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OU Are explosion teams the best offensive teams?
- Thread starter Roostur
- Start date
From my experience, there are three main ways to play offense: Boom offense, Paraspam, and Spike abusing. (BP counts too I guess, but in my mind BP is a seperate playstyle on its own along with Offense, Balance, Defense, and Stall, so it's not included here.)
Paraspam is just that - instead of exploding on potential targets, you aim to paralyze them. Several offensive mons heavily appreciate Paraspam, such as Marowak, Curse Heracross, Tentacruel, and pretty much any Belly Drum user. The benefit to this over Boom offense is that it's a much safer option, and you obviously have the Pokemon afterwards after you para'd something.
Spike abusing is when you take Pokemon like Nidoking, who are a pain to deal with offensively but just barely miss out on a lot of 2HKOs, and put a greater emphasis than normal on setting up spikes for them to abuse. Here, the spikes are used less as a source of chip damage, but more as a way to pseudo-buff an attack's power when hitting a Pokemon on the switch. Common Pokemon are Zapdos (as opposed to Raikou), Nidoking, Machamp, Tyranitar, and Gengar as spike abusers. Gengar can also boombait if your team appreciates it.
Of course, it's possible to combine all three; boom-baiting + paralysis + spikes isn't entirely out of the realm of possibility.
Paraspam is just that - instead of exploding on potential targets, you aim to paralyze them. Several offensive mons heavily appreciate Paraspam, such as Marowak, Curse Heracross, Tentacruel, and pretty much any Belly Drum user. The benefit to this over Boom offense is that it's a much safer option, and you obviously have the Pokemon afterwards after you para'd something.
Spike abusing is when you take Pokemon like Nidoking, who are a pain to deal with offensively but just barely miss out on a lot of 2HKOs, and put a greater emphasis than normal on setting up spikes for them to abuse. Here, the spikes are used less as a source of chip damage, but more as a way to pseudo-buff an attack's power when hitting a Pokemon on the switch. Common Pokemon are Zapdos (as opposed to Raikou), Nidoking, Machamp, Tyranitar, and Gengar as spike abusers. Gengar can also boombait if your team appreciates it.
Of course, it's possible to combine all three; boom-baiting + paralysis + spikes isn't entirely out of the realm of possibility.
I hate calling them "Explosion teams." My gold standard team containing all three of the above mons -- Gengar, Eggy and Cloyster -- is not an "Explosion team." It's an offensively-focused team that happens to carry a bunch of potential Exploders. I didn't set out to make an "Explosion team." Explosion is just arguably the most impactful move in the game and those are three otherwise good pokémon that happen to learn it.
Gen 2 is bulky everywhere due to everything having max stats. Sleep Talk is ubiquitous because it can activate Rest while already Resting. Boosting moves are hard to come by outside of Curse, which itself also boosts Defense, since Swords Dance is only notably learned by Marowak and there is no SpA equivalent (until Gen 3). There are no 140-power nukes with relatively low drawbacks compared to Hyper Beam's lose-a-turn. Converting damage to KOs is difficult in Gen 2. Explosion with its ridiculous 500 effective power, even if it requires your own sacrifice, is one of the only reliable ways to open up a hole in a defensive core. Even stinkers like Gengar, with its paltry base 65 Attack, does 90% to Raikou. Graduating to Eggy and Cloyster's 95 Attack, maybe using Spikes for an extra 12.5% on top, nigh guarantees you KO anything that isn't resistant and still healthy.
Marowak is the only heavy-hitter that can reliably chunk everything without suiciding. Marowak can be played in an offensive team to provide an Electric pivot and apply heavy pressure to weakened teams, but it can also have a hard stall team built around getting it in safely to decimate opponents single-handedly. Individual teams may be susceptible to less powerful attackers of other typings, such as Nidoking or Tyranitar as mentioned. Tyranitar can also chip away at fleeing defenders with Pursuit and has the stats and movepool to threaten a large list of stuff to switch out from it, or punish them for not.
