(Archive) Small Subjective Changes Thread

I wouldn't be comfortable switching to an imperfectly accurate move until a calculation proved it was necessary. Missing blows.
That is true, but apparently the people who prefer Fire Blast to Flamethrower for the extra power don't feel that way. A 10% drop in accuracy isn't much after all, it ain't no focus blast. Having said that, I'll go run calcs.
 
Here are the calcs:

Fire Punch:

+2 LO Infernape > Standard Hoppowdon: 44.5% - 52.9% Scrapes a 2KO After Stealth Rock Damage

+2 LO Infernape > Standard OU Donphan: 57.3% - 68% 2KO

+2 LO Infernape > Support Cresselia: 38.7% - 45.9% Potential 2KO after Stealth Rock Damage

LO Infernape > (most defensive) Torment Spiker Skarmory: 46.7% - 55.7% Potential 2KO, Guaranteed 2KO after Stealth Rock damage

Blaze Kick:

+2 LO Infernape > Standard Hoppowdon: 50.2% - 59.5% Guaranteed 2KO

+2 LO Infernape > Standard OU Donphan: 64.8% - 76.6% Potential OHKO After 3 Layers of Spikes

+2 LO Infernape > Support Cresselia: 43.9% - 52% Potential 2KO

LO Infernape > (most defensive) Torment Spiker Skarmory: 53.9% - 63.5% Guaranteed 2KO


Judging by the calcs, you want to go with Blaze Kick if you don't have Stealth Rock support. Due to the popular use of Spinners, (one of them being Donphan, mentioned in this set) Blaze Kick is preferable if you don't have a reliable Spin Blocker. The exception to this is against Donphan, against whom you need Spikes to OHKO on the switch after Swords Dance.

After a dance, it's also possible that Fire Punch won't OHKO Skarmory, (not counting SR damage) but Blaze Kick will.

None of these account for Ape after a Blaze boost, but I'll do those calcs too if you want.
 

supermarth64

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Donphan is terrible, there are much better spinners so getting the OHKO on him won't matter. Also, spinners aren't that popular, as SR will still be up in the majority of battles. Finally, Infernape would much rather be using Close Combat vs Hippowdon since it's stronger and if Hippowdon is living a hit than Infernape's dying anyway, so Blaze Kick makes no difference. The only difference is Cresselia, who is easily handled by Tyranitar and Scizor.

So so far, Fire Punch > Blaze Kick.
 
But if you're in the middle of a sweep and picked up the swords dance boost and Cress comes along, it'd be more convenient to KO it then and there than to switch to Tar or Scizor. Plus the weather is bad for Ape.

And Skarmory is also an issue, due to Brave Bird or Phazing. Blaze Kick 2 KOs no matter what
 
A +2 Fire Punch OHKOes Skarmory most, if not all, of the time anyway. And you won't have a chance to 2HKO Hippowdon or Donphan as you will be OHKOed by Earthquake. Plus, you could just as easily use Close Combat for more damage. Blaze Kick just does not give you any additional KOes but sacrifices accuracy. Fire Punch is a better option overall, being most reliable.
 
A +2 Fire Punch OHKOes Skarmory most, if not all, of the time anyway. And you won't have a chance to 2HKO Hippowdon or Donphan as you will be OHKOed by Earthquake. Plus, you could just as easily use Close Combat for more damage. Blaze Kick just does not give you any additional KOes but sacrifices accuracy. Fire Punch is a better option overall, being most reliable.
You could potentially 2KO them on the switch, and CC leaves you more vulnerable to priority later on...
 
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/scyther

First and most importantly, Blastoise needs a mention as a teammate, probably on the Choice Band set. I've found that it's the best spinner to use alongside Scyther for a couple of reasons. First, when Scyther U-turns away from Steelix and Rock-types, Blastoise is the best response because it is more threatening with its STAB Surf, and can threaten the OHKO on some. Second, Blastoise can spin the most reliably because it can Yawn the ghost switch-in, and ghosts aren't immune to its STAB. Finally, and maybe most importantly, it can utilize Yawn very well to force a double switch, which Scyther capitalizes on.

