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Arceus Dark from B+ -> B-

With much less ghostceus and more marshadow and thus more xerneas this mon is significantly worse.

Skarmory from B+ -> B

This thing was B+ last gen, and it's clearly a lot less good now due to less ekillers and more special attackers, shouldn't be the same rank. In addition, it competes with celesteela.

Chansey from B -> C+

While this mon is undeniably good, it requires massive team support to work, thus making it more of a C-rank mon than a B rank mon.

Shuckle from B- -> C+

Same as chansey, entire team has to built around shuckle, thus once again requiring massive team support.
 

Pigeons

formerly Yuga42
Chansey from B -> C+

While this mon is undeniably good, it requires massive team support to work, thus making it more of a C-rank mon than a B rank mon.
Agree on the other mons but don't quite agree here. Chansey doesn't require an exceptional amount more team support than mons around it or even some in higher rankings. Chansey is typically only found on stall, where having physical attackers handled and some way of dealing with MGar is already the norm so the "massive team support" it requires doesn't involve warping your entire teambuild around it in most cases. Chansey balances are fairly niche and do require a fair amount of support but given how effortlessly it can fit on stall and the massive utility it provides I believe it should stay B.

A few more noms:

Arceus-Water A- -> B+

With Toxic becoming the norm on PDon, fairly common on Ho-Oh and increasing on Zygarde, Arceus-Water struggles to act as reliable checks to the Pokemon due to its inability to threaten them with direct damage (if it opts for Ice Beam it can't do much to Ho-Oh while Zygarde can beat Judgment variants) and reliance on Toxic. Ho-Oh's Regenerator and Zygarde's (and occasionally PDon's) Rest means status isn't an optimal way to deal with these Pokemon, particularly when Arceus-Water can't deal with Toxic damage from those Pokemon very easily. It's still a decent choice but the rise of Toxic on the Pokemon in wants to check make metagame conditions overall less hospitable to Arceus-Water.

Klefki C -> D / Unranked

While in theory this still has a niche it's too small to deserve being ranked so high. Prankster is no longer what it used to be, in addition to Dark-types gaining an immunity the moves that made Prankster so useful last gen suffered nerfs as well. SwagPlay no longer being viable coupled with the fact that Thunder Wave is no longer sufficient to check setup sweepers means that Klefki is only left with Prankster Dual Screens as a niche, which is a small enough niche in the first place but it also has serious competition from Deoxys-S, which has access to Taunt, Stealth Rock and Skill Swap in addition to Spikes and Screens, and while not quite priority 180 Speed means being outsped is hardly a worry. Immensely superior options in both the role of a Spikes-setting Screen user and a defensive Fairy/Steel type lead me to think Klefki should either drop to D or be unranked entirely.

On an aside, I think it'd be helpful for facilitating discussion if for the next few updates some reasoning could be included on the changes that occur, particularly if no discussion of it happened in this thread. I myself am wondering why Giratina-O rose (it's had very little successful usage and doesn't really check things that well anymore), but I'm sure other people have questions as well. Overall I think the VR is starting to look good though so thanks to the council for working so hard to polish it up.
 
Erotic Pigeons said:
Agree on the other mons but don't quite agree here. Chansey doesn't require an exceptional amount more team support than mons around it or even some in higher rankings. Chansey is typically only found on stall, where having physical attackers handled and some way of dealing with MGar is already the norm so the "massive team support" it requires doesn't involve warping your entire teambuild around it in most cases. Chansey balances are fairly niche and do require a fair amount of support but given how effortlessly it can fit on stall and the massive utility it provides I believe it should stay B.
The fact that Chansey can ONLY belong on stall makes it extremely niche, in addition, it is outclassed by the likes of ferrothorn, xern, ho-oh, pdon, and pogre in terms of the roles it can fulfill on most teams, thus making it require massive team support in stall mons. Thus, I still stand by my nom that Chansey should get dropped.

Another nom: (courtesy of Ransei)

After discussing this with Ransei, I definitely agree to at least make the first step in the dropping of Arceus.

Arceus from A+ -> A.

This thing is no longer a powerhouse, and while it saw some resurgence, Marshadow has certainly hurt ekiller's popularity as sets like Chople Berry are becoming viable shows that Arceus should at least receive a drop to A.

Xerneas A -> A+
Erotic Pigeons said:

Xerneas
was good before but now it's pretty incredible. With the huge number of threats in the meta at the moment, it's increasingly difficult for teams to fit reliable answers to both Geomancy and Z-Geomancy Xerneas variants. Teams almost always need 2+ answers to it, a durable Steel-type like Ferrothorn for Z-Geomancy and then something like Roar PDon to handle Geomancy. The few things that do check both variants like Magearna are quite easy to take advantage of with a powerful wallbreaker such as Primal Groudon, so Xerneas can provide many openings for a team in that sense as well. Its typing is also a boon for offensive teams as it somewhat eases the matchup against Marshadow, once of the biggest threats to HO teams.
In all seriousness, Xern is good. With the drop in Pdon, just regular geo has an ability to sweep. Z-Geo as pigeons said is incredibly dangerous and requires a pretty sophisticated check to beat (Ferro, Heavy Slam Celesteela, Mons that can wear down z-Geo Xern + Marsh), thus making it dangerous as well. In addition, scarf and specs sets can serve as wallbreakers and revenge killers while serving as a cleric. With the rise of POgre, Xern should definitely improve as they pair together extremely well, with pogre beating many of xerns checks and pressuring teams so that Xern can win.
  • Pdon Down
  • Scarf + Specs Up
  • Pogre Up
  • Ho-oh Down
  • It Beats Marshadow too
 
: A to A-
Fairyceus is good at checking a few key threats, most notably mega ray, marshadow, zygod, and Yveltal, but it honestly provides so many free switch-ins that it shouldn't be in A where I feel like other Pokemon don't have as big of flaws as it does. Every time I used fairyceus it was consistent and doing its job but also consistent at being unable to do anything to any steel-type ever, and I've seen too many steelceus, ferrothorns, and celesteelas while laddering. Any other flaw would be fine honestly but providing free switches causes such a momentum loss that I feel like it should drop a rank. I often find Groundceus checks most of the things fairyceus checks just as well anyway, minus Yveltal.

