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Ubers Arceus-Water

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by WreckDra, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. WreckDra

    WreckDra got wet...
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2012
    Messages:
    711
    QC: 3/3 (Blue Jay, Fireburn, shrang)
    GP: 2/2 (horyzhnz, Calm Pokemaster)
    Done!



    I'm Blue da ba dee da ba die
    [​IMG]
    Overview
    ########
    Water Arceus has always been a jack of all trades as far as Arceus formes go, mainly because of its typing. Being a pure Water-type is a blessing for Water Arceus as it resists Ice-, Water-, and Fire-type moves, all of which are common attacking types in Ubers. This generation also turned Steel, its fourth resistance, into a common attacking type in order to deal with the threat of Fairy-types, thus making it more useful. Water Arceus's Judgment is nothing to laugh at either, as only three types resist it and nothing is immune to it as far as typing goes, making Water Arceus a potent mono-attacker. Drought has also been nerfed, meaning that Water Arceus can now be paired with Groudon without its Judgment being cut to 50% damage most of the time. It doesn't just rely on its typing and STAB, though; it is still an Arceus forme, which means it sports a base 120 in all stats and has a gigantic movepool including the strongest 100% accurate Water-type move in the game. Water Arceus was also able to capitalize on the buff to Defog, and like many of its other formes, now runs Defog on all of their support sets. It still does its old jobs quite well, checking the now prominent bulky Ground-types that litter XY Ubers and being a great pivot due to its typing, bulk, and access to Recover. However, Water Arceus still competes with its old rival Palkia as a Water-type and check to Ground- and Fire-types, which can make fitting it on a team difficult. Its most dangerous checks, Electric Arceus and Zekrom, are now much more common, and the Toxic it despises is now the most used move in Ubers. Competition between Water Arceus and more specialized Arceus formes has not changed, either. However, despite the increasingly hostile environment Water Arceus still functions very well in Ubers and should not be underestimated.


    Support
    ########
    name: Support
    move 1: Judgment
    move 2: Will-O-Wisp
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Defog
    item: Splash Plate
    ivs: 0 Atk
    evs: 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spe
    nature: Timid

    Moves
    ========
    The moves here are pretty self-explanatory. Judgment is Water Arceus's best STAB move with relatively high Base Power and zero drawbacks. Will-O-Wisp is to discourage any Zekrom from switching in unless it wants to get heavily crippled in the process. Zekrom will 2HKO Water Arceus even after the burn though, so keep that in mind. Toxic can be used over Will-O-Wisp to surprise other support Arceus formes and Calm Mind Electric Arceus, but discouraging a Zekrom switch-in is normally the higher priority. Recover is to keep Water Arceus healthy and able to consistently soft-check the Pokemon it needs to, also increasing its overall longevity. Defog is there to remove all entry hazards on the field and gives Water Arceus some utility in general. Grass Knot can be used to better check Kyogre and Groudon, but there is generally not enough room for it on this set. The same goes for Roar or Perish Song as they can be used to prevent Water Arceus from becoming setup bait, and the latter is excellent for situations where Water Arceus is facing down your opponent's last Pokemon. Once again, there is usually no room for either of these.

    Set Details
    ========
    248 HP EVs fill out Water Arceus's overall bulk while still retaining an odd HP number to mess with entry hazard, burn, and poison calculations. 96 Speed EVs and a Timid nature ensures that Water Arceus outspeeds all maximum Speed base 100s. The rest of the EVs are placed in Special Defense in order to avoid a 2HKO from Choice Scarf Kyogre's Water Spout after Stealth Rock damage and take neutral special attacks better in general. These Special Defense EVs can be relocated to Defense in order to turn Water Arceus into a soft check to Ho-Oh and Mega Blaziken, but in a metagame where Choice Scarf Kyogre is dominant, it is almost always better to put these EVs in Special Defense. Having zero Attack IVs will reduce damage taken from Foul Play and confusion, with the former being a relatively common move on Yveltal.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    You should only switch Water Arceus in on Choice Scarf Kyogre once. Once Arceus's forme has been revealed, your opponent will be more tempted to use Thunder in order to catch Water Arceus on the switch instead of mindlessly spamming Water Spout, which will get them no where without a critical hit. This particular Water Arceus can check many dangerous Pokemon that roam the Ubers metagame, but it can only check them at full health or close to it. Be sure to use Recover whenever it is safe to do so in order to make sure that Water Arceus can still check Landorus-T, Groudon, and Kyogre to an extent. However, this particular Arceus has a major problem when it comes to checking certain Pokemon. Water Arceus's typing allows it to check some threats offensively, but it cannot switch in directly, let alone take repeated hits from said Pokemon. Even when using the alternate defensive spread, Ho-Oh and Mega Blaziken are massive demonstrators of this problem, as Water Arceus cannot switch into a Choice Band boosted Brave Bird from Ho-Oh and still hope to win against it without being heavily crippled in the process. Mega Blaziken gets OHKOed by Judgment, but it can OHKO Water Arceus after a Swords Dance with Low Kick after Stealth Rock damage. There are quite a few more examples of these on the special side, but both sets must be played extremely carefully in order to avoid being destroyed by Pokemon this Arceus is supposed to deal with. Never Defog if Zekrom or Electric Arceus are still in good health, as the momentum loss will almost ensure that you lose the game right away if one of these two comes in and their respective checks have been weakened or removed. Lastly, like other support Arceus sets, this Arceus absolutely loathes Toxic. Toxic will ruin any kind of longevity Water Arceus had and basically makes Recover a useless moveslot if Water Arceus has been in for three or more turns and your team has no cleric support. This Arceus relies on Recover more than almost any other support Arceus, and being unable to Recover back to full health makes it unable to check many threats that it used to be able to. Toxic is used excessively in Ubers and is a decent option on almost any Pokemon including this Arceus set, so keeping Toxic away from it requires carefully planned switches and making sure that there isn't a random Toxic being carried by the Pokemon in front of Water Arceus.

