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Arghonaut Analysis

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by tennisace, Jan 8, 2009.

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  1. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
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    [SET]
    name: Recover Tank
    move 1: Waterfall
    move 2: Brick Break / Revenge
    move 3: Stone Edge / Ice Punch
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 36 Atk / 220 Def

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Arghonaut has all the qualities of a fantastic defensive Pokemon: a good defensive typing, great bulkiness, and an instant recovery move. This set can even switch into ridiculous offensive threats such as Dragon Dance Salamence and Swords Dance Lucario without significant risk thanks to Unaware.</p>

    <p>Waterfall is your strongest, most reliable STAB move. Brick Break also gets STAB and it hits Tyranitar and Lucario hard, but Revenge is also a good option, as it has 120 base power if Arghonaut get hit first. Stone Edge is a powerful move that hits both Salamence and Gyarados for consistent damage, but you may want to use Ice Punch if you’re afraid of not OHKOing Salamence. Toxic can also go in this slot if you want a generally crippling move for things that switch into you.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Bulk Up
    move 1: Bulk Up
    move 2: Waterfall
    move 3: Stone Edge/ThunderPunch
    move 4: Rest
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 224 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Arghonaut possesses, in addition to great defenses and good resistances, 110 base Attack and a stat-up move in Bulk Up. This set takes advantage of its offensive prowess. You switch into a Pokemon that doesn’t threaten Arghonaut and begin to Bulk Up. When you run low on health, you can use Rest to bring Arghonaut back to health. This set is recommended for late-game, as being asleep for two turns can leave you very vulnerable to powerful special attackers like Starmie or Rotom-a.</p>

    <p>Since Bulk Up boosts Arghonaut’s Defense, the EVs listed maximize its special durability. This helps a great deal against Pokemon like Rotom-a and Zapdos. However, if you’re particularly irked by Pokemon like Mamoswine and Lucario, which will hit you really hard with their neutral STAB attacks, you may use the EVs from the Recover Tank set.</p>


    [SET]
    name: Mono-Attacker
    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Bulk Up
    move 4: Waterfall
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Careful
    evs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 224 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>RestTalk Bulk Up Arghonaut can be ridiculously threatening if you don’t have a Pokemon like Celebi or Vaporeon around to stop it. It plays very much like the last set, but it sacrifices type coverage for the ability to continue its strategy even as it Rests.</p>

    <p>This set is obviously taking a page out of Swampert’s book, but Arghonaut has a few advantages over the mudfish. While Swampert doesn’t have a nasty Electric weakness to worry about, Arghonaut has a Dark resistance for switching directly into Choice Band Tyranitar and a Water resistance for coming in on bulky Waters. It also has the ability to set up on boosting foes like Gyarados, Suicune, and Revenankh with impunity thanks to Unaware. Finally, it doesn’t have a x4 Grass weakness like Swampert, and it can therefore deal with random Hidden Power Grass users much better.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubPunch
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Swagger
    move 3: Focus Punch
    move 4: Waterfall/Stone Edge
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set may look odd on the surface, but it is highly effective when paired with paralysis support. First, bring Arghonaut in on something that can't hurt it, like Tyranitar or Scizor. Then, use Substitute as they switch out. Usually the opponent will bring in a counter that hits from the special side. What you do then is use Swagger, boosting their Attack and confusing them. However, due to Unaware, the Attack boost is ignored when they attack Arghonaut, but it remains when they hit themselves in confusion. Then, if they broke your Substitute, make another one, or just attack with Focus Punch or Waterfall.</p>

