Arceus-Water (Revamp)


I am the tide and I cannot be turned

QC Checks 3/3 (Minority Suspect, WreckDra, Hack)
GP Checks 2/2 (Rare Poison, The Dutch Plumberjack)

[OVERVIEW]

Water Arceus finds its ways of usage in ORAS tied almost entirely to Primal Groudon, a newcomer to ORAS. Primal Groudon alone has invalidated previously viable sets thanks to immunities to Will-O-Wisp and Water-type Judgment, rendering more offensive mono-attacking sets useless. At the same time, however, Water Arceus's role has adapted around Primal Groudon, and it now sits as the ideal support Arceus of choice thanks to its typing, giving it key resistances to Fire- and Water-type moves that make it relatively easy to fit onto balanced and stall teams alike. Water Arceus's neutrality to Fairy- and Dragon-type moves as well as a resistance to Ice-type moves gives it different advantages over its main competition for a support role, Dragon Arceus. Water Arceus may have only one viable set, but it does its role with varying degrees of effectiveness as both a potential Defogger and a check to top-tier threats such as Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence, and Ho-Oh all in one Pokemon. Water Arceus's effectiveness has brought adaptations from the very Pokemon it checks, however, making its job a little more difficult, with sets such as Swords Dance Primal Groudon and Double-Edge Mega Salamence rising as common sets due to their increased effectiveness against Water Arceus. Water Arceus also has some issues with its moveslots, leaving it unable to perform all its possible roles with just four moves, leading to some team-based moveset choices. Water Arceus is also vulnerable to entry hazards, status moves, and being trapped by Shadow Tag users, all things that the Ubers metagame has plenty of, which can keep Water Arceus's effectiveness down.

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Judgment / Defog
move 2: Ice Beam / Judgment
move 3: Recover
move 4: Toxic
item: Splash Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Choosing the first two moveslots on Water Arceus tends to come down to what the rest of the team requires. The most flexible option is to go with the combination of Judgment and Ice Beam. Judgment gives Water Arceus the ideal effectiveness against Ho-Oh, Ground Arceus, and Klefki, and Ice Beam covers Pokemon such as Mega Salamence and Rayquaza while also being able to get small damage on Primal Groudon if necessary. If Defog is needed somewhere on the team, either Judgment or Ice Beam can be used alongside it, depending on where the team needs the extra support. The combination of Judgment and Defog works best when there are secondary Mega Salamence and Rayquaza answers on the team to make up for the loss of Ice Beam, with examples being Shuca Berry Dialga and Lugia. Ice Beam and Defog make for a more passive combination, as it can be lacking in power against some of Water Arceus's switch-ins such as Steel-types, but it can be effective as a replacement to Dragon Arceus in cases where using Dragon Arceus would give too much of a Mega Diancie weakness, which can show in teams that do not use Bronzong. Defog provides freedom from entry hazards for both sides of the field, which can make using Pokemon such as Ho-Oh much more effective against the opponent, but is not mandatory on this set if a team doesn't require it or already has it elsewhere. Recover, however, is required to ensure Water Arceus stays as healthy as possible throughout a match. Toxic is also mandatory to properly check some Primal Groudon sets, as well as provide pressure against Pokemon such as Ho-Oh.

Set Details
========

Generally, Water Arceus should always be fully invested in HP to maximize bulk as much as possible. Ideally being used as a physically defensive wall, Water Arceus should also be invested in Defense once the amount of Speed it requires to support the team properly is cleared up. The standard option is to go with 16 Speed EVs, and the rest in Defense with a Bold nature. 16 Speed EVs is enough to outspeed neutral-natured base 90 Speed Pokemon, but Water Arceus will fail to be faster than Pokemon such as Jolly Primal Groudon. This is less of a worry, however, as Jolly Primal Groudon sets tend to be tailored specifically to break Water Arceus, meaning no amount of Speed investment will help against it. A secondary option is to use 124 Speed EVs to outspeed positive-natured base 90 Speed Pokemon. This can come in handy against Ho-Oh specifically, as Jolly Ho-Oh can be potentially stalled out with Recover while it takes itself down with Brave Bird recoil. Another option is to use 168 Speed EVs, which allows Water Arceus to outspeed up to positive-natured base 95 Speed Pokemon such as Rayquaza but comes with a considerable loss in Defense investment, which can be a large problem against the Pokemon that Water Arceus is used to check.

Usage Tips
========

Water Arceus is best used as a check to physical attackers such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Salamence, and in most cases, should be switched in against them as a first option. However, there are Primal Groudon sets to keep an eye out for, such as Swords Dance sets from more offensive teams as well as Rest sets on more defensive teams. Swords Dance Primal Groudon will break Water Arceus easily, so the ideal scenario is to get a Toxic on Primal Groudon and play around it using other teammates until Toxic damage racks up and takes it down. Rest Primal Groudon sets result in a stalemate for both sides, as neither Water Arceus nor Primal Groudon can damage each other enough to break the stalemate. Switching out while Primal Groudon is sleeping is generally the best option. Stealth Rock Primal Groudon sets and most Rock Polish sets tend to be safer matchups for Water Arceus, as they do not typically carry Swords Dance. However, Primal Groudon can fit Swords Dance on a Rock Polish set, or even on a Stealth Rock set, meaning the bottom line is to keep a close eye out for what set the enemy Primal Groudon could be using during a match to better assess what Water Arceus's capabilities against it are. Double-Edge Mega Salamence and Adamant Choice Band Ho-Oh sets should also be carefully played around, as with Stealth Rock on your side of the field, Water Arceus's chances against them go down considerably. Keep in mind that a well-played Ho-Oh will aim to burn Water Arceus with Sacred Fire early on and then use the burn damage to its advantage and potentially break Water Arceus later on in the match. Spreading Toxic against the enemy team can punish switches and provide pressure on the opponent, but some Pokemon such as Mega Salamence and Xerneas may be better off paralyzed. This is because Mega Salamence commonly runs Facade, and it is much more difficult to stop if it cannot be paralyzed, as it has 140-Base Power STAB Facades to throw around. Xerneas falls under a similar line of thinking, as Geomancy Xerneas can also be much harder to stop for some teams if it cannot be paralyzed by checks such as Klefki. Play carefully around Mega Gengar, as it can trap and remove Water Arceus. Mega Gengar is frail, however, and cannot directly switch into or easily take down Water Arceus sets running Judgment without Destiny Bond. When using Defog, Water Arceus is usually able to Defog on Stealth Rock Primal Groudon sets but has trouble against Dialga and will be Taunted by a lead Deoxys-S, meaning that Defog is best used on forced switches. Water Arceus can have Spikes set against it by Steel-type setters such as Ferrothorn, Klefki, and potentially Skarmory. Klefki and Skarmory have a much easier time against Water Arceus sets that are not running Judgment, but the threat of taking a Toxic from Klefki or Skarmory can force Water Arceus out, giving them a free turn to set Spikes. If Primal Kyogre comes in against Primal Groudon, meaning that Primordial Sea has overridden Desolate Land, Water Arceus can be used as a pivot against it and can then be switched back out to Primal Groudon to regain control.

Team Options
========

Water Arceus can fit onto most balanced and stall teams due to its synergy with other defensive walls, typing, and rare traits. Primal Groudon is the ideal partner for Water Arceus, as together, they can check a large portion of the metagame. Specifically, Primal Groudon keeps threats to Water Arceus such as Steel-types, Primal Kyogre, and Xerneas down. Ho-Oh appreciates the Defog support and Water Arceus's ability to check Pokemon such as opposing Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence, and Rock Arceus. Giratina-O works well with Water Arceus, as it can use Defog itself, giving Water Arceus the freedom to use two attacks. Klefki also works as a backbone alongside Water Arceus, checking Darkrai, Xerneas, Latios, and Latias. Offensive Xerneas sets also work as a threat to offensive teams that threaten to overpower Water Arceus and can use Aromatherapy in a pinch if necessary. Magic Bounce users such as Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie make for good partners, as they can help against entry hazards, status moves, and various other Pokemon depending on the Magic Bounce user. Mega Sableye fits best on a stall team alongside Water Arceus, while Mega Diancie better fits balance-styled teams alongside it. Lugia fits well on more defensive teams, providing a secondary check to Mega Salamence and Primal Groudon and just adds an extra general physical wall to assist Water Arceus. Water Arceus can provide Defog support in return to keep Lugia's Multiscale intact.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Water Arceus only has one truly viable set in ORAS Ubers, but that set has a couple of niche possibilites to work with. Reflect provides extra assistance against physical attackers that may otherwise overwhelm Water Arceus. Grass Knot deals more damage against Primal Groudon, but more importantly, it 3HKOes Primal Kyogre. This means Primal Kyogre cannot PP stall Water Arceus via Rest loops in a one-on-one situation. Iron Defense is a very niche option and hard to fit but can assist against sweepers that may set up on Water Arceus, such as Swords Dance Primal Groudon.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Steel-types**: Steel-types such as Dialga, Ferrothorn, and Klefki can all set entry hazards against Water Arceus and stall it out with Toxic, or Leech Seed in Ferrothorn's case. Water Arceus's options against Steel-types are limited, as the threat of status can make dueling them very risky. Water Arceus's attacks can also prove to be very underwhelming against Dialga and Ferrothorn.