    Team Options
    ========
    Bulky Ground-types are some of the best partners that Water Arceus has because they allow it to Defog without the risk of Zekrom coming in on it and doing massive amounts of damage to your team. Most Ground-types such as Landorus-T, Groudon, and Gliscor also have the option of running Stealth Rock to help Water Arceus pick up a KO on Ho-Oh. Speaking of which, Ho-Oh is also an excellent partner for this particular Arceus as it can check the Ferrothorn and Grass Arceus without Stone Edge that plague Water Arceus. Cleric support is a massive help to any support Arceus, and this one is no exception. Xerneas, Blissey, Sylveon, and Clefable can all remove the Toxic that Water Arceus hates so much. Defensive cleric Xerneas deserves a special mention since it also serves as a soft check to Zekrom. If there is no room for clerics on your team, status sponges can also be very good partners with Water Arceus. Examples of these that have good synergy with Water Arceus are Heatran, RestTalk Giratina, Ferrothorn, and Excadrill. Ferrothorn and Excadrill in the sand are also able to check Zekrom and Electric Arceus, Water Arceus's two most dangerous checks. Last but not least, Water Arceus's nemesis, Zekrom, is also one of its best teammates. It can make opposing Choice Scarf Zekrom think twice about locking themselves into Bolt Strike in fear of either being set up on by Substitute + Hone Claws Zekrom, or being forced out without doing anything notable. It is also an offensive check to Kyogre unlike Water Arceus.


    Calm Mind
    ########
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Judgment
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Refresh / Will-O-Wisp
    item: Splash Plate
    ivs: 0 Atk
    evs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Timid

    Moves
    ========
    Calm Mind is Water Arceus's best boosting move and is fairly easy to use in conjunction with the rest of the set. Water-type Judgment has no immunities against it other than the rarely seen Water Absorb, Dry Skin, and Storm Drain abilities, which makes Water Arceus a great candidate for a mono-attacking setup sweeper. Recover is there to shrug off damage taken while setting up. Refresh makes sure that random Toxic users, or Toxic users in general, will not be ruining Water Arceus's sweep any time soon. It will also allow Water Arceus to shrug off any inconvenient paralysis or burn inflicted on it. Alternatively, Will-O-Wisp can be used to discourage Zekrom from switching in, although Water Arceus is still 2HKOed by Bolt Strike from a burned Zekrom. Grass Knot can also be used here in order to defeat Calm Mind Kyogre and 2HKO Palkia a good amount of the time. This will also hit Groudon and many other Pokemon harder than Judgment in the sun.

    Set Details
    ========
    248 HP is, once again, to fill out Water Arceus's overall bulk while still having an odd maximum HP number to mess with residual damage calculations. Having maximum Speed with a Timid nature allows this Arceus to outspeed Gengar before it Mega Evolves and Speed tie with other maximum Speed Arceus formes, with the most important one being Electric Arceus. The leftover 8 EVs are put in Special Attack to slightly boost Judgment. Remember that these two additional points in Special Attack will compound when boosting with Calm Mind. Minimal Attack IVs are optimal for reducing Foul Play and confusion damage but doesn't do too much for Water Arceus outside of that. An alternative spread of 248 HP / 64 SpD / 188 Spe with a Timid nature can also be used to make sure Water Arceus has some sponging capability before boosting while also still being faster than Gengar, before Mega Evolving, and Thundurus, but a Speed tie with Electric Arceus is generally more important than the added bulk.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    This particular Arceus can actually take on some special attackers better than the previous one because of Calm Mind. Palkia is just one example of these, and Refresh means that this Arceus doesn't need to fear Toxic or Thunder Wave from Palkia either. Water Arceus needs six Calm Mind boosts to get past teams with healthy special sponges such as specially defensive Palkia, Blissey, and specially defensive Giratina among others. These boosts are not hard to acquire late-game when Zekrom and Electric Arceus are absent, but it is critical that these two Pokemon are removed before setting up. If you carry Will-O-Wisp, this set can actually be an effective lure for Zekrom once Calm Mind is revealed. Burning Zekrom is always nice because of how ridiculous its physical STABs are, but don't keep Water Arceus in on Zekrom because even after it is burned, Bolt Strike will 2HKO Water Arceus regardless. If you do forego Refresh for Will-O-Wisp though, make sure to keep Toxic away from this Arceus at all costs since it effectively ruins Water Arceus's sweeping potential.

    Team Options
    ========
    Ground-types to check Zekrom are always welcome alongside Water Arceus, and Ferrothorn is another option for this role; it also checks Electric Arceus with Toxic setting up Spikes. Excadrill deserves a special mention since it can Rapid Spin away an opposing Ferrothorn's entry hazards as well as check Electric Arceus and Zekrom to an extent. Cleric support from Pokemon like Xerneas, Blissey, and Sylveon is very useful if Water Arceus is not carrying Refresh. Zekrom is also a fantastic partner due to its ability to check Palkia offensively and make opposing Choice Scarf Zekrom hesitate before locking themselves into Bolt Strike. Mixed Zekrom is a particularly good teammate since it lures in Ferrothorn and can 2HKO it with Focus Blast. Spikes users such as Klefki and Forretress are also welcome when using this set, and Forretress can also serve as a Rapid Spin user. Entry hazard support helps this Arceus, and just about any sweeper, get its job done much easier.


