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Archfiends: OU RMT ft. Nasty Plot Celebi

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Critical_Hax, Jul 30, 2013.

  1. Critical_Hax

    Critical_Hax

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Messages:
    136
    Introduction

    So, the upcoming Gen 6 has recently got me psyched back into competitive pokemon. But I'm sad to say I haven't played too much of Gen 5 and I'm not that familiar with the BW2 Meta. In fact, the last time I've played regularly was towards the end of Gen 4, where I was sitting top 50 in OU and top 10 in Uber, back when Smogon used Shoddy.

    I'm really not an avid stall player, nor HO, so I thought I'd try my hand at a type of Bulky Offence/Balanced Team. In my experience, all the top teams with this style have 3 elements in common; strong defensive synergy with one another, contingency plans for top tier threats and a little something unexpected that one-ups the metagame. So while scrolling through the OU tier list, I found the gem that is Nasty Plot Celebi. Seriously, once this thing's counters are removed or crippled, setting up and sweeping is fairly easy.

    As such, the team revolves around picking off Celebi's counters and weakening its checks, by using abusing the resistances and bulk of its members to switch around and neutralise threats. Therefore, a number of factors have been considered in team building, such as tolerance to residual damage and specialised support moves which can open up a Celebi sweep, or simply allow my team to outlast the other.

    Team at a Glance

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]

    Tyranitar @ Choice Band "Terrorking"
    [​IMG]
    Adamant | Sandstream
    180HP/252Atk/76Spe
    -Crunch
    -Pursuit
    -Stone Edge
    -Superpower

    Tyranitar is very useful for removing frail psychics and ghosts that could give Celebi trouble, such as Latias, Gengar and Starmie. I chose to use a very Special defensive spread to give T-tar as many switch ins as possible in the event of a weather war, or if any pursuit bait is using a lure set which beats standard T-Tars. Admittedly, there are times that the power is missed (such as OHKOing Starmie with pursuit if it stays in) and Superpower is a little weak against things such as Blissey and Ferrothorn, but so far, its served me well. I have been toying with using a slightly more offensive spread which maintains good bulk but lets me invest more into attack, so if someone could suggest a specialised spread which would help, that would be nice. Other than keeping the sand up and trapping, T-Tar's main duties are to tank special attacks if Rotom is in need of a Wish, and to "revenge kill." A bulky T-Tar can usually live through most boosted attacks which aren't Fighting or Super-Effective Stabs, and either end, or hasten a sweeper's demise.

    EDIT: This is now the Standard CBTar

    Jirachi @ Leftovers "Darkbishop"
    [​IMG]
    Impish | Serene Grace
    252HP/236Def/20Spe
    -Wish
    -Protect
    -Thunder Wave
    -Iron Head

    I can safely say that physically defensive Jirachi is AMAZING in this meta. Wish and Protect provide a way for it to keep healthy and keep physical sweepers such as Dragonite and Terrakion in check. Thunder Wave has halted many sweeps, and it makes boosting sweepers all of a sudden vulnerable to being revenged, haxed or just switched around and picked off by anything which can OHKO.
    However, Jirachi's main duty is to keep the team healthy with Wish to allow me to constanty switch around. Because breaking Jirachi is difficult without a Super Effective attack, Wish passing without U-Turn is fairly easy since every member of the team resists either Fire, Ground or both. If Jirachi's current opponent is paralysed or burned, I can usually spam Wish and protect to stall while sand whittles them down. If theres a FP on the wish turn and Jirachi is healthy, it means a free wish pass. All in all, Jirachi is by far the MVP of this team during the early and middle stages of almost every match.