**Shadow Tag**: Shadow Tag users such as Mega Gengar and the rare Gothitelle can trap and remove Water Arceus easily, paving the way for opposing sweepers to take over the match. Wobbuffet has a much harder time against Water Arceus, however, as Water Arceus can use non-attacking moves such as Toxic to avoid being Encored into attacking Wobbuffet, meaning Wobbuffet has no way to actually take Water Arceus down.

**Setup Sweepers**: Setup sweepers such as Geomancy Xerneas, Nasty Plot Darkrai, and Swords Dance Arceus formes can threaten to set up and overwhelm Water Arceus or just force it out.

**Chansey and Blissey**: Chansey and Blissey are impossible for Water Arceus to take down thanks to their very high special bulk and Natural Cure to prevent being Toxic stalled. They can also pass Wishes or use Heal Bell freely against Water Arceus.

**Latios and Latias**: Water Arceus's attacks against Latios and Latias are not strong enough to prevent them from coming in freely. Latios and Latias are usually faster and have recovery to prevent chip damage from taking them out. Without Grass Knot or Thunder, however, Latios and Latias open themselves up to the possibility that Water Arceus can use Recover as it takes Draco Meteor, as it does not OHKO, and stall them out afterwards. Calm Mind sets will just blow right past Water Arceus, however.

**Primal Kyogre**: Water Arceus can have trouble dealing meaningful damage to Primal Kyogre, and this can result in a stalemate depending on Primal Kyogre's set. Calm Mind + 3 attacks sets can overpower Water Arceus, while defensive sets using Rest can PP stall it out.

**Zekrom**: Zekrom risks being 2HKOed by Ice Beam if it switches directly into Water Arceus, but if Zekrom comes in safely, it will easily OHKO Water Arceus with Bolt Strike.

**Shaymin-S**: Shaymin-S can have trouble switching into Water Arceus, but if it gets in safely, it can threaten to OHKO with a Life Orb-boosted Seed Flare.
[OVERVIEW]
  • The best fitting forme to a Support set due to a Fire resistance while also not being weak to any commonly used type in Ubers
  • Only has one viable set, but does it very effectively
  • Can check multiple metagame dominating threats such as Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence, and Ho-Oh
  • Has an interesting story with Primal Groudon, as nearly all of Water Arceus's checks are being held down or choked out of viability by it, but Primal Groudon itself can break or wall Water Arceus if it wants to
  • Effective Defog user to an extent, but many Steel-type hazard setters will stack against it
  • Can be forced to choose between Ice Beam and Judgment, lacking one or the other can open it up to certain mons (lacking Ice Beam leaves it open to Dragon-types, lacking Judgment means it cannot take down Ho-Oh, Klefki, and other mons neutral to Ice easily)
  • Vulnerable to Shadow Tag and Toxic
  • Can be broken by sets aimed to counteract it, examples being Swords Dance or Rest Primal Groudon and Double-Edge Mega Salamence

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Judgment / Defog
move 2: Ice Beam / Judgment
move 3: Recover
move 4: Toxic
item: Splash Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
  • Judgment is good against Ho-Oh, Ground Arceus, and Klefki as well as just being a good all around STAB move
  • Ice Beam hits most targets at least neutrally, but can give Steel-types a free switch and only deals chip damage to neutral targets - best used with Judgment, but Ice Beam + Defog can be situationally effective
  • Ice Beam usually OHKOs Rayquaza but is an unfavorable roll against bulkier Salamence sets - however Salamence is rarely at full HP
  • Going without Ice Beam requires that Salamence and Rayquaza are properly covered elsewhere
  • Recover is the ideal recovery for a Support Arceus
  • Toxic is the ideal status move to wall most physical attackers, especially Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh as Ice Beam does little damage to them
  • Defog for hazard freedom
  • Choosing the right set comes down to a few other factors, but the general idea is:
    Dual attacks if Defog is not necessary or is already somewhere on the team
    Judgment + Defog is best when there is a secondary Salamence check such as Lugia/Dialga
    Ice Beam + Defog is the ideal option instead of using Dragon Arceus if a Diancie weakness is present

Set Details
========
  • Max HP + Defense to check physical attackers such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence
  • 16 Speed and use the rest to maximise Defense
  • Can go 124 Speed to outspeed positive max 90s
  • Can go 168 Speed for positive 95s <2nd best option

Usage Tips
========
  • Use as a general wall to physical attackers, but be sure to keep an eye out for Primal Groudon sets aimed to counteract Water Arceus (Rest, Double Dance, SR + SD) rather than the other way around
  • Spread Toxic to punish switches, but some mons may be better off getting paralysed by another teammate
  • Be very careful around Mega Gengar and other Shadow Tag users, only consider facing off against Gengar if you are sure you know the set (and can beat it or consider the trade worthwhile)
  • Can Defog on most SR Groudon sets, but has trouble keeping SR off vs Dialga and will be Taunted by Deo-S
  • Can be Spikes fodder vs Ferrothorn and potentially Klefki and Skarmory if lacking Judgment, play accordingly (Switch to Primal Groudon/Ho-Oh/Shadow Tag)
  • If Primal Kyogre comes in against Primal Groudon, pivot using Water Arceus to regain control
  • Salamence can 2HKO after SR with Double-Edge, play carefully if SR is up
  • Can run into trouble against well played Ho-Ohs due to burns and hazard damage

Team Options
========

Works well on most balance/stall builds, but notable mons are:
  • Primal Groudon
  • Ho-Oh
  • Giratina-O
  • Klefki
  • Xerneas (note Aromatherapy)
  • Mega Sableye / Diancie
  • Lugia

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
  • Reflect
  • Grass Knot
  • The meta does not offer viability to anything else
Checks and Counters
===================
  • Steel-types (Dialga, Klefki, Ferrothorn)
  • Shadow Tag
  • Setup sweepers (Xerneas, Darkrai, SD Arceus)
  • Chansey/Blissey
  • Latios/Latias
  • Primal Groudon
  • Primal Kyogre
  • Zekrom
  • Shaymin-S
 
Last edited:

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
move 1: Toxic
move 2: Judgment / Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Defog / Ice Beam

This should be the slashing imo. Ice Beam / Judgment > Judgment / Ice Beam might be better in move 2, but most of my builds with it have shown the opposite. I will look at this closer after I have slept.
 

Aberforth

is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ubers Leader
I'd slash ice beam and Judgment before Judgment and defog, and if so I'd also mention that it can check one of Mence or Ho-oh* based on what move it was running.

Mention adamant mence 2hko's Waterceus on the switch in after rocks damage, so having backup answers to Mence is a good idea.

Also I'd mention 124 speed as a benchmark for + 90s (jolly band ho-oh, jolly primal groudon). If Ice Beam is the main move, I'd definitely have the analysis spread be 56 speed so that Adamant Ray doesn't outspeed you, given that's most of the point of using the move.



*With burns and rocks damage taken, I'd not be confident in calling Waterceus without Judgement a good and consistent Ho-oh answer. It beats it 1v1, but wont beat it effectively against someone who knows how to use Ho-oh.

E: Ninja'd on slashing by Wreckdra.
 

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
move 1: Toxic
move 2: Judgment / Ice Beam
move 3: Recover
move 4: Defog / Ice Beam
This should be the slashing imo. Ice Beam / Judgment > Judgment / Ice Beam might be better in move 2, but most of my builds with it have shown the opposite.
^This

The 307 Spe spread is probably better on the analysis spread just because getting outsped and 2hkoed by Jolly CB Ho-Oh is a rather large flaw of some of the slower sets With the Speed you can Recover stall Brave Bird for recoil at least.

Not sure about Deoxys-A in Team Options.

Reflect should be the only thing mentioned in Other Options imo. Will-O-Wisp I would rather run one of the myriad of fire moves Arceus has in its place as any thing you would burn you would rather straight up kill / damage or have toxiced > burned. SD just gets it walled by other Waterceus and burned by Kyogre when used as a Pdon pivot. Its a neat idea and might be cool in some situations, but there is enough going against it to say i don't like it ... even in OO.

