Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread (New Proposal Handling System in OP)

[Stratos]

ALTERNATIVELY

with texas's line of thinking, and what alex just said

it reminded me of what we did to Explosion and Pain Split and I feel like the same thing could be done w/ HH and Endeavor:

"When comboed, if the Pokemon does not have the energy to perform the full attack (NOT just the base EN cost) the attack fails."

along with codifying how these comboes are calculated more precisely

 

[Elevator Music]

Or, just add to the description of Endeavor that the Pokemon must have all the energy necessary to perform it.

 

[Objection]

I like Elevator Music's idea and feel it does not need discussion. Maybe we could do the same for Helping Hand?

EDIT: OK, I'm changing my vote now to a "support the proposed changes in IAR's post below and do not feel that they need discussion" vote.

 

[Its_A_Random]

ALTERNATIVELY

with texas's line of thinking, and what alex just said

it reminded me of what we did to Explosion and Pain Split and I feel like the same thing could be done w/ HH and Endeavor:

"When comboed, if the Pokemon does not have the energy to perform the full attack (NOT just the base EN cost) the attack fails."

along with codifying how these comboes are calculated more precisely

Or, just add to the description of Endeavor that the Pokemon must have all the energy necessary to perform it.

Yeah, thinking about it, it seems like a better idea than changing their CT, tbh. I mean, we calced on IRC that the max damage Mega Endeavour can do in this circumstance before failing is 36 DMG, ((6+(36÷1.75)+10+(36÷1.75))×1.75=100 EN), with a HP Gap of 28 (36÷2.25×1.75=28), so it seems like an acceptable nerf which is far better than one shotting, lol. Similar thing with Mega Helping Hand as well, so...

Just add the "Must have enough Energy" part to both Endeavour & Helping Hand, & I will support.

EDIT: New Endeavour & Helping Hands assuming updates...
[BOX]Endeavor: The Pokemon recalls the hardships of the match and tries its hardest to pound that experience into its opponent. Will not work if the user has more health than its target. Endeavor can only be used once if Endure was used that round. This move cannot be used unless the user has enough Energy to afford the resulting attack.

Attack Power: Fixed Damage = (Target HP - User HP) / 1.75 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 + (Calculated Damage / 1.75) | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Force[/BOX][BOX]Helping Hand: The Pokemon releases a bolt of blue energy, doubling the Base Attack Power of another ally’s move in the same action. The doubling occurs before the 75% Base Attack Power reduction on a spread attack. The minimum increase in Base Attack Power that can be offered by this move is six (6). The user of Helping Hand must have enough energy to use the attack or it will fail.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 4 + (Adjusted BAP of Ally's Move / 2) | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: No | Typing: Normal | Priority: 5 | CT: Passive[/BOX]

 

[Ullar]

Supporting ^ and feeling it needs no discussion

Somehow that doesn't get old

 

[EspyOwner]

Proposing that Rough Skin and Iron Barbs are reduced to 1/8th damage, as it is ingame. 1/4th damage is ridiculously high. >_>

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

This proposal is bad and you should feel bad. (Also you've provided zero justification or logical reasoning)

Do no support, no discussion

 

[Maxim]

Eh, I'm afraid I'm gonna have to agree with Texas on this one Espy

Do not support, no discussion.

 

[Stratos]

1/8th max hp per hit is, except in very strange situations, going to be greater than 1/4th dealt damage anyway. Do not support, no discussion

 

[EspyOwner]

Pwnemon it's not max HP, use logic please. Ingame it uses 1/8th max HP, I just want to translate that to recoil here.

Also glad to see everyone's taking the high road and just insulting my proposal.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Guys, remember to be respectful & refrain from making degrading remarks. Thank you.

Anyhow, this proposal, given there is no real reasoning behind it other than "1/4 damage is ridiculously high", makes me very sceptical as to why we have brought it up. Exactly why do we want to nerf Iron Barbs/Rough Skin anyway? What has either ability done to deserve a nerf? By that same logic, would you not want to nerf Rocky Helmet as well, since it deals the same recoil amount to contact attacks as well? What about the recoil effects of Iron Defence & Harden (Well, Harden is only 1/10th, but you know what I mean), should they not be nerfed as well by this logic? I mean, neither of Iron Barbs, Rough Skin & co., have really been THAT game-breaking. I personally have had no problems with either of the recoil things, & from the looks of things, nether has the majority of ASB.

Personally, as the old saying goes, "If it is not broken, do not fix it." 1/4 damage does not seem that bad, imo, so I cannot really see why we should be nerfing either of these things. Sorry mate. :/

No Support, no discussion.

 

[Dogfish44]

Re iron barbs:

What IAR said sums it up neatly - not broken, don't fix. No support, no discussion.

Re HH, Endeavour:

Make it like explosion on the EN and it's good.

 

[Geodude6]

On Iron Barbs:

Iron Barbs:

Type: Innate

When struck with a contact attack, this Pokemon’s abrasive skin causes pain to the opponent, doing 25% of the damage it received to the opponent.

Pokemon with this ability: Ferroseed, Ferrothorn.

In battle

When a Pokémon with Iron Barbs is hit with a move that makes contact, the attacker loses 1/8 of its own maximum HP, after all turn-based damage is dealt. If the user is holding a Rocky Helmet the damage will stack (dealing 7/24 of the attacker's maximum HP). The damage will repeat for multi-strike moves such as Fury Swipes and Gear Grind. If Iron Barbs causes both the user and the attacker to faint, then the attacker will faint first.

