Ubers Arceus-Normal (QC 3/3 GP 1/2)

shrang

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Overview
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Like His real-life counterparts, Arceus's role as the Pokemon deity is shrouded in many narratives of His power. Some mortals claim He is omnipotent in battle, able to smite anything and everything that comes His way. Others claim that He is in fact quite weak and incredibly overhyped. In reality, He is both and none at the same time. It is true that much of Arceus's power is exaggerated. His signature set, the Extreme Killer, is strong, but it has very hard counters in most cases, adds little defensively apart from the ability to revenge kill weakened threats, and requires setup to do anything of significance. His other sets, while useful, also have significant problems.

However, while humans do exaggerate His abilities, most of Arceus's power is substantiated by cold hard stats and an expansive movepool. While very good counters exist for all of Arceus's sets, He has the movepool to theoretically defeat any counter that comes His way. His mixed bulk is only matched by the toughest of walls, which makes setting up extremely easy. In short, after the pre-battle tintinnabulation is complete, please stare in awe and wondrous presentiment at what is conceivably one of the best Pokemon in the entire game. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.

Extreme Killer
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name: Extreme Killer
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Extreme Speed
move 3: Earthquake / Overheat
move 4: Overheat / Shadow Claw
item: Life Orb / Lum Berry / Silk Scarf
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 4 Def / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

Moves
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Swords Dance and Extreme Speed allow Arceus to sweep late game when His checks have been weakened or removed. Shadow Claw is a weak but reliable method for Arceus to damage Ghosts. On the other hand, Shadow Force is powerful yet easy to play around. Earthquake is Arceus's strongest attack against Rock- and Steel-types. Overheat allows Arceus to fry Scizor, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Skarmory, although it must be used carefully if rain is present. Brick Break can replace Earthquake to hit Ferrothorn in the rain, but it is a rather weak option against other Steel-types. Magic Coat is a very interesting option to bounce back status thrown at Arceus, as well as to reflect Roar and Whirlwind. It also allows Arceus to serve as a decent anti-lead that prevents Deoxys-S, Smeargle, and others from setting up their entry hazards. Recover can be used to boost up more slowly, but because most of Arceus's counters either use status moves or deal enough damage to offset Recover, it is a rather poor option most of the time, especially when it costs Arceus a precious coverage move. Substitute can prevent status, but because a lot of walls have Roar or Whirlwind, it can only get Arceus so far. Refresh can be used to remove status, one of the more reliable ways of dealing with Arceus. With Refresh, Arceus can Swords Dance on a predicted status move, and then cure itself of the status easily the next turn. Stone Edge is also a decent option to OHKO Lugia and physically defensive Yveltal after Stealth Rock damage, as well as to always OHKO physically defensive Ho-oh.

Set Details
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This is probably Arceus's most iconic set. With His excellent bulk and decent power, He can easily set up late game when His counters have been weakened and mop up the remains. Extreme Speed and bulk make Arceus very difficult to revenge kill; He is particularly difficult for an offensive team to take Arceus down late game. What makes Arceus scary for offensive teams is that the Pokemon that can kill Arceus tend to be ripped to shreds by Extreme Speed, while those that can take Extreme Speed tend to either be too slow, in which case they are destroyed by coverage moves, or they are too weak to take down Arceus. This is not to say that Arceus is invincible, but He does force the opponent to pack either a relatively hard counter or a loose group of checks to make sure that Arceus does not sweep them. Arceus's role is not just limited to that of a sweeper, either. His strong priority move allows Him to take down a lot of frail or weakened threats, for example, Blaziken. If He is packing Magic Coat, He can also serve as a very good anti-lead, bouncing back entry hazards or just picking off the opponent with Extreme Speed.

Arceus has a number of EV spreads that He can run. The one provided above allows Arceus to at least Speed tie other Arceus. 56 Speed EVs with an Adamant nature can be used to outspeed Swords Dance Rayquaza. An Adamant nature can be run with 124 Speed EVs to outspeed positive natured base 90s, most notably Timid Dialga. A slower EV spread with 16 Speed EVs can be used to outspeed Modest Dialga.

As for the item, Arceus generally has three options. Lum Berry allows Arceus to avoid status, specifically from Will-O-Wisp support Arceus. It is very important to note that Arceus is very weak with a Lum Berry, so you really need to weaken the opposing team before you try to sweep with Arceus. Life Orb is preferred if Arceus is using a Jolly nature to offset the drop in power. It is also better on sets using Overheat to give the move the extra kick needed to take down Skarmory. Silk Scarf is a good option to boost the power of Extreme Speed without the recoil of Life Orb, and it is a decent option alongside Magic Coat. Leftovers can also be used, but it is rather useless, since the most common ways of dealing with Arceus are status and phazing, and Leftovers does not help Arceus avoid any notable 2HKOes.