: B- to B or B+
I was surprised to find Magearna that low honestly. I've used her on the team I used most (s/o to Catalystic for it btw) and she was always consistent and never felt like deadweight, not as much as Fairyceus felt against steels anyway lol. With Volt Switch she can easily get momentum against a lot of switch-ins bar pdon, and having that typing + heart swap lets it check a bunch of shit, including auto-winning vs bp, xerneas, yveltal, and some variants of calm mind arceus-types, which imo is a big enough niche to let it not be in B-. She can also be a rather soft mega ray check which is always nice to have. It does suck that she's such a big pdon magnet but eh.

I also legitimately think megengar and groundceus have solid arguments to be placed S but I'll leave that for another day tbh.
 
havent posted here in a while so might as well take a go at it.
thoughts:
Xerneas to A+ support
this should definitely rise. it puts in work against every playstyle besides stall, and specs, geo, z-geo, and scarf are all viable sets, leading to a bit of unpredictability. there are so many viable teammates like pdon, marshadow, mgar, and mray that can easily break down xerneas's answers, which are already pretty limited. the increased usage of pdon, ho-oh, and poisonceus hurts xern a bit, but they're all easy to take advantage of with mons like pogre. specs wallbreaks so much if they don't have an answer like celesteela, ferro, or ho-oh, and proper prediction on your part makes these easy to bypass. after their answer is gone, z-geo or geo xern just sweeps with ease. increased viability of pdon and ho-oh has both hurt and helped xern, but their ability to destroy pretty much all of xern's checks like mag, ferro, and celesteela. specs paired with other wallbreakers just makes it easy for something like dd mray to sweep later in the game.

Arceus to A: neutral leaning towards support
i don't necessarily support nor object to this nom, but marshadow's existence has definitely hurt this mon, forcing it to run things like chople berry. zygarde and arceus-ghost dropping in usage has made Arceus's job a little easier, though arguably arceus-ground does its job better thanks to its better coverage and better typing, which allows it to beat the ever-rising poisonceus as well as pdon much more easily. groundceus gets more setup opportunities and doesn't get destroyed by marsh (most of the time, just don't be too ambitious). celesteela rising also hurts arceus, since arceus has pretty much no way of breaking past it. again, i don't feel adamant either way, but it should probably drop.

Magearna to B/B+: disagree
nothing has really changed for this mon besides xern rising in popularity, but it's still worn down so easily and invites in too many mons for free. hooh and pdon becoming better has only made things worse. lack of recovery + low speed hurts this mon a lot, as a properly played xerneas can wear down magearna enough to wear it can sweep with geomancy anyway. i used to use magearna back in the start of the generation and always lamented how easy it was for opposing players to take out my magearna; it just gave too many switch-ins to other mons and was too easy to take advantage of. fleur cannon is decent and hits quite hard vs the right mons, but mag isn't outspeeding anything and usually takes too many damage first. sure, mag can check yveltal, xern, cm arc, etc, but even some of those can get past it quite easily. specs xern does like ~30%, so mag can't switch in consistently, yveltal can run heat wave or u-turn, etc. only cm arcs that are checked are fairy and dark, and most others can get past it easily (like ground, steel, ghost).

Arceus-Fairy to A-: neutral
on the fence about this. on the one hand, fairyceus invites in a ton of mons like celesteela, hooh, pdon, steelceus, ferro, and mega gengar and can't really do much to them. on the other hand, fairyceus is still one of the best checks to mray as well as yveltal and zygarde and is a pretty solid rocker/cm arc forme. poisonceus, pdon, and hooh getting better (especially poisonceus) makes me think it's time for fairyceus to drop, but being one of the better marshadow checks is very nice.

some things i'm confused about:
- why skarm was suddenly propelled so high? it still faces competition from celesteela, which checks most things a lot better. skarm has hazards, recovery, and phazing i guess, but what really changed in the meta for skarm's sudden rise? not objecting, just wondering not objecting
- similar to skarm, what's the reason for pdon rising? i'm assuming it has something to do with poisonceus and xern getting a lot more popular, but it does kinda get destroyed by groundceus, which is getting a lot better.

don't have any of my own noms today but i have been testing things out and might nom something in the near future. overall it's a pretty nice update but could still use some changes imo
 

Megazard

I'll show you the life of the mind!
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some things i'm confused about:
- why skarm was suddenly propelled so high? it still faces competition from celesteela, which checks most things a lot better. skarm has hazards, recovery, and phazing i guess, but what really changed in the meta for skarm's sudden rise? not objecting, just wondering not objecting
- similar to skarm, what's the reason for pdon rising? i'm assuming it has something to do with poisonceus and xern getting a lot more popular, but it does kinda get destroyed by groundceus, which is getting a lot better.
Skarm- could absolutely stand to go to B rank but I wouldn't go lower, while it might be the worst mon in B+ I'd also rate it higher than the entirety of B. Spikes are just ridiculously underrated at the moment, and Skarm adds a lot to relieving the pressure that Ray and Marshadow and Groundceus can put on teams that Ferro doesn't entirely accomplish.
Pdon- people are messing with the good offensive sets more that pressure Groundceus and it's still fairly easy to fit on teams. It's hard not to be generic about this one, but the prevalence of Groundceus alone isn't enough to keep Pdon down. Still probably the worst thing in A+, but again I think it's proved better atm than the rest of A.

Also I'd be totally against a Magearna rise, we just dropped it several sub-ranks for a reason. It's great at checking the mons it does (which isn't an amazing list tbh) but really hurts to have when facing like anything else. A lot of its stops can wear it down over the longer games that Magearna tends to invite whereas the weaknesses it does have are pretty hard to deal with (Groundceus, Pdon, like any decent physical attacker).
 
Grassceus is really underrated. Tbh it's one of the best leads in the game due to how it counters smeargle and can do more damage than other arceus forms with grass-knot. This also sounds like a mega meme but it can run roar of time to OHKO mega rayquaza (yeah, it sounds awful but somehow it got me to #2 in 2050s). Calm mind grassceus with flamethrower and/or ice beam is also p good, destroys ferrothorn and celesteela which are absolute AIDS. And plus it has arceus's superb bulk with base 120 stats across the board. Grass isn't really that bad of a type. People tend to think "oh, it's not that good because primal groudon and mega ray are both big threats to it," but it can still heavily damage both of them, as well as outspeed them (unless ray is scarfed). Steel types also aren't an issue for it if it has flamethrower. Honestly I just think that being the only arceus form with immunity to spore and leech seed combined with the other things that I mentioned make it deserving of a rise. Also to note, if you look at the "viability ceiling" of grassceus in the moveset statistics it is at 96, which is the highest viability ceiling for August along with some other pokemon. Comparatively, xerneas (which I'm personally not a fan of) is at a ceiling of 95 despite being ranked much higher on the viability rankings.
 