Add Zekrom and Blissey/Chansey to C&C imo.

I'll approve when this is done.

E: Also, either I can't see the "last edited" tag, or Aber's post doesn't mention anything that isn't already there.
 
Last edited:

Aberforth

is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ubers Leader
You cant see last edited tag, but the ice beam part is written weirdly in the intro, implying that it is sans Ice Beam that gives Waterceus trouble with Steels and Ho-oh, when it should say with Ice Beam Waterceus struggles with them.

Also: Should we really mention SD Waterceus? That feels like the recently deleted CM Dragceus set.
 
added and removed some stuff but i dont think a fast spread as default is that great

each speed mark is down to team structure, 240 defense is a good "default" for those that would be reading the analysis i'd say. as of right now i have no conclusive idea of what spread to have as the default when each speed benchmark has its pros and cons.

further qc opinion will be needed to get a concrete default spread.
 

Minority

Numquam Vincar
is a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
My opinion is that the main spread should be 248 HP / 136 Def / 124 Spe / Bold. This is a good compromise between Speed and bulk that meets the max 90s benchmark. Here are some basic calculations:

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Water: 190-225 (42.8 - 50.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Water: 223-264 (50.3 - 59.5%)
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Water: 313-370 (70.6 - 83.5%)
+2 252 Atk Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Shadow Force vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Water: 307-363 (69.3 - 81.9%)
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Water: 217-258 (48.9 - 58.2%)

The spread holds up well enough against physical attackers while the Speed is especially helpful for Jolly P Don, Jolly Ho-Oh, and Adamant Kanga. Two physical threats the spread doesn't do so well against are CB Jolly Rayquaza and Mega Luke, but no Arceus-Water spread (other than running nearly maximum Speed) is sufficient for these threats.

I think 56 Speed and 168 Speed should both be set details.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Having the primary slashing pointing to a set of Ice Beam / Defog seems strange to me. If I want a support Arceus with the traits that set offers I'd probably use Arc-Dragon unless my Diancie matchup was completely intolerable(even then a potentially slower Arceus that only has a small chance to 3hko isn't that great). I think either Judg+Ice or Judg+Defog are fine as primary but for an analysis Defog is probably better. The Arc-Dragon distinction is probably something that should be made clear in the analysis even if you change the slashing.
 
Last edited:
Ice Beam+Defog is fine as it doesn't get trashed by Diancie.

That being said, not having Judgment makes for a very passive set. I would slash

Judgment / Defog
Recover
Toxic
Ice Beam / Judgment

despite looking super weird, since it means you pick the three sets Judgment+Ice Beam, Judgment+Defog and Ice Beam+Defog. The slashing also means that the combination of Judgment+Ice Beam is promoted to the "primary" option, something I would recommend.

I would run 16 speed in this meta and I would urge for this to be the main spread. 124 speed seems silly to have as the standard spread for the simple reason that no one has ever run it which means that as far as I'm concerned, it's mostly theorymonning+calcs (and tbf those aren't too promising imo)
 

Minority

Numquam Vincar
is a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
The 16 Speed spread performs worse against Jolly Ho-Oh / P Dons and opts the primary spread to be slower than Yveltal, Mega Kanga, Excadrill, and the odd 252 Ray. What 244+ Def gets you is slightly higher physical bulk that has the potential for situational value when handling residual or recovery gaps. Of course this preference is unique to each team, but in my opinion having this marginally higher defense just doesn't provide the same tangible worth in return for all the lost Speed benchmarks. I feel that the main spread should be the one that optimizes the number of hard benchmarks and that from there players decide if their team benefits more from going slower (16 and more physical bulk) or faster (168 but less physical bulk). If running 244+ Def meant you were hitting hard and key defensive benchmarks or that it made Arceus-Water solid against CB Ray, Mega Luke, or 252+ SD P Don then you'd be getting more concrete value in return for the other losses, but unfortunately that isn't the case.

Saying nobody ever benchmarks for base 90s is a pretty presumptuous claim in itself.

The newly proposed slashing looks good.
 

hyw

Banned deucer.
I have not yet gotten the chance to read the discussion above but here are my two cents regarding the Speed EVs dilemma: regardless of whether one opts for a bulkier or faster Spe EVs, one must nevertheless face the reality that Rayquaza will outpace you, an A- ranked Pokémon easily finding a spot on offensively oriented teams, capable of dishing out the following:

252 Atk Choice Band Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Arceus-Water: 208-246 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO (the Choice Band sets flat out 2HKO you rofl)

4 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 222-263 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this plus a Dragon Ascent also KOs you)

Whereas
252 Atk Choice Band Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 92+ Def Arceus-Water: 235-277 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In my opinion, within the paradigms of a metagame so fervently obsessive over compression and optimization, such raw power checked loosely more often than not results in a failure on the player on the defensive to sufficiently control the damage output.

Theorymonning fails to convey how different the experience is in practice when you are granted the liberty to actually outpace Rayquaza to either Recover on its face or outright kill it, as opposed to succumbing to its superior speed.

I believe this is much more relevant to examine than Arceus-Water's ability to tank a +2 Shadow Force and whatnot and therefore believe the 168 Spe EVs benchmark should be set forth as the standard, with each subsequent slower/bulkier spread listed under Set Details.

Honestly, though, I feel like 124 is pretty arbitrary and, frankly, the edge in speed unnecessary, and would rather see, if anything, 16 as the standard. You might not be able to find "relevant calcs" to mathematically prove some significance but for such a splashable utility glue designated to take hits left and right in order to control momentum, it is of my firm belief that disregarding how every little bit counts misleads one to grossly underestimate the value in having maintained solid bulk as a fundamental philosophy.

So yeah tldr 168 or 16 because of Rayquaza/how this support Pokémon is meant to be used within context of its role in the metagame. #GOHARDORGOHOME
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I think 16 Speed should be standard with a strong mention to 168 Speed in Set Details. The main priority should be given towards taking attacks from Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Salamence as well as possible. Even if you don't hit notable benchmarks (though with 240+ Def you live 2 Jolly CB Ho-Oh BBs at full, PDon +2 252+ Blades only has <50% chance to ohko after SR, and +1 Mence with Facade procced only has ~18% chance to OHKO after SR), Waterceus is primarily used to check these Pokemon, so you should be able to do so as well as possible. 16 Speed is generally enough for Adamant PDon/Ho-Oh, and running enough for +Speed PDon isn't really going to help since you'll still lose to the PDon sets designed to beat Waterceus (Jolly SD, SD + TWave). I don't think Jolly PDon or even Jolly Ho-Oh is common enough to warrant running 124 (even fast CB Ho-Oh uses Adamant most of the time for the extra power against Xerneas and friends), and if you're going to run that much Speed you might as well bump up to Jolly CB Ray since iirc there's no reason not to.

One more thing you could mention in OO is Grass Knot. It does more chip damage to Primal Groudon than Ice Beam, but notably lets you 3HKO Primal Kyogre so the defensive set can't just Rest loop you until Scald burns run you out of Recover PP. Not the best thing ever, but its something, and you don't really have the moveslots for anything else.
 
ok so with dice, hack, fireburn and myself all agreeing that 16 should be the default, that will be the main spread

168 will get a strong mention in the write up
 

Inspirited

There is usually higher ground.
is a Contributor Alumnus
I mostly agree with what was said other than the accusation of 307 Speed being used by no one. So long as there is a fast spread of some sort and it is emphasized (the 318 Speed one works fine), I am ok with the current spread order.

That being said, there is another spread with 307 Speed that also retains the quality of always tanking +2 Precipice Blades from full health, but unlike the other one, I know of no one who has used it yet and it may have some other drawbacks. I will see to that spread personally, but I really don't think it needs to be in the analysis right away even if I like what comes of it.

Cleared up Diancie on IRC.

Other than that, looks good to me.

QC_stamp.gif

QC: 2/3
 
i'd mention how u go about picking sets e.g. u use ib defog > dragonceus if u are diancie soft (usually meaning u dont have zong), judg defog if u have another mence check e.g. lugia / shuca dialga, and judg ib if u have another defog user or don't think u need it.
 

Fireflame

Silksong when
is a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
AMCHECK:
This will not count as one of the two required checks unless it is stamped by an official GP member.