Pursuit can trap the Psychic- and Ghost-type Pokemon who frequently flee from the prospect of eating Scyther's STAB Bug Bite.
(Nitpicky stuff ahead)

Ghosts resist bug, so they don't fear Bug Bite. Furthermore, U-turn is more commonly used than Bug Bite (and the set doesn't even run Bug Bite), so it makes more sense to make it more general ("Scyther's STAB attacks") or restructure the sentence to clarify that psychics hate uturn and ghosts hate aerial ace.

Froslass, Swellow, and Raikou all sport super effective STAB attacks, while Jumpluff can come into a support move like Substitute or Swords Dance and use Encore to stall Scyther while it switches to an offensive Pokémon.
This one's objective, but it's easier to just include it here. Froslass and Raikou are BL now.
 
Took care of your post umbarsc. However, I did not add in your suggestion of Blastoise as a Rapid Spinner. Donphan is already mentioned there and is still an extremely good partner to Scyther; I don't believe Blastoise is the best. Donphan destroys Rocks and Steels with STAB Earthquake, can significantly damage Ghosts with Assurance, is immune to Scyther's Electric weakness, and attracts Venusaur for Scyther to switch into, among other traits he has.
 
Hi,

I noticed this when I was seeing how much speed Dragonite needed to outspeed Superachi after a DD...

The Superachi spread has 180 EVs...this means 4 are wasted as 176 EVs gives the SAME speed of 308.

So yeah...4 wasted EVs.

New spread should be 80HP / 252SpA / 176Spe (all the other spreads are fine, not sure why this one has those extra 4)



Also noticed the Cleric Dancer set for Dragonite says:

With that being said, by using an alternative EV spread with just 44 Speed EVs, Dragonite is guaranteed to outpace 176 Speed Jirachi, Jolly Lucario, and most importantly, Salamence.

This is incorrect because with just 40 speed EVs, Dragonite reaches 309 speed after a DD, 1 point ahead of the 308 speed Jirachi. Jolly Lucario is 306, Salamence...well the only set that is relevant is the Classic Mixmence with +speed but thats in the same situation as Jirachi. I also don't know when Salamence is being taking out of Mon's analysis' but yeah....
 
Hi,

I noticed this when I was seeing how much speed Dragonite needed to outspeed Superachi after a DD...

The Superachi spread has 180 EVs...this means 4 are wasted as 176 EVs gives the SAME speed of 308.

So yeah...4 wasted EVs.

New spread should be 80HP / 252SpA / 176Spe (all the other spreads are fine, not sure why this one has those extra 4)
HP Fire on that set lowers Jirachi's Speed IV by one, so the extra Speed EVs are needed to compensate.

Also noticed the Cleric Dancer set for Dragonite says:

With that being said, by using an alternative EV spread with just 44 Speed EVs, Dragonite is guaranteed to outpace 176 Speed Jirachi, Jolly Lucario, and most importantly, Salamence.

This is incorrect because with just 40 speed EVs, Dragonite reaches 309 speed after a DD, 1 point ahead of the 308 speed Jirachi. Jolly Lucario is 306, Salamence...well the only set that is relevant is the Classic Mixmence with +speed but thats in the same situation as Jirachi. I also don't know when Salamence is being taking out of Mon's analysis' but yeah....
Fixed, thanks.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Clefable is able to abuse its huge support movepool to end up at +6 Attack with 100% health. By using Wish the turn before belly Drumming, Clefable is able to avoid the crippling HP cut experienced by many other Belly Drummers. It can then use STAB Double-Edge to sweep; the recoil damage Double-Edge inflicts is ignored, thanks to Magic Guard.
From the Belly Drum Guide. Wish+Belly Drum is illegal on Clefable, so if someone could write up a new paragraph it would be great.
 