Usage Tips
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Please don't be single-track-minded and just send Arceus in at the earliest opportunity to set up and attack. That kind of mentality will just waste you a perfectly good Arceus. It is very important to realize that Arceus is a late game cleaner, not a wallbreaker. Should your opponent still have a Giratina, Lugia, or any other physically bulky wall, you're just going to end up getting Arceus crippled. It also means that, while Arceus is bulky, you also have to know the limits of what He can take, and potentially how much damage He needs be able to deal to sweep. Setting Arceus up on a Kyogre that is in the middle of spamming Water Spout is just going to result in a fainted Arceus. It also means that if your opponent potentially still has a Pokemon that can tank an Extreme Speed and damage Arceus, that even tanking Surf from Kyogre might be a bad idea. People often fail to recognize that while Arceus looks amazing on paper, He has some serious limitations in practice. Most notably, Extreme Speed, for all its priority, is actually not that strong. Anything remotely physically bulky can take one and stop Arceus from sweeping. A Pokemon like physically defensive Ho-Oh can tank a +2 Extreme Speed and hit back hard with Sacred Fire, potentially burning Arceus in the process. That being said, if you are smart with using Arceus and expect to sweep with it only when you've lured out and crippled its checks, there really is no other Pokemon that can get the job done like Extreme Killer Arceus.

Team Options
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Mega Gengar traps and either weakens or eliminates most of Extreme Killer's checks and counters, including Lugia, Groudon, support Arceus, and Skarmory. It can also sacrifice itself to take down one of Arceus's counters with Destiny Bond. Swords Dance Lum Berry Groudon, Knock Off Blaziken, and Calm Mind Kyogre with Ice Beam can severely weaken or outright KO the Giratina formes, which cannot trapped by Mega Gengar. Xerneas pairs well with Arceus, resisting Fighting-type moves aimed at Him, as well as threatening the Giratina formes with Moonblast. It can also remove burns and other status from Arceus by using Aromatherapy, allowing Him to be a bit more careless against many Pokemon. Ho-Oh can switch into Will-O-Wisps and phazing moves aimed at Arceus and dish out powerful Brave Birds and Sacred Fires, provided you can give it Defog or Rapid Spin support. Yveltal and Darkrai can take advantage of Giratina and Lugia, either by firing off Dark-type STAB attacks or using Dark Void in the case of Darkrai. Mewtwo can switch into Fighting-type moves.

If Arceus is using a Lum Berry, it is very much recommended that He is supported by multiple layers of entry hazards, namely Spikes, as He is quite weak without an item to boost His power. Regardless of the item, Sticky Web is always helpful for Arceus, allowing Him to slow down revenge killers such as Terrakion and Mega Gengar. Smeargle and Shuckle can set up Sticky Web relatively reliably.


Other Options
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Normal Arceus can run a Choice Band set to some effect, which gives Him greater power to revenge kill some threats such as Darkrai and Mega Mewtwo Y with less residual damage. He can also cripple some of its potential counters by Tricking a Choice Band onto them. Normal Arceus can also run a walling set comprised of Will-O-Wisp, Recover, Perish Song and an attacking move due to its excellent defenses. The two aforementioned sets are not as good in XY for one reason: Mega Gengar. Mega Gengar can easily switch into Choice Banded Extreme Speed or Wallceus and render Arceus completely helpless.

Normal Arceus, like all His other formes, can run a Calm Mind set. However, Normal Arceus has a pretty poor STAB typing, while it is hard to justify using such a set over the Extreme Killer set. Grass Knot can be used on the Extreme Killer set to heavily damage Groudon, Hippowdon, and Quagsire, three Pokemon that can annoy Arceus a lot. Choice Specs is an option to lure in and cripple physical walls, but Choice Band Arceus can also cripple walls. Finally, Arceus can run a Work Up set, but Work Up is in general, a pretty bad move, especially on a Pokemon that can use Swords Dance and Calm Mind already.

Checks & Counters
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**Defensive Yveltal**: Yveltal can tank a +2 Extreme Speed with good health after Stealth Rock and OHKO in return with Dread Plate-boosted Foul Play. It can also be felled by the rare Stone Edge.

**Status**: Status is probably the only really reliable thing that every Arceus hates. The trouble is that Lum Berry, Refresh and Magic Coat can potentially screw you over, but burning or badly poisoning Arceus is never a bad thing. Because Arceus is not actually that strong, it is possible to inflict Lum Berry variants with status twice. Leech Seed also puts Arceus on a timer and makes Him much easier to stall out.

**Phazing**: As Arceus is relatively weak compared to other hard hitters, He is often a bit easier to phaze out. Keep in mind that Roar and Whirlwind might get bounced back by Magic Coat; using a bulky Pokemon that hits hard can make Arceus second guess whether to Magic Coat or not. Something like Groudon is a diffucult for Arceus to play around with Magic Coat—getting hit by Earthquake isn't something that Arceus wants to do over and over again, and Groudon can take a couple of Extreme Speeds. Dragon Tail also bypasses Magic Coat completely.

**Bulky Steel-types**: Skarmory is one of the best answers to Arceus. Forretress can use Toxic and stall out Arceus with Pain Split. Choice Band Scizor and Mega Scizor can tank an attack from Extreme Killer Arceus and deal huge damage in return with Superpower. All of the aforementioned Steel-types needs to watch out for Overheat from Extreme Killer Arceus and Will-O-Wisp from Wallceus. Ferrothorn can annoy an Arceus that lacks Brick Break or Overheat with Leech Seed and Toxic.