Remove Add Comments (AC)= add comma (RC)= remove comma

[OVERVIEW]

Water Arceus finds its ways of usage in ORAS tied almost entirely to Primal Groudon, a newcomer to ORAS. Primal Groudon alone has invalidated previously viable sets thanks to an immunity to Will-O-Wisp as well as an immunity to Water Arceus's (we're talking about Water Arceus anyway so clarifying Judgment's user isn't adding anything, and saying "an immunity to this and an immunity to that" can be written in a more concise form) Judgment, rendering more offensive mono-attacking sets useless. At the same time,(AC) however, Water Arceus's role has adapted around Primal Groudon,(AC) and it now sits as the ideal support Arceus of choice thanks to its typing, giving it key resistances to Fire- and Water-type moves that make it relatively easy to fit onto both balance and stall teams alike. Water Arceus's neutrality to Fairy- and Dragon-type moves as well as a resistance to Ice-type moves give it different advantages over its main competition for a support role, Dragon Arceus. Water Arceus may have only one viable set, but it does its role with varying degrees of effectiveness (varying degrees implies both bad and good, so maybe you should reword this if these "degrees" of effectiveness are all high) as both a potential Defogger as well as and a check to top tier threats such as Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence, and Ho-Oh all in one Pokemon. Water Arceus's effectiveness has brought adaptations from the very Pokemon it checks, however, making its job a little more difficult, with sets such as Swords Dance Primal Groudon and Double-Edge Mega Salamence rising as common sets due to their increased effectiveness against Water Arceus. Water Arceus also has some issues with its moveslots, leaving it unable to do all its possible roles with just 4 moves, leading to some team based team-based (add hyphen) moveset choices. Water Arceus is also vulnerable to entry hazards, as well as status moves,(AC) and being trapped by Shadow Tag users (flows better); all things that the Ubers metagame has plenty of that can keep Water Arceus' Arceus's effectiveness down.

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Judgment / Defog
move 2: Ice Beam / Judgment
move 3: Recover
move 4: Toxic
item: Splash Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Choosing the first two moveslots on Water Arceus tends to come down to what the rest of the team requires. The most flexible option is to go with the combination of Judgment and Ice Beam.(end sentence),(RC) with Judgment giving gives Water Arceus the ideal effectiveness against Ho-Oh, Ground Arceus, and Klefki, and Ice Beam covering covers Pokemon such as Mega Salamence and Rayquaza,(RC) while also being able to get small damage on Primal Groudon if necessary. If Defog is needed somewhere on the team, either Judgment or Ice Beam can be used alongside it, depending on where the team needs the extra support. The combination of Judgment + Defog works best when there are secondary Mega Salamence and Rayquaza answers on the team (and Primal Groudon right?) to make up for the loss of Ice Beam, with examples such as Shuca Berry Dialga or Lugia. Ice Beam and Defog makes for a more passive combination,(AC) as it can be lacking in power against some of Water Arceus's switch-ins such as Steel-types, but can be effective as a replacement to Dragon Arceus in cases where using Dragon Arceus would give too much of a Mega Diancie weakness to a team, which can show in teams that do not use Bronzong alongside it (alongside what? Diancie or Arceus?). Defog provides freedom from entry hazards for both sides of the field,(RC) which can make using Pokemon such as Ho-Oh much more effective against the opponent, but is not mandatory on this set if a team doesn't require it,(RC) or already has it elsewhere. Recover, however, is mandatory on this set to ensure Water Arceus stays as healthy as possible throughout a match. Toxic is also mandatory to properly check some Primal Groudon sets via Toxic stalling, as well as provide pressure against Pokemon such as Ho-Oh.

Set Details
========

Generally, Water Arceus should always be fully invested in HP to maximize bulk as much as possible. Ideally being used as a physically defensive wall, Water Arceus should also be invested in Defense once the amount of Speed it requires to support the team properly is cleared up. The standard option is to go with 16 Speed EVs, and the rest in Defense with a Bold nature. 16 Speed EVs is fast enough to outspeed neutral natured base 90 Speed Pokemon, but will fail to be faster than Pokemon such as Jolly Primal Groudon. This is less of a worry, however, as Jolly Primal Groudon sets tend to be tailored specifically to break Water Arceus, meaning no amount of Speed investment will help against it. A secondary option is to use 124 Speed EVs to outspeed positive natured base 90 Speed Pokemon. This can come in handy against Ho-Oh specifically, as Jolly Ho-Oh can be potentially stalled out via with Recover as while Ho-Oh takes itself down with Brave Bird recoil. Another option is to use 168 Speed EVs, which allows Water Arceus to outspeed up to positive natured base 95 Speed Pokemon such as Rayquaza, but comes with a considerable loss in Defense investment which can potentially be a large problem against the Pokemon that Water Arceus is used to check.

Usage Tips
========

Water Arceus is best used as a check to physical attackers such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Salamence, and in most cases should be switched in against them as a first option. However, there are Primal Groudon sets to keep an eye out for, such as Swords Dance sets from more offensive teams as well as Rest sets on more defensive teams. Swords Dance Primal Groudon will break Water Arceus easily, so the ideal scenario is to get a Toxic on Primal Groudon and play around it using other teammates until Toxic damage racks up and takes it down. Rest Primal Groudon sets result in a stalemate for both sides, as neither Water Arceus or Primal Groudon can damage each other enough to break the stalemate. Switching out is generally the best option while Primal Groudon is sleeping. Stealth Rock Primal Groudon sets and most Rock Polish sets tend to be safer matchups for Water Arceus.(end sentence),(RC) as well as most Rock Polish sets (I think you should explain why because this is the main section to do that, and you explained why the other sets are a problem). However, Primal Groudon can fit Swords Dance on a Rock Polish set, or even on a Stealth Rock set, meaning the bottom line is to keep a close eye out for what set the enemy Primal Groudon could be using during a match to better assess what Water Arceus's capabilities against it are. Double-Edge Mega Salamence and Adamant Choice Band Ho-Oh sets should also be carefully played around, as with Stealth Rock on your side of the field in play (originally, this was unclear because it sounded like Stealth Rock was in play on the enemy side, which would benefit Arceus. This just clarifies the point you are making), Water Arceus's chances against them go down considerably. A well played Ho-Oh will aim to burn Water Arceus with Sacred Fire early on, and then use the burn damage to its advantage and potentially break Water Arceus later on in the match — keep this in mind. Spreading Toxic against the enemy team can punish switches and provide pressure on the opponent, but some Pokemon such as Mega Salamence and Xerneas may be better off paralyzed. This is because Mega Salamence commonly runs Facade, and it is much more difficult to stop if it cannot be paralyzed,(AC) as it has 140 Base Power STAB and also has 140 BP Facades to throw around (The change flows better since you had two "ands". Furthermore, by adding the extra STAB, it further emphasizes Mega Salamence's power and thus informs the reader about using Water Arceus and when/why to and when/why not to Toxic something). Xerneas falls under a similar line of thinking, as Geomancy Xerneas can also be much harder to stop for some teams if it cannot be paralyzed by checks such as Klefki. Furthermore,(AC) play Play (I think a transition here is nice and it improves flow, but it's not necessary) carefully around Mega Gengar and other Shadow Tag users such as Wobbuffet, as they can trap and remove Water Arceus with ease if the opponent deems it necessary. Mega Gengar is frail however, and cannot directly switch in against Water Arceus sets running Judgment and cannot or easily take down Water Arceus sets running Judgment without Destiny Bond (I felt that "Water Arceus sets running Judgment without Destiny Bond" implied that the Arceus wasn't running Destiny Bond). When using Defog, Water Arceus is usually able to Defog on Stealth Rock Primal Groudon sets, but has trouble against Dialga and will be taunted by a lead Deoxys-S, meaning that Defog is best used on forced switches. Water Arceus can have Spikes set against it by Steel-type setters such as Ferrothorn, Klefki, and potentially Skarmory. Klefki and Skarmory have a much easier time against Water Arceus sets that are not running Judgment, but the threat of taking a Toxic from Klefki or Skarmory can force Water Arceus out, giving them a free turn to set Spikes. If Primal Kyogre comes in against Primal Groudon, meaning that Primordial Sea has overidden Desolate Land, Water Arceus can be used as a pivot against it (this "it" is unclear and can refer to both Primal Kyogre or Primal Groudon, so I can't make any changes to this sentence based on the rest of it) and can then be switched back out to Primal Groudon to regain control.

