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Arceus-Normal (Update) QC 3/3

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by gookie, Mar 20, 2012.

  1. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    [Overview]

    <p>After the pre-battle tintinnabulation is completed, please stare in pure, unadulterated horror and ominous presentiment at what is unequivocally the best and most versatile Pokemon in the game. Dare not incur Arceus's divine wrath, or else the consequences shall be severe and merciless, and life shall become but an evanescent wisp.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Extreme Killer (Swords Dance)
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: ExtremeSpeed
    move 3: Shadow Claw / Shadow Force
    move 4: Earthquake / Brick Break / Recover
    item: Life Orb / Silk Scarf
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Thanks to Arceus's supreme bulk and the priority of ExtremeSpeed, this set is extremely difficult to revenge kill. Combine it with a meaty base 120 Attack stat, Swords Dance, and STAB on said ExtremeSpeed, and you get one of the most frightening late game sweepers in the entire game, capable of decimating offensive teams and cleaning up weakened defensive teams with ease.</p>

    <p>Swords Dance will boost the power of Arceus's STAB ExtremeSpeed to horrifyingly powerful levels, devastating anything in Arceus's way that isn't resembling a physical tank. With just a Silk Scarf and Swords Dance boost, it is more than strong enough to OHKO even the bulkiest of Uber titans, such as Mewtwo, Kyogre, Reshiram, Palkia, Zekrom, and Ho-Oh. Shadow Claw is necessary to allow Arceus to repel Ghost-type Pokemon such as Giratina-O, who can come in on ExtremeSpeed without any hassle. However, Shadow Force provides a good deal more power, so much so that Lugia and Giratina risk being OHKOed by Shadow Force after taking Stealth Rock damage provided Arceus has used Swords Dance once, is Adamant, and is holding Life Orb. Shadow Force also alleviates any fears about Wobbuffet. Unfortunately, Shadow Force's charge turn makes it easy for the opponent to play around.</p>

    <p>Earthquake enables Arceus to break down Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon that could otherwise take ExtremeSpeed, such as Dialga and Tyranitar. Brick Break isn't nearly as strong against Dialga or Heatran, but it is significantly more effective against Ferrothorn, who can otherwise annoy Arceus with Leech Seed. Recover keeps Arceus around longer to get in more boosts, but it limits coverage quite a bit.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EVs and nature give Arceus maximum power while granting enough Speed to outpace Rayquaza and all Pokemon that sit at the base 90 threshold. However, if Rayquaza is not an issue, one can choose to invest all of the Speed EVs into HP for additional bulk, allowing Arceus to take hits more effectively while setting up. Overheat is an additional option to take down Skarmory, but its effectiveness is nullified in the rain. A Jolly nature with maximum investment in Speed can also be used to get the jump on Terrakion and slower variants of Ghost Arceus and Steel Arceus, but it affords Arceus much less bulk and power. Life Orb is the preferred item for the great power boost it affords Arceus, but Silk Scarf grants a nice buff to ExtremeSpeed while preserving Arceus's bulk.</p>

    <p>Despite the sheer threat presence this set has, it can still be stopped by most dedicated physical walls--other Arceus, Lugia, Skarmory, and Giratina. Common Choice Scarf carriers that resist ExtremeSpeed, such as Terrakion, Dialga, and Heatran, can take a hit from Arceus and severely damage or fell it with Close Combat, Draco Meteor, or Fire Blast respectively. Wobbuffet can easily trap and dispatch Choice Scarf users thanks to its ability, Shadow Tag. It can also utilize Encore to buy Arceus a much-needed turn to use Swords Dance safely. Pairing Tickle Wobbuffet with a Pursuit user such as Scizor also makes for a quick way to eliminate Lugia. Powerful special attackers such as Kyogre and Heatran can deal with most physically defensive Arceus. Giratina, Lugia, and Skarmory are also easily fried by Zekrom and Reshiram's STAB Electric- and Fire-type attacks, respectively. The latter, however, will need sunlight support to reliably take on Lugia.</p>

    PROPOSED CHANGES


    Change primary EV spread to: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe when using Adamant. There will be a mention of the Jolly 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe mention in AC, with a pairing of Life Orb, it will say how this spread gets the jump on non Choice Scarf Terrakion, and speed ties at worst with opposing Arceus aiming to cripple it with a burn. This spread will be emphasised as a perfectly viable alternative as opposed to a lesser alternative (thus is the problem with having two perfectly good spreads).
    Items will be Silk Scarf / Lum Berry / Life Orb (Life Orb gets the last slash because Silk Scarf and Lum Berry are more viable with the 'main' spread, Life Orb, again, will be stressed with the Jolly spread. Mention that non Life Orb Arceus' EQ will fail to OHKO Terrakion, and whilst it can be picked off with ExtremeSpeed the next turn Terrakion can switch out to live another day. Lum Berry lets Arceus avoid crippling burn but the loss of power is very noticeable, failling to OHKO Palkia and Mewtwo after Stealth Rock.
    Will have a short paragraph about other spreads, 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe Jolly, 252 HP / 132 Atk / 124 Spe Adamant, 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe Adamant.
    Leftovers in AC, mention it couples well with a bulky spread and with Recover.

    OO Mention of Specs, Power Herb + Shadow Force.