    <p>The last slot is mainly for coverage. Water and Fighting STABs are slightly redundant, so you could use Stone Edge in its place to hit Flying-types and Fire-types super effectively.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>There aren't many other options, since almost everything is covered by Arghonaut's main sets. Yawn is an option to force switches, as is Roar. Taunt could be used to stop other stat-uppers but Unaware ignores the boosts anyway; however, it supports the team well. Punishment is an option to hit Psychic-types that try to stat up, such as Slowbro or Azelf, or stat-uppers in general, since Punishment still gets the power boost even with Unaware. Psych Up is an option to abuse Unaware by stealing the opponent's stat boosts and using the boosts against them, while their stat boosts don't affect Arghonaut. Psych Up also works nicely in tandem with Swagger, since Unaware ignores the stat boost on your opponent but you can still copy the +2 bonus on Attack, leaving you 2 attacks to sweep with, while the foe is still confused. Dive could be used to PP stall your opponent. Similarly, Protect can be used to stall out opponents with Toxic, or to force switches with Yawn and scout their next attack. Arghonaut also has 70 SpA and Hydro Pump, which can 2HKO the standard Skarmory with minimum SpA investment and a Life Orb, though it’s not very useful for much else. Finally, you could try to throw together a gimmicky Choice set, but be advised that mediocre offensive stats hurt it, since STAB Waterfall from Choice Band Arghonaut sometimes fails to OHKO the standard Fidgit.</p>

    [EVs]

    <p>For most sets, you should max HP, and invest in either of the defenses, depending on whether or not you are using Bulk Up. 36 Atk / 220 Def Adamant is recommended because it will get you an extra point in Attack compared to using 120 Atk / 136 Def Impish. On more offensive sets, you should invest more in Attack, possibly with some speed to outspeed key threats.</p>

    [Opinion]

    <p>Arghonaut is one of the sturdiest Pokemon around, with key resistances to common attacks, instant recovery, and a very reasonable 110 Attack. It’s also the only Pokemon other than Bibarel with the ability Unaware, which essentially ignores the opponent’s stat boosts except for Speed. This forces Pokemon to rely on unboosted attacks to bring it down, which makes Arghonaut ridiculously hard to kill. Stall and balanced teams will enjoy Arghonaut’s tendency to not die to anything and offensive teams will benefit from its ability to force switches and its reasonable offensive prowess. Whatever type of team you’re using, Arghonaut is a great choice.</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>Zapdos is an obvious response to most Arghonaut, as Thunderbolt will easily 2HKO. However, even Zapdos has to beware of Stone Edge and Ice Punch, which deal relatively large amounts of damage. The Rotom Appliances can wreak havoc with a diverse movepool consisting of Thunderbolt, Will-O-Wisp, Trick, Charge Beam, and Reflect, all of which can hinder Arghonaut's capabilities greatly. Celebi can 2HKO most Arghonaut that do not run any SpD with Grass Knot, even without any SpA investment. Likewise, Jirachi can 2HKO Arghonaut that do not run SpD EVs with Psychic. Modest Togekiss can also 2HKO Arghonaut with Air Slash, so be sure to watch out for that. Also, Life Orb Starmie is able to 2HKO any Arghonaut with Psychic and Thunderbolt and Recover any damage that is taken, although ThunderPunch will 2HKO it. However, non-Life Orb variants cannot 2HKO Careful Arghonaut. Stratagem can come in on weakened Arghonaut and kill with Technician Giga Drain, which 2HKOs while still recovering health in the process. CB Jolly Staraptor will always OHKO Arghonaut, even when Arghonaut runs max HP and Defense.</p>

    <p>Trick is definitely something to watch out for when using more defensive Arghonaut such as Restalking ones. Zen Headbutt Jirachi is also something to watch out for, as Zen Headbutt is usually a 3HKO to most Arghonaut and has an annoying 40% flinch rate, and can shrug off damage using Wish. Life Orb Adamant Metagross OHKOs Arghonaut with Zen Headbutt, and many other Metagross carry Trick. Without Life Orb, Zen Headbutt is still an obvious 2HKO. Adamant Choice Band Salamence can 2HKO any Arghonaut with Outrage even after a Bulk Up, provided they do not run too much Defense.</p>

    <p>Bulky Water-types in general are good responses to sweeper Arghonaut. For example, Vaporeon can Toxistall Arghonaut with Wish and Protect, shrugging off any damage that is done to it. Suicune with Hidden Power Electric is able to wall and kill Arghonaut provided Arghonaut does not run ThunderPunch. However, even bulky Waters have to watch out for the occasional Toxic if they cannot Rest it off.</p>

    This is done.
  2. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
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    Bippety Boppety Bump. You've all had plenty of time to test Arghonaut. In lieu of usage stats, I need some feedback on the sets posted mainly the order. I also want your opinion on the sets themselves, eg how good they are, preferably from people who have used them. The rest is good, save from opinion, where is where you guys come in: I want to know what your set does, how it does it, and how good Arghonaut is. I want a short little opinion of "What is Arghonaut" basically. If you guys can give me that I can finish this up within the week, provided you all post your experiences with Arghonaut.
  3. MapleSandwich