    Other Options
    ########
    Stealth Rock is always an option on just about any support Arceus but so many other Pokemon use it better that it is almost not worth mentioning. Water Arceus can also make use of coverage moves like Spacial Rend for Palkia and Fire Blast for Grass-types but both of these moves have limited use, and Water Arceus usually will not have room for them on its moveset. Thunder Wave can be used to cripple offensive Kyogre and Palkia but it has no use against Water Arceus's switch-ins, and for this reason Will-O-Wisp and Toxic are preferred over Thunder Wave. Lastly, a Swords Dance set can be used with a spread of 252 Atk / 252 4 Def / 252 Spe and a Jolly nature, with Aqua Tail or Waterfall, Dragon Claw, and Recover as moves. The set itself got hit hard by the Drizzle nerf though and generally isn't worth running because of how little it offers over other Swords Dance Arceus formes and how much opportunity cost comes with using it.


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Palkia**: Palkia will beat support Water Arceus varients one-on-one if it carries Toxic or Choice Specs and Thunder, but non-Rest variants must watch out for the status move Water Arceus carries, and it is also beaten by Calm Mind variants if it doesn't have Dragon Tail.

    **Electric Arceus**: Electric Arcues can set up on Water Arceus and KO it while only fearing the rare Toxic, which will only cut its sweep short. It doesn't mind Will-O-Wisp at all.

    **Ferrothorn**: Ferrothorn will set up entry hazards all day on Water Arceus and can eventually KO it with the combination of Leech Seed, Power Whip, and, if Refresh isn't carried, Toxic.

    **Zekrom**: Zekrom can switch into and KO Water Arceus but it absolutely loathes Will-O-Wisp. It still has a chance to 2HKO Water Arceus when burned and will always 2HKO Water Arceus without Defense investment. However, it is also worn down on repeated switch-ins by entry hazards and Judgment, so Water Arceus can outlast it easily.

    **Shadow Tag Users**: Mega Gengar will put an end to Water Arceus 99% of the time but hates Thunder Wave and will faint alongside Arceus most of the time. Gothitelle can set up Calm Minds on support variants and 2HKO Water Arceus after six with Psyshock but it has trouble versus Calm Mind Water Arceus variants. Wobbuffet can turn Water Arceus into setup fodder for another Pokemon with Encore or Mirror Coat it into oblivion assuming it doesn't have five Calm Mind boosts when Wobbuffet is brought in. Wobbuffet must watch out for the status move Water Arceus is carrying though.

    **Dialga**: Dialga resists Judgment and can Toxic, Thunder, or phaze Water Arceus with Roar. However, it is worn down by repeated switch-ins to Judgment and entry hazards, and variants without Thunder or Toxic will lose to Water Arceus in a last Pokemon situation.

    **Grass Arceus**: Grass Arceus cannot take on Calm Mind Refresh variants of Water Arceus but it beats support variants one-on-one, although it may be poisoned or burned in the process.

    **Toxic Spam**: Toxic is carried on a large amount of Pokemon in the Ubers tier and will heavily cripple any Water Arceus without Refresh.

    **Phazing**: Phazers like Giratina, specially defensive Kyogre, and Lugia can take boosted hits from Water Arceus, and the former two can Rest off status. All three of them will phaze Water Arceus out, but the latter two will lose if Calm Mind Refresh Water Arceus is the last Pokemon standing.

    Skeleton (open)

    Overview
    ########
    • It's an Arceus
    • Water is a very good defensive typing (2 weaknesses/4 resistances) and reasonably good offensive typing in the current format
    • Glues a lot of teams together
    • strongest 100% accurate water move
    • wide movepool
    • checks prominent bulky ground types
    • one of the best mono attackers in the game
    • Electric weakness is easily exploitable by two top threats in Zekrom and Eleceus
    • competes with Palkia as team glue
    • Hates Toxic


    Support
    ########
    name: Support
    move 1: Judgment
    move 2: Will-O-Wisp
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Defog
    item: Splash Plate
    ivs: 0 Atk
    evs: 248 HP / 164 SpD / 96 Spd
    nature: Timid

    Moves
    ========

    • Judgment: Manditory STAB with 0 drawbacks other than low PP in a pressure filled environment
    • Will-O-Wisp is to discourage Zekrom from coming in and to stop physical attackers in general
    • Recover is there to increase staying power and burn stall if necessary
    • Defog is to support the team by removing hazards/screens
    • Toxic will surprise Grasseus as well as any other bulky Pokemon that aren't immune to it
    • Grass Knot is helps check Ogre and Groudon
    • Roar prevents Waterceus from being set up on unless Ingrain or Soundproof is involved but there is no room for it usually
    • Perish Song functions the same way as Roar but can halt last mon set up sweepers and isn't affected by Ingrain

