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Arceus Water (Sun Support)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by gookie, Jul 25, 2012.

  1. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    [SET]
    name: Sun Support
    move 1: Recover
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Thunder Wave / Will-O-Wisp / Flamethrower
    move 4: Roar / Perish Song / Grass Knot
    item: Splash Plate
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 204 SpD / 56 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Water Arceus might seem to be a poor check to Kyogre, as it is weak to Thunder; however, it is actually the best support Arceus for a sun team to use to check the titanic whale. Not only does Water Arceus excel defensively under sunlight, as Groudon's Drought reduces Thunder's accuracy to only 50%, but it also resists Ice Beam and Kyogre's Water-type STAB. Water Arceus might also seem overshadowed by Grass Arceus for this role, as it is able to hit Kyogre super effectively with its Grass-type STAB, and resists Kyogre's stronger auxiliary move. However, Water Arceus can safely wall any Dragon-type relying on Dragon-, Fire-, and Electric-type coverage in sun, something Grass Arceus can't do due to its boosted Fire-type weakness. Grass Arceus also doesn't have a hope in hell against Kyurem-W, whose STAB Ice Beam easily OHKOes it, while Water Arceus is only heavily damaged by Choice Specs Draco Meteor. Lastly, Water Arceus is one of the few Pokemon that can switch into Reshiram under the sun, and the lack of a quadruple Stealth Rock weakness makes Water Arceus a more reliable switch in for the plumed fire-dragon than Ho-Oh.</p>

    <p>Recover gives Water Arceus the longevity that it needs, allowing it to switch repeatedly into strong special attacks and regain lost HP. Ice Beam is used to check Rayquaza, as Water Arceus is an excellent switch-in for the deadly wallbreaker; it also deals good damage to Groudon and hits quite a few Uber Pokemon super effectively. The third slot is dedicated to status; Thunder Wave cripples offensive Kyogre for the rest of the match, in addition to neutering a whole slew of offensive Pokemon; Will-O-Wisp provides valuable chip damage against anything that Ice Beam is incapable of hurting significantly, and it also cripples Pokemon that rely on their physical Attack. Flamethrower can be run if Water Arceus does not need a status move, and gives it a way to damage Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Excadrill outside of Will-O-Wisp. In the last slot, a utility move is run; Roar gives Water Arceus a way to phaze opponents on predicted switches and rack up hazard damage; Perish Song allows Water Arceus to check bulkier Kyogre, especially ones with Rest and Sleep Talk, which Water Arceus is incapable of hurting without a strong Grass- or Electric-type attack; Grass Knot can be used as well as it gives Water Arceus a more reliable way of damaging Kyogre, although with no Special Attack investment, Kyogre will come out on top if it is running Calm Mind.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p>The EVs give Water Arceus maximum special bulk while still maintaining the ability to outspeed neutral-natured base 95 Speed Pokemon that have maximized their Speed investment. This is especially important to outspeed Modest Choice Specs Kyurem-W, whose Draco Meteor would 2HKO Water Arceus otherwise. Special Attack and Defense EVs are not used because Water Arceus really needs all that bulk to switch into the multitude of extremely powerful special attacks thrown about in the tier.</p>

    <p>Water Arceus can choose to run Stealth Rock, Magic Coat, Judgment, or Refresh in the last slot, but their utility is much more situational than any of the other moves listed. Toxic can be used as a status move, but one should take advantage of Water Arceus's access to lesser distributed forms of status.</p>

    <p>This set's premier partner is Groudon, whose eternal sunlight reduces Thunder's accuracy to a measly 50%; it can also switch into the many Electric-type attacks that plague Water Arceus. Ferrothorn also makes an excellent partner, resisting both of Water Arceus's weaknesses and setting up entry hazards to support it. Ultimately, one should remember that this set aims to support; and, as such, it is fairly self-reliant outside of Groudon, and doesn't need any other teammates to do its job.</p>
  2. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Where is Flamethrower :( The ability to not get smashed on by Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Excadrill is something worth noting, especially for the former two since they have a bigger probability of swapping into you in the sun.