    Checks and Counters
    Best counters are -
    Skarmory
    Wallceus
    Giratina
    Lugia

    checks in this order -
    Terrakion
    Arceus Ghost
    Groudon
    Rock and Steel Arceus
    Toxic Pain Split Forretress
    Scarf Dialga, Scarf Heatran.
    Swift Swim Kabutops and Omastar
    Max Special Attack Fighting Arceus against 0 HP ExtremeKiller
    Choice Band Scizor
    Physically Defensive Giratina-O with Will-O-Wisp
    Physically Defensive Ferrothorn

    Overheat is mentioned as being useful against Skarmory, but not against Forretress and Ferrothorn




    [SET]
    name: Wallceus (Physical Wall)
    move 1: Will-O-Wisp / Reflect
    move 2: Return
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Roar / Ice Beam / Perish Song
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Impish
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>In addition to being a nigh unstoppable sweeper, Arceus can also function as a nearly unbreakable wall. Arceus's excellent HP, Defense, and Special Defense stats already lend it to taking hits well, and Recover as well as a litany of support and coverage moves only sweeten the deal. Although its Normal typing isn't the best pick for a defensive Pokemon, a lone weakness and the ability to hold Leftovers are a couple of huge advantages Normal Arceus can boast over its other formes.</p>

    <p>Normal Arceus generally lends itself more to taking physical hits, and with good reason. In addition to a certain fat pink blob being far better of a dedicated special wall, Arceus learns a couple of useful moves to disable physical attackers, namely Will-O-Wisp and Roar. The former allows Arceus to disable nearly every physical sweeper in Ubers—Groudon, Rayquaza, other Arceus, Garchomp, and Zekrom, to name a few—for the rest of the match with a crippling burn. Will-O-Wisp also saps the afflicted opponent's HP, allowing Arceus to simply keep healing itself with Recover until the burned opponent faints. However, Will-O-Wisp's accuracy is shaky and it does nothing to Fire-type Pokemon such as Ho-Oh. Reflect, although it only lasts five turns, does not miss and also benefits the whole team. Return provides a solid STAB attack that can cause a nice chunk of damage to most Uber Pokemon, who generally have lower Defense.</p>

    <p>Arceus can run quite a few options in the last slot. Roar is generally the most useful choice, as allows Arceus to phaze away the opponent's physical attackers after they have been neutralized by Will-O-Wisp or Reflect, while spreading entry hazard damage around the opponent's team. Ice Beam gives Arceus a way to kill off the likes of Groudon, Zekrom, Rayquaza, and Garchomp more quickly, and is a useful move in general as a lot of Pokemon in the Uber metagame are weak to Ice-type attacks. Lastly, Perish Song provides a way to force switches while stopping last-Pokemon stat boosters such as Calm Mind Kyogre and Bulk Up Dialga from completely laying waste to your team.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EVs allow Arceus to take physical hits as well as it possibly can. An alternate EV spread of 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe with a Jolly nature allows Arceus to capitalize on its superb base 120 Speed stat. By outspeeding most other physical attackers, such as Terrakion and Garchomp, Arceus can cripple them with Will-O-Wisp or set up Reflect before they can land an attack. However, this change diminishes Arceus's ability to actually switch in on physical hits. If Ice Beam is being used, it is recommended to switch Return to Judgment and run an Bold (or Timid) nature so as to not gimp its power.</p>

    <p>Arceus's offensive movepool is enormous and it can easily run another attack to gain coverage on whatever you need to hit. Flamethrower stops Ferrothorn and Forretress from using Arceus as setup fodder. Earthquake is also an unexpected move on a defensive Arceus. Its main use is to shatter Heatran into a million tiny pieces, who otherwise walls this set completely. It also knocks around Excadrill and Dialga for good damage. Although it doesn't fit into the offensive move category, Refresh can help keep Arceus free of Toxic, which would ruin its walling capabilities.</p>

    <p>Although this set is quite difficult to take down, it can't wall everything. Fighting-types equipped with Guts, such as Heracross, can actually have their Attack boosted by Will-O-Wisp and easily OHKO Arceus with a powered-up Close Combat. Fighting Arceus doesn't care about Will-O-Wisp or Reflect, and can set up on Normal Arceus with Calm Mind before striking it down with a mighty STAB Judgment. Fire-types such as Ho-Oh, Reshiram, and Heatran don't care about most of this set's attacks, and can overpower Arceus with their sun-fueled incendiary strikes. Arceus also struggles to fight off extremely strong special attackers such as Kyogre. Giratina packs an immunity to Arceus's lone weakness to Fighting-type attacks and has the bulk to handle hits from most Fighting-type Pokemon, as well as Ho-Oh. Palkia can easily switch in on Kyogre courtesy of its quadruple resistance to Water-type attacks, and fry the bloated fish with Thunder. Palkia can also come in on Reshiram's Blue Flare fairly well and rip it in half with Spacial Rend. Kyogre has no fear of Heatran and can come in on it all day, and its high Special Defense lets it function as a shaky answer to Reshiram. Finally, Forretress is an excellent partner thanks to Rapid Spin and immunity to Toxic. Arceus hates being worn down by entry hazards and absolutely loathes being poisoned, so pairing Forretress with this Arceus would be a wise choice.</p>

    <p>If Arceus is running Will-O-Wisp, any user of Calm Mind, such as Kyogre, Latios, Latias, Mewtwo, or Giratina, is an excellent partner. With the opponent's powerful physical attackers incapable of breaking them, these users of Calm Mind can easily set up without fear as the Special Defense boosts cushion the damage dealt from special attacks, making them extremely difficult to halt.</p>

    PROPOSED CHANGES

    Shift 16 Defense Evs into Speed for max Speed neutral base 90s
    AC mention of ExtremeSpeed, use of Judgement + Ice Beam with a Bold nature.

    Checks and Counters
    Rewording Ho-Oh (I know Ho-Oh walls Arceus but good luck killing Arceus not in sun.)
    Blaziken
    Victini
    Heatran
    Fire Arceus
    Heracross
    Xatu
    Fighting Arceus
    Boosting special attackers if Arceus is not using Roar.