    Set Details
    ========
    • 96 Spd Timid is to outspeed base 100s
    • max HP to increase overall bulk
    • odd HP number to mess with Toxic/Burn/Hazard calculations
    • 164 SpD to take in order to make Modest Scarf Ogre's Water Spout miss a 2HKO after Stealth Rock and also helps take on other Special attackers to a lesser extent, Scarf Kyogre is the big one though. Watch out for Thunder
    • it can use 164 Def to take on Ho-Oh and the unboosted Chickens better (+2 Low Kick from Mega Chicken still OHKO's after SR keep in mind). Both spreads are very good and should be chosen based on your team
    • Minimum attack to reduce Foul Play damage

    Usage Tips
    ========
    • If you suspect Toxic on a Poke that can live one of your hits, get Waterceus out of there
    • Always scout Kyogre first before bringing Waterceus in as SpDef beats it and Specs OHKOs with Thunder after SR
    • KO a checked bulky grounds as fast as possible as a good amount of them carry Toxic
    • Use this as a bulky pivot more than anything unless damage/defogging/recovering is a priority
    • Keep this Arceus (like any support Arceus) at high health so you can continue to switch in to attacks as Waater Spouts, Brave Birds, and Low Kicks all hurt a considerable amount
    • Recover stall out a Water Spout locked scarf ogre's rain before attempting to attack it
    • I can't stress enough how badly Toxic cripples this thing, there are random Toxic users everywhere in this format so be careful.

    Team Options
    ========

    • The bulky grounds that Waterceus targets are actually amazing partners with it as long as something to take on grass types, like Ho-Oh, is around
    • Ferrothorn and Ho-Oh are excellent partners that benefit from having Waterceus as a pivot. Ferrothorn especially, because of its ability to take on Eleceus, Zekrom, and Grasseus while also serving as a secondary Kyogre check
    • Common Fairies and Blissey all act as clerics to remove status that is thrown at Waterceus
    • Heatran is a gigantic status sponge, being immune to poison and burn, and also deals with Grasseus(w/o Earthquake), Ferrothorn, and Eleceus by poisoning it
    • Rest Talk Giratina can take any status and stop Eleceus from setting up by phazing it as well as burn/phaze any Zekrom locked into Bolt Strike
    • Excadrill deserves a special mention because it can take Toxics because of its Steel typing and check Eleceus, Zekrom, and Dialga
    • Zekrom 4x resists Electric and normally resists Grass and can check Kyogre offensively unlike Waterceus


    Calm Mind
    ########
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Judgment
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Refresh / Will-O-Wisp
    item: Splash Plate
    ivs: 0 Atk
    evs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spd
    nature: Timid

    Moves
    ========

    • Calm Mind is Waterceus's best boosting move
    • Water type Judgment makes Waterceus one of the best Mono Attackers in the format
    • Recover is to heal off damage taken while setting up
    • Refresh is to heal off Toxic that would otherwise shut this set down and makes Waterceus a useful status absorber
    • Will-O-Wisp can be used to cripple Zekrom and other Physical attackers that aren't immune, but Zeke still 2HKOs with Bolt Strike even burned however. It helps to fake a Support variant early game
    • Grass Knot can be used to hit Groudon harder in the sun, to hit Rockceus, and other Water types in the sun as well. It can (but not always) 2HKO Palkia at +2 and keeps Calm Mind Kyogre at bay

    Set Details
    ========

    • 248 HP is to increase Waterceus's overall bulk
    • odd number of HP is to mess with hazard/Toxic/Burn calculations
    • Max speed Timid is to make sure that Waterceus speed ties with other CM Arceus and outspeeds everything that isn't Scarf below Base 120
    • Leftover evs in Special Attack to boost Judgment slightly
    • Minimum Attack to reduce Foul Play damage

    Usage Tips
    ========

    • This Waterceus should only start setting up late game, after Dragons, Grass Types, and Gengar are gone.
    • Don't let your opponent see Calm Mind or Refresh until these checks/counters are removed, unless you can capitalize on Waterceus's switch ins which is actually pretty easy
    • Will-O-Wisp Physical Attackers, that aren't immune to it or aren't OHKOed by Judgment, whenever possible if Waterceus is carrying it
    • Be wary of status, especially Toxic, if Waterceus isn't carrying Refresh

    Team Options
    ========

    • Once again, bulky Ground types work well with Waterceus so long as a switch in to Grass attacks is involved
    • Excadrill deserves a special mention because it can Rapid Spin away Ferrothorn's hazards, take Toxics because of its Steel typing, and check Eleceus, Zekrom, and Dialga
    • Mixed Zekrom is an excellent Ferrothorn lure so long as it doesn't land a Focus Miss while also checking SpD Kyogre
    • Ho-Oh preys on the Grass types that give Waterceus trouble and can heal off any damage they do with regenerator. Scout for Stone Edge on Grassy though
    • Forretress can clear the field for Waterceus while it and Klefki can set up Spikes to ease Arceus's sweep

    Other Options
    ########

    • Stealth Rock good on anything that gets it but other mons set it better
    • Fire Blast can take care Grass Types that Waterceus is forced to deal with but doesn't offer much coverage beyond that
    • Spacial Rend can be used on the Calm Mind set to hit all Dragons that try to switch in on Waterceus but it provides no coverage outside of this and Refresh/Will-O-Wisp are generally better anyways
    • Swords Dance got hit hard by the rain nerf and generally isn't worth running, but it is still useable.
    • Thunder Wave can be used to cripple offensive Kyogre and Palkia but it is generally inferior to Will-O-Wisp or Toxic due to Zekrom, Eleceus, and Ferrothorn being Waterceus's primary switch ins