**Unaware Quagsire and Clefable**: Pokemon with Unaware have a lot of problems in and of themselves and are potentially beaten by Magic Coat, but they don't care about Swords Dance and tank Extreme Speed with no problem at all. Quagsire is a bit better than Clefable as it can use Scald to fish for burns which can't be stopped by Magic Coat.

**Sableye**: Sableye can burn Arceus and use Foul Play to severely damage those that attempt to boost more after getting burned, or those that attempt to play mind games with Magic Coat.

**Physical Walls**: Giratina, Hippowdon, and Lugia can take an attack from Extreme Killer and status or phaze Him. Note that Magic Coat makes status and phazing unreliable at times. Hippowdon and Lugia also lack any way of reducing Arceus's power, meaning they need to either phaze Arceus or use Toxic, and phazing becomes useless when Arceus is the last Pokemon remaining. Lugia can also fall to +2 Stone Edge after Stealth Rock damage. Physically defensive Xerneas can Roar Arceus out and can hit relatively hard.

**Support Arceus**: Checking Arceus with another Arceus can be risky due to Speed ties, Will-O-Wisp's imperfect accuracy, and the threat of Lum Berry or Magic Coat. However, Ghost, Steel, and Rock Arceus can usually cripple Arceus with Will-O-Wisp, as they resist or are immune to Extreme Speed. Any other support Arceus forme without a weakness to one of Arceus's coverage moves can also burn Arceus in an emergency, although all of them can be foiled by Lum Berry Arceus. Fighting Arceus is a bit different, as it can tank an Extreme Speed and deal heavy damage back with Judgment.

**Physical Tanks**: These include Choice Band Landorus-T, Groudon, physically defensive Ho-Oh, Giratina-O, and physically defensive Gyarados with Dragon Tail. Landorus-T can tank a hit from Extreme Killer and OHKO with Superpower. Groudon can either hit back very hard or use Roar or Dragon Tail to force Arceus out while taking an Extreme Speed easily. Ho-Oh needs lots of Defense investment and Stealth Rock off the field, but it can take an Extreme Speed or two and hit back hard with Sacred Fire to fish for burns or use Whirlwind to phaze Arceus out if needed. Giratina-O can check Arceus once with Dragon Tail or burn Him with Will-O-Wisp. Gyarados can Intimidate Arceus once and Dragon Tail Him out, but that's about the limit of its abilities.

**Revenge Killers**: Make sure that Arceus has taken some prior damage before attempting to revenge kill it, as it is very difficult to actually OHKO a full health Arceus. Choice Specs Omastar in the rain is about the only thing that can OHKO a full health Arceus, but with weather being timed, it is not very reliable. Choice Scarf Terrakion is probably the next best option. Mega Gengar can deal heavy damage to Arceus with Focus Blast. Choice Scarf Dialga can revenge kill an Arceus at about 50% with Draco Meteor.

**Contant Pressure**: Extreme Killer may look incredibly intimidating, but one thing you really need to keep in mind is that it can't run everything at once. Many inexperienced players are scared before even fighting one and fail to recognize that He is just a Pokemon with stats and moves. Fear of a name only increases fear of the Pokemon Himself. In general, unboosted Arceus is weak, which means it'll need to set up before it does anything remotely scary. Never let it set up for free—hit it really hard with a powerful move, or get status or Leech Seed onto it. Even when boosted, it tends not to hit bulky Pokemon too hard. If it comes in after something like Choice Scarf Thunder from Kyogre, go to a defensive wall such as Groudon and Dragon Tail or Roar it out, then limit the amount of times that Extreme Killer can come in and set up. That being said, Arceus has no technically safe switch-in—it has a way to beat any specific counter if it wants to.



CB and Wallceus backups just in case you need them (requested by MM2):

Choice Band
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name: Choice Band
move 1: Extreme Speed
move 2: Trick
move 3: Shadow Claw
move 4: Swords Dance / Earthquake
item: Choice Band
nature: Adamant
evs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe

Moves
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STAB Extreme Speed from Normal Arceus is the strongest priority attack in the game that is reliable, and it can revenge kill many frailer or weakened threats when Arceus has an Choice Band equipped. It can be used to either revenge kill early- to mid-game or clean up late game. Trick allows Arceus to cripple many of His counters, including Lugia and Giratina. Shadow Claw hits Ghost-types, in particular Mega Gengar and Giratina-O, as they are immune to both Extreme Speed and Trick. Shadow Force can be used in its place, but being Choice-locked into a charging move is undesirable. Swords Dance can be used if Arceus has Tricked His Choice Band and is still around in the late game after His checks are gone, while Earthquake allows Him to smash down Steel-types. Return can be used as a strong STAB move, but Arceus cannot be afford to give up Extreme Speed, and He is strapped for moveslots as is.

Set Details
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While this set still gives Arceus a chance to sweep, Choice Band Arceus's emphasis is much more heavily on His ability to revenge kill other sweepers. Holding a Choice Band gives Arceus the power He needs to smite down many threats. For example, Life Orb Arceus cannot OHKO Mega Blaziken, but Choice Band Arceus can with only one instance of Stealth Rock damage a good proportion of the time. Darkrai is also OHKOed by Choice Band Extreme Speed after Stealth Rock damage and a round of Life Orb damage. Choice Band Extreme Speed also OHKOes Mega Mewtwo Y after two Stealth Rock switch-ins. In many ways, this set plays very much like a Choice Scarf user. Like a number of Choice users, Arceus has the ability to Trick His checks, which is convenient since most of the Pokemon that check Him are walls, and they hate being Tricked a Choice Band. The downside of the set, obviously, is that Arceus only has one move to revenge kill Pokemon with, and that move has low PP and no super effective coverage whatsoever. By using this set, Arceus has to either give up His chance to sweep late game (by dropping Swords Dance) or additional coverage (by dropping Earthquake), although do note that if the opposing team is weakened enough, Choice Banded Extreme Speed will roll over teams late-game anyway.