    [Other Options]

    <p>Arceus's excellent bulk and Speed stat lend it to abusing Calm Mind well. Although its coverage is much worse than the other Arceus formes, Normal Arceus is capable of holding Leftovers, which bolsters its survivability quite a bit. Normal Arceus can also take advantage of Choice Band to give it a sizable Attack boost, making it a good revenge killer with ExtremeSpeed. However, Arceus doesn't get any notable KOs by using Choice Band, and Swords Dance makes it much more of an offensive threat, so the Extreme Killer set is usually better. Light Screen has some use on the Wallceus set to boost Arceus's Special Defense. Thunder can be used on the Extreme Killer set to 2HKO Skarmory in the rain. The potential paralysis can hamper Lugia as well. Arceus can attempt to run a mixed set with Work Up, but the other Arceus formes generally do that more effectively as they have STAB moves with better coverage. Finally, Safeguard can be used on the Extreme Killer set to stop physical walls from using Will-O-Wisp on Normal Arceus, a common way to stop it, but it limits type coverage.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>The Extreme Killer set is best handled by another bulky Arceus with Will-O-Wisp. A burned Arceus poses no threat, and the defensive Arceus can simply Roar away the boosts the Extreme Killer has gotten. Fighting Arceus is particularly good at this as it can also smack Normal Arceus with a powerful, super effective STAB Judgment. Lugia can also set up Reflect and stall out Arceus's ExtremeSpeed with help from Pressure. Toxic and Whirlwind will stop Arceus from trying to set up further. If Arceus has Shadow Force, Lugia can simply set up Reflect before it gets hit to lessen the damage taken. Giratina can survive anything except a boosted Shadow Force from Normal Arceus, and cripple it with Will-O-Wisp. If it lacks Overheat, Skarmory can handle anything Arceus throws at it and set up Spikes in its face before blowing it away with Whirlwind. Defensive Groudon can also handle a hit or two and repel Normal Arceus's assault with Dragon Tail. Choice Scarf Terrakion and Dialga can also survive a boosted ExtremeSpeed and do massive damage to Arceus with Close Combat or Draco Meteor.</p>

    <p>The Wallceus set is best handled by a Fighting-type with Guts such as Heracross, as they get an Attack raise from Will-O-Wisp thanks to their abilities, and will quickly pulverize Arceus with a mighty STAB Fighting-type attack. Heatran, Ho-Oh, and Reshiram also fear nothing from Will-O-Wisp, and easily roast Arceus to a crisp with their powerful STAB Fire-type attacks. Strong special attackers such as Kyogre and Mewtwo are pesky in general as Arceus is generally built to take physical assaults.</p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>While Arceus does not receive a Dream World ability, there is one significant Pokemon that Normal Arceus is both helped and hurt by: Shadow Tag Chandelure. With Shadow Tag and powerful STAB Fire- and Ghost-type attacks, it can spell the doom of many of the Extreme Killer's counters, such as Lugia, Giratina, and Skarmory. Chandelure is also immune to Normal Arceus's only weakness—Fighting-type moves. However, Normal Arceus itself is also afraid of opposing Chandelure, as Shadow Tag and a quick sun-fueled Overheat can spell its doom. In the Dream World environment, you will have to play with Normal Arceus more carefully to avoid Chandelure frying it alive.</p>
  2. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Alright, my comments:

    ExtremeKiller:
    - Leave the EVs for now. There are so many different spreads that it can run and it probably warrants a discussion that involves all of us. I personally prefer just a straight 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Jolly @ Life Orb set, since it turns a lot of its checks (WoW Rock/Steel/Ghost Arceuses) into 50% speed-ties, 37.5% success rate if you consider WoW's accuracy. Outspeeding CB and LO Terrakion is another huge plus. I know a lot of others prefer bulky > fast and they have good reasons for doing so, but max Speed Jolly is what I prefer.
    - Items: Silk Scarf / Life Orb / Lum Berry if we're sticking with the current spread, IMO. While yes, recoil kind of sucks with LO, the extra power on your coverage moves can really help. EQ on the switch easily OHKOs Terrakion, while you fail without it (yea, you can just pick it off with ExtremeSpeed, but OHKOing it feels better, doesn't it?). LO also allows you a 2HKO on Giratina at +2 after SR, while they have to juggle with that 75% accurate Will-O-Wisp. I've used Lum Berry and I like it too, but it really lacks power sometimes, especially when I've had instances where I missed an OHKO on Mewtwo. That kind of sealed the deal for me.
    EV spreads that would work:
    - Current one 88 HP / 252 SpA / 168 Spe Adamant - Outspeeds Rayquaza, fastest user of ExtremeSpeed that Arceus can outspeed. (I)
    - 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly = This one NEEDS Life Orb, since Jolly is lacking power otherwise - Max Speed and tying with other Arceus forms (II)
    - 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe Jolly = Again, needs LO - Outspeeds Terrakion (III)
    - 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe Adamant - Your spread, outspeeds neutral base 90s, capitalises on bulk (IV)
    - 252 HP / 132 Atk / 124 Spe Adamant - Firecape's spread in Burn All, capitalises on bulk and being more of an end-game Pokemon. (V)

    Personally, I'm preferring II > I > IV > III > V at the moment. These should all be mentioned in AC, though, so you should probably dedicate a whole paragraph to the different spreads ExtremeKiller can use.

    - Mention Leftovers in AC, I have seen sets that use Wallceus style spreads in the ExtremeKiller set with Leftovers, but I don't like them that much, although Leftovers is a nice item to use sometimes.
    - Yeah, chuck Shadow Force in AC. It's too easy to play around.

    Wallceus:
    - Yes, change the EV spread to the one with 16 Speed. I laugh every time my Lucario outspeeds and OHKOs a Wallceus with +2 Close Combat.
    - Mention ExtremeSpeed somewhere in there (AC, can go over Return), since even without investment, STAB ExtremeSpeed coming off 276 Attack can still pick off some weakened Pokemon like 30% Mewtwo or something like that, and this can still be useful.
    - If you're slashing Ice Beam in the 4th slot, then it's probably good to slash Judgement in next to Return, since it is recommended that Judgement / Ice Beam go as a pair.
    - I'd personally give Stone Edge a mention, since you can take Ho-oh with it, and that is always nice. It can still do a stack to Rayquaza.

    Other Options:
    - Since it doesn't look like Specs is going to get its own set, make a mention of it in OO.