    Landorus-T @ Leftovers "Deathrook"
    [​IMG]
    Adamant | Intimidate
    164 HP/156Atk/188Spe
    -Stealth Rock
    -Eathquake
    -Stone Edge
    -U-Turn

    I always like having an intimidator on my team, since the auto-growl just messes with so many physical sweepers if you're running Bulky Offence. Thankfully, Landorus-T is one such pokemon, who sports great offence, utility with Stealth-Rock and U-Turn, fairs well against residual damage and good synergy with all the other members. I felt the recommended Offensive pivot was too defensive so I opted for this more offensive spread, running enough HP to outrun Breloom, while pouring the remainder into bulk. Since Lando often forces switches, its not hard to get rocks up early, and he deals very well with most offensive rock setters, such as T-Tar, Terrakion and Garchomp, so I usually lead with him. Add to this the fact he virtually checks most phsyical sweepers on the team, he was basically an auto-add. His weaknesses to common special attacks is dealt very nicely with through Rotom and since he beats most Ground-Types one on one, its very easy to pass him Wishes and drop an intimidate if something like Garchomp wants to come in and eat a predicted T-Wave. Against stall, he hits reasonably hard when Skarmory is removed and threatens things like Tentacruel, Jirachi and Heatran. I've been thinking since its so easy to switch him in from Jirachi, a Life-Orb over lefties could be viable for the power boost I feel I need, but I honestly haven't felt he has lacking offensive with leftovers with this spread.

    EDIT: The spread now outruns the standard Bulky Gyara as well as Offensive Adamant versions, as well as the standard Toxicroak. The rest of the EVs are being played around with and I'll shift them between HP and Atk as I see fit. If anyone knows why the Standard Lando-T uses 200 HP (i.e. what KO that specifically avoids) that would help.

    Rotom-W @ Leftovers "Vilepawn"
    [​IMG]
    Calm | Levitate
    248 HP/28SpA/232 SpD
    -Hydro Pump
    -Volt Switch
    -Will-O-Wisp
    -Thunderbolt

    My answer to rain teams, Special wall and another great check to physical sweepers with WoW. The Specially defensive set is preferred since I feel Jirachi and Lando have the phsyical side mostly covered, while T-Tar could use some help for Special sweepers he can't really handle, including rain sweepers while its pouring. In addition, Rotom deals with a lot of threats which I'd otherwise be very vulnerable to, such as Mamoswine, Starmie and Keldeo. His typing is amazing for getting easy switches and buring something or gathering momentum with Volt switch. Combined with Lando, he forms a mini-Volt Turn core which I use to rack up residual damage, while he synergises very nicely with Jirachi to use as my primary defensive core. Honestly, I'm feeling discharge isn't too useful, and I mainly selected it because I felt it would be good to have the option to stay in on water types and threaten them, rather than switching out, but this has almost never come into play. As such, I want to replace it with either Light Screen, or Reflect. Light Screen would probably be to help me deal better with rain and stuff like Calm Minders while letting Jirachi Wish Pass against anything, while I feel reflect just affords Celebi more opportunities to set up and is probably useful against most non-rain teams more than Light Screen.

    Salamence @ Choice Scarf "Shadowknight"
    [​IMG]
    Naive | Moxie
    252Atk/4SpA/252Spe
    -Dragon Claw
    -Outrage
    -Eathquake
    -Fire Blast

    I wanted a revenge killer that could sweep, and also noticed I was missing a dragon pokemon since my team deals relatively well with steels. I toyed with Kyurem-B, Latias and Garchomp, but I settled on Salamence for a few reasons. Hes not vulnerable to pursuit, he gets fire coverage to break Ferrothorn and Steels without resorting to Hidden Power, packs useful resistances which make it easy to pass a wish to him, can deal with most pokemon at +1 and since this team is focused fairly heavily on durability and outlasting the opponent, theres ample opportunity for an Outrage sweep late game. Theres really not much else to say other than a fast scarfer with good offensive stats and coverage, good defensive stats and resistances is sometimes just what you need to check certain threats the rest of your team struggles with.