    Also bulky support waterceus was my gimmick set from over a year ago ;_;

    QC 1/3 obv
  3. shrang

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    I still don't get the utility of this set. It's pretty much just dressing Grass Arceus in Water Arceus's clothes. Like, Grass Arceus sucks on sun teams because it's weak to Fire, but the problem is that this Water Arceus, because of its moveset and how you're using it (in the sun), is losing to Fire-types anyway. You're doing nothing that can hurt Ho-oh, Heatran would just laugh and Toxic your face, and beating Reshiram is suspect, even. I can't see why I can't just run Grass Arceus in the exact same slot on a sun team and reach pretty much the same results. At least Grass Arceus has a Thunder resistance, a Ground resistance, and a stronger Grass Knot to dispose Kyogre off with.
  4. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    Beating Reshiram is kind of a big deal because virtually nothing counters that thing as long as it's sunny. Ho-Oh I guess but Ho-Oh isn't always reliable and due to Reshiram's potential free moveslots it could easily run Stone Edge without losing any coverage. Chansey is a different story. Also, if Fire-type moves came from only Firemons, then this set would lose a lot of credibility. Except you see Fire moves on Dialga, Palkia, and Rayquaza as well.

    My main intent to using Waterceus was to absorb Kyogre Water Spouts, Reshiram Blue Flares, and counter Mixquaza at the same time. It also provided me with an Ice resist which was useful for getting rid of Cloyster who was actually really annoying, but that's nothing big. But the Ice resist is more important now with Kyurem-W on the loose, and while it can't really eat Draco Meteors, you can stop it from steamrolling stuff over with Ice Beam.

    Very situational Pokemon (except the option to use it came up to me multiple times...) and it's a halfway ridiculous set, which is why I never bothered to make an analysis for it. But since it's here and it works...eh might as well.
  5. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Yeah OK

    [qc]2/3[/qc]
  6. trickroom

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    [​IMG]
    QC APPROVED 3/3

    Very situational set like what shrang and Jibaku said.. Grass Arceus does the same thing except for taking Fire-type attacks. Oh yeah Kyurem-W still beats this set some of the time lol because you are doing laughable damage to it. This set does not enjoy Thunders from Kyogre at all. Latias is released now making this set worse but I guess the extra physical bulk and lack of Dragon weakness is huge.

    Also bulky support waterceus was my gimmick set from over a year ago ;_; <-- I guess this comment merits an approval.

    Support Water Arceus sucks because Grass Arceus has more utility.
  7. Theorymon

    Theorymon AHHHH REAL GOOMBAS!
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    I think this set's named should be changed to sun support, just so people will know the purpose of this set right away.
  8. dragonboy52

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    am.check

    Done.

    [SET]
    name: Sun Support
    move 1: Recover
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Thunder Wave / Will-O-Wisp / Flamethrower
    move 4: Roar / Perish Song / Grass Knot
    item: Splash Plate
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 204 SDef / 56 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Water Arceus may seem to be a poor check to Kyogre, as it is weak to Thunder, however, it is actually the best support Arceus for a Sun sun team to use to check the titanic whale. Not only does Water Arceus excel defensively under sunlight, as Groudon's Drought reduces Thunder's accuracy toonly50%, but it also resists Ice Beam and Kyogre's Water-type STAB. Water Arceus may also seem overshadowed by Grass Arceus for this role, as it is able to hit Kyogre super-<remove hyphen>effectively with its Grass-type STAB, and resists Kyogre's stronger auxiliary move, however, Water Arceus can safely wall any Dragon relying on Dragon-, Fire-,(add comma) and Electric-type coverage in sun, something Grass Arceus can't do due to its boosted Fire-type weakness. Grass Arceus also doesn't have a hope in hell against Kyurem-W, whose STAB Ice Beam easily OHKOes, while Water-Arceus is only heavily damaged by a Choice Specs-boosted Draco Meteor.<add period></p>

    <p>Recover gives Water Arceus the longevity that it needs, allowing it to switch repeatedly into strong Special special attacks and regain lost HP. Ice Beam is used to check Rayquaza, as Water Arceus is an excellent switch in for the deadly wallbreaker; it also deals good damage to Groudon and hits quite a few other Uber Pokemon such as... super-<remove hyphen>effectively. The third slot is dedicated to status; Thunder Wave cripples offensive Kyogre for the rest of the match, in addition to neutering a whole slew of offensive Pokemon; Will-O-Wisp provides valuable chip damage against anything that Ice Beam is incapable of hurting significantly, and it also cripples Pokemon who rely on their physical attack.; Flamethrower gives Arceus Water a way to damage Ferrothorn, Forretress,(add comma) and Excadrill outside of Will-O-Wisp. In the last slot, a utility move is run used; Roar gives Arceus Water a way to phaze opponents on predicted switches and rack up hazard damage;, while Perish Song allows Water Arceus to check bulkier Kyogre, especially ones with Rest and Sleep Talk, whom Water Arceus is incapable of hurting without a strong Grass- or Electric-type attack;. The third alternative Grass Knot gives Water Arceus a more reliable way of damaging with Kyogre, however, with no Special Attack investment, Kyogre will come out on top if it is running Calm Mind.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs give Arceus Water maximum Special special bulk whilst still maintaining the ability to outspeed neutral-natured base 95s who have maximized their Speed investment. This is especially important to outspeed Modest-natured Choice Specs Kyurem-W, whose Draco Meteor would 2HKO you Water Arceus otherwise. Special Attack EVs and Defensive Defense EVs are not used because Water Arceus really needs all the special bulk it can get to switch into the multitude of extremely powerful Special Attacks special attacks thrown about in the tier.</p>

