like it would fit better with Poisonceus and Alolan Muk as a fairly niche but usable check to certain mons.

Giratina-Origin B- -> C+

Kinda similar to the Dragonceus nom but this is speaking more from experience since I had to use it for round 2 of CLC. It's become incredibly hard to justify using this Pokemon since there are much better PDon checks (Giratina-O usually doesn't run Rest) and it's kind of a crappy EKiller check because Shadow Claw is on all of them. Really it just doesn't check much anymore and is hard to fit on teams, I could see this dropping farther than C+ but we'll see.
Excadrill B- -> B

Excadrill's quite frankly an amazing lead, Rapid Spin and Mold Breaker Stealth Rocks means you win the hazard game almost all the time. Not much more to say other than having guaranteed rocks vs stall is amazing and it outleads most other things. B makes sense to me because that would put it in the same rank as Deoxys-Speed, and the two are equally viable as leads in my eyes.
Chansey C+ -> B-

Chansey does way too much for stall to be just C+. It's the best special wall in the game and with Confide it can check things that would otherwise break stall such as Calm Mind + Refresh Darkceus or Calm Mind POgre. It's also a fantastic cleric and has enough flexibility in its moveslot that it can often be a rocks setter or run Psychic to avoid being trapped by MGar. Blissey could rise too but I care less about that because Blissey is much less bulky.
I support all these noms except Mgar, as I just don't see it being good enough for S
Nominating Volbeat for D rank

Access to prankster setup, in addition to encore makes it a nice stat passing mon on offensive teams. As seen in the replays below, it is a reliable strategy in AG. I feel it has increased in viability from last gen, as it gained access to infestation. In comparision, no other pokemon can perform the role that Volbeat does. There are two viable variations of the set:-

Volbeat @ Normalium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Tail Glow
- Baton Pass
- Infestation

OR the set carried over from last gen :-

Volbeat @ Normalium Z
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Tail Glow
- Baton Pass
- Psych Up

The psych up variation of the set allows it to psych up Xerneas' boosts, with the spread letting it live a moon blast after rocks. However, the infestation variation lets you trap any setup bait, such as Shuckle. Normalium Z gives access to Z-encore, which lets you pass +1 speed along with your Tail Glow boosts.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-577725502 VS Catalystic
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-578530596 VS Lotiasite
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-579846695 VS Purple Gatorade
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-582660425 VS Fardin
I support. No more boosts after D, though. Calls for a very specific type of build and is pretty gimmicky.
Big noms around high ranks:
Xerneas A- to A

I am nomming this yet again. You all seem to sleep on the powers of Xerneas in the tier, and how much it affects it and what not. There's 0 reliable switch ins to this thing, people are required at least 2 Xerneas checks on their team due to how scary its coverage is. Not even Rayquaza requires 2 checks, because every ekiller will scare it out. I think Xerneas is underexplored on the council's part of this spectrum. I don't think any of you ever use it, except Megazard with Specs sometimes. That's how kinda diminishing it is. I want you all to try various sets to rethink your previous decision before you straight up deny the nom again.
Yveltal A+ to A
I'd say Yveltal does a bit too little to be A+, It doesn't have much versatility as more often than not they're either Offensive or Life Orb. Other non-standard sets like Specs and Scarf share the same coverage, and are easier to switch in to, simply because it's coverage isn't the best. Dark Pulse sure is strong, but if every supportceus that hits more than 326 speed walls it. It kinda loses it's purpose. If there's 1 hard wall it can't touch, it kinda is useless the whole game because it can't really wallbreak much. Against offensive teams, it's too slow. It comes short 3 speed points for Adamant Ray and most Offense teams have a Calm Mind Arceus somewhere. It's Defensive set is useless agaisnt bulkier teams, but nice against offense, however as I stated earlier. With Calm Mind Arceus forms it isn't really doing much. It requires a lot of team support to get around these problems. While it is still a good pokémon I think A+ is a little too much for it.
I support Xern nom.
Alright, with the release of the new megas, I'd like to nom Mega Tyranitar for C+. Mega Tyranitar is great, especially when paired with support like gothitelle. At +1 and with rocks support, it can:-
OHKO ekillers at +1 (Low Kick), OHKO defensive yveltal(Stone Edge), 2HKOs giratina(Crunch), OHKO Mega Rayqyaza (Stone Edge), OHKO ghostceus, 56% chance to OHKO uninvested ferrothorn (Low Kick).
If you choose to run Ice Punch, in the same conditions (+1 and rocks) you have a 62.5% chance to OHKO max HP and Defense Zygarde 50%, and a guaranteed 2hko on max defense Zygarde Complete (if it is at 100% HP).

