Data ASB Viability Rankings (Mark II)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Triple post, D rank has been split. D+ should be those with minor niches in the competitive game like Volbeat, D is generally favourites, and D- are those that are subpar, but not bad enough for E.

I guess you guys can discuss now? Opinion is greatly appreciated regardless because this list is kinda imperfect hahaha.
 
One notable change I would suggest from a quick glance is the movement of Lapras to a higher rank (perhaps C??).

The high amounts of coverage with Lappy as well as above average stats and a fair amount of support as well as a good number of winnable match ups due to its large HP stat gives it significant edge over many pokemon in the D+ and C- ranks.

More on Lapras to come as well as my thoughts on some more pokemon when I get a better look at this.
 

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
Agreed. Freeze Dry, Perish Song, and that very high HP gives it a very good niche - and Subway will probably mentionn Red Card Sheer Cold in due course. Not sure where it should end up, but C seems perfectly reasonable.
 
Imo Smeargle should be higher than it is, since it has literally every move in the game, giving it quite a large range of niches. It's something of a Jack-of-all-Trades, although there are some things it excels at. One cool thing is the ability to Imprison EVERYTHING (not at once, but if you forget to sub for it it's gg, and even if you do sub for it you can get screwed). Also it gets every OHKO move, which can be fun in combos, in addition to being the only pokemon that anyone has (until somebody catches an Articuno) with both an OHKO move and Lock-On or Mind Reader. This is on top of getting every possible shenanigan, such as Encore, Crafty Shield, Fake Out, Torment, etc., for major sub eating.

Another fun thing to note is that there are only 10 FE pokemon that can successfully Taunt a well-trained Smeargle with 3 subs- (Mega) Gengar, Froslass, +Spe Chandelure, Mismagius, Kitsunoh, Alakazam, Crobat, +Spe Glalie, Mienshao, and Sawk. (Note that Smeargle can stop Taunts with Crafty Shield, P/E, Magic Coat, Quick Guard (If Prankster), Fake Out (Assuming no ghost-type or Inner Focus, and only once), faster DE, faster Taunt, faster Imprison, faster Sleep-inducing moves, and various hax-based methods. Or, you know, a Mental Herb)

It is held back by being super squishy and having zero offensive presence outside of OHKO combos and Berserk Gene, though. Counter, Mirror Coat, Bide, and Metal Burst (when slower) counteract this somewhat but not fully. I'm thinking around a B- or C+ or so for Smeargle, although you could really put it anywhere because the usefulness of Smeargle is incredibly variable based on how many moves it has (to a MUCH greater extent than other pokemon). Also it's really difficult to train a Smeargle to competitive levels, you need a lot of moves, and UC dumping Smeargle is really inefficient.
 
Last edited:
Imo Smeargle should be higher than it is, since it has literally every move in the game, giving it quite a large range of niches. It's something of a Jack-of-all-Trades, although there are some things it excels at. One cool thing is the ability to Imprison EVERYTHING (not at once, but if you forget to sub for it it's gg, and even if you do sub for it you can get screwed). Also it gets every OHKO move, which can be fun in combos, in addition to being the only pokemon that anyone has (until somebody catches an Articuno) with both an OHKO move and Lock-On or Mind Reader. This is on top of getting every possible shenanigan, such as Encore, Crafty Shield, Fake Out, Torment, etc., for major sub eating.

Another fun thing to note is that there are only 10 FE pokemon that can successfully Taunt a well-trained Smeargle with 3 subs- (Mega) Gengar, Froslass, +Spe Chandelure, Mismagius, Kitsunoh, Alakazam, Crobat, +Spe Glalie, Mienshao, and Sawk. (Note that Smeargle can stop Taunts with Crafty Shield, P/E, Magic Coat, Quick Guard (If Prankster), Fake Out (Assuming no ghost-type or Inner Focus, and only once), faster DE, faster Taunt, faster Imprison, faster Sleep-inducing moves, and various hax-based methods. Or, you know, a Mental Herb)

It is held back by being super squishy and having zero offensive presence outside of OHKO combos and Berserk Gene, though. Counter, Mirror Coat, Bide, and Metal Burst (when slower) counteract this somewhat but not fully. I'm thinking around a B- or C+ or so for Smeargle, although you could really put it anywhere because the usefulness of Smeargle is incredibly variable based on how many moves it has (to a MUCH greater extent than other pokemon). Also it's really difficult to train a Smeargle to competitive levels, you need a lot of moves, and UC dumping Smeargle is really inefficient.
Ahem

At this point we have no idea what Smeargle does considering no one has a maxed Smeargle. Or even a Smeargle with 1/7 of its movepool. Based on theorymon alone I'd put it at C- maybe since lol those stats but it has some high-powered moves and support. Right now though I feel it should probably go into "needs testing" considering how no one has one.

