1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Ask a Dreamy Question Get a Dreamy Answer

Discussion in 'Dream World' started by Zephyr, Jan 23, 2012.

  1. Omicron

    Omicron
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,042
    @The above poster, I moved your post here, as it seemed more appropriate here.

    To answer your question, in the DW metagame, unreleased abilities and egg moves are all available, as long as they aren't illegal, such as a previous generation tutor move conflicting with a DW ability or whatnot. So yes, Baton Pass is allowed.
  2. mailanbr

    mailanbr

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2011
    Messages:
    36
    Okay. Now let's say for whatever reason a female Torchic/Combusken/Blaziken never get released through DW or any other method, and that Blaziken ends up getting banned from DW OU from the conclusion of Baton Pass on it being too overpowered. Then would there be a retest in the future to see if Blaziken is balanced within OU? Of course this is all talking hypothetically.
  3. Omicron

    Omicron
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,042
    In all likelihood, probably not. Unbannings are rare and are very unprecedented. Once something is banned, it usually will not see a retest, especially if it was banned by supermajority like Blaziken originally was. Blaziken was deemed Uber in BW OU because of its other capabilities, as it did not have Baton Pass. Obviously, as you can see in DW, Baton Pass really pushes Blaziken over the edge. Keep in mind that during the time that Blaziken was banned from BW OU, Pokemon such as Thundurus, Garchomp, and Excadrill were all still present.
  4. Oyster

    Oyster

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    112
    Besides Politoed, who is most commonly found on a DW Rain team, and what sets do they tend to run?
  5. Omicron

    Omicron
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,042
    Tentacruel, Amoongus, Toxicroak, Volt Absorb Raikou, Keldeo, Tornadus, Thundurus, and several others are commonly found on rain teams. Tentacruel and Amoongus are more stall-oriented while the rest are usually found on a balanced or more offense-oriented team. As for the sets, your best bet'd be to look up the current ones on-site, found here, and if they aren't here, it means that they haven't been written yet, in which case you can check the S&P Dream World forum, where the analyses are written. If you have any more questions, you can always ask the people that frequent the Dream World subforum in the Smogon Metagames forum (including the DW mods!).
  6. Oyster

    Oyster

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    112
    Sweet, thanks. I thought I might try getting into the DW metagame, since it'll better prepare me for the OU of the future. As a follow-up question, do you think pokes such as Excadrill or Thundurus will be unbanned when the two metagames finally do merge?
  7. IbanezObsession

    IbanezObsession

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2011
    Messages:
    95
    I'm not all too sure about DW Sun, but what Pokémon would commonly be found on those teams?
  8. Omicron

    Omicron
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,042
    I've actually used sun extensively in DW, but here's a brief overview. As you probably know, sun is the least used weather outside of hail due to the distinct type advantage that both Tyranitar and Politoed have over Ninetales. For this reason, most sun teams carry some form of trapper in order to deal with the respective threats. Dugtrio works well against Tyranitar, trapping it and KOing it (although Earthquake doesn't OHKO iirc cuz Dugtrio is piss-weak), while Chandelure can work against weakened Politoed. It is important to have Ninetales survive as long as possible, at least until the opposing weather inducer is defeated, so a Rapid Spinner may also be very helpful - Forretress, Starmie, and even Excadrill can work well. Starmie deals with rain teams moderately well, while Excadrill handles sand teams. Sun stall is nigh impossible with threats such as Excadrill, Shadow Tag Chandelure, Garchomp, and Keldeo running around, so most sun teams will be offensively-oriented.

    Some of the most common sun sweepers include Venusaur (it gets Giga Drain and Power Whip from the Dream World!), Volcarona (this thing is so underrated, and many people aren't prepared for its power), and other Chlorophyll users. Volcarona can easily OHKO Dragonite in the sun with a +1 Fire Blast provided Stealth Rock is up, quite the feat to accomplish. Fire Blast is just so ridiculously powerful in the sun that virtually everything is OHKOed or 2HKOed, except Heatran. Heatran is another problem for sun teams, as they usually don't have a reliable way to take it out. Water-type moves won't work because of the sun reducing the base power, while some sun teams don't have a powerful Fighting- or Ground-type. Heatran can also use the sun against you and fire off powerful STAB Fire-type moves that can easily obliterate any Chlorophyll user. Dugtrio is a great way to deal with non-Air Balloon variants, but Air Balloon Heatran will almost always come out on top. Terrakion can be used as well, but it takes an enormous amount of damage from a sun-boosted Fire Blast.