    Celebi @ Life Orb "Infernalqueen"
    [​IMG]
    Timid | Natural Cure
    4 HP/252SpA/252Spe
    -Nasty Plot
    -Giga Drain
    -Earth Power
    -Psychic

    At last, we come to the star of the show. Nasty Plot Celebi is hugely underatted, and seldom prepared for. The sheer amount of pokemon it can force out and set up on is ridiculous. Its counters are also very vulnerable to status, residual damage and pursuit, all of which this team provides in support. To illustrate, here are some damage calcs.

    +2 Life Orb Giga Drain v 252HP4Spd Neutral Tyranitar 88.1% - 104% : KO after SR
    +2 Life Orb Earth Power v 248 HP Neutral Scizor 74.1% - 87.5%: Chance to KO after SR
    +2 Life Orb Giga Drain v 248 HP/232SpD Calm Rotom-W 134.7% - 159.1%: Guaranteed OHKO
    +2 Life Orb Psychic v 252 HP Neutral Dragonite 82.4% - 97.2%: KO after SR
    +2 Life Orb Earth Power v 252HP/168SpD Neutral Ferrothorn 46% - 54%: Chance to 2HKO after Leftovers

    Celebi is also a great stallbreaker, since it can boost against things like Blissey and Ferrothorn, who can't really hurt it and it can shrug off status by switching out. Celebi can also check rain teams if Rotom is down and all the residual damage it takes is healed of by Giga Drain fairly easily. I've been considering using a bulkier spread with Modest to boost power, deal with rain better and would probably work to my advantage if Rotom uses a screen move.

    Any advice or suggested changes are welcome.
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
  2. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
    is an official Team Rateris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,454
    Hey Critical_Hax! I really like this team. it has great defensive synergy, and almost nothing can really break through the team on its own. Venusaur comes close, but Tyranitar can switch in as it Growths and change the weather, then you can play around it pretty easily. Agility Thundurus-T also comes close, but it has a hard time setting up to +2, and can't break through Celebi or Rotom-W without some prior damage. The one thing that poses a major threat to your team is Toxicroak. In the rain, it can OHKO everything you have at +2 between Sucker Punch, Drain Punch, and Ice Punch.

    This really isn't a major problem, though, because a simple change in your EV spread for Landorus-T can fix this issue. you say that your EVs let you out-speed Breloom, but Landorus-T can't really do anything to Breloom besides U-turn out, so that doesn't seem like an optimal speed tier to reach. I would change the EVs to 164 HP / 252 Atk / 92 Spe with a Jolly nature. This lets you outrun standard 228 speed Toxicroak and OHKO with Earthquake. It also helps you maintain more bulk than your current set, while also being faster. This does cost you some offensive power, but Landorus-T doesn't really need it in this case, since it's mainly used as an offensive pivot and a Stealth Rock setter. This EV spread also makes you faster than Gyarados, so it gives you another check to it in case Rotom-W gets weakened and you can't pass it a Wish.

    Another minor change would be to use Thunderbolt over Discharge on Rotom-W. Rotom-W already has Will-O-Wisp, and the last thing you want to do is Paralyze something like Ferrothorn when you could have burned it. Thunderbolt is more powerful, and it lowers the chance of an accidental paralysis. This still lets you fully counter SubDD Gyarados, which could otherwise be a problem for the team, and with Wish support, there's no need to run something like Pain Split.

    An optional change is to use Body Slam over Thunder Wave on Jirachi. The ability to paralyze Garchomp and Thundurus-T is much more important than having a 100% chance to paralyze things that aren't immune to it. Really, though, this is just a small nitpick. You're free to choose whichever move fits your needs more.

    This is a really cool team, and I wish you the best of luck! Let me know how the changes work out if you decide to test them!

    EDIT: Oh yeah, and I think you should use the regular spread for your Tyranitar. You already have two Pokémon deidcated to tanking special attacks, and Tyranitar need sthe extra power if it wants to be really effective. The EV Spread is 180 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Spe. It lets you outrun things like Jellicent and OHKO with Crunch. Plus, you still maintain decent bulk in the sandstorm.