    Counters:
    In order IMO for ExtremeKiller:
    - Skarmory should be #1, IMO. Toxic / Spikes / Whirlwind shut down Arceus completely, even if it's a last mon. Giratina should be next, then Lugia, Wallceus, Ghost Arceus with WoW and Groudon.
    - Rock and Steel Arceus with WoW can also check it nicely, but WoW missing = fucked.
    - Fighting Arceus
    - Forretress can use Toxic and not get killed in a matter of seconds, but is ultimately losing. Ferrothorn's similar, although it just fails against Brick Break variants.
    - Physically defensive Giratina-O
    - Checks (Terrakion, Scarf Dialga). Add Omastar and Kabutops in the rain as well (Omastar can OHKO less bulky versions and Kabutops can pick off weakened ones). CB Scizor can take a non-LO boosted +2 EQ and do a truckload with Superpower, but needs prior damage if you want to actually OHKO it. Brick Break variants don't like taking on CB Metagross, no matter how rare that thing is. Scarf Heatran can do a bucketload with Overheat in the sun, although like CB Scizor, you need prior damage to OHKO.
    For Wallceus:
    - Add Victini to that list
  3. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    Regarding EV spreads, I'd like some input from some other QC members before making a decision. I do see the points you are making, but

    "EQ on the switch easily OHKOs Terrakion, while you fail without it (yea, you can just pick it off with ExtremeSpeed, but OHKOing it feels better, doesn't it?)."

    is really pointless, because although it 'feels better' it doesn't really amount to anything when I can really just pick it off with ExtremeSpeed the following turn.

    I really don't see much value in outspeeding Rayquaza as its ExtremeSpeed does 24-29%, this is 252 Atk, Life Orb, Jolly Rayquaza. There are even weaker variants that use only 40 Attack EVs.

    Firecape's spread seems really redundant to me. If you want to capitalize on bulk then I'd recommend 252 HP / 240 Atk / 16 Spe, there really is no point to outspeeding positive natured base 90s when you want to go for 'bulk'; if anything, I'd invest in some Special Defense over Attack if you're aiming for an endgame bulky sweeper who aims to accrue multiple boosts. At the moment this spread is practically identical to mine, also if you're going to use this kind of spread I'd recommend Recover, Swords Dance, ExtremeSpeed, Shadow Claw.

    I can agree with your item choice slashes.

    For Wallceus

    Sure @ ExtremeSpeed mention.

    Sure @ Ice Beam, but that means we should slash Bold in nature as well.

    For OO

    I'll await input on this, although I am leaning towards at least making Specs an OO mention, I guess. I'll also mention Shadow Force + Power Herb here.

    Checks and Counters Section

    Yeah, I should have read this actually, it does need a big overhaul. Agreed that outside of a silly Substitute last Pokemon situation Skarmory will win almost 100% of the time. Except sun-boosted Overheat which has a 68.75% chance to OHKO without SR. However, neutral weather Overheat has no chance at OHKOing Skarmory, even with SR.
    Rock, Steel, Ghost, and Normal Arceus with WoW should all be mentioned as good checks, especially with a fast spread (and a bulky spread in Normal Arceus's case).
    Fighting Arceus doesn't take +2 ExtremeSpeed that well. In fact it's a clean 2HKO on 252/0 spreads, and an unboosted 0 Special Attack Judgment will only 2HKO Normal Arceus in return; so if Fighting Arceus switches in on Swords Dance it will lose unless it's carrying WoW and Recover, and WoW is very uncommon on Fighting Arceus.

    I don't know why Lugia is mentioned as what I believe to be an implied solid counter. 252/176 Bold / Impish Lugia takes 51-60% from +2 Life Orb Shadow Claw and all it can do is set up Reflect to die next turn, Toxic to again, die next turn, attempt to Roost stall, which is a terrible idea, or just Whirlwind Arceus out. But really the damage it takes from Shadow Claw is too great to consider it to be a solid check or counter. It doesn't even have WoW! Even the AC speedy spread with Reflect (252 Hp / 16 Def / 240 Spe, Jolly) takes 54-64% from +2 ExtremeSpeed, an almost 100% chance to OHKO after Reflect goes down the following turn and Arceus uses Shadow Claw. There's probably a less fast spread with reflect that can outspeed Arceus and throw up Reflect before Shadow Claw and have enough Defence to roost off the damage the following turn but it isn't mentioned in the Lugia analysis so the point is moot. Really Lugia is in a situation where the best it can do is switch in, take a boosted hit, phaze it out and hope that what it phazes in isn't threatening.

    Groudon is in a situation in which it can't really do much back outside of using Roar, Thunder Wave, or Toxic. If it attempts to go toe-to-toe with Earthquake it will lose almost 100% of them time (barring crits) as Life Orb +2 ExtremeSpeed is a solid 3HKO, even factoring in Leftovers, and Earthquake can only 3HKO in return (Groudon will lose because it is outsped, obviously). Admittedly, it does have a chance against Silk Scarf, which is a 3-4HKO, so if it 4HKOs Groudon will kill it first. However, this requires Groudon to be in perfect condition, and have favourable damage rolls. Really the best Groudon can do is phaze it out. It should be relegated to a lesser mention.

    Forretress can use Toxic + Pain Split and it will win if it's using a 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SpD spread with an Impish nature, provided SR is off the field. +2 Life Orb Earthquake will max out at 53%, meaning it will never 2HKO at +2. Forretress can switch in on Swords Dance, use Toxic, take 53% --> Leftovers, be at roughly 53% again (very, very rare that two max damage rolls will happen), taken the next Earthquake, and use Pain Split. After taking two turns of Life Orb Damage and one turn of Toxic Damage Arceus will be at 74%, i.e. 326 HP. Pain Split will get Forretress' HP up to 164 assuming it was on 1 HP and leftovers will then heal it so it's outside of Earthquake's KO range. Arceus will then be at roughly 37% (if Forretress had 1 HP), we can round up to 40% to be more allowing of damage rolls; it will then take turn 2 poison damage and be at 28%, meaning that next round Toxic and Life Orb recoil will finish it off.

    Obviously this situation makes a lot of assumptions but it does show that Forretress can stand up to even Life Orb Adamant Arceus, and will have an easier time with Jolly and Silk Scarf versions.

    Physically defensive Giratina-O is a ~very~ shaky check, as it needs 252 Defense EVs (0 HP) to survive a Life Orb Shadow Claw after Stealth Rock. It can then WoW Arceus, but will just die next turn. I don't know if it's worth a mention.

    IMO the order of Checks and Counters should be

    1. Skarmory
    2. Giratina
    3. Wall Arceus
    4. Ghost Arceus, Rock, and Steel Arceus with WoW

    these are the most solid 'counters'. I am fine with everything else being mentioned in the Checks section or having a brief line or two as a shakier counter.

