(Archive) Small Subjective Changes Thread

Discussion in 'Archives' started by eric the espeon, Jun 1, 2009.

  1. Spenstar

    Spenstar

    Joined:
    May 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,738
    That is true, but apparently the people who prefer Fire Blast to Flamethrower for the extra power don't feel that way. A 10% drop in accuracy isn't much after all, it ain't no focus blast. Having said that, I'll go run calcs.
  2. Spenstar

    Spenstar

    Joined:
    May 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,738
    Show Hide
    Here are the calcs:

    Fire Punch:

    +2 LO Infernape > Standard Hoppowdon: 44.5% - 52.9% Scrapes a 2KO After Stealth Rock Damage

    +2 LO Infernape > Standard OU Donphan: 57.3% - 68% 2KO

    +2 LO Infernape > Support Cresselia: 38.7% - 45.9% Potential 2KO after Stealth Rock Damage

    LO Infernape > (most defensive) Torment Spiker Skarmory: 46.7% - 55.7% Potential 2KO, Guaranteed 2KO after Stealth Rock damage

    Blaze Kick:

    +2 LO Infernape > Standard Hoppowdon: 50.2% - 59.5% Guaranteed 2KO

    +2 LO Infernape > Standard OU Donphan: 64.8% - 76.6% Potential OHKO After 3 Layers of Spikes

    +2 LO Infernape > Support Cresselia: 43.9% - 52% Potential 2KO

    LO Infernape > (most defensive) Torment Spiker Skarmory: 53.9% - 63.5% Guaranteed 2KO


    Judging by the calcs, you want to go with Blaze Kick if you don't have Stealth Rock support. Due to the popular use of Spinners, (one of them being Donphan, mentioned in this set) Blaze Kick is preferable if you don't have a reliable Spin Blocker. The exception to this is against Donphan, against whom you need Spikes to OHKO on the switch after Swords Dance.

    After a dance, it's also possible that Fire Punch won't OHKO Skarmory, (not counting SR damage) but Blaze Kick will.

    None of these account for Ape after a Blaze boost, but I'll do those calcs too if you want.
  3. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,386
    Donphan is terrible, there are much better spinners so getting the OHKO on him won't matter. Also, spinners aren't that popular, as SR will still be up in the majority of battles. Finally, Infernape would much rather be using Close Combat vs Hippowdon since it's stronger and if Hippowdon is living a hit than Infernape's dying anyway, so Blaze Kick makes no difference. The only difference is Cresselia, who is easily handled by Tyranitar and Scizor.

    So so far, Fire Punch > Blaze Kick.
  4. Spenstar

    Spenstar

    Joined:
    May 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,738
    But if you're in the middle of a sweep and picked up the swords dance boost and Cress comes along, it'd be more convenient to KO it then and there than to switch to Tar or Scizor. Plus the weather is bad for Ape.

    And Skarmory is also an issue, due to Brave Bird or Phazing. Blaze Kick 2 KOs no matter what
  5. MetaNite

    MetaNite
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,510
    A +2 Fire Punch OHKOes Skarmory most, if not all, of the time anyway. And you won't have a chance to 2HKO Hippowdon or Donphan as you will be OHKOed by Earthquake. Plus, you could just as easily use Close Combat for more damage. Blaze Kick just does not give you any additional KOes but sacrifices accuracy. Fire Punch is a better option overall, being most reliable.
  6. Spenstar

    Spenstar

    Joined:
    May 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,738
    You could potentially 2KO them on the switch, and CC leaves you more vulnerable to priority later on...
  7. umbarsc

    umbarsc

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    Messages:
    1,991
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/scyther

    First and most importantly, Blastoise needs a mention as a teammate, probably on the Choice Band set. I've found that it's the best spinner to use alongside Scyther for a couple of reasons. First, when Scyther U-turns away from Steelix and Rock-types, Blastoise is the best response because it is more threatening with its STAB Surf, and can threaten the OHKO on some. Second, Blastoise can spin the most reliably because it can Yawn the ghost switch-in, and ghosts aren't immune to its STAB. Finally, and maybe most importantly, it can utilize Yawn very well to force a double switch, which Scyther capitalizes on.

    (Nitpicky stuff ahead)

    Ghosts resist bug, so they don't fear Bug Bite. Furthermore, U-turn is more commonly used than Bug Bite (and the set doesn't even run Bug Bite), so it makes more sense to make it more general ("Scyther's STAB attacks") or restructure the sentence to clarify that psychics hate uturn and ghosts hate aerial ace.