Fast support arceus formes like water and ground are 2hko'd, while Ttar can live a hit from them
+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ground: 250-296 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 174-206 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Tyranitar-Mega Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 249-294 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
4 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 174-206 (51 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Apart from this, Mega Tyranitar is also pretty bulky. It can live a +1 1k Arrows from Zygarde, or two uninvested arrows.
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 138-164 (40.4 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It can also live and Earthquake from a Groundceus
252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And a moonblast from xern
252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And an Earthquake from LO Mray, or a waterfall from Banded ray, while banded EQ is still a roll
252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 260-306 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 281-333 (82.4 - 97.6%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 324-382 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

And a brick break + espeed+ SR damage from Ghostceus
252 Atk Arceus-Ghost Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 220-260 (64.5 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Arceus-Ghost Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 29-34 (8.5 - 9.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

And a EQ + espeed + SR damage from LO ekiller
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 56-66 (16.4 - 19.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar-Mega: 190-224 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Alright, to sum it up, M-Ttar has some nice bulk, while being a good offensive presence in a team. It tends to shine vs offensive teams, and I think that it deserves C+ at the least.

Finally, I support this.
 

Megazard

I'll show you the life of the mind!
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BSS Tour Champion
#93
Hi it's the mean guy who disagrees with all the popular nominations. I just wanted to hit a few of the big things because there hasn't been much actual debate (hint hint!) and we (vr council) kind of want to do an update soonish. You know it's ok to post in disagreement with things.

Volbeat (to D)- Like Garchomp and Rhyperior (muh boy), this is a case of a mon that technically does something nothing else can and could get used on a team that turns out passable but it still shouldn't get ranked. Failing significant success that suddenly publicly proves its value, it still comes off as a dumb gimmick and that's fine to use but I'd rather not be quite that liberal with VR. It wouldn't be the worst thing to rank I just don't see why.

Mega Gengar (A+ to S)- Teams simply don't warp around Gengar. A+ is a great ranking for a very good and potent attacker that has a strong, clearly defined niche, but Gengar doesn't push off to be that significant best to me. It's just not /quite/ as scary as Rayquaza.

Excadrill (B- to B)- I really see leads sorta falling off a bit, and Exca doesn't provide as much to a team as more staple B mons like Magearna and Giratina can. It's got one job with lots of competition, I'm not quite ready to say that it's improved.

Pdon (A to A-/B+)- The first few drafts of this response started with LMFAO but lemme just say this: Pretty much every sentence of that underrated Pdon for what seems like no particular reason. Offensive sets got brushed off for accuracy issues (not a significant factor) and talks abut offensive checks that can be shaky for various reasons as opposed to it's wallbreaking potential. The post references its placing last gen and its position in ubers, which does not affect its ranking here (and I don't think those are sources of bias). The post also focuses too heavily on more mediocre longevity rather than its dominance while out, and pretends that its eventual impermanence depletes the significant splashability of a Pokemon that can soft check to counter 90% of the metagame. I just don't think there's a real acknowledgement of versatility and the practical roles Pdon plays as evidenced by "its almost worthless versus offense". How many variants of offense have no mons checked by Pdon not including f6 mono-groundceus? I just find it very hard to turn the arguments in my head into concrete counterpoints when I fundamentally disagree with pretty much everything said and want to forget all about this, from the idea that it's a poor SR setter to the idea that Pdon is less game-changing than Ferrothorn, so if nothing else take this as my official "oh god absolutely not" stance.