    Wallceus

    Another thing, I would like some input of at least an AC mention of Earthquake, destroys Heatran, Victini, Blaziken looking to switch in on WoW.

    Checks and Counters needs an update, yes.

    Jolly CB Victini has to be careful, it has an almost 100% chance of being 2HKOed by 0 Attack Return after Stealth Rock, and cannot ever return the OHKO to Arceus with V-Create, even in the sun.

    Life Orb Blaziken is in the same boat, so both can be relegated to a lesser mention.

    Going to mention Fire Arceus (lol) with Recover it can take everything and is immune to WoW, only really dislikes being Roared out I guess.

    Mention of Xatu, without Stealth Rock it can avoid the OHKO 100% of the time from Return, bounces back WoW and Roar, can set up Dual Screens and with Toxic will eventually win.

    Ho-Oh actually can't 2HKO Arceus, even in the sun, provided it is using Leftovers. In neutral or rainy weather Arceus safely walls Ho-Oh, so I think a rewording of its entry in the Checks and Counters section is in order.

    Here Fighting Arceus deserves a mention, as it doesn't care that much about WoW and Judgment is a solid 2HKO unboosted.

    Mention of Terrakion if it can come in on anything but WoW will 2HKO Arceus with Close Combat.

    Remove mention of Heracross, no one really uses it anymore - although it does have an Ubers analysis strangely enough........ (it's use is too niche imo...)

    A whole slew of boosting special sweepers like CM Arceus (especially those with Substitute or Refresh) crop up as being sure fire switch ins if Roar is not used.
  4. alex 67

    alex 67

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    I've also found Lugia to be an unreliable check tbh. Stealth Rock, Shadow Claw and ExtremeSpeed are quite threatening to it. Ferrothorn should probably be getting a little more mention since it annoys Arceus greatly with Leech Seed and Iron Barbs. Arceus is probably at its most threatening with the spread on site and Silk Scarf IMO. Shadow Force is practically never used so it should definitely be de-slashed. Also wallceus may avoid the ko with Leftovers, however, Sacred Fire's burn chance will quickly step in and negate Leftovers and do more besides. Also btw Giratina's standard spread is 252 hp and 252 def not 0 hp, so it is in fact a relatively reliable check ignoring Will-O-Wisp misses and crit bullshit of course.
  5. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    We're talking about Giratina-O (who normally doesn't run much bulk at all); Ho-Oh is safely walled in NEUTRAL weather, Arceus can avoid the 2HKO in SUNNY weather, but will eventually fall due to burn in sun. Yes, Ferrothorn is really irritating even for Brick Break versions.

    Take your time to read next time, thanks.
  6. alex 67

    alex 67

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    I took my time to read, I just missed the fact that Giratina-O is even getting near a mention as a check.
    That is more or less, exactly what I said, and I wouldn't be surprised if Arceus actually lost one on one in neutral weather if it had used Recover a few times earlier in the battle since Sacred Fire will quickly burn Arceus making Arceus completely unable to retaliate. Brave Bird will then do about 30%-36% a turn meaning with burn, Arceus may very well have to recover each turn against Brave Bird while Ho-Oh also has the chance for a crit on its side.
  7. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    You forget that Brave Bird will deal recoil to Ho-Oh, meaning that it too will have to recover eventually, and Arceus can use that turn to roar it out. Also, this is pretty much besides that point as all I'm saying that the way the analysis words is that Ho-Oh is a surefire switch in to wallceus and can 'burn it to a crisp' or something, which is blatantly false if Arceus can recover stall it in most situations.

    'I took my time to read,' I just didn't read something. Way to contradict yourself within the same sentence. If you took your time to read you wouldn't miss that.

    Anyway, none of your points really hold any merit, except for the Ferrothorn mention, which will go in.
  8. trickroom

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    EQ not OHKOing Terrakion can be a big deal in certain matches. For example, if you have your Dragon Dance Rayquaza and Arceus, a weakened Terrakion can still revenge kill your Rayquaza later in the game. You Earthquaked Terrakion on the switch, it can survive so it can switch out to something else to take the oncoming ExtremeSpeed. LO EQ OHKOes Terrakion in one hit especially if the opponent mispredicts, leaving no chance for the revenge killer. Even at low healths, a revenge killer can still function well.

    What if your Arceus is weakened say by a Dialga's LO Draco Meteor? Rayquaza can pick you off next turn if you are slower. This might not seem much, but sometimes these situations can be game deciding. If you outspeed Rayquaza, you might probably sweep your opponent. Also, Jibaku suggested it first so he can explain this better.

    The point of 307 Speed is to hit things like Timid Specs Reshiram with Earthquake before you managed to set up. Earthquake does a lot more to Reshiram and it will kill it after SR and LO boost. Also 307 Speed allows you to outspeed the occasional Jolly Lucario, Adamant/Mild Rayquaza and +Speed nature Giratina-O. You will usually just ExtremeSpeed Rayquaza anyway but slower than it means you might fail to revenge kill a weakened SD Rayquaza or Rayquaza might pick you off if Arceus is weakened to almost death range. I am agreeing with shrang on maxing out Arceus's Speed for LO Jolly variants.

    I personally don't like Specs Arceus so OO mention will suffice. +2 Shadow Force + Power Herb doesn't even OHKO Giratina, so I don't see the point of using it.

    For counters,

    Skarmory is easily the best counter there is. Overheat with LO will 2HKO it at worst though outside of rain.

    Rock and Steel Arceus loses if Normal Arceus wins the Speed tie. There are still Jolly max Speed Extremekillers. +2 LO Earthquake will OHKO both Rock and Steel Arceus. Also a burned Normal Arceus can set up to +4 before you kill it and still 2HKO Rock or Steel Arceus. Rock and Steel Arceus can't really damage Normal Arceus significantly. Even if Rock/Steel Arceus does somehow survived the Earthquake, the following ExtremeSpeed will pick it off. Also Ghost Arceus as a better check compared to Rock or Steel, as it is immune to ExtremeSpeed, has Will-O-Wisp and weak to Shadow Claw is better than being weak to Earthquake in this scenario.