Pigeons

formerly Yuga42
Grassceus is really underrated. Tbh it's one of the best leads in the game due to how it counters smeargle and can do more damage than other arceus forms with grass-knot. This also sounds like a mega meme but it can run roar of time to OHKO mega rayquaza (yeah, it sounds awful but somehow it got me to #2 in 2050s). Calm mind grassceus with flamethrower and/or ice beam is also p good, destroys ferrothorn and celesteela which are absolute AIDS. And plus it has arceus's superb bulk with base 120 stats across the board. Grass isn't really that bad of a type. People tend to think "oh, it's not that good because primal groudon and mega ray are both big threats to it," but it can still heavily damage both of them, as well as outspeed them (unless ray is scarfed). Steel types also aren't an issue for it if it has flamethrower. Honestly I just think that being the only arceus form with immunity to spore and leech seed combined with the other things that I mentioned make it deserving of a rise. Also to note, if you look at the "viability ceiling" of grassceus in the moveset statistics it is at 96, which is the highest viability ceiling for August along with some other pokemon. Comparatively, xerneas (which I'm personally not a fan of) is at a ceiling of 95 despite being ranked much higher on the viability rankings.
I absolutely disagree with a Grassceus rise, I'll try and address everything you said though.

Firstly, Grassceus is currently ranked in B-, so if you're going to nom something up it would help if you gave us an idea of why Grassceus is better than Pokemon it shares a rank with such as Gothitelle and Magearna rather than giving an overview of what it does (most people are already aware of this).

I definitely wouldn't call it one of the best leads in the game. Lead Grassceus does have a nice Spore immunity for dealing with Smeargle, but vs most dedicated leads it has a rough time without Magic Coat. Magic Coat does give it the edge against leads like Smeargle, Shuckle and Deoxys-Speed but Spore immunity alone isn't enough to set it apart from other Magic Coat lead Arceus (Fairyceus for example). Losing to PDon and MRay in a lead situation isn't great either because these Pokemon are often used as leads as well.

Magic Coat also highlights another one of Grassceus's issues: 4MSS. I know that word gets thrown around a lot, often when it isn't justified, but in Grassceus's case it really holds true. Grass Knot is obviously required and you don't want to be dead weight against Rayquaza, meaning Ice Beam or a Dragon move is pretty much a necessity as well. That leaves 2 slots for Flamethrower / Fire Blast to do something vs Steels, Stone Edge to not be Ho-Oh bait, Recover to have some degree of longevity, Stealth Rock to have some kind of team support or Magic Coat to act as a lead. Whichever two you choose, Grassceus will have some matchups where it is severely lacking.

Immunity to Leech Seed is definitely one of Grassceus's biggest selling points, and Spore immunity is quite nifty too, but you aren't really mentioning the downinsides of its Grass typing. Even though it can threaten them to some degree, Ray, PDon, Ho-Oh, Yveltal are all common offensive mons that put a ton of pressure of Grassceus by virtue of typing alone. Grassceus fails to 1hko these threats (Roar of Time is seriously bad and I don't feel like discussing why) so unless they have some prior chip, Grassceus will always be losing momentum vs some of the most common Pokemon in the game, or simply dying. Whatever its purpose on a team is, getting trapped by MGar is a huge issue for Grassceus that again stems from its typing.

Just for clarification to others who don't know what "viability ceiling" is, it refers to a maximum GXE achieved on the ladder with a certain Pokemon. I don't think this is really a major factor to consider when ranking Pokemon given that it is more indicative of the preferences of skilled ladder players than the actual merits of Pokemon themselves. Ladder typically isn't the best judge of viability to begin with given the generally low quality of players there.

Grassceus definitely has some nifty aspects to it, shutting down Ferrothorn and Celesteela is quite nice given how much of a pain in the ass those mons can be, Grass typing also has some merits you didn't mention like resistance to Zygarde's Thousand Arrows and being an alright soft check to POgre. That aside, Grassceus has way too many flaws to rise from a rank that is very generous to begin with, especially when looking at how powerful some of the Pokemon in B are (see Chansey and Giratina).

TL;DR: Don't rise Grassceus

The fact that Chansey can ONLY belong on stall makes it extremely niche, in addition, it is outclassed by the likes of ferrothorn, xern, ho-oh, pdon, and pogre in terms of the roles it can fulfill on most teams, thus making it require massive team support in stall mons. Thus, I still stand by my nom that Chansey should get dropped.
I realize I never replied to this so here we go again. I think you're defining viability exclusively in terms of splashability which isn't really the whole picture. If you look at other Pokemon in B and higher, you'll notice Chansey isn't the only one largely restricted to one playstyle. Sableye is almost always found on stall or extremely bulky balance, Deoxys-Speed and Deoxys-Attack are exclusively found on hyper offense, etc. We can argue about the details of this analogy and but the fact remains these Pokemon are similar not terribly splashable but remain highly ranked regardless, so the amount of playstyles something fits on is clearly not the only factor in viability.

The point is, you also have to consider how well it performs its given role. We argued about team support already, but the Pokemon you listed as "outclassing it" don't outclass it in the slightest. Xern and POgre are offensive Pokemon with no similarity to Chansey so I have no idea why you brought them up, the others can perform marginally similar roles in checking some special attackers but the similarities end there. Ho-Oh is an offensive tank, Ferrothorn offers Stealth Rock and Leech Seed support, PDon also offers Stealth Rock support and greater offensive presence. Compared to these Pokemon, Chansey is a check to just about every special attacker in the metagame that can also provide cleric support, a massive boon on stall teams and some balances.

Chansey is practically mandatory on stall and an amazing edition to certain balances, requiring team support is a factor in viability for sure but you shouldn't overlook the huge amount of team support Chansey is able to offer in exchange. In my opinion, Chansey doesn't require a greater deal of team support than say, MMY or Giratina, this combined with Chansey's huge overall utility leads me to believe Chansey should stay B.