Lunala (A- to A)- I just think this post overrates specs. Wanna talk about mons that need less accurate moves to succeed, try a mon that has notable resists for every move it could possibly want to run that get a massive benefit out of coming in on the correct move. Lunala's really good, but I think all of its sets are either a bit weak or a bit dependent on matchup and other factors to wallbreak effectively. It fits really well in A-, I just don't see it with Fairyceus etc. It's not quite that scary for a Ghost.

Kyogre (B- to C/C-)- C- is simply too low for reg ogre and I wouldn't even mind keeping it in C+. The nom sounds like it's slightly less from actual experience, "it cant do anything that another scarfer cant do" isn't my experience and I'd reccomend looking at it for what it brings as one of the strongest immediate nukes with that speed. I also never once clicked Sheer Cold before removing it for sheer uselessness, don't even bother factoring that in. Desparately wished I saved recent replays with it, but it's worth using.

My own nominations cuz why not

Celesteela (A- to A)- Third most splashable mon after all Arceus formes combined and Pdon (and arguably not that for some people). It's the reason certain other steels arent as good, you cant fit them with a Celesteela. There's almost no immunities to Leech so it's a large pain to switch into, and nothing without reliable recover is going to stop it for long. The set can also be vital, Toxic and Flame Charge have to be dealt with completely differently. The worst thing about it is how badly it can backfire when faced with very particular lures (sub ekiller, an unexpected VC ray), and I'm a bit on the fence about its real impact but this is absolutely worth discussing imo.

Pogre (A- to B+)- This just isn't that splashable of a pick. It takes a specific kind of team to support Pogre, the need to have solid switchins to Pdon and Ray is a big limitation to start but all the set versatility in the world can't help it if it's constantly annoyed by hazards and status. I've been running offensive RestTalk recently just trying to get around that, it's been an ordeal but passable. When you get it working it's a great breaker, but it requires a lot to do that and I just don't think it's quite on that A rank level.

TTar/Grassceus/Clefable C to C+, Dialga/Zekrom/Ray C+ to C- Lower ranks started out when we had much less of an idea about the metagame, but as AG is evolving I think we're seeing more success from the former 3 than we expected and a lot less from the latter. These should all be fairly self-evident, but if anyone disagrees I'll actually try to back them up. I'd love to see more opinions on shifting around lower ranks as well, there's a lot of stuff like Jirachi, Kyuw, Regdon, Bronzong, etc. that's sitting around on general theorymon and I can't nominate them to change without knowing anything.
 
#94
The post references its placing last gen and its position in ubers, which does not affect its ranking here (and I don't think those are sources of bias).
I mean, the entire VR was made directly off of gen 6 rankings and there have only been minor adjustments here and there. Gen 6 rankings were influenced heavily by Ubers rankings considering P don was S even though it was debated heavily whether or not it should be and drops for P don and Xerneas were often discussed in VR but never quite panned out. You're missing the entire point of me bringing this up, which was to reassess Groudon's viability in gen 7 AG separate from its viability in Ubers/Gen 6 AG as the metagame has changed significantly, and not necessarily trying to establish a bias for keeping this high up. That being said, you can't just say there was no influence of gen 6 rankings at all as all of the S rank mons started off pretty high with the exception of the obvious nerf for Darkrai.