Team Options
========

Water Arceus can fit onto most balance and stall teams due to its synergy, typing,(AC) and rare traits. Primal Groudon is the ideal partner for Water Arceus, as together they can check a large portion of the metagame. Specifically, Primal Groudon keeps threats to Water Arceus down such as Primal Kyogre, Xerneas, and Steel-types.(end sentence) Steel-types, Primal Kyogre, and Xerneas down. (This flows better) Ho-Oh appreciates the Defog support and Water Arceus's ability to check checking to Pokemon such as opposing Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence and Rock Arceus that Water Arceus brings to the team (Sounds much clearer, and "appreciates checking to" isn't english). Giratina-O works well with Water Arceus, as it can use Defog itself, giving Water Arceus the freedom to use 2 attacks. Klefki also works as a backbone alongside Water Arceus, checking Darkrai, Xerneas, Latios, and Latias. Offensive Xerneas sets also work as a threat to offensive teams that threaten to overpower Water Arceus, and can use Aromatherapy in a pinch if necessary. Magic Bounce users such as Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie make for good partners,(AC) as they can help against entry hazards, status moves, and various different other Pokemon depending on the Magic Bounce user. Mega Sableye fits best on a stall team alongside Water Arceus, while Mega Diancie better fits balance styled teams alongside it. Lugia fits well on more defensive teams, providing a secondary check to Mega Salamence and Primal Groudon, and just adds an extra general physical wall to assist Water Arceus. Water Arceus can provide Defog support in return to keep Lugia's Multiscale intact. There are plenty more Pokemon that Water Arceus fits alongside on balance and stall teams, but the above are more prominent examples. (Don't know how I feel about this last sentence being here)

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Water Arceus only has one truly viable set in ORAS Ubers, but that set has a couple of niche possibilites to work with. Reflect provides extra assistance against physical attackers that may otherwise overwhelm Water Arceus. Grass Knot deals more damage against Primal Groudon, but more importantly it 3HKOs Primal Kyogre. This means it cannot PP stall Water Arceus via Rest loops in a 1v1 one-on-one situation. Iron Defense is a very niche option and hard to fit, but can assist against sweepers that may set up on Water Arceus, such as Swords Dance Primal Groudon.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Steel-types**: Steel-types such as Dialga, Ferrothorn, and Klefki can all set entry hazards against Water Arceus and also stall it out with Toxic, or Leech Seed in Ferrothorn's case. Water Arceus's options against Steel-types are limited, as the threat of status can make dueling them very risky. Water Arceus's attacks can also prove to be very underwhelming against Dialga and Ferrothorn.

**Shadow Tag**: Shadow Tag users such as Mega Gengar, Wobbuffet, and the rare Gothitelle can trap and remove Water Arceus easily, paving way for opposing sweepers to take over the match.

**Setup sweepers**: Setup sweepers such as Geomancy Xerneas, Nasty Plot Darkrai, and Swords Dance Arceus formes can threaten to set up and overwhelm Water Arceus,(RC) or just force it out.

**Chansey and Blissey**: Chansey and Blissey are impossible for Water Arceus to take down thanks to their very high bulk and Natural Cure to prevent being Toxic stalled. They can also pass Wishes or use Heal Bell freely against Water Arceus.

**Latios and Latias**: Water Arceus's attacks against Latios and Latias are not strong enough to prevent them from coming in freely. Latios and Latias are usually faster and have recovery to prevent chip damage taking them out. Without Grass Knot or Thunder,(AC) however, Latios and Latias open themselves up to the possibility that Water Arceus can use Recover as it takes Draco Meteor, as it does not OHKO, and stall them out afterwards. Calm Mind sets will just blow right past Water Arceus, however.

**Primal Groudon**: Primal Groudon and Water Arceus can check each other depending on the Primal Groudon's set. Primal Groudon sets lacking Swords Dance are checked by Water Arceus, but Swords Dance sets will break it easily. Rest Primal Groudon sets can turn the tables and force a stalemate.

**Primal Kyogre**: Water Arceus can have trouble dealing meaningful damage to Primal Kyogre, and this can result in a stalemate depending on Primal Kyogre's set. Calm Mind + 3 attacks sets can overpower Water Arceus, while defensive sets using Rest can PP stall it out.

**Zekrom**: Zekrom risks being 2HKOed by Ice Beam if it switches directly into Water Arceus, but if Zekrom comes in safely, it will easily OHKO Water Arceus with Bolt Strike.

**Shaymin-S**: Shaymin-S can have trouble switching into Water Arceus, but if it gets in safely, it can threaten to OHKO with a Life Orb-boosted Seed Flare.
Overall, this was incredibly well-written and you explained things very thoroughly without adding too much unnecessary information. Good job!
 

Rare Poison

if im butter then ur a hot knife
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
GP 1/2

Fireflame479: Remove Add Comments (AC)= add comma (RC)= remove comma
RP: add/change; remove; (comment); (AC) = add comma; (RC) = remove comma
[OVERVIEW]

Water Arceus finds its ways of usage in ORAS tied almost entirely to Primal Groudon, a newcomer to ORAS. Primal Groudon alone has invalidated previously viable sets thanks to an immunity to Will-O-Wisp as well as an immunity to Water Arceus's (we're talking about Water Arceus anyway so clarifying Judgment's user isn't adding anything, and saying "an immunity to this and an immunity to that" can be written in a more concise form) ("immunities to Will-O-Wisp and Water Arceus's Judgment" probably would have been a better fix) Judgment, rendering more offensive mono-attacking sets useless. At the same time,(AC) however, Water Arceus's role has adapted around Primal Groudon,(AC) and it now sits as the ideal support Arceus of choice thanks to its typing, giving it key resistances to Fire- and Water-type moves that make it relatively easy to fit onto both balanced and stall teams alike. Water Arceus's neutrality to Fairy- and Dragon-type moves as well as a resistance to Ice-type moves give it different advantages over its main competition for a support role, Dragon Arceus. Water Arceus may have only one viable set, but it does its role with varying degrees of effectiveness (varying degrees implies both bad and good, so maybe you should reword this if these "degrees" of effectiveness are all high) (it's...probably fine) as both a potential Defogger as well as and a check to top-tier (hyphen) threats such as Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence, and Ho-Oh all in one Pokemon. Water Arceus's effectiveness has brought adaptations from the very Pokemon it checks, however, making its job a little more difficult, with sets such as Swords Dance Primal Groudon and Double-Edge Mega Salamence rising as common sets due to their increased effectiveness against Water Arceus. Water Arceus also has some issues with its moveslots, leaving it unable to do perform all its possible roles with just 4 moves, leading to some team based team-based (add hyphen) moveset choices. Water Arceus is also vulnerable to entry hazards, as well as status moves,(AC) and being trapped by Shadow Tag users (flows better); (remove semicolon) , (AC) all things that the Ubers metagame has plenty of, (AC) that which can keep Water Arceus' Arceus's effectiveness down.

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Judgment / Defog
move 2: Ice Beam / Judgment
move 3: Recover
move 4: Toxic
item: Splash Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Choosing the first two moveslots on Water Arceus tends to come down to what the rest of the team requires. The most flexible option is to go with the combination of Judgment and Ice Beam.(end sentence),(RC) with Judgment giving gives Water Arceus the ideal effectiveness against Ho-Oh, Ground Arceus, and Klefki, and Ice Beam covering covers Pokemon such as Mega Salamence and Rayquaza,(RC) (this should be red but yeah) while also being able to get small damage on Primal Groudon if necessary. If Defog is needed somewhere on the team, either Judgment or Ice Beam can be used alongside it, depending on where the team needs the extra support. The combination of Judgment + Defog works best when there are secondary Mega Salamence and Rayquaza answers on the team (and Primal Groudon right?) to make up for the loss of Ice Beam, with examples such as being Shuca Berry Dialga or Lugia. Ice Beam and Defog makes for a more passive combination,(AC) as it can be lacking in power against some of Water Arceus's switch-ins such as Steel-types, but it can be effective as a replacement to Dragon Arceus in cases where using Dragon Arceus would give too much of a Mega Diancie weakness to a team, which can show in teams that do not use Bronzong alongside it (alongside what? Diancie or Arceus?). (I'm assuming Dragon Arceus because otherwise it wouldn't have "too much of a Mega Diancie weakness") Defog provides freedom from entry hazards for both sides of the field,(RC) (keep this comma please) which can make using Pokemon such as Ho-Oh much more effective against the opponent, but is not mandatory on this set if a team doesn't require it,(RC) or already has it elsewhere. Recover, however, is mandatory on this set to ensure Water Arceus stays as healthy as possible throughout a match. Toxic is also mandatory to properly check some Primal Groudon sets via Toxic stalling, as well as provide pressure against Pokemon such as Ho-Oh.