TL;DR Don't drop Chansey

Some other noms:

Yveltal A -> A-
Yveltal's been a lot harder to use nowadays, it just doesn't fit on teams like it used to and teams generally aren't that weak to it. Fairy-types are more common and typical bulky offense teambuilds that dominate the ladder aren't really bothered by it at all. It's still pretty good but just a lot harder to fit onto teams than fellow A-rank members like Zygarde and Celesteela and meta trends really don't favour it much. Could honestly drop farther but it seems like a decent fit with POgre and other A- mons.

Gothitelle B- -> B
I know it just rose but it seems like Goth just keeps getting better. The Charm + Confide + Taunt set that Thimo introduced has made Goth all the more annoying to face, as now it can trap stuff like Ferrothorn or Defensive Zygarde lacking DTail. The prevalence of balance is great for it, as against such teams Gothitelle is often able to get multiple kos and open massive holes in the opposing team. The previously mentioned Charm + Confide set doesn't just remove threats though, it can turn them into setup bait for just about any threatening sweeper after their offensive stats have been reduced to -6. Gothitelle really stands out in B- because no Pokemon there puts in the amount of work that it does while also having so little counterplay. Even though Gothitelle has issues against faster offensive teams, I think the massive pressure it puts on bulkier teams warrants a rise.
 
Pigeons, you're missing the fact that both primal groudon and rayquaza, which are both commonly used as leads, are weak to each other. Primal groudon gets killed by mega rayquaza leads, and also has the risk of being taken out by opposing pdon leads. Mega rayquaza leads are weak to other mega rayquaza leads, because you have to rely on speed ties and/or the amount of speed evs (or the item) that you have on your mega rayquaza, and switching out is risky due to how much damage mega rayquaza deals with dragon ascent (especially with band or life orb). To top that off mega rayquaza leads risk getting hit hard by dragon tail from pdon. Grassceus pretty much has the same exact lead issues that mega rayquaza and pdon have. It is threatened by pdon and mega rayquaza but it can threaten them at the same time. A lot of primal groudon leads use stealth rock before they attack, and grass knot 2hkos pdon, so in many cases opponents end up losing their pdon lead to grassceus. And this sounds ridiculous but grassceus can OHKO mega rayquaza leads with roar of time. The downside is that you have to recharge a turn, but it is worth it taking out mega rayquaza turn 1 (and the opponent will never ever expect that you are running roar of time). Only other problem with this is that in a bo3 roar of time grassceus can be countered easily. I just don't see why grassceus should be in the same tier as giratina-origin (which is complete garbage in all honesty). And the thing about magic coat on grassceus... lmao what? There is literally no point of using magic coat on grassceus when it 2hkos deoxys-speed anyway (and btw, deoxys-speed is way overhyped, tbh it's garbage, all it does is set up screens or hazards and then dies, leaving u with 5 mons against the opponent's 6, and then in comes the opponent's defogger to take away the tiny little thing that deoxys-speed accomplished), and if the opponent has a shuckle then just lead with a steel type instead of the grassceus lead. And the big thing that sets grassceus apart from magic coat fairyceus or other coat arceus leads is that fairyceus cannot switch in on a smeargle that is about to spore, but grassceus can. Also, a lot of smeargles run substitute which completely ruins magic coat in certain situations. You are definitely 100% correct about 4MSS though. Kicking grassceus up to B tier seems fine. Also gothitelle should DEFINITELY move up to B tier.
 
For starts I hope we can just take Darkrai off of D rank. I have seen a quite a few teams with it even in the 1700's (idk maybe I am just lucky to see so many). But I am getting tired of seeing this bad mon. It is bad because from the start all its had is a 60% chance working hypno and now with marshadow witch means more Xerneas its even worse now.

Also Gothitelle I do believe that it should go to B but not any higher. The fact that it is the only other shadow tag user aside from the mega gengar makes it have a niche that no other mon can have for not taking up a mega slot. And in general it really hurts a lot of those slower/balance teams.
 

Funbot28

Breaking hearts since '09
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Some noms:

A+ -> A
Although Marshadow isn't as prevalent in AG as it is in Ubers (I still feel people are sleeping on it though), Arceus still has taken a hit since Marsh emerged its presence on the metagame. Sub SD sets are still pretty effective, but the fact that it can get forced out by common threats such as Mega Gengar, Celesteela, Mega Sableye, and the aforementioned Marsh really hurts its viability a ton, preventing it from sweeping teams in most cases unless it chooses to forfeit either its item slot of moveslot to counteract the aforementioned checks with stuff like Chople Berry for Marsh or Fire Blast for Celest or Ferro. Bulky sets also now get outspeed by Mega Ray, meaning that it can't force the mindgames with Espeed like it once could on the 1v1 unless either its near max health or if Ray is incredibly weakened. All in all, Extreme Killer is not a bad mon by any means and still is one of the dominant faces of the AG meta, but I can't deny that recent meta trends haven't fallen in its favor enough to keep it at its same rank.

A -> A+
Yeh this thing never should have dropped. Both Power Herb and Z-Geo sets are still both threatening in their own rights and are even more menacing in AG compared to Ubers due to how less prepped teams are for them for some awkward reason. Lack of species clause also helps out Xerneas quite a bit, as teams running Dual Xern can often bluff between Scarf and setup (or even dual setup with Reg Geo and Z-Geo if you want to be cheeky), applying a lot of pressure on the opposing team. Speaking of Scarf, that set is still quite good and is a great pick on a majority of offensive teams in terms of checking threats like Marshadow, unboosted Ray, and Yveltal. Specs is also really good on webs since it can blow past the majority of walls once they get a little chip on them. The rise of Celesteela and PoisonCeus don't help it, but again coverage options could be run to circumvent its checks (especially good when considering Xern spam).

A -> A-
Zygod is fat but still loses to the majority of threats its supposed to check since they are starting to adapt to it with examples including Mixed Rayquaza (even Adamant DD can 2HKO at +1), HP Ice Primal Groudon, HP Ice Marshadow, and Ice Beam Ekiller. RestTalk sets are just too passive and give up too much momentum while Dragon Dance sets can just be pulled of better by Ray. SubCoil with Glare is still a neat set (especially paired with Goth which I will get to), but yeh Zygod just kinda lost its touch imo over time.

B- -> B+
This thing is actually stupid lol. It basically can almost always auto-win versus stall if played properly and with the new sets emerging (mainly the Thimo PP stall set), Goth is able to trap even more threats that it struggled with against before (think Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Lugia, etc...). The amount of support it can provide to practically any offensive threat is truly absurd and its actually quite splashable when thinking about how much it can pull off in one slot. Its deadweight versus any type of Hyper Offense, but besides that Gothitelle is one of the best stallbreakers in the metagame and a rise is surely due.