Usage Tips
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As mentioned already, Choice Band Arceus is mainly a revenge killer with the added bonus of being able to sweep late game. This obviously does not mean that you Trick away the Choice Band immediately and attempt to Swords Dance and play this set exactly like Extreme Killer. If that is your intention, stop reading this set and go back up to the Extreme Killer analysis. Keep Choice Band Arceus handy when your opponent has dangerous sweepers like Xerneas and Mega Blaziken still around. If they are of no imminent threat, be careful on how you use Trick as well. It is probably a good idea to double switch once or twice to gauge your opponent's reaction, it would be not be fun to Trick a Choice Band onto your opponent's Groudon, for example.


Team Options
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Like most revenge killers holding a Choice item, Choice Band Arceus is quite self-sufficient. However, good teammates to Him are like their check crippled by a Choice item, as well as Pokemon that can weaken Arceus's checks so He can clean up late game. For the former category, Mega Blaziken loves it when Giratina has been crippled, and Rock Polish Groudon and Swords Dance Rayquaza thrive when Lugia and Skarmory are locked into a single move. As for wallbreakers to pair up with Arceus, Mega Mewtwo X and Y, Yveltal, mixed Zekrom, Choice Specs Kyogre, and Mega Charizard X are all good choices.


Wallceus
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name: Wallceus
move 1: Will-O-Wisp
move 2: Recover
move 3: Return / Extreme Speed
move 4: Roar / Defog / Perish Song
item: Leftovers / Shed Shell
nature: Impish
evs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe

Moves
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Will-O-Wisp allows Arceus to cripple physically based Pokemon such as Groudon and Zekrom, while Recover allows Him to sponge hits. Return is the preferred STAB move as it allows Arceus hurt Ho-oh switch-ins, 2HKOing after Stealth Rock damage. Extreme Speed, though weak uninvested, can pick off weakened sweepers and Deoxys-A. The last move depends on what role Arceus needs to fill. Roar forces out setup sweepers, while Defog clears away entry hazards. Perish Song allows Wallceus to put a timer on last Pokemon setup sweepers if they are the last Pokemon remaining. Other moves that Arceus can use are Stone Edge to OHKO Ho-Oh, which walls the entire set if Stealth Rock is not up, Magic Coat to bounce back Taunt and entry hazards, and Earthquake to defeat Mega Gengar. Light Screen can be used if you want Arceus to serve as a special wall instead of a physical one, but Blissey is generally better for that role.

Set Details
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Wallceus got a mixed bag when it comes to the generation shift. On one hand, its effectiveness at walling physical attackers was enhanced with the drop in effectiveness of Fighting-types with the great exception of Mega Mewtwo X. On the other hand, one of the main reasons for the decreased power of Fighting-types is also the reason that Wallceus Himself is now under threat: Mega Gengar. With Shadow Tag and Taunt, it can completely shut down Wallceus unless He carries Earthquake or holds Shed Shell, and even with Earthquake, it can always use Destiny Bond to sacrifice itself to take down Wallceus. It can also use Focus Blast to easily 2HKO Wallceus. However, Wallceus is still a very sturdy wall if you either give it a Shed Shell or are able to weave your way around Mega Gengar.

The EVs outlined allow Wallceus to outspeed Swords Dance Rayquaza and burn it before it can deal massive damage. The rest of the EVs go into HP and Defense to allow Arceus to sponge a lot of physical attacks. Alternatively, a specially defensive spread can be used to allow Arceus to serve as more of a mixed wall, although special attackers such as Kyogre tends to hit a lot harder initially, and Arceus lacks any way of crippling special attackers or cushioning their hits outside of Light Screen. A max Speed and max HP spread with a Jolly nature can be used to outspeed Mega Lucario and burn it before it attacks, but the loss of bulk is substantial, and Wallceus does not want to take on Mega Lucario anyway.

Usage Tips
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As alluded to already, Wallceus is completely helpless against Mega Gengar if He is not using Earthquake or Shadow Claw or holding a Shed Shell. You must be extremely careful when Mega Gengar is around, or you will end up losing Wallceus. This means not using Perish Song when Mega Gengar is transformed and running amok, not using Roar unless absolutely necessary, and double switching to Pokemon with a favourable matchup against it frequently is a good idea.