It's been used fairly well in battle facilities though.
 
fucking caps why can't they show up on veekun searches

My Smeargle has just over 1/7 of it's movepool :<

But yeah, it's all theorymons at this point until I feel confident enough to bring my Smeargle to a tourney match or certain pair of gyms. Still, though, Smeargle's support capabilities are not to be underestimated.
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Lapras is going to C and Smeargle is going to C, the former based on what is already mentioned and the latter based on its support capabilities (its main form of offence—OHKO combinations w/ support—is a bit of a gimmick however).

Keep them coming.
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Archiving and locking up the XY list into one of the reserved posts. You may start theorymonning about the new ORAS additions now.
 
Delphox got a ton of new moves, that are pretty useful.

Namely, shock wave (more reliable move vs those waters), Magic Coat, Foul Play, and snatch.

This may warrant it's moving up to c- rank, but we haven't seen it used that much.

EDIT: Also, Mega gallade for A++ / S rank, Mega Beedrill for A- rank
 
Last edited:

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Here are my provisional rankings for each of the new mega evolutions:
  • Mega Altaria: B — Needs more testing however
  • Mega Audino: C — A better normal Audino and can be a legitimate threat
  • Mega Beedrill: C+ — Very dangerous and fast but very fragile
  • Mega Camerupt: A- — Very impressive force but has flaws that confine it to A-.
  • Mega Gallade: A+ — Could go S but is only a Gallade with +2 Attack and +30 Speed.
  • Mega Glalie: C+ — Strong Refrigerate attacker
  • Mega Lopunny: B — Unresisted STAB coverage, very dangerous and crazy utility.
  • Mega Metagross: B+ — Not that much better than normal Metagross but really dangerous.
  • Mega Pidgeot: C — No Guard buff and a dangerous Special attacker but has competition.
  • Mega Sableye: B+ — Opportunity cost is very real here as this is inferior to Everstone Sableye, Magic Bounce is not enough to justify using it.
  • Mega Salamence: B+ — Not the broken force it is in competitive, still has to deal with competition against Dragonite, Ice-type attacks cream it but dangerous.
  • Mega Sceptile: C+ — Fastest mon in the game, unique typing but a generally useless ability and a crippling weakness to Ice.
  • Mega Sharpedo: C- — Could even be D+, no attack upgrade over regular Sharpedo hurts it big time.
  • Mega Slowbro: A- — Maybe even A, the inability to be crit and the sharp increase in Defence really helps it.
  • Mega Steelix: B+ — Basically a LO Steelix without recoil but weak special coverage. Defence buff and weight increase helps though.
  • Mega Swampert: C+ — Finally a legitimate reason to use Swampert over other Water/Grounds but a crippling weakness to grass and reliance on rain for speed hurts.
Opinions?
 
Even with my inexperience, I feel like i should contribute something so.....here goes

As one of the few Beedrill owners in ASB, I feel Mega Beedrill warrants a rise to B-. Packing a Gen 1 Movepool means it has access to those quirky moves like Bide, Reflect to help his piss poor Defenses. It can hit stupidly hard thanks to r6 attack and adaptability. It packs high powered Attacks in Bug STAB boosted Pin Missile and Poison Sting. Access to Super Cool Comboes involving Twineedle, Pin Missile, and Poison Sting allows it to hit very hard as well. 100/2/3 isnt so bad if you can get a Reflect Up. I feel Mega Beedrill is very underrated and I'm probably the only one advocating this.

tl;dr: Mega Beedrill to B-
 

Frosty

=_=
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Camerupt could go to A, I think, as those stats and ability turn it into a very good tank. Reasonably bulky and a fucking nuke to boot. Still, testing is nice.

Megallade is just gallade with +2atk and some extra speed and no item. Expert Belt Gallade has around the same power (a bit less, but not much, especially if it goes the special side too) and the change in speed doesn't matter much. Gallade doesn't have many moves with low acc and encore and trick room make it handle things just fine with 80 speed. A+ rank is good enough, I agree with you.