    Hazards are also very helpful to sun teams, whittling down opposing teams such that your sweepers can more easily take them down - Deoxys-S is a great choice, and can also take out non-Chople Berry Tyranitar with Superpower.

    Hope this helped!
  9. IbanezObsession

    IbanezObsession

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2011
    Messages:
    95
    Thanks for the information, Omicron! I'll be sure to keep this in mind later on.
  10. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,051
    General question, but what exactly is Genesect's best, for the lack of a better word, set? I see a lot of Scarf sets being used to outspeed things like Shadow Tag Chandelure and Excadrill or act as a Volt-Turner / Scout / etc. However, I'm not sure I want to be using a Scarf set. Base 120s in each attack stat seems pretty damn good.

    I'm just teaching myself DW OU because I'd like to try it out, and I'm probably going to be using a Genesect on a HO or Sandstorm team, and want to know what is recommended. Also, what makes good teammates for Genesect? I imagine something to beat Chandelure would be advised, but outside of that, I'm generally stumped, as the Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Flamethrower coverage hits a lot of things pretty hard.
  11. Gimmick

    Gimmick Electric potential

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    165
    Modest or Timid on Scarfed Chandelure?

    I only use Rain so I haven't really looked into Chandy.
  12. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,051
    As a BW OU / UU player, I'd say Timid. You're probably going to end up scarfing this thing, and the extra speed never hurts. And coming off that insane Special Attack stat, Modest really isn't necessary.

    From what I've read so far in DW OU, is that Timid Scarf is basically it's best option, as it's there to trap stuff and kill it off, and again, it's SpA stat allows it to run Timid.
  13. IbanezObsession

    IbanezObsession

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2011
    Messages:
    95
    Pokemazter, the set I run for Genesect is Scarf with 252 Sp. Atk / 252 Spe Naive Nature. Flamethrower / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / U-turn is the ideal set to run on Genesect as it is granted great type coverage. If you're going to be running Genesect on a Rain team, I would suggest Bug Buzz > Flamethrower, though.

    Hope I helped!
  14. Gimmick

    Gimmick Electric potential

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    165
    I read from Taylor's RMT in mostwanted's post that Modest is the way to go since it outspeeds what it needs to, like Gliscor/Breloom/Garchomp/Keldeo/Manaphy. I was debating Timid only to outspeed other Chandelure or not worry about the speed tie with Dnite. Plus, I believe Modest Fire Blast OHKOs Sp. Def Ferrothorn in Rain.

    I'm going off experience though. I just want a solid reason to have a drop in power to outspeed very situational things.
  15. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,051
    It does help actually. Somewhat. It clarifies that coverage and speed are Genosect's main goals, and that the Scarf set is probably it's best set. I'll wait for a few more replies to get extra opinions on it.


    Another question, and its mostly because I never saw this in OU, but would a Sandstorm HO team work at all? attempting to fight the weather war and maintain HO I imagine would be difficult, and more difficult than it needs to be.
  16. Gimmick

    Gimmick Electric potential

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Messages:
    165
    Sandstorm HO defines DW OU atm.
  17. Mazz

    Mazz UU's Workhorse
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    1,051
    I know the two do, but I'm yet to watch a battle or see an RMT running both on the same team, and that being my question. Is both at the same time viable?
  18. LUST

    LUST
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Messages:
    955
    Dream World Rain-teams tend to head in two possible directions: either Offensive or Stall. While both have their own positive and negative effects, it is safe to say, Rain has become the most dominant weather in the tier.