Team Options
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The combination of smart switching and Pursuit users helps take down the menace known as Gengar. Mega Scizor is a good Pokemon to Pursuit Gengar with, as it is not particularly weak to any of Gengar's attacks except for Hidden Power Fire. Mega Tyranitar can also Pursuit Mega Gengar, and it can take a Focus Blast if it needs to. It can also run a RestTalk set to shut down Ho-Oh, which also plagues Wallceus. Deoxys-A can also force Mega Gengar to switch, and catch with Pursuit. Otherwise, Pokemon that can take strong special attacks, deal with Ho-Oh and Fighting-types help Arceus greatly. Specially Defensive Kyogre is a good Pokemon to run with Wallceus, as it can switch into most powerful special attackers that Wallceus cannot take on freely, such as Kyurem-W, Reshiram, and even Water Spout from Choice Specs Kyogre if need be. Gastrodon can defeat Choice Specs Kyogre and Palkia with relative ease, although it needs to watch for Toxic from Palkia. Countering Ho-Oh is problematic since Rock Arceus is not available when using Wallceus. The aforementioned RestTalk Tyranitar is an option for this, although it will have to watch out for Earthquake. Diancie is also a decent Ho-Oh check. The Giratina formes and Lugia, and Xerneas are excellent switch-ins to Blaziken and Mega Mewtwo X, the dominant Fighting-types in the tier.

If Wallceus is not using Defog, then it is highly recommended that He is paired with either a Rapid Spinner or a Defog user. Forretress and Excadrill are the most viable Rapid Spinners in the tier. As for Defog users other than Arceus, The Giratina-O are probably synergizes best with Wallceus. Other Defog users of note include Mega Scizor and Skarmory. Apart from Rapid Spinners and Defog users, Wallceus really appreciates cleric support, as He is a magnet for Toxic, while Toxic Spikes will also cripple Him greatly. Xerneas and Sylveon are excellent clerics in the tier that synergize well with Wallceus.
 
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Hello, I would rather have someone who actually doesn't underestimate how good this mon is in the current meta to do this analysis. I don't want all this bs, a lot players will agree with me that this mon is better in XY. Be mad at me but for example that list of checks is simply just crap and contains pretty much 50 % unviable mons and forgets the most practical counter, defensive Yveltal. First you need to emphasize how many of its old counters are just shit in XY when you compare them to BW. Let's go through the list:

  • Skarm is close to a true counter, but it is much worse in the XY metagame. It's a blunt defoger and Spike-stacking is worse than it was.
  • Giratina-A is a decent momentum killer, loses to Yveltal and Xerneas and gets shit on by no rocks Ho-oh. How great is it to encourage players to use this in the current meta? Giratina-O is also a max C+ranked mon, and the amount of support you need to justify whatever shit set you use with that 4MSS will not usually be worth it.
  • Lugia is nice and viable, but not like great anyway. It's very easy to remove with Gengar.
  • Forretress, no it just loses to LO EQs: +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 168-198 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO. It's a good passive check if you wish to use that, but Forretress itself is severely underpowered, spinning costs momentum and Spike-stacking is hard to pull off.
  • Groudon is a one time check, two time at best with Impish max def. It can either phaze for small damage if you are using Dtail, Roar for no damage, or EQ for ok damage (good damage with EP but then you die). Still a very viable mon, and one of the more practical ways to handle ekiller.
  • Sableye has no place in the meta lol. Spinblocking niche is gone, it's a bad stallbreaker compared to Yveltal, it gives Xerneas free switches (it's also gotten a weakness to Fairy-now). Since you listed Lum Berry as your primary option- it's worth noting that Sableye loses to EQ+Lum Berry.
  • Wallceus is not viable this generation. It's gengar bait, Ho-oh bait, gets wrecked by MMX and provides no synergy anyway. You are often better off using another support Arceus.
  • Ferrothorn was always a flimsy check to begin with- it has a slim chance vs Brick Break variants. It does well vs EQ ones, but Ferro itself lost a lot niche in Spike-stacking. Rest+Toxic Ferro is cool, but idk how well it checks E-killer tbh...
  • Ghostceus is really crap as a support Arceus- it's also not great as Calm Minder. SD Ghostceus is okay, so in conclusion you have a slightly viable mon that can almost check E-killer, but still gets crapped upon in most cases if you want to switch in as it boosts.
  • Rockceus/Steelceus- dies to +2 LO EQ (I am a big fan of LO Jolly) and therefore has to to rely on speed ties to counter. Or you know, they just fall flat to Lum Berry which is your primary item after all.
  • Fightceus is just awful this generation. As good as a check it is, is something I can't deny, but due to the viability of this mon, there must be emphasis towards what you are getting into when using it.
  • Mega Gengar either Dbonds for a 1 for 1 situation, but this requires Gengar to be mega-evolved beforehand as Jolly E-killer is faster. It's a decent emergency way of handling it at least.
  • Scarf Terrakion was cool, has gotten worse though. It's a bit viable but it's not like BW, but sure, this should be on the list.
  • CB-Lando-T is a check, iirc there was a lot of discussion about it last gen though, as it was a quite flimsy check or something idr.
  • Scizor- yeah Mega-Scizor is a nice check, it should be higher up on the list.
  • Mega Lucario- dies to Jolly variants.
  • swift swimmers and scarftran- LOL
You pretty much made a nice classic Gen5 list of counters and slapped on Mega Gengar and Luke there. If you start looking at the decline of actual viabilty of its checks, you realize it isn't as easy to find checks that actually fit into the metagame- many of the checks you listed requires extensive support to make a good team with (Giras, Fightcues) while some are just unviable (Swift Swimmers, Scarftran, wow Ghostceus).