    MapleSandwich

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    I haven't used Argonaut much, simply because I find it similar to Swampert, only it tries to be better. It has a very similar movepool, but it gets Bulk Up instead of Curse, and an instant-recover move in Recover. However, it can't get STAB EQ or Stealth Rocks. What I'm saying is, Arghonaut is everyone's favorite bulky water without the things that made Swampert so successful. Admittedly Argo can shut down stat buffers really easily with Unaware, but we all had ways to deal with the enemy buffers beforehand, and this just turns Argo into a glorified Poliwrath with better SpDef. I'll say that it is the first Rev counter I've liked, and it works against Syclant, Stratagem, and to a lesser extent Fidgit too. I haven't found out how it counters Pyroak effectively yet.

    As for battling against Arghonaut, my opinon is mixed as to what it can do. I've usually just dealt with it by delivering an LO boosted STAB Grass or Electric attack to its face. I'm sure it can do damage, but it never gets the chance against me.
  4. polelover44

    polelover44

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    I personally use the gimmick SpecsNaut (it still works for me), but the set I've seen most is the "Cronaut", followed by the Recover Tank. The order looks good, but switch up Cronaut and Recover Tank. I still think the SpecsNaut works as a surprise move, so here it is if you want it:

    SpecsNaut
    Arghonaut @ Choice Specs
    Nature: Modest
    252 HP/252 SP. Atk/4 Spd.
    Surf
    Sludge Bomb
    HP [Electric]
    Ice Beam
  5. cyberzero

    cyberzero
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    SpecsNaut just isn't viable in comparison to ANY of the other sets. The only comparison is Tyranitar's Boah set, and even that is coming off of a 95 base Special Attack.
  6. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
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    Specsnaut is a no-go, when even CBNaut fails to OHKO a ton of stuff. Specs Fidgit has a severe lack of power WITH 20 higher base points.
  7. darkie

    darkie i didn't choose the mug lyfe
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    Exactly.
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy

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    I've been using this set.

    "BuddhaNaut"
    Chesto Berry / Leftovers
    Careful
    252 HP/252 SDef/4 def
    Stockpile
    Rest
    Toxic
    Waterfall/Zen-Headbutt

    Considering most of Argh's counters are special attackers, it makes sense to invest heavily into SDef. Waterfall is the obvious choice for the STAB and being neutral to most of his threats, while Zen-Headbutt allows it to kill Revvy, who is generally immune to toxic.

    It's still under testing, and I do prefer ZH to waterfall, to be honest, though it makes it suck against steels (who seem to be very common now. Skarm, Scizor, Jirachi, Tran, and Meta are getting a lot more play from what I've seen) and even fails to make decent hit against most psychichs, making it better for a late game sweeper once you know your opponent's team.
  9. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
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    That's actually counter-intuitive: unless the special defense EVs let you survive something notable its better to invest in Defense so you can come in on TTar easier. Why would you set up on your counters? Anyway that set really screams gimmick, especially when Bulk Up pretty much does the whole defensive boost thing better.
  10. Ziggy

    Ziggy

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    It's still under testing, I'm not even sure it's a very good set myself. So far It's been fairly sucessful. The main purpose of the SDef EV's is to stay in on things like Zapdos and Stratagem who will try to switch in on you when you've only got 1 stockpile. Try to stockpile to 3, rest and chesto up to full. Toxic anything that isn't steel and try to cripple the opposing team. I suppose cross chop would work better than Zen Headbutt against any steel types that try to switch in, but I'll have to work on that tommorow.
  11. Kamen Rider

    Kamen Rider

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    I think Aqua Jet/Mach Punch should be in the Sub set or the very least in the other options section. I notice with the focus punch set many times people will send near dead pokemon in as a sacrifice to break the sub, either anticpiating the negative priority of the punch or expecting to be faster than the relativly slow pirate. Aqua jet can finish these off and keep the sub intact.
  12. cyberzero

    cyberzero
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    I've been running a variation of Ziggy's set:

    Arghonaut @Leftovers
    Nature: Impish (+Def, -SAtk)
    EVs: 252 HP, 128 Def, 128 SpDef
    Ability: Unaware (or Avast!)