Set Details
========

Generally, Water Arceus should always be fully invested in HP to maximize bulk as much as possible. Ideally being used as a physically defensive wall, Water Arceus should also be invested in Defense once the amount of Speed it requires to support the team properly is cleared up. The standard option is to go with 16 Speed EVs, and the rest in Defense with a Bold nature. 16 Speed EVs is fast enough to outspeed neutral natured base 90 Speed Pokemon, but will fail to be faster than Pokemon such as Jolly Primal Groudon. This is less of a worry, however, as Jolly Primal Groudon sets tend to be tailored specifically to break Water Arceus, meaning no amount of Speed investment will help against it. A secondary option is to use 124 Speed EVs to outspeed positive natured base 90 Speed Pokemon. This can come in handy against Ho-Oh specifically, as Jolly Ho-Oh can be potentially stalled out via with Recover as while Ho-Oh takes itself down with Brave Bird recoil. Another option is to use 168 Speed EVs, which allows Water Arceus to outspeed up to positive natured base 95 Speed Pokemon such as Rayquaza, but comes with a considerable loss in Defense investment which can potentially be a large problem against the Pokemon that Water Arceus is used to check.

Usage Tips
========

Water Arceus is best used as a check to physical attackers such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Salamence, (RC) and in most cases, (AC) should be switched in against them as a first option. However, there are Primal Groudon sets to keep an eye out for, such as Swords Dance sets from more offensive teams as well as Rest sets on more defensive teams. Swords Dance Primal Groudon will break Water Arceus easily, so the ideal scenario is to get a Toxic on Primal Groudon and play around it using other teammates until Toxic damage racks up and takes it down. Rest Primal Groudon sets result in a stalemate for both sides, as neither Water Arceus or nor Primal Groudon can damage each other enough to break the stalemate. Switching out while Primal Groudon is sleeping is generally the best option while Primal Groudon is sleeping. Stealth Rock Primal Groudon sets and most Rock Polish sets tend to be safer matchups for Water Arceus.(end sentence),(RC) as well as most Rock Polish sets (I think you should explain why because this is the main section to do that, and you explained why the other sets are a problem). However, Primal Groudon can fit Swords Dance on a Rock Polish set, or even on a Stealth Rock set, meaning the bottom line is to keep a close eye out for what set the enemy Primal Groudon could be using during a match to better assess what Water Arceus's capabilities against it are. Double-Edge Mega Salamence and Adamant Choice Band Ho-Oh sets should also be carefully played around, as with Stealth Rock on your side of the field in play (originally, this was unclear because it sounded like Stealth Rock was in play on the enemy side, which would benefit Arceus. This just clarifies the point you are making), Water Arceus's chances against them go down considerably. Keep in mind that a well played Ho-Oh will aim to burn Water Arceus with Sacred Fire early on, (RC) and then use the burn damage to its advantage and potentially break Water Arceus later on in the match — keep this in mind. Spreading Toxic against the enemy team can punish switches and provide pressure on the opponent, but some Pokemon such as Mega Salamence and Xerneas may be better off paralyzed. This is because Mega Salamence commonly runs Facade, and it is much more difficult to stop if it cannot be paralyzed,(AC) as it has 140 Base Power STAB and also has 140 BP Facades to throw around (The change flows better since you had two "ands". Furthermore, by adding the extra STAB, it further emphasizes Mega Salamence's power and thus informs the reader about using Water Arceus and when/why to and when/why not to Toxic something). Xerneas falls under a similar line of thinking, as Geomancy Xerneas can also be much harder to stop for some teams if it cannot be paralyzed by checks such as Klefki. Furthermore,(AC) play Play (I think a transition here is nice and it improves flow, but it's not necessary) (please don't add this transition. "Furthermore" would imply it's still talking about the whole "it's better to keep X paralyzed" thing, which is not the case) carefully around Mega Gengar and other Shadow Tag users such as Wobbuffet, as they can trap and remove Water Arceus with ease if the opponent deems it necessary. Mega Gengar is frail, (AC) however, and cannot directly switch in against Water Arceus sets running Judgment and cannot or easily take down Water Arceus sets running Judgment without Destiny Bond (I felt that "Water Arceus sets running Judgment without Destiny Bond" implied that the Arceus wasn't running Destiny Bond). (this change doesn't do much because it still says "Water Arceus without Destiny Bond" while making the sentence a whole lot more awkward. keep the original sentence but change "switching in" to "switching into") When using Defog, Water Arceus is usually able to Defog on Stealth Rock Primal Groudon sets, (RC) but has trouble against Dialga and will be Taunted by a lead Deoxys-S, meaning that Defog is best used on forced switches. Water Arceus can have Spikes set against it by Steel-type setters such as Ferrothorn, Klefki, and potentially Skarmory. Klefki and Skarmory have a much easier time against Water Arceus sets that are not running Judgment, but the threat of taking a Toxic from Klefki or Skarmory can force Water Arceus out, giving them a free turn to set Spikes. If Primal Kyogre comes in against Primal Groudon, meaning that Primordial Sea has overidden overridden Desolate Land, Water Arceus can be used as a pivot against it (this "it" is unclear and can refer to both Primal Kyogre or Primal Groudon, so I can't make any changes to this sentence based on the rest of it) (I'm assuming "it" is Primal Kyogre) and can then be switched back out to Primal Groudon to regain control.

Team Options
========

Water Arceus can fit onto most balanced and stall teams due to its synergy, (with what?) typing,(AC) and rare traits. Primal Groudon is the ideal partner for Water Arceus, as together, (AC) they can check a large portion of the metagame. Specifically, Primal Groudon keeps threats to Water Arceus down such as Primal Kyogre, Xerneas, and Steel-types.(end sentence) Steel-types, Primal Kyogre, and Xerneas down. (This flows better) (this is an unnecessary change) Ho-Oh appreciates the Defog support and Water Arceus's ability to check checking to Pokemon such as opposing Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence, (AC) and Rock Arceus that Water Arceus brings to the team (Sounds much clearer, and "appreciates checking to" isn't english). (ok) Giratina-O works well with Water Arceus, as it can use Defog itself, giving Water Arceus the freedom to use 2 attacks. Klefki also works as a backbone alongside Water Arceus, checking Darkrai, Xerneas, Latios, and Latias. Offensive Xerneas sets also work as a threat to offensive teams that threaten to overpower Water Arceus, (RC) and can use Aromatherapy in a pinch if necessary. Magic Bounce users such as Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie make for good partners,(AC) as they can help against entry hazards, status moves, and various different other Pokemon depending on the Magic Bounce user. Mega Sableye fits best on a stall team alongside Water Arceus, while Mega Diancie better fits balance-styled (hyphen) teams alongside it. Lugia fits well on more defensive teams, providing a secondary check to Mega Salamence and Primal Groudon, (RC) and just adds an extra general physical wall to assist Water Arceus. Water Arceus can provide Defog support in return to keep Lugia's Multiscale intact. There are plenty more Pokemon that Water Arceus fits alongside on balance and stall teams, but the above are more prominent examples. (Don't know how I feel about this last sentence being here) (yeah it's probably not needed if you're not going to elaborate)

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Water Arceus only has one truly viable set in ORAS Ubers, but that set has a couple of niche possibilites to work with. Reflect provides extra assistance against physical attackers that may otherwise overwhelm Water Arceus. Grass Knot deals more damage against Primal Groudon, but more importantly, (AC) it 3HKOes Primal Kyogre. This means it Primal Kyogre cannot PP stall Water Arceus via Rest loops in a 1v1 one-on-one situation. Iron Defense is a very niche option and hard to fit, (RC) but can assist against sweepers that may set up on Water Arceus, such as Swords Dance Primal Groudon.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Steel-types**: Steel-types such as Dialga, Ferrothorn, and Klefki can all set entry hazards against Water Arceus and also stall it out with Toxic, or Leech Seed in Ferrothorn's case. Water Arceus's options against Steel-types are limited, as the threat of status can make dueling them very risky. Water Arceus's attacks can also prove to be very underwhelming against Dialga and Ferrothorn.

**Shadow Tag**: Shadow Tag users such as Mega Gengar, Wobbuffet, and the rare Gothitelle can trap and remove Water Arceus easily, paving the way for opposing sweepers to take over the match.

**Setup Sweepers**: Setup sweepers such as Geomancy Xerneas, Nasty Plot Darkrai, and Swords Dance Arceus formes can threaten to set up and overwhelm Water Arceus,(RC) or just force it out.

**Chansey and Blissey**: Chansey and Blissey are impossible for Water Arceus to take down thanks to their very high bulk and Natural Cure to prevent being Toxic stalled. They can also pass Wishes or use Heal Bell freely against Water Arceus.