    This one's objective, but it's easier to just include it here. Froslass and Raikou are BL now.
  8. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,297
    Took care of your post umbarsc. However, I did not add in your suggestion of Blastoise as a Rapid Spinner. Donphan is already mentioned there and is still an extremely good partner to Scyther; I don't believe Blastoise is the best. Donphan destroys Rocks and Steels with STAB Earthquake, can significantly damage Ghosts with Assurance, is immune to Scyther's Electric weakness, and attracts Venusaur for Scyther to switch into, among other traits he has.
  9. Wolflare

    Wolflare

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
    15
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/jolteon

    4 HP EVs makes Jolteon's HP stat divisible by eight (which from what I recall it takes more damage from Stealth Rock), so it will best to move it to Def or SpD. Sorry if I'm incorrect.
  10. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,125
    thanks
  11. cheesesticks

    cheesesticks

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
    Messages:
    16
    Hi,

    I noticed this when I was seeing how much speed Dragonite needed to outspeed Superachi after a DD...

    The Superachi spread has 180 EVs...this means 4 are wasted as 176 EVs gives the SAME speed of 308.

    So yeah...4 wasted EVs.

    New spread should be 80HP / 252SpA / 176Spe (all the other spreads are fine, not sure why this one has those extra 4)



    Also noticed the Cleric Dancer set for Dragonite says:

    With that being said, by using an alternative EV spread with just 44 Speed EVs, Dragonite is guaranteed to outpace 176 Speed Jirachi, Jolly Lucario, and most importantly, Salamence.

    This is incorrect because with just 40 speed EVs, Dragonite reaches 309 speed after a DD, 1 point ahead of the 308 speed Jirachi. Jolly Lucario is 306, Salamence...well the only set that is relevant is the Classic Mixmence with +speed but thats in the same situation as Jirachi. I also don't know when Salamence is being taking out of Mon's analysis' but yeah....
  12. Eo Ut Mortus

    Eo Ut Mortus Elodin's #1 Fan and Ghoster
    is a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    3,425
    HP Fire on that set lowers Jirachi's Speed IV by one, so the extra Speed EVs are needed to compensate.

    Fixed, thanks.
  13. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2007
    Messages:
    3,697
    From the Belly Drum Guide. Wish+Belly Drum is illegal on Clefable, so if someone could write up a new paragraph it would be great.
  14. MetaNite

    MetaNite
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 4, 2008
    Messages:
    1,510
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/azelf

    Hi. Posting about the Colbur Berry lead. It runs 216 Speed EVs to outspeed Gengar but it can't do shit to Gengar as U-turn is 4x resisted and it is obviously immune to Explosion. The next fasted OU Pokemon beneath Gengar is Infernape, who also 4x resists U-turn and is not really something you'd be wasting a powerful Explosion on in my opinion. For this reason, I think you can drop the Speed down to 329 or 332 if you want to beat Infernape. The main advantage of doing this is you don't have to run a Timid nature with 329 Speed, but a Careful or Impish one instead. 8 HP / 140 Atk / 108 SpD / 252 Spe achieves the same Attack and HP stat but with 11 more SpD. Another thing however, I don't think the Attack EVs are necessary either, as Explosion is powerful enough already while U-turn isn't used to do damage but for its secondary affect.
  15. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,046
    I tried my hand at it:

    Clefable is able to abuse Belly Drum effectively because it has access to instant recovery in the form of Softboiled. This means Clefable can use Belly Drum one turn, and then the next few turns simply restore a decent amount of health by using Softboiled a few times. You will only need to use Softboiled more than once if your opponent decides to attack, but Clefable has the bulk to withstand an attack or two, even at 50%. After you have a satisfactory amount of health, Clefable is free to start using its STAB Double-Edge to sweep; ignoring all recoil effects due to its Magic Guard.
  16. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    4,759
    Checking and uploading that now.

    EDIT: A lot of it is worded wonky, but I rewrote all of the parts that needed it and got it uploaded. Thanks firecape.
  17. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2007
    Messages:
    5,407
    You get SR out before they can kill you. The whole point of the lead is to get SR out, and if Gengar and Infernape can take it out before it gets out Rocks it's worthless.
  18. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,297
    I've gotten a friend of mine to help confirm if this works in-game, and it does. I've added a sentence about Lock-On and Mind Reader attacking Pokemon in an invulnerable state from Dig/Dive/Bounce/Fly/Shadow Force.

    Thanks!
  19. _Freak_

    _Freak_

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2009
    Messages:
    91
    I've looked at the Magnezone SubSalac Sweeper set and I think the alternate EV spread needs more comments (or even an own set).
    I don't think that a timid nature should be suggested for this EV spread. Modest or a defensive nature would be better. Also the combination of Chargebeam, Flash Cannon and HP Grass gives you nearly perfect coverage in OU. You will lose the power of T-Bolt but that shouldn't be a big problem on a defensive set. I think that should be mentioned in the analysis.
  20. Zacchaeus

    Zacchaeus
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2009
    Messages:
    3,219
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dodrio

    I would definitely suggest putting Steel Wing as an option for Choice Band Dodrio, perhaps over Quick Attack. I know it's stupid to go out and attack Rock types with a Dodrio, but when it comes down to the wire it could really help. And one day I got very bored and did lots of damage calculations with Brave Bird versus Steel Wing on Choice Band Dodrio against Smogon sets for Rock types. Here they are:
    Show Hide