Replay to demonstrate (AG Seasonal R6): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-645514677

Disagree with a raise in Magearna and drop of Fairceus as well. Neutral on Yveltal.
 

Chloe

;w;
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Firstly, we've added Yuga42 aka Erotic Pigeons
to the Viability Council, welcome!!
Secondly, we've voted on nominations plus changing a few more inaccurate rankings.
Code:
Updates:
Xerneas A to A+
Gothitelle B- to B+
Arceus-Ghost A- to B+
Jirachi B- to C+
Blissey C+ to B-
Galvantula D to unranked
Nihilego D to unranked
Scizor D to unranked
Mewtwo-Mega-X B- to C+
Arceus-Poison A- to B+
Marshadow A- to A
Mewtwo-Mega-Y B to B-
Lucario-Mega C+ to C
Alomomola D to unranked
Pheromosa C- to D
Blaziken C- to D
Arceus-Dark B+ to B
Pyukumuku C to D
Magearna B- to B
Arceus-Flying D to C
Individual Votes:
Order of votes: Thimo | Chloe | Pigeons | Megazard | Verdict

Chansey B to C+ no no no no no
Shuckle B- to C+ no no no no no
Klefki C to D/UR no no yes nah no
Xerneas A to A+ yes sure yes yes yes, Xerneas to A+
Arceus-Fairy A to A- no no no no no
Yveltal A to A- no no yes no no
Gothitelle B- to B/B+/A- A- B+ B+ B+ yes, Gothitelle to B+
Arceus-Grass B- to B no no no no no
Arceus-Ghost A- to B+ yes yes yes yes yes, Arceus-Ghost to B+
Deoxys-Speed B to B+yes no no no no
Jirachi B- to C+ yes yes yes yeah yes, Jirachi to C+
Smeargle B- to B+yes no no no, b wouldnt be nuts but not b+ no
Blissey C+ to B- yes sure no yes yes, Blissey to B-
Galvantula D to unranked yes yes yes LOL YES TY yes, Galvantula to Unranked
Nihilego D to unranked yes yes yes yes :[ yes, Nihilego to Unranked
Scizor D to unranked yes yes yes YESYESYES yes, Scizor to Unranked
Mewtwo-Mega-X B- to C+ yes yes yes yes yes, Mewtwo-Mega-X to C+
Arceus-Poison A- to B+ yes yes yes no yes, Arceus-Poison to B+
Marshadow A- to A yes no yes yes yes, Marshadow to A
Ferrothorn A- to B+ no yes no no no
Mewtwo-Mega-Y B to B- yes yes yes no yes, Mewtwo-Mega-Y to B-
Lucario-Mega C+ to C yes yes yes yes yes, Lucario-Mega to C
Alomomola D to unranked yes yes yes yes yes, Alomomola to Unranked
Pheromosa C- to D yes yes yes no yes, Pheromosa to D
Blaziken C- to D yes yes yes yes yes, Blaziken to D
Arceus-Dark B+ to B- no B B B is reasonable but fine with leaving in B+- drop to B compromise, Arceus-Dark to B
Skarmory B+ to B no no yes either way too- does not drop no
Pyukumuku C to D no yes yes c- maybe but ok- goes to D yes, Pyukumuku to D
Magearna B- to B/B+ B+ B B- B- aka dont move- goes to B yes, Magearna to B
Wobbuffet C to C- no yes yes no- does not drop no
Arceus-Flying D to C+/B- B- C like C maybe?C+ is fine, still new/niche- starts in C for now compromise, Arceus-Flying at C for time being.
Sableye-Mega B+ to A- yes no yes no more discussion needed
Arceus-Water A- to B+ no yes yes no more discussion needed
Arceus A+ to A no yes yes no more discussion needed
Deoxys-Attack B+ to B no yes yes no more discussion needed
Some discussion points:
Mega Sableye B+ to A-?
Arceus-Water A- to B+?
Arceus A+ to A?
Deoxys-Attack B+ to B?
Arceus Flying C to somewhere higher?
 
Unranked -> D
Dragonite is as of yet unranked within the anything goes tier and I am nominating it to D rank, Dragonite serves 2 main roles which make use of its two most distinguishing aspects when compared to other similar dragon type setup sweepers, its fantastic ability multiscale and what is technically the most powerful move in the game, Horndrill.
Dragonites ability multiscale halves incoming damage when it is on full health, giving it incredible initial bulk, allowing it a free dragon dance in front of otherwise devastating offensive threats such as Kyogre-primal and Mega-Rayquaza, comfortably surviving a +1 dragon ascent from the Anything Goes flagship pokemon.
+1 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 216-254 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 252-298 (78 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 153-180 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO

With this initial bulk Dragonite acts as an excellent check to the multitude of relatively frail offensive sweepers within the metagame as well as taking advantage of this turn to set up its dragon dance technique.

The Lure
Dragonite @ Steelium Z
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Iron Head

Dragonite has a wide level of coverage and with generation 7 introducing Z moves Dragonite can muscle its way through many of the support arceus forms that previously stopped it in its tracks and are unsuspecting of this relatively weak OU tier pokemon. With a near guaranteed setup turn Dragonite can use dragon dance to boost its attack and speed and can effectively sweep an unsuspecting team with few defensive checks remaining. Dragonites steelium-Z at +1 ohko's max HP, max Def with ease, eliminating one of its most common defensive checks and paving the way for teammates such as Marshadow and Mega-Rayquaza.
Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-647413359

The Driller
Dragonite @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Horn Drill
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Toxic