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Palkia**: Will beat Support varients 1 on 1 if it carries Toxic or Specs + Thunder but non-rest variants must watch out for the status Waterceus carries. Offensive Palkia is beaten by Calm Mind Waterceus if it doesn't have Dragon Tail. SpD Rest variants can PP stall Judgments with Pressure

    **Electric Arceus**: Sets up on Waterceus and KOes it while only fearing the rare Toxic which will only cut its sweep short. It doesn't mind Will-O-Wisp

    **Ferrothorn**: Sets up Hazard all day everyday on Waterceus and can KO it with the Combination of Leech Seed, Power Whip, and, If Refresh isn't carried, Toxic

    **Zekrom**: can switch into and KO Waterceus but it hates Will-O-Wisp A LOT. It still has a chance to 2HKO Waterceus when burned and will always 2HKO ones without Defense investment. It is also worn down by repeated switchins to Hazards/Judgment so Arceus can outlast it easily

    **Shadow Tag Users**:
    • Mega Gengar will put an end to Waterceus 99% of the time but hates T-Wave and will go down along with Waterceus
    • Gothitelle sets up on Support variants and 2HKOs at +6 with Psyshock but is extremely shaky vs Calm Mind varients
    • Wobbuffet turns you into set up fodder for something else with Encore or Mirror Coats you into oblivion assuming Arceus isn't at +5 when Wob is brought in. It hates Toxic
    **Dialga**: The dragon resists Judgment and can Toxic, Thunder, and phaze Waterceus. It is worn down by repeated switch ins to Judgment/hazards,however, and variants without Thunder or Toxic will lose to Arceus in a last mon situation.

    **Grass Arceus**: Cannot Take on Calm Mind, Refresh variants but beats support variants 1 on 1 although it may be poisoned afterwards

    **Toxic Spam**: Random Toxic is carried on a lot of Pokemon in this format and will heavily cripple any Waterceus with out Refresh

    **Phazing**: Phazers like Giratina, SpD Kyogre, and Lugia can take boosted hits from Waterceus and the former two can Rest off status. All three of them will phaze Waterceus out. The latter two of them lose if the Calm Mind, Refresh variant is the last Pokemon standing. Specially defensive Giratina is an exception as it can PP stall Judgments even with 6 Calm Mind boosts.
    Last edited: May 6, 2014
  2. WreckDra

    WreckDra got wet...
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2012
    Messages:
    711
    Keep in mind that I just wanted to put something about Arceus-Water out there so that it doesn't go without a place holder Skeleton when the dex goes live. I am leaving this open for takeover at any time for someone who has more experience using it than me (I have only used it twice this gen and one was on a team I threw out immediately). As long as I am in control of this though, I will treat this as if it won't be taken over and change/add whatever the QC/Knowledgeable people say I should (with some discretion of course).

    Like I said in the XY Ubers Analysis Index, I just wanted to make sure this staple mon wasn't forgotten
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  3. canman98

    canman98 Licensed Barrel Rider
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2013
    Messages:
    447
    Just some things to suggest. It looks like you have the right idea.

    Why don't you just make Arc-Water's own independent CM set? Idk if it is as effective as it was last gen, but I think it goes something like this (also don't kill me if the slashing's wrong, I haven't used CM WaterArc too much):

    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Judgment
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Spacial Rend / Thunder / Fire Blast
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    nature: Timid

    Ok, pls don't be too mad if this is wrong, this is probably the most hideous set one will ever see in Ubers. CM + Judgment is obv, Recover might be very important to dick with Ogre a bit and can regain health, and idk if Fire Blast is too great of coverage. Spacial Rend + Judgment plays out similarly to Palk, as only Ferro resists Water/Dragon in the tier and its gone down a lot in usage, and someone else can run a Fire move to pave for a sweep anyway. Thunder can just hit Lugia, Kyogre, and opposing Waterceus harder, but being able to defeat non-Specially Defensive Palks easier after 2 boosts (Which isn't too hard to get due to Arcs bulk and good mono-typing) is very enticing.

    Also, some things for the support set:

    I don't really think that Waterceus needs to be too worried about Ground-types, especially since it can just Will-O every one and cripple it bar Gastrodon, so I think the Defense EVs should be moved to Special Defense to check Kyogre and just other special attackers in general better, as most of the stuff Waterceus checks (except for Ray :D) are specially oriented, and WoW rounds out the defenses.

    Finally, I think Defog should not be slashed at all, and Grass Knot go to OO, as you really want Defog in general, as Arceus is really the best user of it, and since CM would have its own set, and TWave can cripple Kyogre as you can absorb the hit naturally, and Recover off the health, so really the only relevant thing GK would hit that Judgment doesn't is Groudon in sun (Gastro doesn't count :( )

    That's pretty much all I can help you with, as I haven't used Waterceus to much.
    WreckDra likes this.
  4. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Ubers Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    2,404
    Okay before you go any farther this is what the sets should be:

    name: Support
    move 1: Judgment
    move 2: Will-O-Wisp
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Defog
    item: Splash Plate
    ivs: 0 Atk
    evs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spd
    nature: Timid

    TWave in OO (Arceus-Water's best counters are Zekrom/Eleceus/Ferrothorn who don't care about TWave), CM gets its own set, GK and Toxic in moves. Roar can go in moves too if you want.