Since you absolutely missed out on E-killers revenge killing capability, I'm going to have to take it as you don't know how to use this mon properly. And since you has so much energy when joking (?) about how the mon sucked then I will have to take it as you weren't lazy, you just don't know the metagame good enough to handle an analysis. You actually focus WAY too much on sweeping that you look past its revenge killing utility. With a Life Orb you are almost as strong as the CB set, and you can switch moves which is a big boon over scarf revenge killing, and is also why Ekiller is better at revenge killing than CBceus.

Also EVs are suboptimal. The list of Timid or Jolly base 90s that you need to outspeed, aka base 90s that resist E-speed, is limited to one mon, Dialga. Dialga doesn't run Timid on common occasion and the spread is therefore no optimal. 16 Speed is all you need if you wanna go bulky this gen, 56 could be used if paranoia for Rayquaza is a thing. 252 Speed Jolly with Life Orb is imo the best spread this generation but idk what other QC thinks about this.

Sorry if this came off as harsh, I understand this just being a skeleton and all so I don't know how much you intended to change anyway.
 
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I'd maybe mention Mega Kangaskhan as a check, it can Power-Up Punch while arc is boosting then Sucker Punch to finish off. I agree with everything Hack He Must said, and yeah Yveltal should be down there. Band is kind of ridiculous with Mega Gengar everywhere, EK is absolutely better.
Definitely no QC lol, but this analysis doesn't seem very well thought out.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
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- Be careful of Mega Gengar if you don't have Roar
Mega Gengar pretty much always runs Taunt so not even Roar will save you.

Wallceus is outclassed by physically defensive Arceus-Fairy/Water imo and I am not sure its terribly viable this gen. It's Mega Gengar bait and not good at checking Ho-Oh, Blaziken, and M2X which are some of the most threatening physical forces this gen.

I can't tell if you're joking or not but I'm with Hack on this one - EKiller is way better than CB/Wallceus and is by far the best set this gen, so making it out to be crap or overrated or required tons of support is just plain wrong lol. A lot of the checks you mentioned are either unviable (Scarf Heatran, Swift Swimmers, is Forretress even viable anymore), significantly worse in this generation (Giratina-O, Ghost Arceus, Fighting Arceus, Terrakion to an extent, Ferrothorn, lol Sableye), or are gambles (Arceus-Rock/Steel, Mega Lucario, Mega Gengar - all of them lose to Jolly LO which imo is the best EKiller variant this gen).

If you were just joking then that's obviously fine, but it didn't really come across as a joke ao much as it came across as undeserved bashing of what is arguably one of the best Pokemon in Gen 6. I'm not saying you shouldn't be the one to do this analysis or anything since I know you are a good analysis writer, but if you're gonna do it you gotta do it justice. I mean, if you hate EKiller that much then why did you reserve it?

Two checks that you should mention though are Phys Def Yveltal (easily takes +2 ESpeed and does >80% with Foul Play, currently one of the best checks) and Mega Aggron (takes +2 EQ like a champ and can retaliate with DTail or Low Kick).
 

shrang

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Hello, I would rather have someone who actually doesn't underestimate how good this mon is in the current meta to do this analysis. I don't want all this bs, a lot players will agree with me that this mon is better in XY.
You obviously can't detect the dripping sarcasm in the OP. Don't worry I'll make the actual analysis nice and proper, I'm only taking jabs at it in the skeleton :D

Don't worry, I'll fix everything else, I do realise that I missed a lot of things
 
Minor issue, but this thing, Avalugg walls you to death lol. Avalugg sucks but it does wall whatever move you throw at it.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 164-192 (41.6 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 150-177 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Stealth Rock down, and you sort of 2HKO it with the right predictions, otherwise it can just shrug off the hit with Recover. Avalugg even gets Roar lol, so it does qualify as a solid check. Lum Berry variants can forget about breaking this iceberg. The main thing about Avalugg as a check is it gets a recovery move, significantly higher physical bulk than Hippowdon and even Groudon.

Gyarados should be a one-time check, it is even more useful in XY, beats Mega Blaziken and checks Mega Lucario and Ho-Oh.
 
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Fireburn

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Counters section is better, but I'd like to comment on just a few things:

-Don't even mention Quagsire, Swift Swimmers, or Scarf Heatran. They are basically unviable in this metagame. I doubt even Forretress is viable.

-Has anyone used Mega Aerodactyl in Ubers, and if so, how much damage is it dealing? Something tells me its not a terribly good check.

-Giratina-O isn't really a hard counter - +2 Shadow Force OHKOes it, +2 Shadow Claw 2HKOes, and it loses to Lum variants. Giratina as well.

-Make sure you mention the coinflip between Rock/Steelceus and Jolly LO Normal Arceus.

-Pls no Avalugg.

I swear if Gyarados is mentioned as a check I am going to fight trickroom
 
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Lol if Avalugg is mentioned, then things like Tangrowth and Mega-Heracross should also be mentioned. So I agree with Fireburn, should not even mentioned it.

Also, Bronzong needs to be mentioned as a Check.
Edit: ar, forgot about steel nerf
 
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@ sammao, Bronzong loses to Shadow Claw now with the Steel nerf :(.