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/azelf

Hi. Posting about the Colbur Berry lead. It runs 216 Speed EVs to outspeed Gengar but it can't do shit to Gengar as U-turn is 4x resisted and it is obviously immune to Explosion. The next fasted OU Pokemon beneath Gengar is Infernape, who also 4x resists U-turn and is not really something you'd be wasting a powerful Explosion on in my opinion. For this reason, I think you can drop the Speed down to 329 or 332 if you want to beat Infernape. The main advantage of doing this is you don't have to run a Timid nature with 329 Speed, but a Careful or Impish one instead. 8 HP / 140 Atk / 108 SpD / 252 Spe achieves the same Attack and HP stat but with 11 more SpD. Another thing however, I don't think the Attack EVs are necessary either, as Explosion is powerful enough already while U-turn isn't used to do damage but for its secondary affect.
 

firecape

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From the Belly Drum Guide. Wish+Belly Drum is illegal on Clefable, so if someone could write up a new paragraph it would be great.
I tried my hand at it:

Clefable is able to abuse Belly Drum effectively because it has access to instant recovery in the form of Softboiled. This means Clefable can use Belly Drum one turn, and then the next few turns simply restore a decent amount of health by using Softboiled a few times. You will only need to use Softboiled more than once if your opponent decides to attack, but Clefable has the bulk to withstand an attack or two, even at 50%. After you have a satisfactory amount of health, Clefable is free to start using its STAB Double-Edge to sweep; ignoring all recoil effects due to its Magic Guard.
 

cim

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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/azelf

Hi. Posting about the Colbur Berry lead. It runs 216 Speed EVs to outspeed Gengar but it can't do shit to Gengar as U-turn is 4x resisted and it is obviously immune to Explosion. The next fasted OU Pokemon beneath Gengar is Infernape, who also 4x resists U-turn and is not really something you'd be wasting a powerful Explosion on in my opinion. For this reason, I think you can drop the Speed down to 329 or 332 if you want to beat Infernape. The main advantage of doing this is you don't have to run a Timid nature with 329 Speed, but a Careful or Impish one instead. 8 HP / 140 Atk / 108 SpD / 252 Spe achieves the same Attack and HP stat but with 11 more SpD. Another thing however, I don't think the Attack EVs are necessary either, as Explosion is powerful enough already while U-turn isn't used to do damage but for its secondary affect.
You get SR out before they can kill you. The whole point of the lead is to get SR out, and if Gengar and Infernape can take it out before it gets out Rocks it's worthless.
 
http://www.smogon.com/dp/moves/lock-on

I think something should be mentioned about the fact that Lock-On and Mind Reader allow the user to hit Pokemon that are currently "immune" to attacks due to the effects of the first turn of Dig, Fly, and Dive (I believe those are the only attacks with such an effect). If this is something that was previously unknown, I'd be glad to provide some testing (as of right now, I have had this happen with Magnet Bomb once and Screech twice during Dig after Lock-On).
I've gotten a friend of mine to help confirm if this works in-game, and it does. I've added a sentence about Lock-On and Mind Reader attacking Pokemon in an invulnerable state from Dig/Dive/Bounce/Fly/Shadow Force.

Thanks!
 
I've looked at the Magnezone SubSalac Sweeper set and I think the alternate EV spread needs more comments (or even an own set).
An alternate EV spread of 228 HP / 100 Def / 84 SpA / 96 SpD with Leftovers lets Magnezone survive four Seismic Tosses from Blissey, making it much more of a threat against stall teams.
I don't think that a timid nature should be suggested for this EV spread. Modest or a defensive nature would be better. Also the combination of Chargebeam, Flash Cannon and HP Grass gives you nearly perfect coverage in OU. You will lose the power of T-Bolt but that shouldn't be a big problem on a defensive set. I think that should be mentioned in the analysis.
 