    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Judgment
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Refresh / Will-O-Wisp
    item: Splash Plate
    ivs: 0 Atk
    evs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 Spd
    nature: Timid

    ArcWater is probably the best monoCM Arc since it can get past Ho-Oh and CM helps soften blows from Kyogre. Refresh lets you beat Toxic Ferrothorn without Leech Seed, Blissey, Toxic Palkia, random Toxic users in general, and heal off burns from Ho-Oh. WoW cripples Zekrom if it tries to come in and checks/eases setup on physical mons. Other coverage moves like SRend, Fire Blast, etc are OO at best imo.

    Zekrom should be listed first in C&C. Will comment more later since this is still WIP.
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  5. WreckDra

    WreckDra got wet...
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    TY Fireburn, your changes are in

    I'm not sure if the Defensive spread should be on the main set or the Specially Defensive one should be. Which ever one is on the main, the other will be in set details however so it won't be too bothersome either way but more input on this would be appreciated.

    My goal for tonight was to have all of the WIP markers removed and I think I have done that to the best of my ability

    Time to move this into QC and prepare for a roasting :P
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  6. malefic

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    Not QC and Fireburn has already delineated the sets p clearly but I have some remarks:
    - remove the mention of Waterceus being hard to switch in in overview. One of its main draws is that it is actually quite easy for it to switch in as mono water is a nice defensive typing with few weaknesses
    - Spacial rend is horrible and only really hits Palkia (zekrom is not switching in due to the threat of wow) and doesn't even deserve oo IMO. On the other hand grass knot is nice for hitting ogre and opposing Waterceus and should be mentioned in oo
    - distinguish the merits of using refresh/wow on the CM set. Personally I'm not a fan of wow, but it lets you fake support early on and possibly clean late game, while refresh should actually be revealed around midgame, establishing Waterceus as a boosting status absorber and forcing opponents to play carefully around it (for example, switching right into their zekrom to halt a possible sweep), meaning their switches can be capitalized on
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  7. PISTOLERO

    PISTOLERO Not a Qwilfish
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    A question to QC: Is surf better than judgment in any case this gen? The power difference is 10 rather than 5 now but pp wise it has 50% more.... I'd actually like to know this myself as I always used to run Surf in 4th and 5th gen.
    Also I think grass knot is not the worst option on arceus-water, especially if used alongside groudon - Judgments will be weak af under sun.
    Thunder wave is also quite nice to instantly cripple kyogre/palkia/even blaziken. Its hard to fit on a moveset tho, and Will-O-Wisp deters Zekrom from switching in when it wants.
    Also, palkia can easily get rid of monoattacking +6 arceus if it brings dragon tail, as at +6 judment will do less than 50% to 0hp/4spdef palkia. AV palkia takes 33%, so I think that dragon tail deaerves a mention under the **Palkia** section. Palkia despises status though, as Dragon Tail and Rest on the same set is.... difficult to say the least.
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  8. malefic

    malefic swing by for 1 more
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    More comments from me. Mention its 2 weaknesses, notably the electric weakness in overview, this is the one big letdown of mono-water typing, especially with 2 huge offensive threats in eleceus and zekrom in the tier.

    Thunder wave probably deserves oo as it is decidedly lackluster on Waterceus. Most of its switchins can shrug off paralysis with relative ease and in most cases would much rather be burned (or poisoned). Offensively we're looking at zekrom and eleceus; defensively, ferrothorn and other support arceus. Toxic, on the other hand, allows you to cripple support arceus much more effectively than wow and also hits Ho-oh, it might deserve a slash for these reasons and should minimally have its merits clearly highlighted in moves.

    Perish song is a solid candidate for a moves mention, helping nicely against (last mon) sweepers. It's particularly nice on Waterceus bc it has good defensive typing to support the move's use, and bc it *can* spare the moveslot for it, at least relative to other supportceus. Ice beam is probably oo material as well, smacking grassy and dragons, but I am not liking the move this gen.
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  9. PISTOLERO

    PISTOLERO Not a Qwilfish
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    ....? think the wording is off there
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  10. malefic

    malefic swing by for 1 more
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    *in most cases you would much prefer those pokemon burned/poisoned (hell, electrics can't even be paraed)

    :p
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  11. orch

    orch

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    Add GK to OO, since it hits palkia, don, ogre, and opposing waterceus harder than judgment. TBH, GK should be slashed in for cm set- with +1 and sr, waterceus have ~50% chance of 2hkoing palkia. Also, it foils cm ogre trying to set up on you.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
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  12. Hack

    Hack I BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY IN DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS
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    Physically defensive cleric xern is a big partner to beat toxic spam. Defog balance needs a cleric or a status sponge, so mention examples of those.
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  13. WreckDra

    WreckDra got wet...
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    malefic:

    I added your changes except Ice Beam because I think Burn hurts Zekrom and has more use in general. It also needs +4 to do any kind of damage to Giratina. Grassy isn't fazed by it either (its only a 4HKO) without boosts. I used to have GK on the main set but I forgot to add it somewhere else when I got rid of it. Very good points

    Lustrous:

    I added the Dragon Tail to **Palkia**; I blanked on this completely last night

    As far as Surf goes, there is a massive reason why to use Judgment>Surf...V
    Ho-Oh (open)

    8 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 188-224 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO

    can miss KO after rocks

    8 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Judgment vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 210-248 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 8 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Surf vs. 248 HP / 0+ SpD Ho-Oh: 342-404 (82.4 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 8 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Judgment vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 416-492 (100.2 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Missing the KO on Ho-Oh is BIG because then this happens

    252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 276-325 (62.3 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Ho-Oh kills itself and opens Waterceus up to revenge killers that come in for free

    4 Atk Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 164-192 (37 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252 Atk Mega Mewtwo X Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 223-264 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Water: 190-225 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

    LO Mewtwo, of course does, more than MMY

    I personally think this is reason enough to use Judgment over Surf all of the time on the CM set at least

    orch:

    I was thinking of adding GK to the Moves section on the CM set because i agree that it deserves more than OO but the Refresh and WoW are generally better. In fact, I think I will do this

    Hack:

    Great point, added immediately
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
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  14. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    Overview
    Make sure you focus more on the qualities it has over other Arceus formes (ie its typing, it has few weaknesses even though Eleceus and Zekrom are scary and just the right resistances to handle a lot of threats).