Extremekiller

Ok, I STRONGLY disagree that max speed Jolly Life Orb should be the main set. Running max speed simply to bone the awful Lucario and risk speed ties vs. Support Arceus seems suboptimal, especially when running no bulk and Life Orb at the same time makes EKiller FAR easier to pressure offensively. It also hits a little less hard than Adamant Silk Scarf. I don't think 56 Speed should be the benchmark as Adamant Rayquaza is relatively rare nowadays, but in no way would I run max speed. I'd run only 16 speed myself as this is a relatively slow metagame, but the 124 spread you gave to outrun Timid Dialga before is actually fine with me.

Mention Sticky Web support, as it can allow Silk Scarf EKiller to beat switchin Rock-and-Steel Arceus without running a mediocre item like Lum Berry (which sucks right now due to the bulky nature of the new metagame). Sticky Web is not easy to keep up and needs significant Taunt support from Pokemon like Darkrai and Mewtwo formes, but EKiller is very scary when given it. You also beat opposing EKiller which is very nice.

I agree with Hack that EKiller's utility in revenging stuff like weakened +2 Darkrai should be mentioned. It also provides a way to deal with stuff like +1 MewtwoY (which a special Choice Scarfer might not be strong enough to revenge) and annoying shits like Shaymin-S.

Choice Band

Great job here.

Wallceus

Stress the big advantage to using this over another support Arceus form are the ability to wield Leftovers. You can also lure and burn some checks, such as Groudon and Yveltal so mention that. I'd put Defog first slash over Roar but you don't need to make that change, I agree Roar is really good on this. Also, stress how badly Mega Gengar destroys this thing (something you understated); you cannot simply Roar it out, as most Mega Gengar carry Taunt. It cannot be played around; it simply destroys you.

Mention a Specially Defensive Wallceus too, it checks Palkia and Xerneas very well (it laughs as Geomancy Xerneas and Roars it out if you stay even relatively healthy). It can naturally burn the physical attackers its weak to. I'm not sure whether you should mention this in Set Details or Other Options, so I'll let others comment on this. It's definitely a worthwhile spread though, even if Physically Defensive is better.

Checks & Counters


Mention Hippowdon as a hard check/soft counter. It easily deals with all variants of Extremekiller and phazes them out. It can also Toxic Wallceus. I'd put Hippowdon in the "pretty good" counters but it cannot do much back to it.

Unless Arceus carries Stone Edge, it cannot kill Physically Defensive Yveltal with any move at +2 after Stealth Rock. The extremely weak Lum Berry variant usually fails to 2HKO it if Yveltal is healthy. Yveltal destroys EKiller right back with Foul Play. For this reason, I argue that Yveltal counters Swords Dance Arceus-Normal and should be moved up the list.

+2 0- Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 367-433 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Jolly Life Orb variants are one-shotted almost every time at 100% health.


I'd keep Physically Defensive Toxic Forretress, it still has some use even if it's not as good as last generation. When I'm telling you that the fossils should be removed, that is saying something :toast:.

Agreed with Fireburn that Giratina-O isn't a hard counter, more of a very soft check. Even though I have a very low opinion of Mega Lucario, it still beats non-Jolly Arceus and is absolutely worth mentioning as a check (so I disagree with Hack here).

Good job overall, still some things to add & fix but this is much better than before. Also remember to stress this line you had in the Checks & Counters section: "Ekiller may look incredibly intimidating, but one thing you really need to keep in mind is that it can't run everything at once." Well said, and while EKiller can ambush some of its potential checks with the right set, it opens up vulnerabilities elsewhere. For instance, Overheat variants forgoing Earthquake will be utterly destroyed by Life Orb Dialga, and Arceus that run Recover open themselves up to being checked by a myriad of threats, even if they are harder to offensively check.
 
If Arceus-Normal holds life orb and uses a Jolly nature, it 2hkos 252 hp arceus formes past burn if they lack a resistance to Extreme Speed, while Arceus-rock or Arceus-steel must hit Will-O-Wisp, win four speed ties (Life Orb Earthquake does more than 52% even after burn, so they must Recover twice after burning it in order to weaken it, before knocking it out with Judgment), and avoid getting critical hitted for those three turns... (.85)(0.5)^4(0.9375)^3 =4.4%. So it's more than just wining one speed tie and hitting will-o-wisp. Correct me if I am wrong.I don't think they should be mentioned since they beat silk scarf variants only. Sableye sucks. If you at mentioningthat, might as well mention choice band Conkeldurr as well.
 
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Don't have enough time to do full comments (and Sweep is a god, anyways) just goingn to say that Quagsire should stay, imo. It wrecks Mega Blaziken, too, so it has a much more noticeable niche than last gen. Sableye also got a lot cooler with MMX and Mega Kanga so keep him.