    Fighting Arceus fails to OHKO Normal Arceus but it can with max Special Attack, only with Modest. Timid can OHKO Normal Arceus only after Stealth Rock dealing 83.5% - 98.2%, that's an OHKO after SR and LO recoil. Mention Offensive Fighting Arceus as a check. Fightceus happens to resist SR so it is not OHKOed even by +2 LO ExtremeSpeed. All assuming no HP EV Arceus.

    I think Lugia is a great check to Normal Arceus. It might not be a 100% counter but Lugia is in general a major roadblock to Arceus's sweeping. Lugia is never 2HKOed if it sets up Reflect the turn it is attacked. Lugia will only die if Stealth Rock is up. Also you are assuming Arceus is carrying Life Orb, Silk Scarf ones obvious does a lot less, 48.1% - 56.7% if Adamant at +2. Without Life Orb Lugia will just set up Reflect and Roost off the damage. 81% as it switches in after SR, so it cannot be 2HKOed factoring in Reflect reducing damage the next turn. Toxic ends Arceus's life when it can no longer be phazed. In the wose case ( SR is out and Arceus is LO Adamant), Lugia can still phaze out Arceus. Lugia is also pretty fast, it has plenty of situations where it can Roost of the damage so it is not totally useless after phazing. Weakness to SR is what makes Lugia less effective in handling Arceus. However, if you compare this to Rock or Steel Arceus, they are OHKOed by a +2 LO Jolly Earthquake.

    Comparing Reflect with Will-O-Wisp, Reflect is 100% accurate, so it never misses. Lugia can generally set up Reflect, Roost off the damage, then Toxic Arceus or phaze.

    Arceus might just miss with Will-O-Wisp and end up dying. Lum Berry ExtremeKiller also destroys Rock or Steel Arceus easily as a +2 Earthquake followed by ExtremeSpeed = a dead Rock/Steel Arceus.

    Groudon is only a check as it has no recovery but it is a great one especially when paired with hazards. Groudon's Dragon Tail is a good at wearing out Arceus with entry hazards (Toxic Spikes is the best in this case) on the field. CB Groudon has a chance to OHKO Arceus with Hammer Arm while easily surviving +2 ExtremeSpeed.

    Forretresss is a fine check but it rarely carries both Toxic and Pain Split. Also, Forretress takes little damage from Brick Break. Physically defensive Ferrothorn can survive even +2 LO Brick Break so it is too a great check. Impish Ferrothorn still has use to stop things like SD Groudon without Fire Punch and possibly SD Rock/Ground Arceus.

    Wall Arceus takes more damage from Brick Break than Lugia takes from Shadow Claw. If Will-O-Wisp misses you are screwed or if Extremekiller Arceus carries Lum Berry. Lugia's Reflect never misses, so it actually stops Extremekiller Arceus just as well.

    Earthquake is mentioned in the Arceus analysis on site. I remembered telling Fireburn to put that and he put EQ in.

    I disagree with this. Ho-Oh doesn't need to 2HKO Arceus. It outright walls Arceus not the other way round. Pressure and Roost makes Return useless especially when Arceus can be easily burned. Repeated Brave Birds + burn damage = a dead Arceus in the end because Brave Bird has more pp than Recover. Also, there always a critical hit chance. Leftovers means Ho-Oh isn't taking much recoil especially when Ho-Oh's HP stat is actually almost as high as Arceus. Arceus can only Roar Ho-Oh out and do nothing in return, you cannot PP stall it either because Ho-Oh has pressure. You have to use Toxic to stand a chance in beating Ho-Oh,.

    I will say keep mentions of Heracross. It's not that bad when I used it, also a 85% Mewtwo check since Megahorn OHKOes any Mewtwo variant on site. It is too niche doesn't mean it is useless, also things like Shedinja outright sucks but it counters Kyogre perfectly and is mentioned in the Kyogre analysis.

    Agree with all this. Dialga can only revenge a weakened Arceus though as even after SR, Arceus can survive Draco Meteor. Heatran's Overheat is actually stronger than Dialga's Draco Meteor.

    For Giratina-O, it can still shrug off one hit with a bulkier spread, burn or Dragon Tail Arceus out. +2 Shadow Claw never OHKOes if Arceus lacks Life Orb. Giratina-O should not be considered a counter though because it has no recovery at all.

    Darkrai can easily sleep WallArceus and set up on it. +2 Focus Blast OHKOes.
  9. shrang

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    Just saying, Fighting Arceus can OHKO after SR with Modest and max Special Attack, and can take a +2 Silk Scarf ExtremeSpeed if it's >86% (one SR switch-in).
  10. Chou Toshio

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    Can I say I actually really hate all the extremely corny arceus overviews that don't actually tell me anything?

    The overview is one of the most useful parts of the analysis for people breaking into a metagame. All the arceus overviews are barely informative and mostly annoying.
  11. gookie

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    @ tricrkroom I'll go through what you said and then reply in this post, but I think we're close to ironing out most of what needs to be changed. Mainly noted are your points of Steel / Rock Arceus.

    @ Chou Toshio I don't know why the Arceus overviews insist only being 'flavour' as it were, I'm not opposed to supplementing them with actual facts, or changing them entirely. If anyone who has any idea regarding this issue please step in and say something.
  12. barry4ever

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    i'm going to try to reply to pretty much everything I'd like to add to so its going to be a pretty longass post.

    ExtremeKiller

    About EV spreads

    Arceus belongs to the select category of Pokemon who can effectively run multiple EV spreads well. I'm going to say that personally I tend to favour bulky Arceus since Arceus's bulk is what makes it different from myriad other attackers. So, I agree that 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe with an Adamant nature should be the spread which is listed as the main. The bulk is excellent and you can pretty much live every hit in the game except obscenely strong attacks like CB Terrakion Close Combat. About the other spread which should be listed specifically:

    - 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly - Most offensive spread, makes other Arceus's juggle with Will-O-Wisp and screws over any other slower Arceus's and outspeeds LO Terrakion - Needs Life Orb since with Silk Scarf the other non STAB moves as weak.