    After the Blaziken ban, Rain offense became even more super-effective thanks to it's amazing coverage and a versatile of nerve-wracking sweepers. Offensive rain-oriented teams are most commonly consisted of: Keldeo which is an absolute monster and no joke under the favorable weather, it has the ability to OHKO many bulky-pokemon with its STAB Hydro Pump and Secret Sword, it also appreciates occasional Tail Wind support during late-game from Tornados while in pinch; Volt-Absorb Raikou is an other fantastic addition to the Dream World meta game, it's blazing speed and access to a multitude of powerful attacks give it the full-potential under rain and is a decent Thundurus, Tornados and Keldeo back-up check; Toxicroak has proven to be one of the most underrated rain-sweepers in fifth gen, permanent rain and its ability Dry Skin increase its survivability, it also packs numerous resistances and removes Toxic Spikes from the field which is really beneficial; Almighty Thundurus on the other hand is an excellent top-notch sweeper, with access to Nasty Plot and Prankster it's presence becomes even more deadly as 120 BP STAB Thunder decimates anything that does not resist it, priority Thunder Wave is a great option which cripples many sweepers and keeps the offensive momentum up; Tornados abuses rain in a similar fashion by spamming continuous STAB Hurricanes which eventually become pretty difficult to deal with; Jirachi is not that often seen on an offensive team considering how common Chandelure is in DW but rain halves it's fire-type weakness which essentially give it many opportunities to be golden. To make an efficient use of rain-offense, entry-hazards are much appreciated and Deoxys-S is a solid candidate for this job. If your team has no reliable way of dealing with other weather inducers Dugtrio is the perfect man for the job.

    Stall is somewhat of an operational play-style if used wisely and appropriately. Tentacruel is the back-bone of every stall-team and is something you must consider, Rain Dish plus its access to Toxic Spikes annoy many well-built teams and is something that couldn't be neglected; Skarmory is an ideal choice which deals with Dragons such as Haxorus, Dragonite and Salamence, it also stacks spikes which slowly wears down opposing mons by phazing under a preferable weather; Amoongus utilizes it's numerous resistances and amazing ability Regenerator to wall the most common threats to rain-stall such as Calm Mind Keldeo and Swords Dance Breloom, it also has the access to spore which makes it an amazing utility wall; Chansey is your special wall and makes an effective use of its natural bulk paired with Eviolite; for the last slot you've gotten several choices, Gastrodon absorbs water-type moves and provides an electric-type move immunity; Jellicent acts as a spin-blocker which benefits stall in a long run. Rain-stall gets a very difficult time against many variants of Manaphy who heal of their status and regain HP back with Hydration and literally demolishes stall after a boost.

    As Omicron already said this and this are great resources to refer to if you're wondering about the common sets. I'm not too familiar about sun in Dream World, however Omicron has brought-out many excellent points.

    As of Genesect, I absolutely love the Focus Sash + 4 attacks set which picks off so many battlers. I normally run U-turn / Ice Beam / ThunderBolt / Flamethrower with a Naive Nature and has worked out wonders, impressively boosting me to 1709 with a rapid-spin support. On the other hand, Rock Polish set doesn't sounds like a bad idea either which essentially confuses your opponent to make a bad decision and acts as a perfect late-game cleaner.

    Modest is definitely the way to go on Chandelure, Timid nature doesn't accomplishes much in DW. More power is always appreciated while revenge killing. Timid allows you to reach 426 where Modest boosts your speed to 388, and allows it to outspeed respectable portion of the unboosted metagame. The main idea between Modest is to get an instant OHKO on many threats which are otherwise impossible with Timid. Taylor's Sand Enduring Territory was a prime example of Sand HO in the Dream World tier. Since Blaziken is now banned from the tier, SD Breloom or Calm Mind Keldeo would make perfect replacements for its spot.
  19. The QWAZ

    The QWAZ

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    527
    Flame charge gensect is pretty good on sun, it is very fast and pretty fucking strong especially if download gives it a spa. Boost.
  20. Tobes

    Tobes "The absolute strongest reindeer"
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,579
    Why would you ever use Flame Charge when it has Rock Polish?
  21. Oyster

    Oyster

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    Messages:
    112
    So, would you say its even more popular than sand? Because I thought Tyranitar was used on like, 70% of the teams here or something...
  22. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    461
    In my experience, sand teams have come up more often than rain by a long shot, although rain teams are still quite common.

