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Are gyms holding Pokemon back?

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Chaoswalker, Oct 9, 2012.

  1. Pika25

    Pika25

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    And there was also technically a two gym split in DP (but not Pt) between your first visit to Hearthome and your battle with Fantina. A lot of trainers go Maylene before Crasher Wake, but some (like me and Pika in Diamond) battle Wake first. And each of their levels are ~30 (compared to Gardenia's 22 and Fantina's 36). (Of course, in Pt, it's always Fantina, then Maylene, then Wake. Their levels reflect that: Fantina 26, Maylene 30, Wake 36 iirc)
  2. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

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    Yeah, I really think the Gym system hurts Pokemon in the way it's set up right now.

    The idea of "beat the 8 gym leaders to challenge the League" isn't a bad idea in itself, but it is starting to get a little dated. It's standard and boring enough that I bought Black 2 and NEVER FINISHED IT. I didn't even get all 8 badges-I just stopped playing when I beat Skyla and took her plane to the other side of Unova, and then I was like,"time to explore another boring town, do another boring cave, and then fight another gym". Honestly, it should never feel like that. While Hoenn was BY FAR the most HM-dependant region, that felt fun because you would run up into some area you couldn't get through, and then you were like,"I can't get through here, I need to come back later." Even after Fortree it wasn't so linear that it was boring-sure, you had to do certain events in a specific order, but once you cleared out the Magma hideout you were free to explore. Want to go check out that random city dot at the bottom of the map? Go ahead, stock up on healing items and check it out! Want to head to Ever Grande City? It's blocked by a waterfall, I need to figure out a way to get up waterfalls! That kind of gameplay is healthy and fun.

    As for the storyline, both Mystery Dungeon games BLOW THE MAIN SERIES AWAY in terms of storyline. Yes, the gyms are a crutch which allow Game Freak to push out near-yearly entries...but soon Game Freak is going to have to make a choice between Pokemon being a yearly cash cow or Pokemon being an evocative RPG experience like Skyrim or Tales. Mystery Dungeon is more on par with those-sure, it's a side game that isn't part of the main Pokemon canon, but the story in Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky is extremely well presented and told WITHOUT being tied to a linear format like the main pokemon series. Sure, there was an order of dungeons to go through...but it wasn't just "I reached the next town, time to do a gym!" You could go do other dungeons, you could do side missions, and every time it was new and unique.

    Mystery Dungeon holds the distinction of being the only pokemon game where you can get a truly different experience on every playthrough, kind of like you can in Borderlands, Skyrim, and other RPGs and RPG/fill in genre here hybrids. If anything, the main Pokemon series should be more like PMD.
  3. Celever

    Celever

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    I would like to disagree with that. I mean, that sounds very good, but then how would they make a mystery dungeon-esque main series game? What, put gyms in for each type and put different teams on for different amounts of badges? That might work, but then once it's done it would be impossible to then make that concept original too. Pokemon is never going to get completely original, and if they do your concept once then you might be able to do it about 3 more times and then it's too old. It would give giant replay value... Well, yeah, it does seem better than the current format. But anyway, mystery dungeon is there for people who like skyrim and pokemon, the main series is for people who like that style, you know, very linear and simple, then they can play that. However, I would be far from a game like what you suggested. XD and Colosseum took a step in the right direction, and like you I never completed white 2. I was hoping white 2 would be like black and white where you didn't even need HMs to complete it! (Except for one tree you had to use cut for, ONE!) but they decided to tell you you needed surf after the last gym and I just wasn't bothered to go and catch a water pokemon just so I could surf!
  4. Redjar

    Redjar

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    I just posted this in another thread, that while I'm really a traditionalist when it comes to pokemon (in construct). I would like to see gyms based off of strategies or base stats ( a high phys atk gym for example).

    Now this doesn't fully answer the question. So

    I really like the aspects of gym leaders. I really do. It is a FANTASTIC well implemented and believable way of showing the player where to go without actually saying "hey, here is the plot. Go there", which is almost literally what other RPG's do. Pokemon is a children's game. So this gatekeeper aspect and hinting (albeit strong hinting) as opposed to mindless "go here" statements prepare children for more advanced games. I would rather not anything more complex. I truly enjoy pokemon as a kids game. I have enough "adult" (lol) games. I don't need more. The simplicity and tradition makes the game a great learning tool in my opinion.
  5. Enguarde

    Enguarde Zapper
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    I've always found an immense satisfaction in defeating Gym Leaders, as I always found myself looking forward to challenging a leader as they traditional bosses. And I mean, who doesn't love video game boss fights?