    Golem:
    Steel Wing @ Choice Band / Rock Polish - 53-64% (2HKO)
    Brave Bird @ Choice Band / Rock Polish - 34-41% (3HKO)
    Steel Wing @ Anti-Lead - 54-64% (2HKO)
    Brave Bird @ Anti-Lead - 34-41% (3HKO)
    Steel Wing @ Support / Rest Sleep Talk - 34-40% (3HKO)
    Brave Bird @ Support / Rest Sleep Talk - 21-26% (possible 4HKO)

    Solrock (unless Solrock is switching out, Steel Wing has a higher EBP than Pursuit:
    Steel Wing @ Supporter - 51-61% (2HKO)
    Brave Bird @ Supporter - 32-39% (3HKO after SR)
    Steel Wing @ Sol of Choice - 75-89% (2HKO)
    Brave Bird @ Sol of Choice - 47-57% (2HKO after SR)
    Steel Wing @ Rock Polish Sweeper - 83-98% (possible 1HKO after SR)
    Brave Bird @ Rock Polish Sweeper - 53-62% (2HKO)
    Steel Wing @ Rock Polish + Baton Pass - 75-89% (possible 1HKO after SR)
    Brave Bird @ Rock Polish + Baton Pass - 48-57% (2HKO after SR)
    Steel Wing @ Trick Room Support - 67-80% (2HKO)
    Brave Bird @ Trick Room Support - 43-51% (possible 2HKO)
    Steel Wing @ Calm Mind + Baton Pass - 54-64% (2HKO)
    Brave Bird @ Calm Mind + Baton Pass - 35-41% (3HKO)
    Steel Wing @ Suicide Lead - 83-98% (2HKO)
    Brave Bird @ Suicide Lead - 53-62% (2HKO)

    Sudowoodo:
    Steel Wing @ Choice Band - 56-66% (2HKO)
    Brave Bird @ Choice Band - 36-42% (3HKO)
    Steel Wing @ SubPuncher - 53-62% (2HKO)
    Brave Bird @ SubPuncher - 33-39% (3HKO)
    Steel Wing @ Support - 41-49% (possible 2HKO after SR)
    Brave Bird @ Support - 27-31% (possible 3HKO after SR)
    Steel Wing @ Polishwoodo - 64-76% (2HKO)
    Brave Bird @ Polishwoodo - 41-48% (possible 2HKO after SR)

    Regirock (only to be fought as a last resort):
    Steel Wing @ All sets but Rock Polish - 30-36% (possible 3HKO, guaranteed 3HKO after SR)
    Brave Bird @ All sets but Rock Polish - 20-23% (possible 4HKO after SR)
    Steel Wing @ Rock Polish - 37-43% (3HKO)
    Brave Bird @ Rock Polish - 24-28% (possible 4HKO, guaranteed 4HKO after SR)

    Steel Wing always does more damage than Brave Bird to a Rock type as long as Flying isn't super effective against the secondary type of the Rock type, such as Shuckle or Cradily. It's just something to consider
  21. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,297
    Dodrio's currently undergoing an analysis update found here. It turns out that Steel Wing is not slashed because it's a seriously bad attack in general, despite it hitting Rock-type for at least decent damage. If you disagree with the rejection of Steel Wing for whatever reason, you can bring it up in that thread, but it's not likely it will get a slash.
  22. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,297
    Got some help with adding these. All done! I also fixed your post Freak, thank you.
  23. TubaKing

    TubaKing

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2009
    Messages:
    314
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dragonite

    The Dragonite analysis in several places still talks about the advantages of the listed sets over Salamence. Seeing that Salamence is Uber now,mention of the differences between the two in an OU analysis doesn't seem appropriate anymore.

    For example:
    MixMence is not even in Salamence's analysis now that he's moved on to Ubers, but the MixNite set still makes reference to it. The Dragonite analysis in general no longer needs to focus on not being outclassed by Salamence because he is no longer allowed in Standard play. RaikouLover has a minor update in QC that was started mid-June and has not received three stamps of approval yet with some sets, I believe, in need of testing still. I'm wondering if someone with SCMS access can remove the Salamence references? A lot of this can simply be fixed by removing a sentence here and there or inputting Gyarados, Kingdra, or the appropriate Pokemon in place of Salamence until RL's update is completed.

    Thank you.
  24. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2008
    Messages:
    3,125
    the dragonite analysis is going to need to be completely redone now that dragonite is the best dragon/flying pokemon in the standard metagame.
  25. thisisnotreal

    thisisnotreal

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2010
    Messages:
    5
    Jirachi

    Jirachi can learn draco meteor through events, but it's not listed in the strategy pokedex...even though its only use is against dragon types, and ice punch is usually a better choice , it's a viable option if you know your opponent has a kingdra.

    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/jirachi/moves

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)