The post also focuses too heavily on more mediocre longevity rather than its dominance while out, and pretends that its eventual impermanence depletes the significant splashability of a Pokemon that can soft check to counter 90% of the metagame.
Lol what are you on about. Soft checking stuff is an argument when you can actually fall back on any recovery whatsoever, which P don doesn't have. You can't simply expect it to safely come in on 1v1 situations (even where you're highly overrating its value), while its lack of recovery entirely eliminates the idea of it countering most things consistently. It is specifically and consistently brushed off by a majority of the meta. I didn't want to have to explain this but okay.
Mega Rayquaza - Can't touch it unless packing dragon stab which is already an issue with its 4MSS. Heavily mismatched to fight this off anyway.
Arc-Ghost - Ghostceus beats it 1v1. Best play is to phaze.
Arc-Normal - +2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 354-419 (93.4 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yveltal - Outspeeds and tanks all its hits, beats it 1v1
Zygarde - Specifically designed to set up on P don and potentially sweep
Arceus-Fairy - Toxic chip + EP, can beat it 1v1 with EP.
Arceus-Steel - 2hko'd by EP unless sp def which I've mentioned is pretty mediocre, and this is supposed to be one of the mons P don counters.
Arceus-Ground - counters dong pretty hard considering eruption isn't an AG thing, beats it 1v1.
Arceus-Water - toxic chip + recovery, beats all sets except SD 1v1.
Deo-A - psycho boost OHKO in its most viable strategy, beats it 1v1.
Kyogre-P - I'll refrain from stating the obvious weather condition issue here, will beat it 1v1 if rain.
Lunala - 2HKO's it, beats it 1v1.

These were just the mons till A-. It's really no use trying to establish dong as the ultimate reliable mon when it isn't switching into anything without being slowly chipped out of the game and to say that it soft checks or counters (I wanna say lmfao) 90% of the metagame is farcical to the extent of being completely ignorant about the meta. I'm not denying that it checks certain mons, but it is by no means a splashable mon which just does fine vs everything and the same is an incredibly archaic assumption not true in the present meta whatsoever, and to assume that P don is a counter for 90% of the metagame is just borderline petty.

I just don't think there's a real acknowledgement of versatility and the practical roles Pdon plays as evidenced by "its almost worthless versus offense". How many variants of offense have no mons checked by Pdon not including f6 mono-groundceus?
Once again, you're assuming dong will be able to check things consistently. I reiterate its lack of any form of recovery, and at best, it can hope for a free turn to set up RP/SD and still not guarantee a sweep. We're ranking a mon A without even having one particular set clearly identified and celebrated by the majority in AG. There's a reason why P don is not splashed in most teams and is not as exclusive as you claim it to be, because several other things do its job without being inherently slow or 2hko'd by a majority of the meta or lacking recovery or having issues deciding one specific moveset. Not to mention ground coverage is probably the most common on offense, and literally everything on common AG HO can 2hko p don sets. You're also assuming that we're having to struggle vs offense and that's fine because we're doing amazing vs stall, which is not the case at all. Even with SD, P don struggles to consistently break stall (Lugia/Zyg/Gira cores previously mentioned) and often fails to do the 'wallbreaking' job it is supposed to do as a wallbreaker. It is the definition of mediocrity no matter what set you use, and offers nothing so consistently spectacular that we allow it to hold its ranks despite its drop in usage.


Lunala (A- to A)- I just think this post overrates specs. Wanna talk about mons that need less accurate moves to succeed, try a mon that has notable resists for every move it could possibly want to run that get a massive benefit out of coming in on the correct move. Lunala's really good, but I think all of its sets are either a bit weak or a bit dependent on matchup and other factors to wallbreak effectively. It fits really well in A-, I just don't see it with Fairyceus etc. It's not quite that scary for a Ghost.
The post had several other sets mentioned, the calcs for specs was provided to note how difficult it is for anything in the meta to switch into this set, not to mention Lunala forces out several mons with its hard hitting stab and excellent coverage. There is an obvious lack of exploration of Lunala's sets rn, and I think the assumption that it doesn't effectively wallbreak stems from the same basis. It is one of the most reliable and consistent wallbreakers out there, and can function quite well in several other roles with the versatility with which it can use its items.