    Support
    Make the defensive spread the main one. Waterceus is much better at checking stuff like Blaze, Ho-Oh, Grounds, Ekiller and Kanga than Kyogre, Palkia or Yveltal. I don't think you need to mention the need for Splash Plate (it's not in any of the other analyses and the ability makes this pretty clear). Mention the importance of keeping this at high HP in Usage Tips (Low Kick, Brave Bird, Return, etc hurt a lot). Mention that even though this + Ground types are a good combo, you need something that's good against Grass-types (Ygod, Ho-Oh, Ferro). Remove MMY from Team Options (there's no great synergy and almost all teams will have a Scarfmon that can outspeed and KO Gengar anyway, and this doesn't help once Gengar Mega Evolves). I'm not sure Giratina is a great partner either, or Blaziken (Lando-T has no reason to stay in on Waterceus, all you do is force it out really). Xern shouldn't be mentioned separately (most sets are shaky against Zekrom and not necessarily great against Palkia either), just put Fairies + Blissey together for clerics + checking Palkia. Zekrom can stay though (resists Electric/Grass and pressures Kyogre, which is important since Waterceus is shaky against it), and Ferro deserves more emphasis (secondary Kyogre check again which helps, great against Eleceus/Zekrom, resists Grass too).

    Calm Mind
    Most of the Team Options stuff applies here too, although Zekrom might not deserve mention (this set handles Kyogre better and Waterceus isn't removing any Ground types, just checking them). Skarmory isn't great (overlaps in checking Ground types and compounds Electric weakness), but Klefki is a good Spiker.

    Checks & Counters
    Order:
    Palkia beats non-Refresh sets ez with Rest and Toxic, while Dtail sets can mess with Refresh and SDef Palker PP stalls CM (+6 Judgment doesn't 3HKO so it can Rest and PP stall with pressure)
    Eleceus beats all sets since it can CM along and burns don't cripple it that much
    Ferro is pretty good against all sets with Leech Seed + Toxic (+ maybe Power Whip)
    Zekrom can destroy all sets but fears switching in because WoW (it's also worn down with repeated switches unlike Waterceus)
    Shadow Tag (Gengar will usually die to take out Waterceus, especially CM, Gothi pretty much needs luck to beat CM if it switches in as Waterceus uses CM and has no chance against +2 Waterceus, Wobba beats all sets assuming you don't let Waterceus set up too much)
    Grassceus beats support but not CM+WoW unless it has Toxic (no chance vs Refresh)
    Toxic (random Toxic sucks for non-Refresh sets)
    Phazing (Giratina, SDef Ogre and kinda Lugia can check CM and the first 2 shrug off status too, but Waterceus wins if it's the last mon)

    QC: 1/3
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
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  15. Hack

    Hack I BELIEVE IN TRANSPARENCY IN DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS
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    Don't do phys def for main spread, special defense is important as you use this mon on sun teams that needs a water sponge. Phys def is still a shitty check to Blaze, Ho-oh, Grounds and Ekiller so. Using a def waterceus on sun mandates another water resist

    will comment more later
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  16. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    More specifically:

    252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water in Rain: 191-225 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 164 SpD Arceus-Water in Rain: 168-198 (37.9 - 44.6%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    You should mention this specifically as to why SpD is usually superior. I actually didn't think it made that much of a difference until I checked the calc lol, thanks for catching that Hack.

    Okay while I'm here might as well QC this:

    -You can dump Spacial Rend in OO since it gives you a damaging attack against Palkia and Zekrom for CM sets. Also it hurts Rayquaza which is neat.

    -Mention Mixed Zekrom as a partner for the CM set, it checks SDef Ogre and can lure in/kill Ferrothorn pretty efficiently.

    -Mention Excadrill as a partner, it checks Zekrom/Dialga/Eleceus very well, can set SR, spin Ferro's hazards, and can take Toxics from non-Ground mons.

    -Put in Dialga as a check, it resists Judgment and can Toxic/Thunder/phaze CM sets, though sets without Toxic/Thunder will lose to Waterceus 1 vs 1.

    Seems good otherwise.

    QC 2/3
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2014
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  17. WreckDra

    WreckDra got wet...
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    UPDATE!

    I have actually been making changes throughout the day (I had Blue Jay's changes that I thought were necessary in a few hours ago) and just forgot to say so.

    Blue Jay:

    I changed just about everything you suggested except the change Hack called you out on shortly after.
    I also left Giratina in the team options on the support set just because of how big of a status sponge it is and because of how bad of a check Waterceus is to the Blaze bros.
    Everything else I was perfectly fine and changed without doubt.

    Hack:

    Very good call, I'm glad Fireburn could back it up.

