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Ubers Arceus-Electric

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by Cobalt314, Jan 5, 2014.

  1. Cobalt314

    Cobalt314

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    Status: DONE!
    [​IMG]
    "The time has come...humanity will be brought to justice!" -Arceus, M12
    Stats: 120 HP / 120 Atk / 120 Def / 120 SAtk / 120 SDef / 120 Spd
    Abilities: Multitype (Changes the Pokémon's type to match the plate it holds)

    Overview
    ########
    Rising high above the Earth, the Supreme Creator emerges onto the battlefield, this time wielding the power of the mighty electron. Dare not incur His wrath, as a Judgment coming off of a 508 Special Attack after a Calm Mind boost is not something one should mess with. With a new metagame dominated by new threats, the God of Lightning is able to check many of them, including Ho-Oh, Yveltal, and Kyogre. Not even paralysis can stop Him from bringing His electrifying justice. However, with the loss of permanent weather, He cannot sling around Thunder like He used to. Also, with lackluster defensive typing, He cannot easily switch into many attacks. Nevertheless, Electric Arceus is still a big threat, and should always be prepared for when building a team.

    Calm Mind
    ########
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Judgment / Thunderbolt
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Recover
    item: Zap Plate
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Timid / Modest

    Moves
    ========
    Calm Mind Electric Arceus is a powerful force that must not be underestimated, as after a Calm Mind boost Electric Arceus puts a major dent into any Pokémon without a resistance to Electric-type moves. Judgment is Electric Arceus's preferred STAB move, as it has a solid 100 Base Power. When boosted by STAB, Zap Plate, and possible Calm Mind boosts, Judgment can rip through many Pokémon in the tier. Thunderbolt is another option, as it has eight additional PP and a 10% chance to paralyze its target. However, compared to Judgment, Thunderbolt has ten less Base Power this generation, and this difference is quite noticeable:

    +1 252 SpA Zap Plate Judgment vs. 252/4+ Kyogre: 93.5 - 110.3% — 62.5% chance to OHKO
    +1 252 SpA Zap Plate Thunderbolt vs. 252/4+ Kyogre: 83.6 - 99.5% — guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Ice Beam provides BoltBeam coverage, which is resisted by very few Pokémon in Ubers. Recover is in the final moveslot so that Electric Arceus can prolong His lifespan, to assist in setup or allow Him to maintain a sweep.
    Substitute can be used instead of Recover to block Arceus from status conditions like Bad Poison and Burn, but He loses out on much-needed recovery.

    Set Details
    ========
    The given EVs maximize Electric Arceus's power and Speed and allow Him to 2HKO Groudon with Ice Beam. A Timid nature is recommended, as it allows Electric Arceus to Speed tie with other max Speed Arceus types. If better bulk and a reliable switch-in to Palkia is preferred, Electric Arceus can opt for a spread of 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe. For both power and bulk, 160 EVs can be siphoned from Speed and deposited into HP, as 96 Speed EVs are enough for Electric Arceus to outspeed fully invested base 100s.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    This set has a seemingly simple strategy (set up and sweep), but there are a few guidelines to follow in order to effectively utilize Electric Arceus. It's best to start by attacking directly with Electric Arceus, and only use Calm Mind if the opponent's Pokémon is weakened and unable to KO Electric Arceus before He does the same. For example, when facing Groudon, premature boosting is futile as one Earthquake can be all it takes to KO Electric Arceus, so it's best to throw out Ice Beam. Recover should only be used when needed, or when predicting a switch against something like Palkia.

    Team Options
    ========
    Electric Arceus has a singular weakness to Ground-type moves, so Pokémon that can take advantage of this, such as Kyogre and Yveltal, along with checks to Ground-types, such as Landorus-T and Giratina-O, are useful teammates. Mixed Rayquaza is a good partner too, as it is immune to Ground-type attacks and can handle many of Electric Arceus's common checks. Lastly, Mega Gengar is useful for trapping and eliminating many of Electric Arceus's checks and counters, most notably Chansey, Blissey, and weakened Excadrill. Most non-Ground-type teammates appreciate Electric Arceus's immunity to Thunder Wave, making Him a useful teammate to them as well.


    Other Options
    ########
    Electric Arceus has access to a few other viable moves that He can utilize. Thunder can be used over Judgment for more power, but the nerf to weather makes the move unreliable. Focus Blast can be used to deal with a few checks, such as Dialga, Tyranitar, Excadrill, and Ferrothorn, but it is just as unreliable as Thunder is. Electric Arceus can attempt to run a support set, but His lackluster defensive typing, which provides Him with resistances to only Electric-, Flying-, and Steel-type attacks, makes Him less viable for such a role, and another Arceus type should be run if a support set is required. It is, however, the only Arceus able to switch into Yveltal in a pinch while simultaneously being a great Palkia check.