    If they made it so you could travel absolutely anywhere right from the beginning I reckon it would be extremely difficult to balance the levels as well as construct

    But I see your point about them holding potential back, I'd love to see you be able to travel in say 3 or 4 directions right from the beginning, with a classic bullshit excuse as to why you can't turn back and follow a different path after you've chosen one. The game adjust its difficulty according to your gym badges and you eventually pass through all 3 areas. With each area having 2 or 3 gyms for example.

    This would also increase replay value as you could choose a different area to start of with the next time and potentially have a very different Pokemon team and be pitted against either buffed or nerfed enemies as opposed to last time.
  6. shinyskarmory

    shinyskarmory

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    It doesn't have to be exactly like the PMD games, but it should learn from the elements that made PMD's story great. Much more so then in the regular series, you had CHARACTERS-NPCs who gave you another point of view of the world, and you could RELATE TO THEM. Anyone who's played Explorers of Time/Darkness/Sky can testify to how great it was to see your partner grow and find courage through the story, or to how they felt torn between their partner and Grovyle while they were in the future, or how they cried when their partner said goodbye to them at the end of the first half of the story. The characters drove the story instead of the other way around.

    There's no reason that Pokemon can't have a story that can appeal to both children and adults. Lots of children's storybooks do this-the Lorax, for example, is a great example of a story that means something completely different to children then it does to adults. It's definitely within the ability of GameFreak to create a compelling storyline-Drill Dozer in particular has one of the better storylines of the GBA era considering the GBA's considerable hardware constraints. We just need to see this storyline applied to Pokemon. Pokemon Black/White was 3 steps in the right direction, but then Black/White 2 was 2 steps back. It's frustrating, but since gamers have come to care more about story then they did 20 years ago, Game Freak and Pokemon in general will either adapt and survive, or keep pushing out cash cow entries until the only people who care about Pokemon are Nuzlocke players.
  7. Proc Trainer

    Proc Trainer

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    In my opinion, Pokemon Gyms actually helped progress the game along my making the player feel like they achieved something great within the game. One can also get the same feeling after trouncing the Elite Four and Champion :)
  8. Emerald Master

    Emerald Master

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    i'm kind'a mixed about this. personally i think gyms should be more gym-like, (like being able to train with NPCs ect.) but i still like the gym leader challenge

    I also think there should be a bigger post game, such as being able to take a boat to the other regions.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2013
  9. Emerald Master

    Emerald Master

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    maybe they should make pokemon a bit more like ocarina of time: as in you can go anywhere but you need certain tools that you get from the main quest
  10. Aasgier

    Aasgier

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    This thread hits the head of the nail of why I never bought a Pokémon game.

    A more open-world, or even a full world map, would be wicked.

    Gyms could be done at any order easily if the game makers want it (the game checks your Pokémon whenever you face a gym leader and selects the gym leaders Pokémon accordingly from a database), while the ingame trainers could be far more random in strength compared to the place you encounter them, and may not challenge you if your party is either too strong or too weak.
    If this would be done, I would certainly consider buying a game, but the linear go-here-and-then-there didn't appeal me since I turned six.
  11. manutdrule

    manutdrule

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    if GF changes their target audience (just for once! one game!) to teens/young adults they could probably make something more interesting and mature like zelda/openworld/non-linear story where its not just about fighting gymleaders/e4/team "whatever"

    but thats never gonna happen so too bad.
  12. NocturnalQuill

    NocturnalQuill

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    It's less gyms themselves and more the fact that they're all type specialized. If you have a type advantage over a gym, you'll blow through it no trouble at all. It would be a lot better if gyms were specialized around a strategy or theme instead (i.e. tanky pokemon, status effects, glass cannons, etc). Colosseum/XD's battles were a lot more interesting to me because almost none of the trainers revolved around types. The admins were all based on different strategies (Mirror B loved healing over time, Gorrigan was fond of protect-earthquake, etc), which made things so much more interesting. I'd love to see a fully fleshed out XD style RPG this generation. That spinoff series has so much untapped potential.
  13. Emerald Master

    Emerald Master

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    yah, gyms revolving around a strategy/stat instead of a type would be way better
  14. Gokuzbu

    Gokuzbu

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    I don't really mind, I just want hard gyms back! In X and Y they only have 3 pokemon, who are pretty weak levels to top it off. What happened to the days where you couldn't kill that darn Miltank, or the Staryu swept your team
  15. goldursaring

    goldursaring

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    There is a concept that is explored briefly in Pokemon Origins and Black/White 2 that gym leaders suit themselves to the challengers.

    I think it would be interesting to open the game up a little more and have the gym leaders toughen up based on how many badges you have.

    It would be harder to implement, and I don't know if giving full flexibility works.

    I do like the mystery in Kanto about the Viridian Gym Leader and seeing the Pokemon League. It kind of set a goal for you, especially with Spearow and the Nidorans found exclusively in that route. The game has a great sense of mystery for what is to come.

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