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dodrio

I would definitely suggest putting Steel Wing as an option for Choice Band Dodrio, perhaps over Quick Attack. I know it's stupid to go out and attack Rock types with a Dodrio, but when it comes down to the wire it could really help. And one day I got very bored and did lots of damage calculations with Brave Bird versus Steel Wing on Choice Band Dodrio against Smogon sets for Rock types. Here they are:
Golem:
Steel Wing @ Choice Band / Rock Polish - 53-64% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Choice Band / Rock Polish - 34-41% (3HKO)
Steel Wing @ Anti-Lead - 54-64% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Anti-Lead - 34-41% (3HKO)
Steel Wing @ Support / Rest Sleep Talk - 34-40% (3HKO)
Brave Bird @ Support / Rest Sleep Talk - 21-26% (possible 4HKO)

Solrock (unless Solrock is switching out, Steel Wing has a higher EBP than Pursuit:
Steel Wing @ Supporter - 51-61% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Supporter - 32-39% (3HKO after SR)
Steel Wing @ Sol of Choice - 75-89% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Sol of Choice - 47-57% (2HKO after SR)
Steel Wing @ Rock Polish Sweeper - 83-98% (possible 1HKO after SR)
Brave Bird @ Rock Polish Sweeper - 53-62% (2HKO)
Steel Wing @ Rock Polish + Baton Pass - 75-89% (possible 1HKO after SR)
Brave Bird @ Rock Polish + Baton Pass - 48-57% (2HKO after SR)
Steel Wing @ Trick Room Support - 67-80% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Trick Room Support - 43-51% (possible 2HKO)
Steel Wing @ Calm Mind + Baton Pass - 54-64% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Calm Mind + Baton Pass - 35-41% (3HKO)
Steel Wing @ Suicide Lead - 83-98% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Suicide Lead - 53-62% (2HKO)

Sudowoodo:
Steel Wing @ Choice Band - 56-66% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Choice Band - 36-42% (3HKO)
Steel Wing @ SubPuncher - 53-62% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ SubPuncher - 33-39% (3HKO)
Steel Wing @ Support - 41-49% (possible 2HKO after SR)
Brave Bird @ Support - 27-31% (possible 3HKO after SR)
Steel Wing @ Polishwoodo - 64-76% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Polishwoodo - 41-48% (possible 2HKO after SR)

Regirock (only to be fought as a last resort):
Steel Wing @ All sets but Rock Polish - 30-36% (possible 3HKO, guaranteed 3HKO after SR)
Brave Bird @ All sets but Rock Polish - 20-23% (possible 4HKO after SR)
Steel Wing @ Rock Polish - 37-43% (3HKO)
Brave Bird @ Rock Polish - 24-28% (possible 4HKO, guaranteed 4HKO after SR)

Steel Wing always does more damage than Brave Bird to a Rock type as long as Flying isn't super effective against the secondary type of the Rock type, such as Shuckle or Cradily. It's just something to consider
 
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dodrio

I would definitely suggest putting Steel Wing as an option for Choice Band Dodrio, perhaps over Quick Attack. I know it's stupid to go out and attack Rock types with a Dodrio, but when it comes down to the wire it could really help. And one day I got very bored and did lots of damage calculations with Brave Bird versus Steel Wing on Choice Band Dodrio against Smogon sets for Rock types. Here they are:
Golem:
Steel Wing @ Choice Band / Rock Polish - 53-64% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Choice Band / Rock Polish - 34-41% (3HKO)
Steel Wing @ Anti-Lead - 54-64% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Anti-Lead - 34-41% (3HKO)
Steel Wing @ Support / Rest Sleep Talk - 34-40% (3HKO)
Brave Bird @ Support / Rest Sleep Talk - 21-26% (possible 4HKO)