The use and abuse of the OHKO move is largely ignored within the Anything Goes meta, to which this strategy is limited to, and despite this can and will allow me and others who use this strategy to win games that they had absolutely no business winning. With a 30% chance to hit Horndrill allows Dragonite the ability, with a small amount of luck, to turn a game around in a matter of turns. Dragonites multiscale ability is well used in this allowing an almost guaranteed 2 chances to hit this devastating attack. Now many of you will be skeptical of using this due to the perceived low probability of the move actually connecting however with some math you can see the true potential of this attack. Let us say that this particular Dragonite is given the opportunity to hit 2 of its Horn Drills due to its choice scarf and multiscale ability, there are 3 outcomes in this situation, the dragonite hits both drills, hits one drill, or misses both, well the odds are spread as following; To miss both drills is at a probability of 0.49, to hit one out of the two is 0.42 and the chance to eliminate one third of the opposing team is 0.09. To put this into scale Dragonite has a near identical chance of missing a draco meteor as it does eliminating one third of the opposing team when using horn drill and has a 51% chance to hit at least one of its horn drills. Furthermore this set allows the relatively bulky dragonite to outspeed the vast majority of the metagame, allowing it to scare out the likes of marshadow, Mega-Rayquaza, Mega-Gengar and can often 2hko neutrally typed arceus forms without the use of HornDrill but with moves such as outrage and earthquake. Below is a replay which shows how even a champion of the meta can always be overcome by a hefty bit of luck.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-552670324

Weaknesses:
Yes, Dragonite has weaknesses, many of them. a list of these include stealth rocks, anything with Ice beam, thunderwave or will-o-wisp, various steel types such as celesteela, skarmory and arceus-steel and much much more. Dragonite requires a fair amount of team support from defoggers, checks to its many weaknesses and is not splashable on every team. Furthermore many parallels can be drawn to Mega-Rayquaza, which has identical typing, far superior stats and a similarly damage reducing ability to Dragonite and is for all intents and purposes superior to Dragonite except for lacking access to an OHKO move.

Thanks for reading this and hopefully you will consider my favourite pokemon for the D rank within the AG meta's viability rankings.


 
Unranked -> D
Dragonite is as of yet unranked within the anything goes tier and I am nominating it to D rank, Dragonite serves 2 main roles which make use of its two most distinguishing aspects when compared to other similar dragon type setup sweepers, its fantastic ability multiscale and what is technically the most powerful move in the game, Horndrill.
Dragonites ability multiscale halves incoming damage when it is on full health, giving it incredible initial bulk, allowing it a free dragon dance in front of otherwise devastating offensive threats such as Kyogre-primal and Mega-Rayquaza, comfortably surviving a +1 dragon ascent from the Anything Goes flagship pokemon.
+1 252+ Atk Rayquaza-Mega Dragon Ascent vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 216-254 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 252-298 (78 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 153-180 (47.3 - 55.7%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO

With this initial bulk Dragonite acts as an excellent check to the multitude of relatively frail offensive sweepers within the metagame as well as taking advantage of this turn to set up its dragon dance technique.

The Lure
Dragonite @ Steelium Z
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Iron Head

Dragonite has a wide level of coverage and with generation 7 introducing Z moves Dragonite can muscle its way through many of the support arceus forms that previously stopped it in its tracks and are unsuspecting of this relatively weak OU tier pokemon. With a near guaranteed setup turn Dragonite can use dragon dance to boost its attack and speed and can effectively sweep an unsuspecting team with few defensive checks remaining. Dragonites steelium-Z at +1 ohko's max HP, max Def with ease, eliminating one of its most common defensive checks and paving the way for teammates such as Marshadow and Mega-Rayquaza.
Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-647413359

The Driller
Dragonite @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Horn Drill
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Toxic

The use and abuse of the OHKO move is largely ignored within the Anything Goes meta, to which this strategy is limited to, and despite this can and will allow me and others who use this strategy to win games that they had absolutely no business winning. With a 30% chance to hit Horndrill allows Dragonite the ability, with a small amount of luck, to turn a game around in a matter of turns. Dragonites multiscale ability is well used in this allowing an almost guaranteed 2 chances to hit this devastating attack. Now many of you will be skeptical of using this due to the perceived low probability of the move actually connecting however with some math you can see the true potential of this attack. Let us say that this particular Dragonite is given the opportunity to hit 2 of its Horn Drills due to its choice scarf and multiscale ability, there are 3 outcomes in this situation, the dragonite hits both drills, hits one drill, or misses both, well the odds are spread as following; To miss both drills is at a probability of 0.49, to hit one out of the two is 0.42 and the chance to eliminate one third of the opposing team is 0.09. To put this into scale Dragonite has a near identical chance of missing a draco meteor as it does eliminating one third of the opposing team when using horn drill and has a 51% chance to hit at least one of its horn drills. Furthermore this set allows the relatively bulky dragonite to outspeed the vast majority of the metagame, allowing it to scare out the likes of marshadow, Mega-Rayquaza, Mega-Gengar and can often 2hko neutrally typed arceus forms without the use of HornDrill but with moves such as outrage and earthquake. Below is a replay which shows how even a champion of the meta can always be overcome by a hefty bit of luck.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-552670324

Weaknesses:
Yes, Dragonite has weaknesses, many of them. a list of these include stealth rocks, anything with Ice beam, thunderwave or will-o-wisp, various steel types such as celesteela, skarmory and arceus-steel and much much more. Dragonite requires a fair amount of team support from defoggers, checks to its many weaknesses and is not splashable on every team. Furthermore many parallels can be drawn to Mega-Rayquaza, which has identical typing, far superior stats and a similarly damage reducing ability to Dragonite and is for all intents and purposes superior to Dragonite except for lacking access to an OHKO move.

Thanks for reading this and hopefully you will consider my favourite pokemon for the D rank within the AG meta's viability rankings.
I don't agree with this. We might as well put mew in there cause it gets horn drill as well as recovery + better typing for ag. I'm not gonna consider its dd set cause its pointless to run especially when u have mons like mray, zygarde and salamence around who are much much much much better. Since those 3 are more relevant, it doesn't matter what dnite does :I u might as well nominate hippo cause it does almost the same as support groundceus but it's more shit. At this point, ur only arguement would be that dnite is capable of performing both as a horn drill tank or a shittier version of mray/zygarde, which makes it a little bit unpredictable. Idt that reason is good enuf for D
 

Pigeons

formerly Yuga42
Well on a note that isn't about shitmons (I think I speak for the council when I say Dragonite is not getting ranked), here are my thoughts on the discussion points.