MegaMetagross can probably be bumped to A-. Tough Claws + 6atk = real power (equal to the power of Zard-X) and 6 Def and 4 SpD is not to be scoffed either. We haven't seen it in action, so it may be wise to consider any ranking with a grain of salt, but I feel the major boost warrants having it on a A rank, even if only A-.

MegaSableye does have opportunity cost, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that Everstone Sableye is always superior. Mega Sableye defeats faster pranksters, mental herb mons and many counters to regular Sableye (as well as the option of taunting it through ordering last and/or great subs/doubles). Also it is immune (not to damage of course) to the omnipresent Knock Off. Sableye's main perk never was its offensive power, but also the potential for trickery and, in that regard, mega sableye is better. Sure, regular sableye, if no knock off, can deal more damage in the end and is probably the better option more often, but I feel Mega Sableye isn't at all overclassed and is very useful on many occasions...more than most may think and its mere possibility will make players second guess their strategies to counter regular sableye, which is nice (not to mention that not having to be worried about encore shenaningans on doubles and/or when ordering first is lovely.). I would put it on A- or A for starters.

agree on all others.
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
MegaSableye does have opportunity cost, but I wouldn't go as far as to say that Everstone Sableye is always superior. Mega Sableye defeats faster pranksters, mental herb mons and many counters to regular Sableye (as well as the option of taunting it through ordering last and/or great subs/doubles). Also it is immune (not to damage of course) to the omnipresent Knock Off. Sableye's main perk never was its offensive power, but also the potential for trickery and, in that regard, mega sableye is better. Sure, regular sableye, if no knock off, can deal more damage in the end and is probably the better option more often, but I feel Mega Sableye isn't at all overclassed and is very useful on many occasions...more than most may think and its mere possibility will make players second guess their strategies to counter regular sableye, which is nice (not to mention that not having to be worried about encore shenaningans on doubles and/or when ordering first is lovely.). I would put it on A- or A for starters.
I should have responded earlier but with regards to the bolded part, can you please list these Pokémon that counter Sableye that now lose to Mega Sableye? I am struggling to find one Pokémon who does.

In terms of Prankster mons it now "beats", this is mostly unchanged. Murkrow is not viable in ASB. Sableye is a mirror match-up. Power Lens Volbeat now gets a Tail Glow off before being Taunted (i.e. gogogogopunishment). Illumise cannot be taunted anyway but is not relevant enough. Mega Banette trolls you with Skill Swap but generally loses anyway. Liepard is not common enough but loses the Taunt war. Whimsicott loses the Taunt war but can still fire off Moonblast. Tornadus and Thundurus are legendaries. Klefki and Meowstic do not have Taunt anyway but the matchups are unchanged. Finally Fidgit has Skill Swap to bypass Magic Bounce but otherwise, it is Fidgit.

I will not deny the Mental Herb part and the rest of your post is okay. However it does not convince me that it should go up to the A ranks, especially when I cannot see which relevant mons that beat normal Sableye now lose to Mega Sableye.
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Mega Altaria: B
Mega Audino: C
Mega Beedrill: B-
Mega Camerupt: A
Mega Gallade: A+
Mega Glalie: C+
Mega Lopunny: B
Mega Metagross: A-
Mega Pidgeot: C
Mega Sableye: B+
Mega Salamence: B+
Mega Sceptile: C+
Mega Sharpedo: C-
Mega Slowbro: A-
Mega Steelix: B+
Mega Swampert: C+

To generate some discussion I want discussion for now to solely focus on those in the S and A+ Ranks and go down from there to really get these ranks sorted out (Basically look at all mons in S and A+ and see where they need to go if they really need to move).
 
Holy crap, just noticed Rotom-W's position.

Never see it. Is it really that good to be on A Rank, above Tomohawk and Bronzong?


Porygon-Z might be a bit too high as well, but again, i havent seen much of it in action.
 

Frosty

=_=
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I am not sure Megagengar deserves a rank above regular gengar. The only difference caused by the Mega-Evolution was +2SpA and +1Def (and more speed, but Gengar was already pretty fast regardless). Shadow Tag isn't that big of a thing on ASB as it is ingame and since Gengar needs to megaevolve to use it, the opponent will have an easier time avoiding unconfortable situations either by counterswitching, initiating a switch phase or using U-Turn and the like when ordering last. I don't see, in ASB, the "OH SHI-" scenario Shadow Tag provides ingame.

There isn't much Mega Gengar can beat that regular Gengar can and the same pokemon that give Gengar a hard time will give Mega gengar a hard time too. Personally I feel it should be treated like Megagallade: same rank of its non-mega form, as it doesn't add that much to the regular form and there is usually a pokemon that can actually benefit more from being mega on one's team.
 