**Latios and Latias**: Water Arceus's attacks against Latios and Latias are not strong enough to prevent them from coming in freely. Latios and Latias are usually faster and have recovery to prevent chip damage from taking them out. Without Grass Knot or Thunder,(AC) however, Latios and Latias open themselves up to the possibility that Water Arceus can use Recover as it takes Draco Meteor, as it does not OHKO, and stall them out afterwards. Calm Mind sets will just blow right past Water Arceus, however.

**Primal Groudon**: Primal Groudon and Water Arceus can check each other depending on the Primal Groudon's set. Primal Groudon sets lacking Swords Dance are checked by Water Arceus, but Swords Dance sets will break it easily. Rest Primal Groudon sets can turn the tables and force a stalemate.

**Primal Kyogre**: Water Arceus can have trouble dealing meaningful damage to Primal Kyogre, and this can result in a stalemate depending on Primal Kyogre's set. Calm Mind + 3 attacks sets can overpower Water Arceus, while defensive sets using Rest can PP stall it out.

**Zekrom**: Zekrom risks being 2HKOed by Ice Beam if it switches directly into Water Arceus, but if Zekrom comes in safely, it will easily OHKO Water Arceus with Bolt Strike.

**Shaymin-S**: Shaymin-S can have trouble switching into Water Arceus, but if it gets in safely, it can threaten to OHKO with a Life Orb-boosted Seed Flare.


nice work Nayrz

Fireflame479 nice job getting objective changes, but I still feel you can be a little more conservative with subjective changes, especially if they don't help the sentence much.
 
Last edited:
All those comments had me hella confused, but this is fixed and ready for the second. There have been a couple small additions since the first GP check, namely the Shadow Tag section as a quick note for the 2nd checker.
 

Lumari

empty spaces
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris an Administrator Alumnus
TFP Leader


remove
add / fix (comments); (AC=add comma; RC=remove comma; SC=semicolon)
GP 2/2
[OVERVIEW]

Water Arceus finds its ways of usage in ORAS tied almost entirely to Primal Groudon, a newcomer to ORAS. Primal Groudon alone has invalidated previously viable sets thanks to immunities to Will-O-Wisp and Water Arceus's Water-type (100% subjective but wording consistency-ish) Judgment, rendering more offensive mono-attacking sets useless. At the same time, however, Water Arceus's role has adapted around Primal Groudon, and it now sits as the ideal support Arceus of choice thanks to its typing, giving it key resistances to Fire- and Water-type moves that make it relatively easy to fit onto both balanced and stall teams alike. Water Arceus's neutrality to Fairy- and Dragon-type moves as well as a resistance to Ice-type moves give gives it different advantages over its main competition for a support role, Dragon Arceus. Water Arceus may have only one viable set, but it does its role with varying degrees of effectiveness as both a potential Defogger and a check to top-tier threats such as Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence, and Ho-Oh all in one Pokemon. Water Arceus's effectiveness has brought adaptations from the very Pokemon it checks, however, making its job a little more difficult, with sets such as Swords Dance Primal Groudon and Double-Edge Mega Salamence rising as common sets due to their increased effectiveness against Water Arceus. Water Arceus also has some issues with its moveslots, leaving it unable to perform all its possible roles with just 4 four moves, leading to some team-based moveset choices. Water Arceus is also vulnerable to entry hazards, status moves, and being trapped by Shadow Tag users, all things that the Ubers metagame has plenty of, which can keep Water Arceus's effectiveness down.

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Judgment / Defog
move 2: Ice Beam / Judgment
move 3: Recover
move 4: Toxic
item: Splash Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Choosing the first two moveslots on Water Arceus tends to come down to what the rest of the team requires. The most flexible option is to go with the combination of Judgment and Ice Beam. Judgment gives Water Arceus the ideal effectiveness against Ho-Oh, Ground Arceus, and Klefki, and Ice Beam covers Pokemon such as Mega Salamence and Rayquaza (RC) while also being able to get small damage on Primal Groudon if necessary. If Defog is needed somewhere on the team, either Judgment or Ice Beam can be used alongside it, depending on where the team needs the extra support. The combination of Judgment + and Defog works best when there are secondary Mega Salamence and Rayquaza answers on the team to make up for the loss of Ice Beam, with examples being Shuca Berry Dialga or and Lugia. Ice Beam and Defog make for a more passive combination, as it can be lacking in power against some of Water Arceus's switch-ins such as Steel-types, but it can be effective as a replacement to Dragon Arceus in cases where using Dragon Arceus would give too much of a Mega Diancie weakness to a team, which can show in teams that do not use Bronzong. Defog provides freedom from entry hazards for both sides of the field, which can make using Pokemon such as Ho-Oh much more effective against the opponent, but is not mandatory on this set if a team doesn't require it or already has it elsewhere. Recover, however, is mandatory on this set required (repetition)to ensure Water Arceus stays as healthy as possible throughout a match. Toxic is also mandatory to properly check some Primal Groudon sets via Toxic stalling, as well as provide pressure against Pokemon such as Ho-Oh.

Set Details
========

Generally, Water Arceus should always be fully invested in HP to maximize bulk as much as possible. Ideally being used as a physically defensive wall, Water Arceus should also be invested in Defense once the amount of Speed it requires to support the team properly is cleared up. The standard option is to go with 16 Speed EVs, and the rest in Defense with a Bold nature. 16 Speed EVs is fast enough to outspeed neutral-natured (AH) base 90 Speed Pokemon, but Water Arceus will fail to be faster than Pokemon such as Jolly Primal Groudon. This is less of a worry, however, as Jolly Primal Groudon sets tend to be tailored specifically to break Water Arceus, meaning no amount of Speed investment will help against it. A secondary option is to use 124 Speed EVs to outspeed positive-natured (AH) base 90 Speed Pokemon. This can come in handy against Ho-Oh specifically, as Jolly Ho-Oh can be potentially stalled out with Recover while Ho-Oh it takes itself down with Brave Bird recoil. Another option is to use 168 Speed EVs, which allows Water Arceus to outspeed up to positive-natured (AH) base 95 Speed Pokemon such as Rayquaza (RC) but comes with a considerable loss in Defense investment, (AC) which can potentially be a large problem against the Pokemon that Water Arceus is used to check.

Usage Tips
========

Water Arceus is best used as a check to physical attackers such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Salamence and, (AC) in most cases, should be switched in against them as a first option. However, there are Primal Groudon sets to keep an eye out for, such as Swords Dance sets from more offensive teams as well as Rest sets on more defensive teams. Swords Dance Primal Groudon will break Water Arceus easily, so the ideal scenario is to get a Toxic on Primal Groudon and play around it using other teammates until Toxic damage racks up and takes it down. Rest Primal Groudon sets result in a stalemate for both sides, as neither Water Arceus nor Primal Groudon can damage each other enough to break the stalemate. Switching out while Primal Groudon is sleeping is generally the best option. Stealth Rock Primal Groudon sets and most Rock Polish sets tend to be safer matchups for Water Arceus, as they do not typically carry Swords Dance. However, Primal Groudon can fit Swords Dance on a Rock Polish set, or even on a Stealth Rock set, meaning the bottom line is to keep a close eye out for what set the enemy Primal Groudon could be using during a match to better assess what Water Arceus's capabilities against it are. Double-Edge Mega Salamence and Adamant Choice Band Ho-Oh sets should also be carefully played around, as with Stealth Rock on your side of the field, Water Arceus's chances against them go down considerably. Keep in mind that a well-played (AH) Ho-Oh will aim to burn Water Arceus with Sacred Fire early on and then use the burn damage to its advantage and potentially break Water Arceus later on in the match. Spreading Toxic against the enemy team can punish switches and provide pressure on the opponent, but some Pokemon such as Mega Salamence and Xerneas may be better off paralyzed. This is because Mega Salamence commonly runs Facade, and it is much more difficult to stop if it cannot be paralyzed, as it has 140-Base (AH) Power STAB Facades to throw around. Xerneas falls under a similar line of thinking, as Geomancy Xerneas can also be much harder to stop for some teams if it cannot be paralyzed by checks such as Klefki. Play carefully around Mega Gengar, as it can trap and remove Water Arceus. Mega Gengar is frail, however, and cannot directly switch into or easily take down Water Arceus sets running Judgment without Destiny Bond. When using Defog, Water Arceus is usually able to Defog on Stealth Rock Primal Groudon sets but has trouble against Dialga and will be Taunted by a lead Deoxys-S, meaning that Defog is best used on forced switches. Water Arceus can have Spikes set against it by Steel-type setters such as Ferrothorn, Klefki, and potentially Skarmory. Klefki and Skarmory have a much easier time against Water Arceus sets that are not running Judgment, but the threat of taking a Toxic from Klefki or Skarmory can force Water Arceus out, giving them a free turn to set Spikes. If Primal Kyogre comes in against Primal Groudon, meaning that Primordial Sea has overridden Desolate Land, Water Arceus can be used as a pivot against it and can then be switched back out to Primal Groudon to regain control.