    Changes
    [​IMG]
    164 HP / 252 Atk /92 Spe
    [​IMG]
    Discharge--->Thunderbolt
    [​IMG]
    Thunder Wave--->Body Slam
    [​IMG]
    180 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Spe
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
    Jaiho likes this.
  3. akuto

    akuto

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Messages:
    95
    Hey man this team looks nice, but I'm here to be a critic so don't take anything I say personal :/

    First glance-
    When I look at this team I think lead Infernape will totally bone this team, even lead Landorous, or just Landorous in general for they can outspeed/OHKO alot of your mons and if he's running HP ice you're basically screwed, rain teams will also screw you if they win the weather war, for nobody other then celebi can viably counter rain team mons, other the notorious Tornadus who will OHKO celebi due to 100 base speed. I think that special defensive ferrothorn on a rain team can wall this team if it gets leech-seed off.

    Theory's/In depth-
    Having two choice mons on your team can work out great, or can back-fire alot, especially in top ladder matches where people can predict your moves very easily. Since your t-tar has 36 attack eve's with CB he's basically equivalent to standard t-tar, pursuit will not OHKO standard latias, nor dual screen Espeon with reflect up, also superpower will not OHKO Ferrothorn so he will set up everything and will put you at a disadvantage and if he's running gyro ball he will OHKO you instead, those SPDF eve's won't save you there will they? Although i like the idea of theory-crafting t-tarr it just doesn't work with your set here. Your Rotom-w has discharge and has wilo-wisp.... I'm not understanding what you were thinking when you put that there, discharge cannot OHKO enemy standard Politoad, T-bolt will so I'm wondering if you were doing damage calcs when designing this set. Also i don't understand why he is SPDF set if your T-tar is already specially defensive, your Rotom should definitely be bulky attacker set instead of SPDF. Half your team is weak to Ice and is swept by cloyster due to the lack of priority if rotom-W has already taken battle damage, what I can suggest is change jirachi's T-wave to thunder/Thunderbolt. What i also fail to understand is why you have T-wave over body slam, ground types are way more common then ghost types and ground types can predict a T-wave and cause alot more pressure then ghost types VS Jirachi, Even with Landorous support. Celebi shouldn't have LO she should have lefties for they are alot better, if you have to switch out for wish support you lose alot of momentum, + a +2 boost.

    Changes/Suggestions-
    T-TARR-
    Replace with
    [​IMG]
    nature-Bold @leftovers
    ability-drizzle
    eve's- 252HP/252DEF/4spee
    ~Scald
    ~Perish song
    ~Protect
    ~Toxic/Icebeam
    When I said rain would work alot better for you I meant it, rain will give most of your team the power and defense they need. Perish song set gives the team Alot of leeway and momentum+Toxic residual damage or burn will put alot of pressure on the enemy team forcing switches that will work in your favor.

    JIRACHI-
    Replace T-wave with Thunder no need of explanation here.
    Replace protect with SR, for the extra damage and jirachi doesn't need protect.

    LANDOROUS T-Replace with
    [​IMG]
    Name-Gyarados
    Nature-Jolly @Leftovers
    Ability-Intimidate
    Eve's 88HP/246ATTCK/4DEF/168SPEE
    ~Substitute/Taunt
    ~Dragon Dance
    ~Waterfall
    ~Bounce
    Gyarados is the perfect replacement for L-T on this team, Gyara can support the team with ground type moves and can sweep in place of your banded T-TAR except Gyara is alot more viable, +Intimidate can make physical attackers switch out giving Gyara a free DD.
    +2 248 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Espeon through Reflect in rain: 285-336 (85.32 - 100.59%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth
    +1 248 Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Haxorus: 220-261 (74.82 - 88.77%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 248 Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 4 HP / 0- Def Hydreigon: 246-291 (75.46 - 89.26%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 248 Atk Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 181-214 (51.42 - 60.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after StYealth Rock.