Gen 2 is bulky everywhere due to everything having max stats. Sleep Talk is ubiquitous because it can activate Rest while already Resting. Boosting moves are hard to come by outside of Curse, which itself also boosts Defense, since Swords Dance is only notably learned by Marowak and there is no SpA equivalent (until Gen 3). There are no 140-power nukes with relatively low drawbacks compared to Hyper Beam's lose-a-turn. Converting damage to KOs is difficult in Gen 2. Explosion with its ridiculous 500 effective power, even if it requires your own sacrifice, is one of the only reliable ways to open up a hole in a defensive core. Even stinkers like Gengar, with its paltry base 65 Attack, does 90% to Raikou. Graduating to Eggy and Cloyster's 95 Attack, maybe using Spikes for an extra 12.5% on top, nigh guarantees you KO anything that isn't resistant and still healthy.
Marowak is the only heavy-hitter that can reliably chunk everything without suiciding. Marowak can be played in an offensive team to provide an Electric pivot and apply heavy pressure to weakened teams, but it can also have a hard stall team built around getting it in safely to decimate opponents single-handedly. Individual teams may be susceptible to less powerful attackers of other typings, such as Nidoking or Tyranitar as mentioned. Tyranitar can also chip away at fleeing defenders with Pursuit and has the stats and movepool to threaten a large list of stuff to switch out from it, or punish them for not.
What do you mean by "non explosion team"? No explosion period? I'm not really sure why you wouldn't want it at least once? It's such a great move for abusing laxs only weakness; his speed and taking him out. You can potentially have 1 explosion or 3 Pokemon as an answer for snorlax. Explosion is almost too good to turn down; 500bd move on top of it giving you a damage free switch in.
But to answer the question imo there's loads of offensive stuff in the tier that doesn't need explosion: Marowak, Machamp, rhydon, tyranitar, nidoking, and the drummers: clefable, quagsire, charizard, and of course lax.
But to answer the question imo there's loads of offensive stuff in the tier that doesn't need explosion: Marowak, Machamp, rhydon, tyranitar, nidoking, and the drummers: clefable, quagsire, charizard, and of course lax.
Some of the less common poison types and dancers can be highly offensive too if you want to surprise your opponent:
Tentacruel & Victreebell can learn Swords Dance; both can hit pretty hard with mixed attacks, Muk does surprisingly well for offense, and if you really want a swords dancer other than Marowak there's always Sandslash; he has more staying power with bulk and lefties. Swords Dance, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Counter was always the favored set for him, and really it's not bad.
Tentacruel & Victreebell can learn Swords Dance; both can hit pretty hard with mixed attacks, Muk does surprisingly well for offense, and if you really want a swords dancer other than Marowak there's always Sandslash; he has more staying power with bulk and lefties. Swords Dance, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Counter was always the favored set for him, and really it's not bad.
Well, the only teams that should be called "boom teams" are those with at least 5 booms.
A lot of offensive teams have at least 2 of Cloy + Egg + GGar + Steelix and are not based around the move Explosion. The fact that some offensive teams might rely on an exposion removing a certain threat (for example Cloy booming on Starm) does not make them a boom team
A lot of offensive teams have at least 2 of Cloy + Egg + GGar + Steelix and are not based around the move Explosion. The fact that some offensive teams might rely on an exposion removing a certain threat (for example Cloy booming on Starm) does not make them a boom team
What happens is: the high tiers of this gen have explosion and usually have good synergy in a team (egg + cloy everywhere etc). The huge factor of explosion in gsc - compared to the other gens - is not really the possibility of a kill, but the factor that it creates huge mindgames.
I mean, it's not like you are just mindlessly blowing up everything to speed up the pace of the game: instead, you are conditioning your opponent to play your game. The fact that people tend to play ultra safe with Snorlax (and with the whole team bar cloyster I guess, but especially with Lax), makes these explosion users so good at keeping this pressure. It's more of a psychological factor.
What I'm trying to say is that it's not inherently wrong to call the standard gsc offense as boom teams, but you should realize what are you trying to achieve when building a team. Most of the time you are baiting your opponent to switch, sometimes you are simply gambling for an early kill to setup whatever you want (ie: blowing raikou to sweep with vappers).
I mean, it's not like you are just mindlessly blowing up everything to speed up the pace of the game: instead, you are conditioning your opponent to play your game. The fact that people tend to play ultra safe with Snorlax (and with the whole team bar cloyster I guess, but especially with Lax), makes these explosion users so good at keeping this pressure. It's more of a psychological factor.