    <p>Water Arceus can choose to run any of Stealth Rock, Magic Coat, Judgment, or and Refresh in the last slot, but their utility is much more situational than any of the other moves listed. Toxic can be used as a Status status move, but one should take advantage of Water Arceus's access to lesser distributed forms of status.</p>

    <p>This set's premier partner is Groudon, whose eternal sunlight reduces Thunder's accuracy to a measly 50%. Groudon can also switch into the many Electric-type attacks that plague Water Arceus. Ferrothorn also makes an excellent partner, resisting both of Water Arceus's weaknesses and setting up entry hazards to support it.</p>
    (You should probably mention more teammates.)

  9. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Working over d-boy's...

    Sorry, d-boy, but your check missed a lot of easy stuff and actually created a run-on sentence. Compare our checks to see what you missed or shouldn't have done. If you have any questions, PM me; it's always possible I missed stuff, too >.>
    Show Hide
    [SET]
    name: Sun Support
    move 1: Recover
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Thunder Wave / Will-O-Wisp / Flamethrower
    move 4: Roar / Perish Song / Grass Knot
    item: Splash Plate
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 204 SpD / 56 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Water Arceus may might seem to be a poor check to Kyogre, as it is weak to Thunder;,(semi) however, it is actually the best support Arceus for a sun team to use to check the titanic whale. Not only does Water Arceus excel defensively under sunlight, as Groudon's Drought reduces Thunder's accuracy to only 50%, but it also resists Ice Beam and Kyogre's Water-type STAB. Water Arceus may might also seem overshadowed by Grass Arceus for this role, as it is able to hit Kyogre super effectively(no hyphen) with its Grass-type STAB, and resists Kyogre's stronger auxiliary move. However, Water Arceus can safely wall any Dragon relying on Dragon-, Fire-,(comma) and Electric-type coverage in sun, something Grass Arceus can't do due to its boosted Fire-type weakness. Grass Arceus also doesn't have a hope in hell against Kyurem-W, whose STAB Ice Beam easily OHKOes, while Water Arceus(no hyphen) is only heavily damaged by Choice Specs Draco Meteor. Lastly, Water Arceus is one of the few Pokemon that can switch into Reshiram under sun, and the lack of a quadruple Stealth Rock weakness makes Water Arceus a more reliable switch-in(hyphen) for the plumed fire-dragon than Ho-Oh.</p>

    <p>Recover gives Water Arceus the longevity that it needs, allowing it to switch repeatedly into strong special attacks and regain lost HP. Ice Beam is used to check Rayquaza, as Water Arceus is an excellent switch-in(hyphen) for the deadly wallbreaker; it also deals good damage to Groudon and hits quite a few Uber Pokemon super-effectively. The third slot is dedicated to status; Thunder Wave cripples offensive Kyogre for the rest of the match, in addition to neutering a whole slew of offensive Pokemon; Will-O-Wisp provides valuable chip damage against anything that Ice Beam is incapable of hurting significantly, and it also cripples Pokemon who rely that relies on their physical Attack; Flamethrower gives Water Arceus Water a way to damage Ferrothorn, Forretress,(comma) and Excadrill outside of Will-O-Wisp. In the last slot,(comma) a utility move is run; Roar gives Water Arceus Water a way to phaze opponents on predicted switches and rack up hazard damage; Perish Song allows Water Arceus to check bulkier Kyogre, especially ones with Rest and Sleep Talk, whom which Water Arceus is incapable of hurting without a strong Grass- or Electric-type attack; Grass Knot gives Water Arceus a more reliable way of damaging with Kyogre, however, although with no Special Attack investment,(comma) Kyogre will come out on top if it is running Calm Mind.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p>The EVs give Water Arceus Water maximum special bulk while still maintaining the ability to outspeed neutral-natured base 95s 95 Speed Pokemon who that have maximized their Speed investment. This is especially important to outspeed Modest-natured Choice Specs Kyurem-W, whose Draco Meteor would 2HKO you Water Arceus otherwise. Special Attack EVs and Defense EVs are not used because Water Arceus really needs all that bulk to switch into the multitude of extremely powerful Special Attacks thrown about in the tier.</p>