Discussion Points:

Mega Sableye B+ to A-


I do think Sableye should rise. I know the timing for this is slightly awkward, bumping a stall Pokemon up in rank when Gothitelle is becoming as prominent as it is does seem odd so I'll elaborate. Firstly, even with the increase in Gothitelle usage, stall is far from dead. Stall doesn't appreciate the rise of Gothitelle at all, but things like BlackGlasses Tyranitar to allow stall to beat it. Stall is also ridiculously underprepped for at the moment, giving Sableye an edge in many matchups. Individually it's extremely good against multiple playstyles. Against offense it shuts down most suicide leads while checking Marshadow, EKiller and Deoxys-A nicely. Sableye isn't restricted to stall either, paired with a strong breaker it can form an effective base for a balance team. Sableye + Primal Kyogre is particularly notable in my eyes as Sableye's Magic Bounce block Ferrothorn's ability to use Leech Seed and recover HP, making it much easier to wear down. Sableye just has a lot going for it right now individually and I think its rank should rise to reflect that.

Arceus-Water A- to B+

I made this nom so I support it obviously, won't really elaborate since I already did that before. tl;dr Toxic /Goth meta makes it harder to use and it has a hard time checking multiple things at once.

Arceus A+ to A

Nah. Arceus definitely got worse with Marshadow's introduction, nobody's arguing with that, but I think the degree to which Arceus was affected is exaggerated. Sets like Chople and Substitute make Marsh an unreliable check, and this comes at great risk to the Marshadow user as they have no way of knowing whether or not it's safe to use Close Combat. EKiller is definitely offense's best option to not lose to fast setup sweepers like DD Rayquaza, something Marshadow can't quite match as a revenge killer. Arceus simply provides too much for offensive teams to drop, especially when offense is becoming one of the better playstyles at the moment.

Deoxys-Attack B+ to B

Not super strongly opinionated on this. I've never liked Deospam personally but it does feel a bit better than the stuff in B. I'd be interested to hear arguments from people who have used this more.

Arceus-Flying C to Somewhere higher

Never used this Pokemon so no opinion. On paper it's pretty cool as a CM + Refresh Arceus form that beats Marshadow so not opposed to putting it higher, I don't think it should go higher than B- though.

Also:

Lunala B+ to B

Lunala is alright but right now is facing a lot of competition. Offensive sets have to compete with Marshadow, defensive sets (which I don't think are great) have competition from Giratina. Ghost / Fighting coverage is a lot more prepared for at the moment thanks to Marshadow which greatly limits Lunala's effectiveness against bulkier builds. Getting bopped by Marshadow's Shadow Sneak isn't great either because it reduces Lunala's effectiveness against offensive teams when using Scarf or Z-Hypnosis. I've never found Lunala particularly great but given the current meta I think it's time for it to drop.
 
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Mega Sableye B+ to A-


I do think Sableye should rise. I know the timing for this is slightly awkward, bumping a stall Pokemon up in rank when Gothitelle is becoming as prominent as it is does seem odd so I'll elaborate. Firstly, even with the increase in Gothitelle usage, stall is far from dead. Stall doesn't appreciate the rise of Gothitelle at all, but things like BlackGlasses Tyranitar to allow stall to beat it. Stall is also ridiculously underprepped for at the moment, giving Sableye an edge in many matchups. Individually it's extremely good against multiple playstyles. Against offense it shuts down most suicide leads while checking Marshadow, EKiller and Deoxys-A nicely. Sableye isn't restricted to stall either, paired with a strong breaker it can form an effective base for a balance team. Sableye + Primal Kyogre is particularly notable in my eyes as Sableye's Magic Bounce block Ferrothorn's ability to use Leech Seed and recover HP, making it much easier to wear down. Sableye just has a lot going for it right now individually and I think its rank should rise to reflect that.
I never post in AG threads because people there hate me

Regarding Mega Sableye, I think I need some explanation to understand this. Arceus-Fairy is on nearly every team because of the prevalence of Marshadow led to it being one of the reliable answers while checking stuff like Mega Rayquaza and others. Also, there are plenty of threats that can force out Sableye and spread status as far as I can say from my experience. Primal Groudon basically beats Sableye one on one and Primal Kyogre (Sableye's partner, according to what you said) can't switch into Ground moves. Ho-oh can spam Sacred Fire on Sableye's face and eventually induce burn, halving Foul Play's damage and leaving it very passive against Ho-oh for the rest of the match. Of course, aforementioned two Pokemon despise switching into Toxic.

Also I'm not sure if Mega Sableye "checks" Marshadow when

+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 286-337 (94 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

... happens. I rarely see Life Orb variants because it is p much deadweigh against most Arceus formes.
 
Maybe Marsh should be A+ rank? i have been using a swagger set, and while very popular when Marsh first came out, it has died down. I find it extremely useful not for boosts, but for forcing switch outs, which are easy to read. The mon is so unpredictable when it comes to its last move slot, that i think it should be higher.
 
Now for what I really wanted to talk about. Nominating Solrock from unranked to D rank.
Solrock a few different niches making it usable. Being a rock type allows it to tank hits from mega rayquaza and other flying type attacks (like fly arc and yvental) Also it has levitate so its immune to all ground moves and so this helps it set up Stealth rocks vs primal groundon. It has rock tomb so it can slow everything down and then either I out speed with another mon or they have to switch out. It also has decent recovery in morning sun and so it can stall out or at lest where down some threats with toxic. Still it has poor stats (especially speed like even rocktomb sometimes don't make it out speed) and takes 2x damage from ghost type moves due to being a psychic type. So it probably has no hope of being C-. But I do feel it would be reasonable as a D rank mon.
 
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I would definitely support the idea of getting solrock ranked. I have used it on different teams and it works rather well with Arceus-Poison being a good switchin for ground moves from mons such as Arceus-Ground, Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquazas that doesnt run draco/surf/waterfall. Maybe its just my personal bias of really enjoying Arceus-Poison right now but kinda covering Arceus-Ground, Pdon and some Rays (Ho-Oh too) at the same time should be worth getting ranked.
 