    Checks & Counters
    ########
    **Bulky Ground-types**: Bulky Ground-types that can switch in on Judgment and take an Ice Beam easily serve as excellent checks, as they can either set up or retaliate with Earthquake. Examples include Excadrill, Quagsire, Ground Arceus, Groudon, and Gastrodon.

    **Ferrothorn**: Ferrothorn can easily tank Electric Arceus's common moves, damage Him with Toxic or Leech Seed, and set entry hazards.

    **Bulky Fairy-types**: Clefable, Xerneas, and Sylveon are all bulky Fairy-types that cannot be immediately one-hit knocked out, provide some sort of support through Wish or Aromatherapy, and can poison Electric Arceus with Toxic. Furthermore, Xerneas can even phaze out Electric Arceus with Roar.

    **Blissey**: Blissey, with her high HP and Special Defense stats, can easily take all of Electric Arceus's moves and stall Him out with a combination of Toxic and Soft-Boiled.

    **Dialga**: Dialga can take both Judgment and Ice Beam fairly easily and either retaliate with Toxic or phaze Him out with Roar or Dragon Tail.

    **Mega Tyranitar**: With its high Special Defense, which is further boosted by the sand it summons, Mega Tyranitar can wall Electric Arceus without the rare Focus Blast.

    **Giratina**: Giratina has a high HP stat and above average defenses, meaning that it can tank any move from Electric Arceus with relative ease, even a boosted Ice Beam, and phaze Him out.

    **Abomasnow**: Abomasnow and Mega Abomasnow resist Judgment, takes little from Ice Beam, and can fight back with Leech Seed and Wood Hammer.

    **Mega Charizard X**: It's not a good idea to switch Mega Charizard X in on a boosted attack, but if it manages to nab a Dragon Dance, it has a high chance to KO Electric Arceus with a +1 Tough Claws-boosted Flare Blitz. It can also heal off damage with Roost.

    **Lugia**: Lugia is a prominent threat, capable of crippling Electric Arceus with Toxic before phazing Him out with Whirlwind or Dragon Tail. However, it takes decent damage from Judgment.

    **Toxic**: Electric Arceus hates Toxic, as He will steadily lose HP and will eventually lose more that He can Recover back. Unfortunately, many Pokémon run Toxic as a filler move, meaning that Electric Arceus must be used carefully.

    **Sticky Web**: Sticky Web isn't a common entry hazard, but it can slow Electric Arceus down and render Him vulnerable to faster sweepers.
    Last edited: May 5, 2014
  2. Piexplode

    Piexplode Banned deucer.

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    With the rain nerf surely thunder is always a sub-optimal choice? Or does it achieve any notable KOs at +0/+1?
  3. Cobalt314

    Cobalt314

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    So far, it only slightly increases damage output. However, it does increase the chances of a OHKO on certain Pokémon. I'll post a few damage calcs here, let me know if you're looking for specific 'mons (NOTE: these are all off of a Modest nature).

    +1 252+ SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Judgment vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 261-307 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252+ SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 286-337 (64.4 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +1 252+ SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre: 348-410 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    +1 252+ SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre: 380-450 (94 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

    +1 252+ SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Judgment vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 261-307 (81 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252+ SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Thunder vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 288-339 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
  4. Jimmyftw

    Jimmyftw

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    I'll stick with Judgment. I don't like thunder as a main stab move with the rain neft. Maybe mention it in OO?
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  5. Cobalt314

    Cobalt314

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    Alright, I'll put it there. Could thunderbolt be a viable alternative? And, on another note, could a support set be a viable main set, or should that be under other options as well?
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2014
  6. Melee Mewtwo

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    Don't bother with Thunder, by the time you get Elect in and have a boost under your belt the weather will clear up and you'll have a shaky stab. Just have Judgment and Tbolt slashed together, not sure which should get first slash with the tbolt power nerf so you'll have to look for key calcs. If Judgment doesn't beat anything important having that 10% para chance and extra PP is helpful.
  7. Cobalt314