    Rotom Wash-Replace Discharge with thunderbolt this does not need an explanation, I hope.

    Those are all the suggestions I have to offer, hope you find them useful :D
  4. Critical_Hax

    Critical_Hax

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2008
    Messages:
    136
    Thanks for the rates guys!

    @Halcyon of Light

    I quite like your propsed changes. I've tested them in a few games so far and I have to say, their pretty good. Using the standard CBTar has gone a long way to helping maintain offensive presence, because honestly I don't like to switch it in too much and it does function more as a revenge killer. The additional damage behind Pursuit and Superpower is certainly noticeable.

    I have to admit, I quite like the idea of Landaros functioning as a Gyarados check, especially since one tried to set up on it today and just ended up being outsped and OHKOed. I did consider Toxicroak while making this team, but I didn't feel it was that prevalent, and I didn't realise quite how powerful it is at +2 and if Lando isn't in good shape. However, I improved upon your idea slightly. Your Spread generates stats of 360 HP, 265 Speed and 389 Attack. However, since 265 Speed falls within the Lando-T's speed range with a neutral nature and he has a much larger base attack stat, it is inefficient to use Jolly. Instead, I tried using 164HP/156Atk/188Spe and this generates the same HP and Speed, but gives 401 Attack. I'm still deciding if there are any specific KOs that warrant transferring these extra points to HP, since the standard Offensive pivot uses 200HP.

    I've been testing Light Screen in Rotom-W's last slot because I agree Discharge is pretty inefficient. Light Screen hasn't really been too useful, in that it appears to be a bit of a "more win" move and not so useful when I'm struggling. I'll replace it with Thunderbolt and see how that goes.

    However, I feel Thunder Wave on Jirachi is too important to chance by switching it to Body Slam. Being able to reliably paralyze +1 Dragons is important if their not locked into outrage (or if theres sun up in the case of Dragonite).

    I've played a few games against sun teams and Venusaur was pretty easy to play around, as you suggested. Agility Thundurus-T is quite devastating if it gets a chance to set up.

    @akuto

    I can certainly see your point that this team could certainly be run as a Rain variant, since Celebi, Jirachi, Landorus and Rotom fair very well under rain. Tyranitar's purpose is to pursuit Celebi counters and stop Sun and Rain from wreaking havoc, and admittedly, it doesn't do much else but occasionally beat down a paralysed pokemon. However, I suppose in a rain variant, Scizor would serve a similar purpose.

    As a frequent player from 4th Gen, I love my Bulkygyara, and I could certainly see it functioning well with wish support and defensive synergy with Jirachi, as well as beating most of Celebi's counters as well. In that instance, I suppose I'd swap Salamence for something like Latias/Thundurus-T and remove Rotom with Jirachi running Water Pulse/Thunder. A rain version would defintiely be interesting, so I'll be sure to try it out.

    As for some minor nitpicks, sadly Celebi needs that Life Orb in order to secure some crucial KOs, and with 100 Base SpA and no boosting nature, it just doesn't have enough power at +2 to break through bulky pokemon who are still somewhat healthy. Another draw of the set is that Giga Drain heals off Life Orb recoil against pokemon which are weak to it, are weakened enough to be finished by it or can't hurt Celebi in return, allowing Celebi to retain bulk through its sweep. For instance, Keldeo's HP Ice and Starmie's Ice Beam don't hurt Celebi sufficiently to kill it without susbtantial prior damage, which simply doesn't happen due to wish, and if they try to hurt it, Celebi heals up to full with Giga Drain and KOs them. Celebi does really boost and then switch out. Rather, it tries to hit something with a coverage move, and can then be passed a wish before it attempts to clean up. Speaking of wishes, protect is quite important on Jirachi for dealing with some boosted physical attacks and healing itself up to ensure it can come in on those attacks again.
    akuto and Halcyon. like this.

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