Kyogre (B- to C/C-)- C- is simply too low for reg ogre and I wouldn't even mind keeping it in C+. The nom sounds like it's slightly less from actual experience, "it cant do anything that another scarfer cant do" isn't my experience and I'd reccomend looking at it for what it brings as one of the strongest immediate nukes with that speed. I also never once clicked Sheer Cold before removing it for sheer uselessness, don't even bother factoring that in. Desparately wished I saved recent replays with it, but it's worth using.
As this has seen basically no usage and I can't comprehend a reliable way for it to be very threatening without being setup fodder in most cases (except specific endgame scenarios where you'll have to have played the entire game very conservatively), I think a drop is in order unless there is a very obvious reason not to. I looked at the mons in C+ rank, and while I think some of them are due for a push (namely bliss-chans-Lele), I think Base Ogre for C+ will be fine. I'll edit my original post.
 

Chloe

;w;
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#95
The council have voted in support of the following nominations.
Code:
Tapu Lele (C+ to B-)
Xerneas (A- to A)
Dragon Arceus (B to B-)
Chansey (C+ to B-)
Mega Tyranitar (Unranked to C+)
Kyogre (B- to C+)
Primal Kyogre (A- to B+)
Tyranitar (C to C+)
Grass Arceus (C to C+)
Rayquaza (C+ to C)
Zekrom (C+ to C)
Celesteela (A- to A)
Giratina-O (B- to C+)
Yveltal (A+ to A)
As always, supporting and rebutting nominations helps if you have solid evidence, so please feel free to if someone brings up a rank change you feel strongly about or disagree with.

Poison Arceus (B- to B)
Mega Gengar (A+ to S)
Excadrill (B- to B)
Lunala (A- to A)
Clefable (C to C+)
Dialga (C+ to C)
Primal Groudon (A to A-/B+)
Deoxys-A (A- to B+)
Volbeat (unranked to D)
 
#96
hi there :) making a nomination for Mega Mewtwo Y:
from B- to B
I've been using this thing quite a bit lately with a new team I made, and its Calm Mind set is pretty good. Calm Mind + Psystrike is great for beating CM Arceus formes 1v1, and MMY also has great coverage like Ice Beam and Fire Blast to patch up its weaknesses. I frankly think it's better than regular Mewtwo, mostly because its 140 Speed tier is so good, beating Mega Gengar, Arceus formes, and pretty much everything besides Deoxys, which can't really do anything to it anyway. I really love Mega Mewtwo Y + Tapu Lele, since Psychic Terrain removes MMY's weakness to priority (Sucker Punch and Espeed) and makes Psystrike hit devastatingly hard. Overall, MMY is a pretty good setup sweeper and revenge killer with a ton of coverage options and moves, so I think it should rise :) feel free to discuss this, though
 

Thimo

I COULD BE BANNED!
#98
Magearna B to C+
Even though Magearna checks Xerneas and Yveltal, it still kinda lacks. It has a ton of switch ins, Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, any supportarc not weak to its STABs, and pretty much every Steel type ever like Ferrothorn and Celesteela, and basically anything with recovery such as Lugia. Even though it has access to Volt Switch, it is quite weak and can be played around. Marshadow making an entrance decreased Baton Pass's viability, thus also indirectly Magearna's. Magearna is quite exploitable as well, you can set hazards and Defog on it, as well as setup with your physical sweeper. Which doesn't care much about Heart Swap as it can just setup again.

tl;dr Most of the time it's just a sitting duck.
 

Ransei

Let legends be real
#99
Nominating Mimikyu Unranked to D

I personally think that Mimikyu, while not being the best Pokemon in Anything Goes, has the potential to go at least to D rank.

It's quite absurd how without rocks every Mimikyu takes 3 hits to KO if it carries a Focus Sash, and 2 hits to KO if it carries Ghostium Z. With its ghost-typing, it's immune to the most efficient priority move, Extreme Speed. Even when you do set up rocks, Mimikyu provides seemingly good core with any bulky defogger and it becomes a war over who gets the advantage.