    Cobalt314

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    I compared Judgment and TBolt, and Judgment usually only increases the chances of a OHKO or a 2HKO. But in some cases, it turns a 3HKO into a 2HKO chance, or a 2HKO into a OHKO chance. Would that make Judgment in the first slash?
  8. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
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    Don't bother with Thunderbolt either. 10 BP is actually big; 10% paralyze isn't worth it. It misses the 2HKO on bulky Arceus, Heatran, Bronzong, you have no shot of 2HKOing Scarf Kyogre switch in with Stealth Rock whereas Judgment has 62.5% to do it, same case with SpD Kyogre only that +1 Judgment only has 37.5% to OHKO, +1 Judgment has 50% (!!!) to OHKO 248/0 Ho-Oh, and pretty much the power difference this meta has gotten quite notable. 10% paralyze <<< 10 BP. Move to AC if you're desperate for a para.
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  9. Piexplode

    Piexplode Banned deucer.

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    Well, it only resists flying/steel/electric so it's not really a fantastic check to anything particularly that another form of arceus might do better, so I think CM is all it wants.
  10. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    You're gonna need a mention of alternative EV Spreads. 184 Speed with Timid allows you to beat Mega Gengar before and during it's transformation, meaning you have 72 EVs to use for something else.
    92 Speed with Timid lets you beat max Speed base 100s, notably Palkia, leaving you with 160 EVs to dump somewhere else.
  11. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Change its EVs to 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 SAtk and remove the mention of Modest. This is typically the Calm Mind Arceus spread since it allows them to switch in and set up more easily (this spread checks Palkia quite well, for example). The fully offensive spread should be mentioned in Set Details for additional power.

    Definitely don't bother with other sets. For a Support Arceus its typing is pretty awkward since it lacks good resistances and its STAB has an immunity, more or less forcing it to use coverage. It could be mentioned in OO, but not as a set. A Swords Dance set is out of the question without physical STAB.
  12. Hack

    Hack formerly Hack He Must
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    I disagree Blue J, we will have to discuss this. IMO Arceus-Electric is better off as an offensive Calm Minder, and 252 satk should be the main spread- it helps to get past a lot checks like Groudon and Aegilslash. This is simply because Electric is a bad defensive typing, anyway other QC should chime in on this.
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  13. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
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    You missed that it T-bolt also gives 8 extra PP, which MAY come in useful
  14. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    Judgment's 10 extra BP is always helpful though, whereas TBolt's extra 8 PP and 10% para chance is only situationally useful.

    Garchomp has to be scarfed to check Arceus-Electric, make sure you mention that.
  15. sammao

    sammao

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    Thick Fat Mamoswine please. It is actually a lot more viable in Uber unlike the other once you mentioned here. I guess you can mention Shedinja as well but of course that sucks.

    Edit: Add Mamo to Check and Counter pls
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  16. Sweep

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    252 SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre: 188-224 (46.5 - 55.4%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre: 212-252 (52.4 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    I agree with Furai. Please slash Judgment before Thunderbolt, as the power difference is absolutely notable and a 10% paralysis rate is really low. Thunder can get a mention in Other Options but not in the main set IMO, too reliant on temporary Rain support.

    Earthquake from Ground Arceus and support Groudon do not OHKO Electric Arceus at full health, so edit the following:
    • Groudon and Quakeus can switch in on a Judgment, take an Ice Beam, and retaliate with a fatal Earthquake
    Bulky Excadrill and the blobs are actually much better checks than Groudon or Arceus Ground since they are not Ice Beam weak, so I'd move them up your checks & counters list. On that note, add Mega Gengar to Team Options to remove some of Electric Arceus's checks, like Chansey and somewhat weakened Excadrill.
  17. Fireburn

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    That would probably be fine, so long as you keep them in this order: Excadrill, Ground Arceus, Groudon, Scarf Garchomp (most effective to least effective). Do not mention Gliscor or Landorus-T, they fail as checks as Ice Beam OHKOes them both. Mamoswine can be mentioned too.

    TTar can also Roar or DTail Arceus-Electric so make sure you mention that.

    I would still mention a 252 HP/252 Speed/4 SAtk spread, you have less immediate power but can switch in on stuff like Zekrom/Yveltal easier.

    Kyogre and Yveltal are still useful teammates for taking advantage of Ground-types and beating blobs (if Kyogre is Specs) so mention them.

    OO Focus Blast for dealing with Excadrill, Ttar, Dialga, and Ferrothorn.