What I'm trying to say is that it's not inherently wrong to call the standard gsc offense as boom teams, but you should realize what are you trying to achieve when building a team. Most of the time you are baiting your opponent to switch, sometimes you are simply gambling for an early kill to setup whatever you want (ie: blowing raikou to sweep with vappers).
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
I really consider Jolteon to be the best "offensive" 'Mon in GSC. AgilityPass is your best chance of a sweep. I personally run Standard Marowak and DrumLax with AgilityPass Jolteon to have two options to attempt a sweep. Skarmory is the best option to counter both of them, but Jolteon can double as an answer to Skarmory.
So, in my opinion, Jolteon is really the premier "offensive" 'Mon. I use parenthesis because it's technically a support 'Mon, but he's so important to dedicated offense.
So, in my opinion, Jolteon is really the premier "offensive" 'Mon. I use parenthesis because it's technically a support 'Mon, but he's so important to dedicated offense.
Raikou completely destroys Jolteon BP strategy, so it is not reliable at all vs stall teams
Steelix in offensive teams is also good at stopping that strat.
Agility BP is a solid strat vs non prepared teams, but every team will have something for that (a phazer is nearly mandatory, more because ML Umb than because Jolt tho)
Steelix in offensive teams is also good at stopping that strat.
Agility BP is a solid strat vs non prepared teams, but every team will have something for that (a phazer is nearly mandatory, more because ML Umb than because Jolt tho)
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
How? Marowak and Snorlax both beat Raikou with EQ. Will it let Jolteon set up? No. But the point is to bring Jolteon into something that can't beat it 1-on-1.
lol what
jolteon comes in on whatever, likely takes a hit in the process and maybe spikes
jolteon uses (setup move), raikou comes in
jolteon uses anything and raikou roars. the chain is broken. in the worst case scenario here jolteon got a +1 thunder(bolt) on raikou. yeah the recipients of the setup move beats raikou, but...so?
you can also drypass on the switch to raikou, in which case raikous trusty skarmory partner is still there.
jolteon bpass hasnt been used by serious top tournament players for quite some time and there's a good reason. it's bad.
jolteon comes in on whatever, likely takes a hit in the process and maybe spikes
jolteon uses (setup move), raikou comes in
jolteon uses anything and raikou roars. the chain is broken. in the worst case scenario here jolteon got a +1 thunder(bolt) on raikou. yeah the recipients of the setup move beats raikou, but...so?
you can also drypass on the switch to raikou, in which case raikous trusty skarmory partner is still there.
jolteon bpass hasnt been used by serious top tournament players for quite some time and there's a good reason. it's bad.
You send Jolteon vs lets say Skarmory
You use Agility while I go to Raikou
You BP but I roar
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
While that's true, mind games are the best way to set up an Agility sweep.
Here's a replay of a match I just played against the same Raikou you mentioned. Granted, this is a mid-ladder match (by Old Meta standards), and he did make a couple noob mistakes, namely growling after Marowak had 2.5x Attack (I was predicting a Growl when I went for it.), but it still shows how you can play around the opponent to achieve a sweep.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen2ou-455893761
Stall is the name of the game in GSC, but I don't care for that style, as I find it boring, so I made this team as offensive as I reasonably could.
Jolteon isn't that bad in my opinion, it is just less flexible and requires careful timing and equally risky teammates, and the top players tend to pick less risky strategies. However, we do see BP used from time to time, which has this exact Jolteon strategy alongside Smeargle. It does work a reasonable amount of the time, sometimes even against Raikou. I am certain that all of the above posters have lost to the Smeargle Jolteon Marowak Snorlax BP more than once.
While the replay in the above post was arguably a poor example due to the opponent making numerous mistakes, it does show that teams do rely upon Raikou to handle other threats, leaving it susceptible to being low HP or paralysed, which makes the counter strategy described above a lot less reliable.
While the replay in the above post was arguably a poor example due to the opponent making numerous mistakes, it does show that teams do rely upon Raikou to handle other threats, leaving it susceptible to being low HP or paralysed, which makes the counter strategy described above a lot less reliable.
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
Sorry, Gen 2 is a fairly barren ladder, so I take what I can get. :P
But if AgilityPass is THAT easy to counter, Jolteon would not be OU.