Team Options
========

Water Arceus can fit onto most balanced and stall teams due to its synergy with other defensive walls, typing, and rare traits. Primal Groudon is the ideal partner for Water Arceus, as together, they can check a large portion of the metagame. Specifically, Primal Groudon keeps threats to Water Arceus such as Steel-types, Primal Kyogre, and Xerneas down. Ho-Oh appreciates the Defog support and Water Arceus's ability to check Pokemon such as opposing Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence, and Rock Arceus. Giratina-O works well with Water Arceus, as it can use Defog itself, giving Water Arceus the freedom to use 2 two attacks. Klefki also works as a backbone alongside Water Arceus, checking Darkrai, Xerneas, Latios, and Latias. Offensive Xerneas sets also work as a threat to offensive teams that threaten to overpower Water Arceus and can use Aromatherapy in a pinch if necessary. Magic Bounce users such as Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie make for good partners, as they can help against entry hazards, status moves, and various other Pokemon depending on the Magic Bounce user. Mega Sableye fits best on a stall team alongside Water Arceus, while Mega Diancie better fits balance-styled teams alongside it. Lugia fits well on more defensive teams, providing a secondary check to Mega Salamence and Primal Groudon and just adds an extra general physical wall to assist Water Arceus. Water Arceus can provide Defog support in return to keep Lugia's Multiscale intact.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Water Arceus only has one truly viable set in ORAS Ubers, but that set has a couple of niche possibilites to work with. Reflect provides extra assistance against physical attackers that may otherwise overwhelm Water Arceus. Grass Knot deals more damage against Primal Groudon, but more importantly, it 3HKOes Primal Kyogre. This means Primal Kyogre cannot PP stall Water Arceus via Rest loops in a one-on-one situation. Iron Defense is a very niche option and hard to fit but can assist against sweepers that may set up on Water Arceus, such as Swords Dance Primal Groudon.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Steel-types**: Steel-types such as Dialga, Ferrothorn, and Klefki can all set entry hazards against Water Arceus and stall it out with Toxic, or Leech Seed in Ferrothorn's case. Water Arceus's options against Steel-types are limited, as the threat of status can make dueling them very risky. Water Arceus's attacks can also prove to be very underwhelming against Dialga and Ferrothorn.

**Shadow Tag**: Shadow Tag users such as Mega Gengar and the rare Gothitelle can trap and remove Water Arceus easily, paving the way for opposing sweepers to take over the match. Wobbuffet has a much harder time against Water Arceus, however, as Water Arceus can use non-attacking (AH) moves such as Toxic to avoid being Encored into attacking Wobbuffet, meaning Wobbuffet has no way to actually take Water Arceus down.

**Setup Sweepers**: Setup sweepers such as Geomancy Xerneas, Nasty Plot Darkrai, and Swords Dance Arceus formes can threaten to set up and overwhelm Water Arceus (RC) or just force it out.

**Chansey and Blissey**: Chansey and Blissey are impossible for Water Arceus to take down thanks to their very high special bulk and Natural Cure to prevent being Toxic stalled. They can also pass Wishes or use Heal Bell freely against Water Arceus.

**Latios and Latias**: Water Arceus's attacks against Latios and Latias are not strong enough to prevent them from coming in freely. Latios and Latias are usually faster and have recovery to prevent chip damage from taking them out. Without Grass Knot or Thunder, however, Latios and Latias open themselves up to the possibility that Water Arceus can use Recover as it takes Draco Meteor, as it does not OHKO, and stall them out afterwards. Calm Mind sets will just blow right past Water Arceus, however.

**Primal Kyogre**: Water Arceus can have trouble dealing meaningful damage to Primal Kyogre, and this can result in a stalemate depending on Primal Kyogre's set. Calm Mind + 3 attacks sets can overpower Water Arceus, while defensive sets using Rest can PP stall it out.

**Zekrom**: Zekrom risks being 2HKOed by Ice Beam if it switches directly into Water Arceus, but if Zekrom comes in safely, it will easily OHKO Water Arceus with Bolt Strike.

**Shaymin-S**: Shaymin-S can have trouble switching into Water Arceus, but if it gets in safely, it can threaten to OHKO with a Life Orb-boosted Seed Flare.
[OVERVIEW]
  • The best fitting forme to a Support set due to a Fire resistance while also not being weak to any commonly used type in Ubers
  • Only has one viable set, but does it very effectively
  • Can check multiple metagame dominating threats such as Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence, and Ho-Oh
  • Has an interesting story with Primal Groudon, as nearly all of Water Arceus's checks are being held down or choked out of viability by it, but Primal Groudon itself can break or wall Water Arceus if it wants to
  • Effective Defog user to an extent, but many Steel-type hazard setters will stack against it
  • Can be forced to choose between Ice Beam and Judgment, lacking one or the other can open it up to certain mons (lacking Ice Beam leaves it open to Dragon-types, lacking Judgment means it cannot take down Ho-Oh, Klefki, and other mons neutral to Ice easily)
  • Vulnerable to Shadow Tag and Toxic
  • Can be broken by sets aimed to counteract it, examples being Swords Dance or Rest Primal Groudon and Double-Edge Mega Salamence

[SET]
name: Support
move 1: Judgment / Defog
move 2: Ice Beam / Judgment
move 3: Recover
move 4: Toxic
item: Splash Plate
ability: Multitype
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
  • Judgment is good against Ho-Oh, Ground Arceus, and Klefki as well as just being a good all around STAB move
  • Ice Beam hits most targets at least neutrally, but can give Steel-types a free switch and only deals chip damage to neutral targets - best used with Judgment, but Ice Beam + Defog can be situationally effective
  • Ice Beam usually OHKOs Rayquaza but is an unfavorable roll against bulkier Salamence sets - however Salamence is rarely at full HP
  • Going without Ice Beam requires that Salamence and Rayquaza are properly covered elsewhere
  • Recover is the ideal recovery for a Support Arceus
  • Toxic is the ideal status move to wall most physical attackers, especially Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh as Ice Beam does little damage to them
  • Defog for hazard freedom
  • Choosing the right set comes down to a few other factors, but the general idea is:
    Dual attacks if Defog is not necessary or is already somewhere on the team
    Judgment + Defog is best when there is a secondary Salamence check such as Lugia/Dialga
    Ice Beam + Defog is the ideal option instead of using Dragon Arceus if a Diancie weakness is present

Set Details
========
  • Max HP + Defense to check physical attackers such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence
  • 16 Speed and use the rest to maximise Defense
  • Can go 124 Speed to outspeed positive max 90s
  • Can go 168 Speed for positive 95s <2nd best option

Usage Tips
========
  • Use as a general wall to physical attackers, but be sure to keep an eye out for Primal Groudon sets aimed to counteract Water Arceus (Rest, Double Dance, SR + SD) rather than the other way around
  • Spread Toxic to punish switches, but some mons may be better off getting paralysed by another teammate
  • Be very careful around Mega Gengar and other Shadow Tag users, only consider facing off against Gengar if you are sure you know the set (and can beat it or consider the trade worthwhile)
  • Can Defog on most SR Groudon sets, but has trouble keeping SR off vs Dialga and will be Taunted by Deo-S
  • Can be Spikes fodder vs Ferrothorn and potentially Klefki and Skarmory if lacking Judgment, play accordingly (Switch to Primal Groudon/Ho-Oh/Shadow Tag)
  • If Primal Kyogre comes in against Primal Groudon, pivot using Water Arceus to regain control
  • Salamence can 2HKO after SR with Double-Edge, play carefully if SR is up
  • Can run into trouble against well played Ho-Ohs due to burns and hazard damage

Team Options
========

Works well on most balance/stall builds, but notable mons are:
  • Primal Groudon
  • Ho-Oh
  • Giratina-O
  • Klefki
  • Xerneas (note Aromatherapy)
  • Mega Sableye / Diancie
  • Lugia

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
  • Reflect
  • Grass Knot
  • The meta does not offer viability to anything else
Checks and Counters
===================
  • Steel-types (Dialga, Klefki, Ferrothorn)
  • Shadow Tag
  • Setup sweepers (Xerneas, Darkrai, SD Arceus)
  • Chansey/Blissey
  • Latios/Latias
  • Primal Groudon
  • Primal Kyogre
  • Zekrom
  • Shaymin-S
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top