    <p>Water Arceus can choose to run any of Stealth Rock, Magic Coat, Judgment and or Refresh in the last slot, but their utility is much more situational than any of the other moves listed. Toxic can be used as a status move, but one should take advantage of Water Arceus's access to lesser distributed forms of status.</p>

    <p>This set's premier partner is Groudon, whose eternal sunlight reduces Thunder's accuracy to a measly 50%;,(semi) it can also switch into the many Electric-type attacks that plague Water Arceus. Ferrothorn also makes an excellent partner, resisting both of Water Arceus's weaknesses and setting up entry hazards to support it.</p>

    Good stuff, Big Poppy ^.^
    [gp]1/2[/gp]
  10. Rayquaza_

    Rayquaza_

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    Arceus-Water is never, ever going to face a Kyogre's Thunder in sunlight.
    Groudon is never going to switch on Kyogre, for starters, unless it predicts a choiced Thunder. Should that happen, Kyogre will be forced out. Why would the Groudon user switch to Arceus-Water in that scenario?

    Furthermore, Kyogre's primary role is to keep rain on the battlefield, so no sane player would ever let Kyogre stay in the sunlight (should that unlikely scenario actually happen) for more than a turn.

    Arceus-Water is an excellent pokemon, but checking Kyogre just isn't its job.
  11. Electrolyte

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    Amateur GP Check working over Jellicent-
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  12. Pokémon Trainer R

    Pokémon Trainer R

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    As someone who has actually used Arceus-Water in a Sun team as a Kyogre counter long before this thread was actually created, I'd say that it is generally a lot worse at this role than Palkia, despite its access to reliable recovery in the form of Recover, due to its far lesser offensive presence. The factors that contribute to this include:

    1. Palkia's much higher Special Attack.
    2. Palkia's access to Same Type Attack Bonus Dragon-type moves including the excellent Spacial Rend.
    3. The fact that Palkia has a 4x resistance to Water and a neutrality to Thunder, while Arceus-Water only has a 2x resistance to Water and a weakness to Thunder. Because of this, as well as the fact that Arceus-Water cannot hold Leftovers, it is often forced to use Recover after switching into Kyogre's devastating attacks, and during that turn the opponent gets a free opportunity to safely switch in a different Pokémon, like Ferrothorn, Dialga or Palkia. But because Palkia's type combination makes it naturally much more resilient against Kyogre's assaults without needing to use a move like Recover, it can utilize the turn in which Kyogre switches out to attack the opponent's newly-switched in Pokémon on the switch. So for example, after switching into Kyogre's Water Spout, Palkia could try to Fire Blast the opponent's Ferrothorn on the switch, or Spacial Rend their Dialga on the switch, as it doesn't take that much from Water Spout. But unless Arceus-Water intends to be KO'd the next time Kyogre comes in, it would need to use Recover on the turn when Kyogre switches out, making Arceus-Water much less threatening offensively, as it cannot threaten the Pokémon to which the opponent switches out Kyogre to.
    4. Again because of the fact that Arceus-Water is weak to Thunder and possesses only a 2x resistance to Water, it needs to invest EVs into its bulk in order to stand up to Kyogre's attacks. But even with 4 HP, 252 Special Attack, 252 Speed and a Timid nature, Palkia does fine at holding off Kyogre for most of the match thanks to its excellent type combination, and in addition to doing what Arceus-Water does, it can also threaten the opponent's team as they switch out their Kyogre, by firing off fully Special Attack-invested Spacial Rends, Fire Blasts (which can defeat Ferrothorn in two hits in the rain), Thunders, Hydro Pumps, Draco Meteors, etc. So in addition to Arceus-Water's lower 120 Special Attack compared to Palkia's 150, there is also the fact that Palkia can afford to invest 252 EVs into Special Attack, unlike Palkia.