Outside of battle

Iron Barbs has no effect outside of battle

Yeah... The ASB system goes off of damage dealt, not max HP.
Do not support, move to discussion.

EDIT: See post #801

 

[Gerard]

Could we make it so Endeavor caps itself at the HP of the mon who uses it? it seems dumb that the endeavor combo can KO a mon with it, even for a combo

 

[Leethoof]

STUFF

Splash: The Pokemon flops around strongly eliciting a perception of overconfidence (or stupidity) from the trainer. While odd-looking, Splash can be used as form of propulsion. Splash can allow a Pokemon to jump quite high.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 3 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring

Splash: The Pokemon flops around strongly eliciting a perception of overconfidence (or stupidity) from the trainer. While odd-looking, Splash can be used as form of propulsion. Splash can be used as a +1 Priority evasive attack. If evasive Splash is combined with a Damaging Evasive move, the evasive portion of the attack gets +2 Priority, and the BAP is increased by 4.

Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: N/A | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring

Electrode now learns Discharge.

Color Change: (Can Be Activated)

A Pokemon with this ability can change its type to that of any attack that has damaged it within the past three (3) actions. It can remain as that type for the duration of the battle, or use Color Change again to change type. When Kecleon uses Camouflage to change its type, its entire body changes color, giving it a one (1) stage boost in evasion. This effect lasts for six (6) actions. Subsequent uses of Camouflage refresh this effect.

Color Change: (Can Be Activated)

A Pokemon with this ability can change its type to that of any attack that has damaged it within the past three (3) actions. It can remain as that type for the duration of the battle, or use Color Change again to change type. When Kecleon uses Camouflage or Reflect Type to change its type, its entire body changes color, giving it a one (1) stage boost in evasion. This effect lasts for six (6) actions. Subsequent uses of Camouflage refresh this effect. All Kecleon learn Camouflage, even if they do not learn it through other means.

 

[Dogfish44]

RE: All 3 of the above (Electrode, Colour Change, Splash):

Do Not Support, no discussion.

 

[Objection]

I agree with Dogfish44 about Electrode and Colour Change. I do not support either of those and do not feel that they need discussion.

With Splash, I also do not support the proposed version, but I do feel like discussing how to make Splash useful in ASB has some merit to it. Then again, maybe we could just let Deck add some combo clause to it.

EDIT @ below: Kecleon gets Mimic. It can obtain Camouflage via Mimic if another active pokemon has it.

 

[waterwarrior]

Electrode gets a definite no without discussion from me. Should it learn Discharge? Probably. But Flareon should learn Flare Blitz too.

However, I think a discussion should be put in place about Color Change. While I can see a lot of people disagreeing with it because its giving a Pokemon a move, at the same time, why is the bit about Camouflage there if Kecleon can't learn it in the first place? IMO, it's kinda like putting "when this Pokemon uses Judgement, it raises all stats by 1 rank" in Levitate's description.

EDIT: @ Objection, a grand total of 9 Pokemon learn Camouflage. 4 of those are NFE, and the only one that commonly sees use is Starmie. Sayong as Camouflage isn't very useful, unless you're in Doubles with a Camouflage user as a partner and you take a full action to get Camouflage on Kecleon, it can't get the move, so I still think that sentence should be deleted or Color Change should give Camouflage to Kecleon

EDIT: I would like Splash to have some evasive properties, but not to the extent proposed. I don't support it in its current form, but discussion might be nice

 

[Yarnus of Bethany]

Discharge - No, no discussion
Splash - no, discussion
Camoflague - yes, discussion

 

[Leethoof]

Discharge was a joke, Color Change was mostly pointing out the silliness of having to mimic Camouflage to get the benefit (I actually recommend changing it to Reflect Type, and keeping everything else the same), but I still feel Splash needs actual discussion. We've made most other "useless" moves have viable effects, why should we leave out the king of uselessness?

 

[SimonSays]

Offering what I consider to be an inconsistency with a few abilities.

Iron Barbs/Rough Skin Example: Machamp vs. a Druddigon. On one turn it uses Ice Punch, the second Fire Punch. Apart from typing, both attacks are identical. Yet Machamp receives more return damage from the Super-effective hit.

Volt Absorb/Water Absorb/Dry Skin Example: Surf is used against a Lanturn and a Quagsire. Both of them are drenched in identical volumes of water, but Quagsire recovers more health. Similar thing with a Surf targeting Mollux and Toxicroak.

This is an inconsistency that doesn't quite follow logic, and I feel should at the very least be discussed. I would suggest that these abilities deal with the BAP of moves targetting them, rather than the final damage, to be consistent. Perhaps also changing the multiplier?

Re Endeavour/Helping Hand: Support changing to CT: None, move to Discussion.
Re Splash: Support, move to Discussion
Re Colour Change: Do not Support, move to Discussion

 

[Ragnarokalex]

Splash - it wont be the king of useless if we give it a use @.@ i vote we leave it at the laughable thing it is

Iron Barbs/Rough Skin - I actually visited this thought a while back but never thought to actually bring it up to anybody, I really think we should take a look at this and iron it out a little more

 

[EspyOwner]

Regarding Simon's proposals: Support, move to discussion.

 

[Glacier Knight]

move splash to discussion please

I don't approve or disapprove of leethoof's splash fix, but I would like splash to have some beneficial use.

 

[Geodude6]

Splash: Not for nor against, BUT FEELS THAT THIS WARRANTS DISCUSSION
Electrode: 2 words: HELL NO!
Camouflage: Support, no discussion.

Will post an alternative Iron Barbs proposal later. While the current system makes little sense, 1/8 max HP recoil seems ridiculously OP'd.