Okay

I would definitely support the idea of getting solrock ranked. I have used it on different teams and it works rather well with Arceus-Poison being a good switchin for ground moves from mons such as Arceus-Ground, Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquazas that doesnt run draco/surf/waterfall. Maybe its just my personal bias of really enjoying Arceus-Poison right now but kinda covering Arceus-Ground, Pdon and some Rays (Ho-Oh too) at the same time should be worth getting ranked.
Now for what I really wanted to talk about. Nominating Solrock from unranked to D rank. Solrock has a few different niches making it usable. Being a rock type allows it to tank hits from mega rayquaza and other flying type attacks (like fly arc and yvental) Also it has levitate so its immune to all ground moves and so this helps it set up Stealth rocks vs primal groundon. It has rock tomb so it can slow everything down and then either I out speed with another mon or they have to switch out. It also has decent recovery in morning sun and so it can stall out or at lest where down some threats with toxic. Still it has poor stats (especially speed like even rocktomb sometimes don't make it out speed) and takes 2x damage from ghost type moves due to being a psychic type. So it probably has no hope of being C-. But I do feel it would be reasonable as a D rank mon.
I fully agree with you, because solrock is actually quite bulky. It can tank dascent and vcreate easily, but it is threatened by waterfall and dmeteor, which prevent it from being higher than D. It also kinda covers pdon and Ho-Oh, which is useful. Also, Solrock can work well with Poisonceus, as stated above. It also works great with steelceus, which can bait the fire/ground moves. One big issue with Solrock is its weakness to water, which lets pogre and waterfall mray hit it really hard. Overall, however, Solrock is definitely worthy of D rank, possibly C-, but I am not holding my breath. Anyway, on to the main body of my post.

Zekrom: C+ -> C-
Zekrom does have its niches (as a powerul physical attacker with electric STAB, which virtually no other viable mons have). Also, Zekrom counters Pogre quite effectively, provided that you run max speed on it. In order to outspeed Pogre, however, you need to reduce your attack by running a jolly nature. Also, Zekrom has very little coverage against its key weakness, ground. Pdon with pblades simply goes to town against Zekrom, which has no useful ways to return fire. Zekrom faces a similar problem vs Arceus Ground, which will likely outspeed (provided you did your evs right), and then get an ohko with judgment. Zekrom is simply not viable in the AG, due to its crippling ground weakness. With air balloon, it has some potential, but Pdon still beats it, because Zekrom simply has no way to do any significant amount of damage to it. The only reason that I am not nominating Zekrom to unranked is the useful niche against Pogre, and the potential vs Flyingceus or, if used right, the ability to get an outrage off against Mray. However, this relies on the Mray having a choice item and being locked into a move such as dragon ascent or waterfall, rendering this scenario rather unlikely. Choice Scarf Zekrom could be quite effective against Pogre, hitting with an adamant Bolt Strike, but being locked into an electric type move makes it easy to defeat with Pdon or Groundceus. Choice Band Zekrom could also hit very hard against pogre, but would be almost required to run jolly in order to outspeed Pogre. Again, the choice item would cripple Zekrom, rendering it setup bait for something like Rock Polish Pdon, which gets a free turn to setup because Zekrom has to switch out.

Blaziken: D -> Unranked
Blaziken is just weak in general. It has a potential niche as a baton passer, but it is easily defeated by Groundceus. Blaziken's weak defensive typing means that many common threats, such as Pdon, Pogre, and Mray can go ham on it. Also, the lack of coverage in Blaziken's movepool means that it has virtually nothing that can hit Mray hard, allowing a Dascent to crush it. Pogre is a little easier to beat, using High Jump Kick, but still, if one Origin Pulse hits, Blazi is steamrolled. Also, defensive Ground-Arceus can hit really hard against it with near impunity. It has insufficient firepower to be of much use against many common threats. Also, Blaziken is outclassed in its most useful role as a baton passer. Scolipede is a far better speed boost mon for BP, due to its higher base speed and better defensive movepool, which includes iron defense. In all, Blaziken is simply too weak to be any good in the AG metagame, and would be better suited for use in ubers.
 
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I would definitely support the idea of getting solrock ranked. I have used it on different teams and it works rather well with Arceus-Poison being a good switchin for ground moves from mons such as Arceus-Ground, Primal Groudon and Mega Rayquazas that doesnt run draco/surf/waterfall. Maybe its just my personal bias of really enjoying Arceus-Poison right now but kinda covering Arceus-Ground, Pdon and some Rays (Ho-Oh too) at the same time should be worth getting ranked.
Like Lugia can fulfill its roll in a similar way but doesnt get stealth rocks and it is weak to rocks making it not be able to switch into banded ray if rocks are up. Still niche nevertheless but worth of d rank.
 
Well i guess Arceus-normal should be dropped cuz in current meta most of its sets are not that good,salac/chople are not that effective as it lacks damage and it can be taken out easily with mray with band or LO secondly chople just to take CC from marsh is not a good way to go imo so i just don't like that one :P next defensive sets this type of set can be taken out with pogre or any other heavy Spa attacker Go steelceus.Well it can still be used in late game too but still it just end up occupying a slot where you can add better sweepers which are good in current meta.
 
Well i guess Arceus-normal should be dropped cuz in current meta most of its sets are not that good,salac/chople are not that effective as it lacks damage and it can be taken out easily with mray with band or LO secondly chople just to take CC from marsh is not a good way to go imo so i just don't like that one :P next defensive sets this type of set can be taken out with pogre or any other heavy Spa attacker Go steelceus.Well it can still be used in late game too but still it just end up occupying a slot where you can add better sweepers which are good in current meta.
Well i agree with what you said but just how far down are we talking cuz I can see A or maybe A-. But if we are talking for Arc way down in B nah it still has enough power to stay in A.
 
Well i guess Arceus-normal should be dropped cuz in current meta most of its sets are not that good,salac/chople are not that effective as it lacks damage and it can be taken out easily with mray with band or LO secondly chople just to take CC from marsh is not a good way to go imo so i just don't like that one :P next defensive sets this type of set can be taken out with pogre or any other heavy Spa attacker Go steelceus.Well it can still be used in late game too but still it just end up occupying a slot where you can add better sweepers which are good in current meta.

Normalceus should definitely be dropped, due to its weakness to cc marsh. Due to marshadow's immunity to espeed, ekiller must rely on shadow claw to deal effective damage, but because it is outsped by marshadow, Ekiller gets pulverized with cc before shadow claw can hit. Even with chople berry, arceus is still steamrolled by sub marshadow. In a non-marsh meta, Ekiller could be a lot better, but marsh really blunts its effectiveness, prompting me (and a bunch of other people) to nominate it to A-.
Edit: Ekiller is also beaten by supprtceus walls, which have the bulk to survive a +2 espeed, before using... roar? To force you to switch out. I am still unclear on what else support arceus can do to beat ekiller, but Celesteela is possibly the best ekiller counter out there. It is virtually impossible to hit super effectively against with ekiller, and can protect/substitute stall after a couple of flame charges, rendering ekiller useless while it is stalled out with leech seed.
 
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