    -Other Spreads: The rest of the spreads aim at hitting certain speed benchmarks which actually depend on the team and what its weak to as well as personal preference. As a result, I think that instead of specifically mentioning each of those spreads, a separate paragraph should be made in AC which mentions the various speed benchmarks Arceus can hit and what it outspeeds. Attack should be maxed out and leftover EVs should be dumped into HP to increase overall survivability. Firecape's Barn All spread should be given a small mention as you sacrifice some attack for more bulk and speed.

    Although, the speed was pretty much just extra speed but when I tried this spread, it did help in certain situations against base 90s such as Dialga and Reshiram (like trickroom mentioned). Although, it is very very situational and should really be given a small mention. But it certainly deserves a mention.

    Items: Going to agree with Shrang about Silk Scarf / Life Orb / Lum Berry. You definitely need to explain that the item Arceus is using depends on its EV spread and the role in which it is being used in the team. Mention Leftovers in AC but couple it with Firecape's spread, to be used when Arceus is not running a lot of Attack EVs anyway otherwise the drop in power is significant. Power Herb is a one time use item which still doesnt kill Giratina one shot with Shadow Force and Giratina can then rest off the damage. Maybe an OO mention.

    Moves: Shadow Force to be relegated to AC.


    Wallceus

    EVs: Change it to outrun neutral base 90s with 16 Speed. 4 SpD is useless anyway.

    Moves: About ExtremeSpeed, definitely in AC since it has low PP and with Pressure mons like Dialga, Lugia, Giratina about you wont even be able to use it all 8 times. ExtremeSpeed is also weaker by 22 bp as compared to return so you're doing less damage. Mention that if you're running Ice Beam, Ho-Oh can easily screw you over since Ice Beam does practically nothing as does Judgment. Though, you're less crippled by a burn it will still hurt you. Also probably change the fourth slot to Roar / Perish Song / Ice Beam imo, Arceus definitely doesn't need Ice Beam all that much as Groudon and Zekrom are still going down while stuff like Giratina dont really care. Either make it last or remove it since Roar / Perish Song is easily more useful. Personally, I think Ice Beam should be relegated to AC. Earthquake

    OO

    Mention Specs in OO since its not getting a set of its own. Power Herb may get a small mention. Maybe mention a Dual Screens set. I tried it with SS Cloyster and while it wasn't stellar it was decent. I just went ahead with 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 Spe but there are probably more efficient spreads. Light Clay or Lefties both work as an item.

    Checks and Counters

    ExtremeKiller

    -Skarmory should definitely be the number one check since it can take on any Arceus even those with Overheat (not sun). Mention that in this case Toxic is definitely necessary otherwise Arceus will just get to +6 and kill you anyway.
    Simple Roost and Whirlwind will stop Arceus.

    -Giratina comes next as it can use WoW to cripple Arceus and phaze it out with Dragon Tail. Any damage can be rested off easily.

    -Wallceus and Ghost Arceus with Will-O-Wisp come up next thanks with Lugia and then Groudon. I know about the fact that you think Lugia isn't a counter to Arceus and while its not as solid a counter as Skarmory is it definitely gets damn close to the term counter. Lugia can easily take a hit and whirlwind out Arceus. It can then grab a roost to heal off the damage it had incurred. But defnitely, Lugia is not a 100% counter but it isn't merely a check either. Groudon definitely comes last as all it can do is phaze out Arceus but it takes a major hit nevertheless. Without reliable recovery, its not a very good check

    -Rock / Steel Arceus with Will-O-Wisp and a FAST spread are good checks to Arceus although they will lose if Arceus is running Jolly 252 Atk / 252 Spe LO and wins the speed tie or WoW misses. But since, the bulky Arceus is the more popular variant they are all good. Groudon definitely comes last as all it can do is phaze out Arceus but it takes a major hit nevertheless. Without reliable recovery, its not a very good check

    -About Forretress, running Pain Split + Toxic leaves room only for Rapid Spin + only one hazard. Pain Split Forry is also very rare but Forretress does check Arceus since Toxic will cripple it and will eventually take it down.

    -Dont mention Giratina-O as a counter. Its can take a +2 Shadow Claw with some investment and burn Arceus. However, it is ~super~ shaky and should only be used in a pinch and never else. Just give it the briefest mention possible.

    Wallceus Checks and Counters

    Ho-Oh definitely walls this as Trickroom said and can beat it. Sacred Fire burn will cripple Arceus and it can be pressure stalled out. However, Ho-Oh will certainly hate being Roared out if Stealth Rock is on the field. Adamant LO Blaziken does 82.4% - 97.3% with Hi Jump Kick so its damn close to a OHKO with some residual damage. Rest is fine.

    About the overview, this one definitely needs another paragraph imo describing what it does but i'm neutral on the subject on the whole.
  13. alex 67

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    Well it seems your not taking your time to read my post considering I clearly said one on one when referring to Wallceus vs Ho-Oh. Anyway Ho-Oh clearly wins unless Arceus manages to hit it with Return at low HP. It obviously doesn't enjoy getting Roared and eating more Stealth Rock but Arceus doesn't enjoy getting burned either. I do agree it doesn't have an efficient way to finish it off, but it does wall it so "burning it to a crisp" should be more like "stops it in its tracks". Anyway Forretress with Pain Split and Toxic is a decent check to Extremekiller, and an excellent counter to Wallceus since it doesn't overly mind getting burned, and can really do whatever it wants so it definitely deserves mention in Checks and Counters.
  14. gookie

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    I never implied it was ExtremeKiller vs Ho-Oh, nor did I say that Arceus beats it. I am just pointing out that the analysis' wording was strange. I've already mentioned Forretress with Pain Split and Toxic in depth. General hazard layers have an easy time against Wallceus, since it doesn't have taunt. I will add that in.