Texas Cloverleaf

This user has a custom title
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Imo Shadow Tag increases significantly in worth as the format increases. Manipulating control of the switching in doubles and triples can create a far more significant advantage than it can in singles.
 
I feel that Greninja probably could do with a rise to A rank due to the addition of ORAS tutors, namely Gunk Shot and Low Kick to a lesser extent, which allow it to muscle through Pokemon like Azumarill and Pyroak that previously would have given it trouble.
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I will set an example I suppose to try and generate discussion:

Dragonite: Fine in S.
Mega Gardevoir: Best mon in game imo, S.
Mega Gengar: I feel S Rank is justified. Shadow Tag is not a real game breaker for it but the natural attack rise and speed tier rise to no longer tie with brats like Kitsunoh make it a very strong Pokémon. Mega Evolution is basically a superior Rare Candy on it and the oppo cost of using it is not really that high imo. Also the ability to control switches in higher formats is quite useful.
Sableye: Fine in S.
Mega Charizard X: Fine in A+ though S is debatable.
Cyclohm: Fine in A+.
Gallade: Fine in A+.
Mega Gallade: Fine in A+ though S is debatable.
Gardevoir: Fine in A+.
Gengar: Fine in A+.
Mega Lucario: Not sold on A+ to be honest. While outspeeding 110's, Adaptability and offences are strong, its typing does not strike me out as really good. IMO dropping it to A would be more appropriate for it.
Necturna: Not sold on A+. Reliant on sketched move and otherwise does not have great coverage, her support movepool is okay and 81 speed is a great stat to have. I am not convinced it should be in A+ however.
Pyroak: Because of Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer nerf, this is not good enough for S anymore and as a result is fine in A+.
Snorlax: TBH, I do not really find Snorlax to be very impressive and it is reliant on neutral STAB's to deal damage but 130 HP is great and all. Not sure if it should stay in A+ though.
 
>rare candy gengar

That said I agree with Mega Gengar in S. Since this is mostly looking at Singles performance, and most serious matches are 3v3+, Shadow Tag is pretty damn good. Its movepool and power already puts it at A+, and Mega Gengar is basically just a direct upgrade of Gengar.

Mega Gallade for A+. It's barely stronger than EBelt on an SE physical hit (0.5 BAP difference) and weaker on SE special hits (which is most of Gallade's movepool). Mega Gallade is useful if you want to spam strong neutral STABs, or if you have facing a Knock Off spammer, or if you have nothing else to use your Mega slot on, but imo that's not enough to make it a rank above normal Gallade.

I think Necturna should be A+ if only since Soak allows it to get STAB SE Horn Leech on any Pokemon not named Arceus, and also removes their STAB (unless they're already Water-type). On top of a few other cool moves it gets (like WoW and Torment idr if it gets Torment). Plus I can't really think of any move I'd rather have over Soak tbh, maybe Sacred Fire or Encore or something.
 
I don't think Mega Charizard is worth the S. It's best STAB causes recoil which it really hates since this causes that neutral or even favorable matches (ex. against pokemon such as Gardevoir or Pyroak) turn against him as he has to damage race against itself and the opponent. It's other STABs are all either much weaker (Fire Punch/Dragon Claw) or cause you to be trapped and cause Confusion (Outrage). It's typing is great though, and it has solid bulk (even though it's got to sacrifice some to nature because of how balanced it's stats are) and it's ability to decide between forms can be very useful when sending out second.
 
Disclaimer: Built these up over time, and these are just my opinions that I am throwing around for discussion. Will post more later.

Rotom-W - Doesn't fit in A Rank as it doesn't win (neutral/disadv) 1v1 Match-ups as often as Mr. Mime, Regular Lucario, Tomohawk, Porygon2 afaik. It has decent bulk and mediocre offensive moves, but Inaccurate High Powered Stabs, Lower offensive threat as compared to others may seem to warrant it a position in B+ Rank instead.

Starmie - It would have been great when Greninja was not around, But with Greninja clearly taking the role of a faster water type with its Niche Protean ability. Starmie has seen little to no-use in competitive ASB (If that is a thing @_@, I mean Gyms and Tournaments, I haven't seem Starmie in Raids or TLRs even). 8/10 People will prefer to go with Greninja over Starmie if given the choice. So may be they need to swap positions?