Solrock (unless Solrock is switching out, Steel Wing has a higher EBP than Pursuit:
Steel Wing @ Supporter - 51-61% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Supporter - 32-39% (3HKO after SR)
Steel Wing @ Sol of Choice - 75-89% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Sol of Choice - 47-57% (2HKO after SR)
Steel Wing @ Rock Polish Sweeper - 83-98% (possible 1HKO after SR)
Brave Bird @ Rock Polish Sweeper - 53-62% (2HKO)
Steel Wing @ Rock Polish + Baton Pass - 75-89% (possible 1HKO after SR)
Brave Bird @ Rock Polish + Baton Pass - 48-57% (2HKO after SR)
Steel Wing @ Trick Room Support - 67-80% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Trick Room Support - 43-51% (possible 2HKO)
Steel Wing @ Calm Mind + Baton Pass - 54-64% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Calm Mind + Baton Pass - 35-41% (3HKO)
Steel Wing @ Suicide Lead - 83-98% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Suicide Lead - 53-62% (2HKO)

Sudowoodo:
Steel Wing @ Choice Band - 56-66% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Choice Band - 36-42% (3HKO)
Steel Wing @ SubPuncher - 53-62% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ SubPuncher - 33-39% (3HKO)
Steel Wing @ Support - 41-49% (possible 2HKO after SR)
Brave Bird @ Support - 27-31% (possible 3HKO after SR)
Steel Wing @ Polishwoodo - 64-76% (2HKO)
Brave Bird @ Polishwoodo - 41-48% (possible 2HKO after SR)

Regirock (only to be fought as a last resort):
Steel Wing @ All sets but Rock Polish - 30-36% (possible 3HKO, guaranteed 3HKO after SR)
Brave Bird @ All sets but Rock Polish - 20-23% (possible 4HKO after SR)
Steel Wing @ Rock Polish - 37-43% (3HKO)
Brave Bird @ Rock Polish - 24-28% (possible 4HKO, guaranteed 4HKO after SR)

Steel Wing always does more damage than Brave Bird to a Rock type as long as Flying isn't super effective against the secondary type of the Rock type, such as Shuckle or Cradily. It's just something to consider
Dodrio's currently undergoing an analysis update found here. It turns out that Steel Wing is not slashed because it's a seriously bad attack in general, despite it hitting Rock-type for at least decent damage. If you disagree with the rejection of Steel Wing for whatever reason, you can bring it up in that thread, but it's not likely it will get a slash.
 
http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/lc_speed_tiers

Misdreavus is mentioned as a Pokemon that hits 19 Speed. It has since been banned from Standard Little Cup play and should thus be removed.

+2 Krabby is not listed, and it is the most used version of Krabby.

+2 Paras is not listed, and it has seen more usage recently (thanks to EM).

+2 Chinchou is not listed, and is used enough to warrant a mention.

That's all for now. I will post again (or edit this one) if I find more.
Got some help with adding these. All done! I also fixed your post Freak, thank you.
 
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dragonite

The Dragonite analysis in several places still talks about the advantages of the listed sets over Salamence. Seeing that Salamence is Uber now,mention of the differences between the two in an OU analysis doesn't seem appropriate anymore.

For example:
Mixed Dragonite functions extremely similarly to Mixed Salamence. While Salamence generally has the advantage when it comes to using this set because of its higher Special Attack and Speed, Dragonite's unique access to Superpower, along with higher defenses overall, make him a great stallbreaker.
MixMence is not even in Salamence's analysis now that he's moved on to Ubers, but the MixNite set still makes reference to it. The Dragonite analysis in general no longer needs to focus on not being outclassed by Salamence because he is no longer allowed in Standard play. RaikouLover has a minor update in QC that was started mid-June and has not received three stamps of approval yet with some sets, I believe, in need of testing still. I'm wondering if someone with SCMS access can remove the Salamence references? A lot of this can simply be fixed by removing a sentence here and there or inputting Gyarados, Kingdra, or the appropriate Pokemon in place of Salamence until RL's update is completed.

Thank you.