    I say you don't not read because you make these baseless points

    Also wallceus may avoid the ko with Leftovers, however, Sacred Fire's burn chance will quickly step in and negate Leftovers and do more besides

    without clarification on weather or calculations

    took my time to read, I just missed the fact that Giratina-O is even getting near a mention as a check.

    lol

    Arceus can avoid the 2HKO in SUNNY weather, but will eventually fall due to burn in sun.
    That is more or less, exactly what I said, and I wouldn't be surprised if Arceus actually lost one on one in neutral weather if it had used Recover a few times earlier in the battle since Sacred Fire will quickly burn Arceus making Arceus completely unable to retaliate. Brave Bird will then do about 30%-36% a turn meaning with burn, Arceus may very well have to recover each turn against Brave Bird while Ho-Oh also has the chance for a crit on its side.


    you neglected to mention any sort of weather in the post prior to this so it is NOT exactly, nor even more or less exactly, what you said. When weather is so important in seeing whether or not Arceus can stand up to Ho-Oh it is especially important that you mention it.

    Well it seems your not taking your time to read my post considering I clearly said one on one when referring to Wallceus vs Ho-Oh.

    yeah as I said earlier I never even came close to saying, implicitly, explicitly, or otherwise anything remotely close to this. I never deviated from the Wallceus vs. Ho-Oh situation, nor have I ever even mentioned an ExtremeKiller vs Ho-Oh situation.

    THERE IS NO NEED TO POST IN THIS THREAD ANY FURTHER UNLESS YOU HAVE SOMETHING SIGNIFICANT TO ADD. HOPEFULLY THIS POST HAS CLEARED ANY MISCONCEPTIONS REGARDING HO-OH VS ARCEUS IN RAIN, SUN, AND WEATHERLESS CONDITIONS; ALSO GENERAL READING COMPREHENSION, THANK YOU.
  15. gookie

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    Updated OP with people's changes; let me know if I missed anything, otherwise this is ready for

    QC APPROVED 1/3
  16. barry4ever

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    This looks good and all set to get its own place on site. The only change I really have is that fourth moveslot slashes should be changed to Roar / Perish Song / Ice Beam since Roar and Perish Song have a lot of utility. Ice Beam is only really useful if you really want a solid check to Rayquaza and to a lesser extent, have an easier time taking down Groudon.

    QC Approved 2/3
  17. shrang

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    I think barry and I both agreed that instead of different spreads, it is better just to have a paragraph on various Speed benchmarks, and just saying, put 252 in Attack, X in Speed to outspeed Pokemon Y, and the rest go into HP.

    Other than that, consider this stamped:

    QC APPROVED 3/3
  18. gookie

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    I can agree to both of those, will get this written soon.

    One more thing that I forgot - what should I do about the overview, personally I think adding some more content about what Arceus can actually do would be nice.
  19. sammao

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    Should Hippowdon get a mention as a check for ExtremeKiller?
  20. Groombridge

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    Agreeing with Chou Toshio.


    I've nothing to add to the writeup, but I thought I'd pipe up here. The purple prose overviews add absolutely nothing to the analysis; in fact, they get in the way of something useful appearing there. Extremekiller Arceus is a tremendous threat in Ubers, and the overview needs to at least mention this! Other pokemon have their primary roles laid out here (Ferrothorn is a wall/supporter, Conkeldurr is a sweeper etc.), so Normal Arceus should too. Really, all Arceus formes need proper overviews in general to differentiate them.


    Nothing else gets an overview with in-game flavour. Arceus might be the Alpha Pokemon, but competitively, who cares? Why does 720 BST mean it gets something out of a fanfic for an overview?


    And finally, the way these 'overviews' are written is just awful. Full of 50-point words and faux-high register syntax, but largely content-free apart from 'Arceus is teh best'. Too many of the various formes' overviews talk about 'divine wrath' and what have you, and also capitalise His pronoun because He is so mighty, and have you read My Arceus-water/Arceus-fire slashfics? 'Life shall become but an evanescent wisp'. Write goth poetry by all means, but leave it out of anywhere where I might read it, cheers.


    I don't really even play Ubers, it's just that overwrought and pretentious prose really gets on my nerves. Pretty much any descriptive text would be better that what's up at the moment: 'Arceus-normal is a versatile threat, being the only forme able to use multiple items. The Extremekiller set can sweep your team if you aren't careful.'
  21. gookie

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    Okay, I'm going to finally start writing this, but I reckon CB deserves its own set up from an OO mention?
  22. I Am

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    Oh my god, I love you. All this poetic nonsense in every Arceus overview/analysis is ridiculously over the top and, on the whole, pointless.
  23. trickroom

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    I think it should since in the Hippowdon analysis, it is mentioned as a great check to ExtremeKiller Arceus. Unlike Groudon, Hippowdon can easily Slack Off any damage taken as well. Hippowdon's slightly lower Defense than Groudon hardly matters against SD Normal Arceus anyway. Hippowdon's Sand Stream can also wear out non Leftovers Arceus faster.

    I think CB has more use than Choice Specs Arceus. CB ExtremeSpeed is a great way to revenge kill Rayquaza, Darkrai, Shaymin-S and Mewtwo. Outside of CB ExtremeSpeed, Arceus's other moves are not that amazing though but I guess Trick is a good option as well. Last gen, Arceus actually has a CB set on site so I think CB Arceus is viable.

    name: Choice Band
    move 1: ExtremeSpeed
    move 2: Shadow Claw / Swords Dance
    move 3: Earthquake / Brick Break
    move 4: Trick / Overheat
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe

    Same EV spread as ExtremeKiller, Adamant is used for max power, Speed to outspeed Rayquaza who are rising in popularity these days. Rest in HP. 280 Speed variants work for CB as well. Stone Edge can be mentioned to OHKO Ho-Oh and stands a chance at breaking through Lugia. Shadow Force is pretty predicable, and it is not useful at all, especially for a choiced set.
  24. shrang

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    I think you mean Choice Band, not Swords Dance.

    The EVs should be exactly the same as standard Extremekiller Arceus. Also, I think the SD could get a slot (Poppy used in his RMT, as well as Theorymon), as it actually looks kind of cool, you can still sweep when you've Tricked away your CB. It should probably be slashed over Shadow Claw, although that does leave you helpless against Giratina-O.
  25. Jukain

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    I agree with quite a few of the people here that Arceus does not need a flavor Overview. Give it a serious one. Cheers!

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