Max speed ekiller beats Mega Gengar if it hasn't mega evolved yet. Not sure if that's big enough to make it main spread but it's still very big.
 

shrang

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If Arceus-Normal holds life orb and uses a Jolly nature, it 2hkos 252 hp arceus formes past burn if they lack a resistance to Extreme Speed, while Arceus-rock or Arceus-steel must hit Will-O-Wisp, win four speed ties (Life Orb Earthquake does more than 52% even after burn, so they must Recover twice after burning it in order to weaken it, before knocking it out with Judgment), and avoid getting critical hitted for those three turns... (.85)(0.5)^4(0.9375)^3 =4.4%. So it's more than just wining one speed tie and hitting will-o-wisp. Correct me if I am wrong.I don't think they should be mentioned since they beat silk scarf variants only. Sableye sucks. If you at mentioningthat, might as well mention choice band Conkeldurr as well.
Just saying, if you won that first tie and successfully hit Ekiller with WoW then you've already countered it. You could take a bunch from EQ, true, but a burned Arceus isn't doing anything significant from here on in. You might end up with 30% Rockceus (which can still check other things), while a burned LO Arceus that's losing 22.5% every turn is ridiculously easy to pivot around.
 
The Extreme Killer set can run quite a few combination of item/nature/EVs.

1. Lum Berry/Adamant/(240Hp/252Atk/16Spe)
With Earthquake, this set beats support Arceus quite easily, you SD on the switch and proceed to land two consecutive hits while Lum Berry heals any burn attempt. Another benefit of Lum Berry is that it provides you safety from toxic and burn coming from Lugia, Aegislash and Giratina(s) and hit hard with Shadow Force. It also save you from Ho-oh burn and have an easily time against Skarmory.

2. Life Orb/Jolly/(4Hp/252Atk/252Spe)
This set relies on a speed tie to beat support Arceus and hence is less effective for this matter. You SD on the switch and have to win a speed tie to not get burn before landing your first attack. I am not sure about the power difference between Life Orb Jolly and Non-Boosting item Adamant but I assume the former does more damage. This also leaves you with a burn proceeding the encounter with support Arceus unlike #1 above.

3. Silk Scarf/Adamant/(240Hp/252Atk/16Spe)
This set face significantly more problem against support Arceus, however it has more bulk than Life Orb (#2) and doesn't have the recoil. It secure OHKO after a SD that Lum Berry (#1) falls short on.
 
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I'd rather have the fire move slashed than recover. I also don't think shadow force isn't really worth it anymore since most of the ghosts it would target don't see much usage anymore, put the fire move in its place imo. The ghost move is mostly for Mega Gar and the odd Tina-o now. Recover and S force can just get mentions in the moves section.

Mention Jolly spread in set details for those that use LO along with item choice explanation. (iirc, that stuff goes in the set details section and the usage tips is just info about how to use in battle)

Smeargle, Galvantula and (MAYBE) Ariados
IMO it's just smeargle and sorta shuckle that are viable webs mons.

Mega Scizor is phys def mostly so its a pretty solid counter if no fire moves. (plus immune to trick) Mega Aero is unviable, remove please. Add phys def Xern, though.

Might want to reorganize the counters section to take into account the general viability of the mons listed.

Overall, looks good. Going to stamp it now since I trust you with the changes.
 
I've been trying out Jolly Wallceus with 252 HP/ 160 Def/ 96 Spe.

It still lets you outrun +Spe base 100s (namely Mega-Kangaskhan and Palkia). EKiller still manages a 3hko without Life Orb and a 2hko with it so you can still switch in and burn it. The spread yields a higher def stat than a Impish nature with the same speed stat. I think it's a better spread than the max speed Wallceus mentioned since outside of the non-existent Terrakion, there isn't much else worth outspeeding.
 
I think Life Orb is the best on EKiller, the power difference is huge and you miss so many KO opportunities with Lum Berry...
Shadow Force is excellent with Life Orb, thanks to the steel nerf it is harder to play around and strong enough to break through some of its counters with spikes on.
 
Arceus, the divine creator of the Pokemon world, has come down from His mighty throne in Heavens above, transcending the confide of mundane stats total shared by a multitude of His creations and establishing Himself as the original deity with a frenetic terpsichore before proceeding to pass swift Judgement on all who opposes Him. Though, landing on terrestrial land has reveal His original form voiding Him of his infrangible sanctum, and thus depleting Him of resistances except those of evil. Yet, after a brief period of preparation, He is capable of wiping all from the fabric of existence unencumbered.
 

Blue Jay

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Arceus, the divine creator of the Pokemon world, has come down from His mighty throne in Heavens above, transcending the confide of mundane stats total shared by a multitude of His creations and establishing Himself as the original deity with a frenetic terpsichore before proceeding to pass swift Judgement on all who opposes Him. Though, landing on terrestrial land has reveal His original form voiding Him of his infrangible sanctum, and thus depleting Him of resistances except those of evil. Yet, after a brief period of preparation, He is capable of wiping all from the fabric of existence unencumbered.
No. The Overviews should read easily and be informative above all.

If you want to write an analysis, you should reserve one. But please put down the thesaurus first.
 
shrang If you could get the checks and counter section into the new format (check out the index for more details) by tomorrow that would be excellent. We are going to have the new dex live soon and need at least a place holder skeleton.
 
Get rid of the utter garbage magic coat slash too. Spread is also stupid

Sableye and Banette are both ass and should not that high on the counter list.



Change this:
- Ekiller may look incredibly intimidating, but one thing you really need to keep in mind is that it can't run everything at once

To
- Ekiller may look incredibly intimidating, but one thing you really need to keep in mind is that it can't run everything at once. However, Gengar exists and easily removes a majority of Ekillers counters, meaning this issue is less problematic than it used to be.
 

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