    ~Stockpile
    ~Recover
    ~Waterfall
    ~Thunderpunch/Toxic

    The EVs aren't the best, but it's generic. The set is simple: Come in on an opponents sweeper, like Tyranitar, Scizor, Stratagem, Heatran, something to that effect, and Stockpile as they switch in their counter. If you play your cards right, you'll be able to stall out against counters that you would otherwise have no chance against such as Celebi or Zapdos. Alternating Recover and Stockpile is a good way to do so, and if you can get in a Toxic, all the better. Waterfall is there for general STAB.
  13. polelover44

    polelover44

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    OK. This one isn't SpecsNaut. However, I'm surprised that this hasn't come up yet. I've been running an LO Bulky Physical Sweeper Argho w/priority.

    Arghonaut @ Life Orb
    Adamant Nature
    252 HP/252 Atk/4 Spe
    Aqua Jet/Mach Punch
    Waterfall/Cross Chop (If Mach Punch, Waterfall, vice versa)
    Stone Edge
    ThunderPunch

    This set has been working quite well for me. Able to 2HKO Fidgit without having to then switch when Salamence or Tentacruel comes in to take the Waterfalls/Aqua Jets.
  14. Yllnath

    Yllnath

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    Tennis, my set was gimmicky at best, but could you at least edit this line:
    "Psych Up is an option to abuse Unaware by stealing the opponent's stat boosts and using it against them, while their stat boosts don't affect you."
    in other options to this:
    "Psych Up is an option to abuse Unaware by stealing the opponent's stat boosts and using it against them, while their stat boosts don't affect you. Psych Up also works nicely in tandem with Swagger, since Unaware ignores the stat boost on your opponent but you can still copy the +2 bonus on attack, leaving you 2 attacks to sweep with, while the foe is still confused."

    I've also tried the recover tank and the bulk up and in my opinion, the bulk up set should be listed first. This is entirely a matter of opinion of course but I felt that even though the recover set could heal, it was just sitting there not really scoring any KOs. The Bulk Up version also has quite some longevity but at least a +1 or +2 attack nets some KOs here and there, which is greatly appreciated.
  15. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
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    I've used Drain Punch over Stone Edge on the Bulk Up set with some success. The healing it provides on top of leftovers can often save you from boosted neutral attacks and keep you healthy enough to continue your sweep.
  16. jagged_angel

    jagged_angel

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    I've been using Drain Punch on the Bulk Up set too and it's a huge help since you can run Life Orb and more or less forget about the recoil.

    I also run Aqua Jet over Waterfall since it's got decent power in the rain which is normally up on my team. Also, BU with a priority attack is great.
  17. Elevator Music

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    I'm under the impression that Toxic is better than Sleep Talk on the "Cronaut" set. It's not like Arghonaut needs a lot of help setting up anyways (I view Sleep Talk as a way of making it so your opponents can't set up on you and so you can set up easier, both of which Arghonaut doesn't need help with), and Toxic has the potential to cripple switchins like Zapdos, and actually makes it so you beat Vaporeon one on one (I think). The only thing its not going to be helpful with is facing other Arghonauts, but even with Sleep Talk its a PP war and Toxic has the same amount PP as Sleep Talk.
  18. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    I had a battle with someone who used the set
    Arghonaut @ Leftovers
    Stockpile
    Recover
    Toxic
    Waterfall

    It was impossible for my team to take down, I literally couldn't touch it. Celebi's Grass Knots were only doing around 20%, easily healed off. However, with some lucky prediction on my part, I managed to drain it entirely out of PP by switching around a lot, mainly with Celebi and Scizor.


    The Subpunch set says you should use Stone Edge to hit Fire-types super effective, but Waterfall already does that.
    Perhaps you meant Bug-types, who resist Fighting, but I wouldn't say that either, because Stone edge doesn't hit Scizor, Heracross or Forretress super-effective. It gets Syclant, but 0 HP/4 Def Syclant is cleanly OHKOed by Focus Punch anyway.
    You should even consider taking Stone Edge out as an option, since most flyers take enough damage from Waterfall. It's only things like Salamence, Gyrados and Pyroak that take considerably more, and they're not exactly the kind of thing you'd switch into Arghonaut. Starmie and Slowbro could be problematic, though, so if you do take it out of the set, still mention it in the set comments.
  19. White Ninja

    White Ninja

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    Hey I have tried two sets.I wont go over them in great detail but...