I originally used Umbreon as well to trap an opponent, setup with Jolteon, and Sweep with Lax or Marowak, but it was way to unrealiable, because it's very difficult to find an appropriate Pokemon that can be trapped by Umbreon, and is safe to switch Jolteon into.
Edit, not trying to oversell Jolteon, but if your team is dedicated to Offense, then I would argue that Jolteon is the best for pure offense.
As I stated earlier, stall is too boring for me, and I'm just not a fan of GSC 40 minute+ Stall v. Stall. Jolteon was the Pokemon that actually makes me enjoy GSC, as I play very offensively.
Ofc, I never said Jolteon is bad lol, there is a reason why its OU.
Agility BP Jolt is a risky strat because it can be hard walled by Roar Raikou (ofc there are ways to beat it, like paralyzing or sleeping Raikou, forcing it to rest) and has trouble beating Steelix (HP water 3hkoes). However if you manage to send an Agility to a SD wak, or a BD LK lax, or even things like Machamp, Quag, Vap or Charizard you will be in a very good position.
There are still ways to beat those mons at +2 speed though: Skarm can WW all of them, Suicune can take a hit (unless lax is D-E) and Roar, Cloy can take a hit and explode... The most dangerous one is LK lax at +2, but it has another problem: it is slower than Gengar, and it could just boom at it.
Basically, Jolteon is a good example of a high risk high reward mon. My point is not that Jolteon is bad (it is not), my point is that it is not the "premiere" offensive mon because it is not consistent and its very risky. But yes, if it works it is one of the scariest offensive strats in GSC.
Some examples of BP replays:
=> a 2010 battle where I use a Jolt BP team vs cloy + skarm + rhydon + counter meganium to win. He makes a mistake mispredicting my Fire Blast though
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2ou-167782 => a wcop game where conflict destroys a bp team with roar kou + roar cune
http://pastebin.com/JpnQfDFy => Jorgen BP team vs Roar Raikou + Sleep Powder Egg + Cloy. A good example of Jolteon slowly weakening Raikou before Colchonero had a chance to set up Spikes and how given a minimal opportunity to set up because either a mistake or luck (sleep powder miss + RS flinch vs Cloy), JoltWak can be deadly.
http://pastebin.com/9BNcMXKT => Very similar MU, but this time Jorgen cant find any opportunity to set up vs Kou + Egg and can do absolutely nothing. This shows the inconsistence of this strat. With practically the same MU, in the last log Jorgen won because he managed to find a set up situation + got a bit lucky, while in this game he never had any chance.
Agility BP Jolt is a risky strat because it can be hard walled by Roar Raikou (ofc there are ways to beat it, like paralyzing or sleeping Raikou, forcing it to rest) and has trouble beating Steelix (HP water 3hkoes). However if you manage to send an Agility to a SD wak, or a BD LK lax, or even things like Machamp, Quag, Vap or Charizard you will be in a very good position.
There are still ways to beat those mons at +2 speed though: Skarm can WW all of them, Suicune can take a hit (unless lax is D-E) and Roar, Cloy can take a hit and explode... The most dangerous one is LK lax at +2, but it has another problem: it is slower than Gengar, and it could just boom at it.
Basically, Jolteon is a good example of a high risk high reward mon. My point is not that Jolteon is bad (it is not), my point is that it is not the "premiere" offensive mon because it is not consistent and its very risky. But yes, if it works it is one of the scariest offensive strats in GSC.
Some examples of BP replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen2ou-167782 => a wcop game where conflict destroys a bp team with roar kou + roar cune
http://pastebin.com/JpnQfDFy => Jorgen BP team vs Roar Raikou + Sleep Powder Egg + Cloy. A good example of Jolteon slowly weakening Raikou before Colchonero had a chance to set up Spikes and how given a minimal opportunity to set up because either a mistake or luck (sleep powder miss + RS flinch vs Cloy), JoltWak can be deadly.
http://pastebin.com/9BNcMXKT => Very similar MU, but this time Jorgen cant find any opportunity to set up vs Kou + Egg and can do absolutely nothing. This shows the inconsistence of this strat. With practically the same MU, in the last log Jorgen won because he managed to find a set up situation + got a bit lucky, while in this game he never had any chance.
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