    Mention Ferrothorn as a counter as it takes your hits with ease and Toxic/Leech Seed stalls you to death. Toxic is general is bad for Arceus-Electric as well.
  18. Melee Mewtwo

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    re: 252 HP vs Spatk

    There was a long IRC discussion on it not too long ago that basically said:
    -252 HP lets you check palkia ez in neutral, maybe in rain
    -252 spatk lets you maybe check palkia in neutral, buttfucked in rain
    This and the disappearance of weather are two MASSIVE changes from BW as you can't sling out super strong Thunders anymore and you can actually run a solid Palkia check. For this reason I'm pro-252HP (plus it helps with support donner), but if you have really cool calcs to justify 252 spatk pls share.
  19. Cobalt314

    Cobalt314

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    I usually try to get Arceus to +2 +2 when I play, so I'll be factoring in two Calm Minds and a Timid nature with these calcs. Don't know if they support the 252 SpA EVs, but they do provide solid info:

    +2 252 SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 390-462 (93.7 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
    +2 4 SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ho-Oh: 320-378 (76.9 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    (No chance to OHKO Ho-Oh if only running 4 SpA)

    +2 252 SpA Arceus-Electric Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Groudon: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 4 SpA Arceus-Electric Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Groudon: 330-390 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    (Doesn't OHKO Groudon without 252 SpA)

    +2 252 SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Judgment vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 316-373 (98.1 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    +2 4 SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Judgment vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Palkia: 259-306 (80.4 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (252 SpA will have a high chance of OHKO if Palkia isn't running Assault Vest)

    This may or may not be useful, but it's the best I could find. Let me know if this is sufficient, and if it is, whether I should paste this into the analysis.
  20. Melee Mewtwo

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    +2 is unreasonable, if you get that far you can probably keep boosting. +1 or unboosted are where it will matter.
  21. Cobalt314

    Cobalt314

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    Well, then at +1, I didn't find any significant changes to OHKO's, but for 2- and 3HKO's, I found something else:

    +1 252 SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Judgment vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 237-279 (53.3 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 4 SpA Zap Plate Arceus-Electric Judgment vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 195-229 (43.9 - 51.5%) -- 8.6% chance to 2HKO
    (Very low chance to 2HKO at only 4 SpA)

    +1 252 SpA Arceus-Electric Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus-Ground: 238-280 (53.6 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 4 SpA Arceus-Electric Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Arceus-Ground: 194-230 (43.6 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
    (Same as above)

    +1 252 SpA Arceus-Electric Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 198-233 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO
    +1 4 SpA Arceus-Electric Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 162-191 (38.2 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    (No chance to 2HKO if only running 4 SpA)

    Again, not sure if this is good, but it's something. This is factoring in Timid and one CM boost. Also, there are alternate spreads in the Set Details section that deal with different speed investments, which will allow more investment in both HP and SAtk, if you're interested.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2014
  22. Sweep

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    +1 252 SpA Arceus-Electric Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 198-233 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 66.4% chance to 2HKO

    You forgot to account for leftovers. Also, bulky Excadrill typically run Special Defense investment; Ice Beam will not 2HKO it.
  23. Cobalt314

    Cobalt314

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    Oh, whoops. I'm not really used to Bulky Excadrill, so if we assume a 252/28 split (which may or may not be accurate), we get the following calcs:

    +1 252 SpA Arceus-Electric Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Excadrill: 189-223 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 4 SpA Arceus-Electric Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 28 SpD Excadrill: 155-183 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Which essentially doesn't help with the 252 SAtk argument. I may or may not be correct about the Excadrill's SDef EVs, so let me know if I'm off on the calcs.
  24. sammao

    sammao

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    Excadrill and Arceus Ground are uncommon anyway. However, I support 252 SpA because of the following:

    252 SpA Arceus-Electric Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Groudon: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    verses

    4 SpA Arceus-Electric Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Groudon: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    I have faced lots of opponent that switch Groudon directly into Electric Arceus, only to get 2HKO. And it is not difficult to predict them switching in. If you run 252 HP you miss this crucial 2HKO.
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  25. Cobalt314

    Cobalt314

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    Well, it seems like we're having some difficulty deciding on the optimal EV spread. So, if it's not too much trouble for you guys, I'll jump in and say that I have other options for speed in the Set Details section. Therefore, if not fully investing in Speed, you have leftover EVs to invest in the missing stat, and hopefully, this will help reach a compromise between special attack and hit point investment. This may or may not be helpful, but it will probably provide at least some sort of roundabout way to resolve this issue (or it could backfire and start a whole other debate on the optimal speed investment). Just an afterthought. I'll keep the EVs the way they are for now until a consensus is reached.

    Edit: I'm having a few Wi-Fi issues atm, so you may or may not see this message more than once.
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