    To answer the question of genesect's best set, I've got to say it comes down to your team and what it needs. mostwanted's sashsect is extremely effective due to its coverage and ability to switch between moves, while focus sash lets it beat scarfsect and serve as an emergency security measure. However, scarf genesect is generally easier to fit onto teams and serves as a great revenge killer and lead. I use scarf genesect on my current team, but have used sash in the past.

    In reality, flame charge is probably an inferior option in general, although it has its uses. Running flame charge over flamethrower lets genesect come in on something weak to fire, force it out or kill it with flame charge, and then hopefully sweep with +1 speed and the ability to switch moves. Check out shakeitup's DW RMT if you're interested: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3465631

    For chandelure, I would again say there is no "better" answer, but that modest is generally more useful for the extra KOs. On the other hand, if your team has trouble with dragonite and scarfmamoswine (or something like that), timid will fit your team better.

    This is just personal experience, but I find that well-executed rain stall teams are some of the most potent out there. As mostwanted said, these (almost) always have politoed, tentacruel, skarm, chansey, and the like. It is true that such teams have a fairly mechanical play-style, but they can be very effective.
  23. Jimbon

    Jimbon FAKE TRAIN
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    496
    Although Sand Teams are certainly the most dominant weather according to usage stats, I feel that in the up and coming weeks Rain will definitely prove itself to be a force to be reckoned with in the Dream World Tier. Having been an avid user of Sandstorm for months, I have delved into trying Rain Teams, both Offensive and Stall based. I can definitely say that offensive Rain Teams are a really big threat in the current metagame. Pokemon such as Keldeo and Manaphy always cause problems for the more common Sandstorm teams, as generally most Sandstorm teams lack a solid answer to Keldeo or Manaphy.

    Choice Specs Keldeo in itself is something that all teams should fear, regardless of their weather orientations. Just looking at the 1337 usage stats, very few Pokemon can safely switch in on Keldeo, and actually do something back. Tyranitar, Chandelure, Excadrill, Skarmory, Deoxys-S, Landorus, Terrakion, Gliscor and Mamoswine are all OHKO'd by Keldeo. A very good option for any Rain Offense Team.

    The most effective Genesect set that I have used is the Standard Choice Scarf set, I have tried Rock Polish and even Expert Belt versions of Genesect but Scarf has definately been the set that has consistently won me matches. Sash Genesect is still a very viable option, given the very fast paced tempo of Dream World. Although Sash Genesect does very well in bluffing the Scarf and maybe getting an extra kill on the opponent expecting you to be locked in to a move, the Scarf version for me will always be better. I find it a lot easier straight up forcing switches with Genesect as some opponents fear a potential Ice Beam / Flamethrower / Thunderbolt.

    Sand Teams may be more popular than Rain Teams, but I definitely think that Rain Teams are coming on the rise in the near future. It seems to me like Rain Teams are slowly beginning to get the upper hand on Sand Teams. The dominant forces of Offensive Rain Teams are troubling to many variations of common Sand Teams. For example, Choice Scarf Politoed causes a lot of trouble for Offensive Sand Teams. The bread and butter Sand Teams generally only have maybe one Water resist, or two at best in the form of Keldeo / Breloom. Neither of which will continually want to be subjected to Rain-boosted Hydro Pumps. What happens when your Water resist is down? Your Garchomp / Gliscor are outsped and revenged with Ice Beam. Excadrill is no longer a threat when Sand is down and Rain is up. Even your specially defensive Tyranitar (252HP/176SDef) takes 42%-50% when Sand is up, and has a chance of OHKO'ing when Rain is up. Sand Teams will definitely have to be a lot more wary of Rain Teams on the rise.
  24. RODANK

    RODANK im a meat collector
    is a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2007
    Messages:
    5,657
    how good is cryogonal in dw
  25. Harsha

    Harsha Rest In Beats
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    RMT Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,225
    I would say it isn't very good, especially considering how the metagame is so physically-oriented. Tyranitar is very prevalent and it wrecks Cryogonal, and similarly, Gensect's U-turn, Excadrill's Rock Slide, Choice Scarf Garchomp's attacks, Keldeo's Secret Sword, Chandelure's Fire-type STAB and trapping ability, among Cryogonal's Stealth Rock weakness makes it a non-threat.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)