Mandibuzz, an example of a bulky defogger that Mimikyu can perform a core with, can learn both Taunt and Defog being able to stop several Pokemon from having full access to Stealth Rock, causing Mimikyu to gain benefit by giving them a free turn to use Swords Dance. Mimikyu also comes at a decent base speed, being faster than a good bit of Uber Pokemon at max speed, more specifically cover legends and is capable of outspeeding Pokemon up to base 110 speed if they have the maximum speed EVs, but not a high speed nature. Bulkier Pokemon that lack significant recovery could also suffer from chip damage if they run bulkier sets.

Its biggest weaknesses are its Attack stat, its movepool knowing that Ghost isn't the best physical offense move, and any kind of Mold Breaker, Teravolt, or Turboblaze Pokemon.
Mimikyu has a decent Attack stat for OU, but it kinda cuts short of being any good in AG without set up. With one Swords Dance, it's able to beat Ubers that are weak to it pretty easily, but nothing much else. It's not here to stay long, but it's here to chip as much off one Pokemon as possible. It is also able to withstand hazards more than the majority of the other Pokemon in the metagame, as it needs to at least take one hit before its HP lowers most of the time.

With a combination of Swords Dance, Substitute, Ghostium Z/Fairium Z, and Shadow Claw/Play Rough, it can set up on slower, bulkier Pokemon that don't have Whirlwind or Roar and it can force them to either switch out or pp stall their recovery. Otherwise, Smeargle could also form a core and run Ingrain, Stick Web, and Baton Pass. Mimikyu could be optimized enough to become useful during important parts of AG battles with the help of Smeargle and defoggers supporting it.

Tell me what you think about Mimikyu. Should it stay below the bottom of the barrel, or should it become a hardly notable Pokemon in this metagame?
 

Thimo

I COULD BE BANNED!
Nominating Mimikyu Unranked to D

I personally think that Mimikyu, while not being the best Pokemon in Anything Goes, has the potential to go at least to D rank.

It's quite absurd how without rocks every Mimikyu takes 3 hits to KO if it carries a Focus Sash, and 2 hits to KO if it carries Ghostium Z. With its ghost-typing, it's immune to the most efficient priority move, Extreme Speed. Even when you do set up rocks, Mimikyu provides seemingly good core with any bulky defogger and it becomes a war over who gets the advantage.

Mandibuzz, an example of a bulky defogger that Mimikyu can perform a core with, can learn both Taunt and Defog being able to stop several Pokemon from having full access to Stealth Rock, causing Mimikyu to gain benefit by giving them a free turn to use Swords Dance. Mimikyu also comes at a decent base speed, being faster than a good bit of Uber Pokemon at max speed, more specifically cover legends and is capable of outspeeding Pokemon up to base 110 speed if they have the maximum speed EVs, but not a high speed nature. Bulkier Pokemon that lack significant recovery could also suffer from chip damage if they run bulkier sets.

Its biggest weaknesses are its Attack stat, its movepool knowing that Ghost isn't the best physical offense move, and any kind of Mold Breaker, Teravolt, or Turboblaze Pokemon.
Mimikyu has a decent Attack stat for OU, but it kinda cuts short of being any good in AG without set up. With one Swords Dance, it's able to beat Ubers that are weak to it pretty easily, but nothing much else. It's not here to stay long, but it's here to chip as much off one Pokemon as possible. It is also able to withstand hazards more than the majority of the other Pokemon in the metagame, as it needs to at least take one hit before its HP lowers most of the time.

With a combination of Swords Dance, Substitute, Ghostium Z/Fairium Z, and Shadow Claw/Play Rough, it can set up on slower, bulkier Pokemon that don't have Whirlwind or Roar and it can force them to either switch out or pp stall their recovery. Otherwise, Smeargle could also form a core and run Ingrain, Stick Web, and Baton Pass. Mimikyu could be optimized enough to become useful during important parts of AG battles with the help of Smeargle and defoggers supporting it.

Tell me what you think about Mimikyu. Should it stay below the bottom of the barrel, or should it become a hardly notable Pokemon in this metagame?
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