    And finally, one has to remember that by using Arceus-Water instead of Palkia as one's Kyogre counter, one cannot have another Arceus Forme in their team, which is another very significant disadvantage.

    I am not saying that there is never a situation in which it would be more beneficial to use Arceus-Water over Palkia in a team to counter Kyogre (especially given Palkia is an attacker and Arceus-Water is a supporter), but I believe that everything I have mentioned so far should seriously be considered, and also be brought to attention here.
  13. Oglemi

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    Poppy please address the last two posts so that this can get GPed
  14. Oglemi

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    Show Hide
    [SET]
    name: Sun Support
    move 1: Recover
    move 2: Ice Beam
    move 3: Thunder Wave / Will-O-Wisp / Flamethrower
    move 4: Roar / Perish Song / Grass Knot
    item: Splash Plate
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 204 SpD / 56 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Water Arceus might seem to be a poor check to Kyogre, as it is weak to Thunder; however, it is actually the best support Arceus for a sun team to use to check the titanic whale. Not only does Water Arceus excel defensively under sunlight, as Groudon's Drought reduces Thunder's accuracy to only 50%, but it also resists Ice Beam and Kyogre's Water-type STAB. Water Arceus might also seem overshadowed by Grass Arceus for this role, as it is able to hit Kyogre super effectively with its Grass-type STAB, and resists Kyogre's stronger auxiliary move. However, Water Arceus can safely wall any Dragon-type relying on Dragon-, Fire-, and Electric-type coverage in sun, something Grass Arceus can't do due to its boosted Fire-type weakness. Grass Arceus also doesn't have a hope in hell against Kyurem-W, whose STAB Ice Beam easily OHKOes it, while Water Arceus is only heavily damaged by Choice Specs Draco Meteor. Lastly, Water Arceus is one of the few Pokemon that can switch into Reshiram under the sun, and the lack of a quadruple Stealth Rock weakness makes Water Arceus a more reliable switch in for the plumed fire-dragon than Ho-Oh.</p>

    <p>Recover gives Water Arceus the longevity that it needs, allowing it to switch repeatedly into strong special attacks and regain lost HP. Ice Beam is used to check Rayquaza, as Water Arceus is an excellent switch-in for the deadly wallbreaker; it also deals good damage to Groudon and hits quite a few Uber Pokemon super effectively. The third slot is dedicated to status; Thunder Wave cripples offensive Kyogre for the rest of the match, in addition to neutering a whole slew of offensive Pokemon; Will-O-Wisp provides valuable chip damage against anything that Ice Beam is incapable of hurting significantly, and it also cripples Pokemon that rely on their physical Attack; Flamethrower gives Water Arceus a way to damage Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Excadrill outside of Will-O-Wisp. In the last slot, a utility move is run; Roar gives Water Arceus a way to phaze opponents on predicted switches and rack up hazard damage; Perish Song allows Water Arceus to check bulkier Kyogre, especially ones with Rest and Sleep Talk, which Water Arceus is incapable of hurting without a strong Grass- or Electric-type attack. Grass Knot can be used as well as it gives Water Arceus a more reliable way of damaging Kyogre, although with no Special Attack investment, Kyogre will come out on top if it is running Calm Mind.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs give Water Arceus maximum special bulk while still maintaining the ability to outspeed neutral-natured base 95 Speed Pokemon that have maximized their Speed investment. This is especially important to outspeed Modest-natured Choice Specs Kyurem-W, whose Draco Meteor would 2HKO Water Arceus otherwise. Special Attack and Defense EVs are not used because Water Arceus really needs all that bulk to switch into the multitude of extremely powerful special attacks thrown about in the tier.</p>

    <p>Water Arceus can choose to run Stealth Rock, Magic Coat, Judgment, or Refresh in the last slot, but their utility is much more situational than any of the other moves listed. Toxic can be used as a status move, but one should take advantage of Water Arceus's access to lesser distributed forms of status.</p>

    <p>This set's premier partner is Groudon, whose eternal sunlight reduces Thunder's accuracy to a measly 50%; it can also switch into the many Electric-type attacks that plague Water Arceus. Ferrothorn also makes an excellent partner, resisting both of Water Arceus's weaknesses and setting up entry hazards to support it. Ultimately, one should remember that this set aims to support; and, as such, it is fairly self-reliant outside of Groudon, and doesn't need any other team mates to do its job.</p>


    there are an awful lot of semi-colons, but it's fine

    [gp]2/2[/gp]
  15. Nexus

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    Uploaded and I suck

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