Chandelure - I am relatively new to ASB, but I want to contest Chandelure's position in B+. Reason being, No way Chandelure falls in the same category as Conkeldurr, Camerupt, Aggron, Nidoking and Aromatisse. If someone who uses Chandelure could explain its offensive/defensive niche it would be great. I like Chandelure in Competitive battling, also it is really good in TLRs and Raids as a Flash Fired, Sun Boosted, Fire Spammer. But I am not sure about battles like Gyms(Except Fire/Ghost) and Tournaments.

Carracosta - Also contesting the reason why Carracosta is B- with Kecleon, Metagross, Druddigon, Mega Blastoise. I feel that Carracosta is a decent pokemon with great bulk and abilities and with decent power. But I do not see its Niche outside of Shell Smash. And most users prefer a -ve Speed nature on him. 54 Speed with a -ve Speed nature holding a Cover Fossil, or 68 Speed after Shell Smash and no Fossil, or 135 with a Shell Smash and a Cover Fossil. Mediocre with no item, decent with Cover Fossil, Cool with Shell Smash. But not all 1v1s would allow him to setup a Shell Smash as most mons have ways to negate the boost by Taunt, Encore, Phazing moves and the likes. Still a good place for him in B-, I think Clawitzer and Carracosta can safely switch Ranks too?

Summary:
(V) Rotom-W - B+ Rank
(V) Starmie - B+ Rank | (Λ) Greninja - A- Rank
(V) Chandelure - B Rank
(V) Carracosta - C+ Rank
 

Texas Cloverleaf

This user has a custom title
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I don't think Mega Charizard is worth the S. It's best STAB causes recoil which it really hates since this causes that neutral or even favorable matches (ex. against pokemon such as Gardevoir or Pyroak) turn against him as he has to damage race against itself and the opponent. It's other STABs are all either much weaker (Fire Punch/Dragon Claw) or cause you to be trapped and cause Confusion (Outrage). It's typing is great though, and it has solid bulk (even though it's got to sacrifice some to nature because of how balanced it's stats are) and it's ability to decide between forms can be very useful when sending out second.
Don't underestimate it's coverage with tough claws, against Pyroak it's going to be using Fly a reasonable amount of the time and Iron Tail/Steel Wing against megavoir
 
Mega Gallade for A+. It's barely stronger than EBelt on an SE physical hit (0.5 BAP difference) and weaker on SE special hits (which is most of Gallade's movepool). Mega Gallade is useful if you want to spam strong neutral STABs, or if you have facing a Knock Off spammer, or if you have nothing else to use your Mega slot on, but imo that's not enough to make it a rank above normal Gallade.
This is a bit nitpicky, but Gallade most definitely has a mainly physical movepool. I agree with the rest of the assessment, although being able to speed tie Kit and such is important too.
Physical types with >=8 BAP moves: Bug, Dark (Knock Off is only 10 BAP once and 7 afterwards but still), Dragon (Technically 4 BAP, but Dual Chop hits twice), Electric, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Ground, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Rock
Special types with >=8 BAP moves: Bug, Electric, Fairy, Fighting (Focus Miss), Ghost, Grass (vs WC >=4 opponents), Normal, Psychic

Also Greninja and Kecleon don't get hit SE by Necty's Horn Leech :P

Carracosta - Also contesting the reason why Carracosta is B- with Kecleon, Metagross, Druddigon, Mega Blastoise. I feel that Carracosta is a decent pokemon with great bulk and abilities and with decent power. But I do not see its Niche outside of Shell Smash. And most users prefer a -ve Speed nature on him. 54 Speed with a -ve Speed nature holding a Cover Fossil, or 68 Speed after Shell Smash and no Fossil, or 135 with a Shell Smash and a Cover Fossil. Mediocre with no item, decent with Cover Fossil, Cool with Shell Smash. But not all 1v1s would allow him to setup a Shell Smash as most mons have ways to negate the boost by Taunt, Encore, Phazing moves and the likes. Still a good place for him in B-, I think Clawitzer and Carracosta can safely switch Ranks too?
Shell Smash is actually pretty bad, only +4 damage and the ability to outspeed a select few pokes in return for a turn and taking 2 extra damage. The real reason to use Carracosta is Solid Rock+Sturdy (+Focus Sash, if so inclined) which makes Carracosta a pain to break through.

As for why Greninja is B+, well...
 

Its_A_Random

A distant memory
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
Stick to discussing Pokémon in the S and A+ Ranks for now as directed in the thread title; any discussion for those not in S or A+ will be ignored so save those arguments for until we get there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top