    Recover
    Brick Break
    Roar
    Waterfall
    This set basically serves as a phazer and Argonaut is damn good at it. With recover and good defenses plus unaware meaning the stat boost don't matter, he can successfully roar away most physical stat raisers.

    The other set uses unaware even more.
    It is a choice scarf set.
    Waterfall
    Brick Break
    Thunder Punch
    Ice Punch

    It is a set that kills Pokemon like Gyarados, Dragonite, Salamence (physical), Tyranitar etc that try to DD or set up on you accordingly. With this set you bypass their stat raises so you just focus on outspeeding their original speed hence the choice scarf. It can also just be used as a simple choice scarfer but he is especially useful for countering with unaware.
    Some of the more bulky sets dont always go down for a KO im pretty sure, but even with no defensive evs he can survive quite alot of onslaught. Sadly he doesnt learn fire punch to rid of scizor but his STAB waterfall can do a hefty amount where his bullet punch doesnt do much. So basically it is a stat raising counter.Works very well.

    Hope you take these sets into consideration.
  20. Infiltrator

    Infiltrator

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    This must be Cyberzero you're talking about, He's a big fan of stockpile. And he used the Gastrodon set, but used waterfall instead of surf for the physical side of the spectrum.
  21. tennisace

    tennisace another eggnog, please
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    Its not different enough for a set, but I can definitely put Roar in the Set comments on the Recover set.

    Unaware ignores all boosts except Speed, sorry. Scarf is still a gimmick due to its low speed/mediocre attack.
  22. Plus

    Plus been cookin with the sauce
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    I really don't get your description that much. Any Arghonaut in the analysis can take/wall any of the pokemon you mentioned. Physical mence, assuming you mean Adamant 252 Atk with DD Outrage and life orb, will switch out of arghonaut considering you have a reasonable amount of health. Gyara/tar have no business with any Arghonaut in the first place. Gyara is walled by Arghonaut, and Tyranitar do not do much damage against arghonaut, and they can retaliate easily with Waterfall/Brick Break. Those three you mentioned can be said for nearly any set, and I don't see why it warrants a set in that case.

    Sure, outspeeding something may be nice, but why are you going to restrict yourself to beat things you can already beat without limiting yourself to one move? I honestly don't see a point in creating a set to beat things it can beat easily even without a speed boost. Even with unaware, your opponents can still outspeed you after a speed boost, as unaware ignores that.

    So what's the point of Scarf? =\
  23. Articanus

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    This pokemon's only ability is unaware, correct? Then how does Bulk Up or Stockpile actually raise your stats when it's supposed to keep both side neutral?
  24. Ziggy

    Ziggy

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    Unaware only applies to your opponent.

    The way it's worded is your attacks ignore your opponents Def/SDef boosts, and your opponents attacks ignore their Atk/SAtk boosts.
  25. Magmortified

    Magmortified <b>CAP 8 Playtesting Expert</b>
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    [SET]
    name: Recover Tank
    move 1: Waterfall
    move 2: Brick Break / Revenge
    move 3: Stone Edge / Ice Punch
    move 4: Recover
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 36 Atk / 220 Def

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is the basic Arghonaut set. It's meant to work as a general counter for various Pokemon, such as Gyarados, Tyranitar, and Stratagem (though, beware of Giga Drain). The moves are very basic: Recover to help keep Arghonaut alive, two STABs, and Stone Edge or Ice Punch for coverage. With these, Arghonaut can deal decent damage to your opponent, as well as be an excellent defensive tank.

    The choice between Ice Punch and Stone Edge is primarily a matter of preference. Stone Edge will deal more damage to every Flying type except Salamence. While Ice Punch has a higher accuracy and can hit Grass types as well.</p>

    ^^My take on the recover tank. Personally, I think it's one of the most useful Arghonaut sets for defensive teams. There's only so many threats that you can cover, and Arghonaut works excellently as a general-purpose counter.
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