    Fireburn:

    Thank you for saving me some time doing calcs to back up either Blue Jay or Hack.
    I'm still on the fence about Spacial Rend even getting an OO slot just because of malific's point above saying that it only hits Palkia since Zekrom won't be switching in directly because of the threat of a burn, and Rayquaza won't because of this also (even with lum, Waterceus still outspeeds) but I put it in anyways until this is decided.
    Everything else was great and added immediatly.
  18. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    I discussed the Water Arceus spread in decent length with most of the active QC members and despite some mixed opinions the Specially Defensive spread was favoured somewhat. However, please emphasize that both are good spreads (if you have something else that switches into Kyogre quite decently the Defensive spread usually has more utility), that full power Modest Scarf Kyogre Water Spouts are the by far the main reason for the Specially Defensive spread and with either spread the support set is still a pretty mediocre Kyogre check (it can't hurt Kyogre much, needs to be wary of Thunders from any offensive sets and all that happens if it faces RestTalk Kyogre is PP stall and Waterceus getting burnt).
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  19. WreckDra

    WreckDra got wet...
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    I think I got it, tell me if any of this needs more emphasis though

    (edit: I completely spaced on the fact that I need to write this up :P I will do this ASAP)
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014
  20. PISTOLERO

    PISTOLERO Not a Qwilfish
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    Just out of curiosity, no SD in OO? SD Arceus-Water is fun :)
  21. WreckDra

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    I have been running calcs for that and they look quite promising at +2 with the only disappointments being:

    +2 252 Atk Arceus-Water Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zekrom: 282-334 (82.6 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252 Atk Arceus-Water Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 330-390 (65.4 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Giratina-A takes it better of course

    it does OHKO / 2HKO everything else you would want it to at +2 though, so it could be a good OO set. This is the set I was thinking of:
    Swords Dance (open)

    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Dragon Claw
    move 4: Recover
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spd
    nature: Jolly

    correct me if something is wrong here

    This does look like a solid OO mention to me, but it doesn't offer anything over E-killer beyond being able taking out bulky Ground types that aren't named Groudon and you're trading that for loss of priority ( since your STAB is only as powerful as a Silk Scarf E-Speed) and not being able to set up when the omnipresent Scarfkrom is still around. Not to mention you still have trouble vs the Giratina formes although O is reduced to a soft check providing D-Tail / Will-O doesn't miss. A well played Gira-A can still consistently stop it so the trade between this and E-killer almost seems unfair.

    I may be missing something though, so lets see what the QC thinks about this.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2014
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  22. Kejmur

    Kejmur

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    I'm not QC by any means, but I think main reason why in earlier generations it was actually viable pick was permanent rain. With it Waterfall has good 180 base power, which is technically the same as STAB Outrage while water is good offensive typing as well. Without Rain to back it up, it's really weak STAB. By the way in Platinum/HeartGold/SoulSilver Arceus gains from move tutors Aqua Tail, so I guess we have this as an option as well, as I think it needs all power it can get even for a price of accuracy.
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  23. WreckDra

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    Sorry for not responding for so long Kejmur, I wanted to have this all the way written and SD with Aqua Tail thoroughly tested before I bumped this again. But I have come to the conclusion that SD isn't worth the team / Arceus slot anymore so I decided to leave it out of here.

    This is now written and ready for QC 3
  24. WreckDra

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    conversation (open)

    [01:21] WreckDra: you are still apart of QC right?
    [01:21] shrang: of ubers, yes
    [01:23] WreckDra: if you could give waterceus a lookover some day soon, that would be great, but only if you want
    [01:23] WreckDra: it needs #3
    [01:24] WreckDra: I would just like to have it done before finals start
    [01:25] shrang: ok
    [01:27] shrang: put grass knot in moves section of support imo
    [01:27] shrang: it lets you beat kyogre a bit easier
    [01:27] shrang: also hits groudon hard
    [01:28] WreckDra: it is in OO atm but i can move it
    [01:28] WreckDra: It was something I had slashed before
    (this was me remembering stuff wrong)
    [01:29] WreckDra: and Blue Jay had me move it
    [01:29] shrang: just put it in moves section imo
    [01:29] shrang: Toxic can be used over Will-O-Wisp to surprise other support Arceus formes and Calm Mind Eleceus
    [01:29] shrang: electric arceus
    [01:29] WreckDra: yes
    [01:29] shrang: no abbreviations in analysis pls
    [01:29] WreckDra: oh
    [01:29] WreckDra: did i leave one in
    [01:29] WreckDra: woops
    [01:29] shrang: add SD to OO
    [01:31] shrang: add those and I'll approve
    [01:31] WreckDra: I was on the fence about that
    [01:31] WreckDra: SD
    [01:31] shrang: it's OO
    [01:31] WreckDra: even their
    [01:32] shrang: it's the place where you put shitty sets anyway
    [01:32] shrang: and SD waterceus isn't THAT bad
    [01:32] shrang: better than ghostceus anyway :O
    [01:32] shrang: at least ghostceus without shadow force
    [01:32] WreckDra: i tried it for a while, it dod alright but there is alot of oppertunity cot that comes with it
    [01:33] WreckDra: wow
    [01:33] WreckDra: spelling
    [01:33] WreckDra: wut is that :(

    shrang and I had a chat over PS and all of his suggestions were added:
    • Added Grass Knot to moves on the Support set
    • Removed an abbreviation that I missed while editing
    • Added Swords Dance W/ Aqua Tail to Other Options despite how much opportunity cost it has
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
  25. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Just saying you can use Waterfall on the SD set.

    Otherwise qc 3/3

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