Resource Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer: Monotype Edition

Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
#76
Hey guys I was wondering why some types are considered "bad" and can't be used in arguments that deal with bans. I've heard the argument that a type would still be bad even if [insert mon here] is banned but aren't we supposed to judge the meta as it exists now and not making theories about the future?
Moved this post. That thread's more metagame discussion and this is more of a SQSA anyway.

"X type that Y Pokemon beats is bad, therefore Y isn't banworthy" very well may be theorymonning and not a legitimate argument if it's not supported properly. However, when it's properly supported, it's very much acceptable if it's actually true. "Bad" types do have a place in the tiering discussion, so it's not that they can't be used. It is very important to make sure that the type in question isn't so bad that it's almost irrelevant to the topic, though.

One use of this argument would be if the ban argument appeals to "2. Ban elements of the metagame that are broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy." and claims that Y is broken because it beats X. That means that the Pokemon in question is too good in comparison to the rest of the metagame. If you say Y beats X, but 90% of the metagame also easily beats X, then Y beating X is not proof that it's too good in comparison to the rest of the metagame. Its performance is just as good, which isn't enough.

If the claim is that Y is banworthy because it beats A, B, and C types, then we want to consider whether this would add or subtract from the metagame. The logic is laid out here:
Scizor destroys Ice, Rock, and Fairy. However, were it banned, Ice would still be as bad as it currently is, as would Rock. Scizor is great at exploiting the weaknesses of those teams (poor defensive typings, weak to common priority). Fairy struggles because it lacks Steel resistances that are able to hit Scizor for significant damage. These are flaws of those teams, not Scizor. Other types/'mons exploit these same weaknesses when facing Ice, Rock and Fairy. Additionally, the 15 other types have reliable methods to check Scizor.

Overall, it isn't that Scizor is too strong for the metagame (broken) or undesirable to the point it inhibits skillful play (unhealthy); instead, 3 types are ill-equipped to handle Scizor in addition to many other aspects of the metagame. By banning it we would lose more than we gain.

In comparison, let's look at Talonflame. Talonflame destroyed Grass, Bug, and Fighting. While Grass doesn't hit particularly high usage, it was commonly asserted that neither Bug nor Fighting would do well before Talonflame was banned. After removing this threat, two whole types became viable, as well as easing the pressure on a struggling type.

Talonflame beat these types by exploiting their weakness to Flying-type attacks (like Scizor's Bullet Punch and Ice/Rock/Fairy). However, it did this to most types because it had a small pool of Pokemon (even by OU standards) that reliably checked/countered it. In Monotype, this was exacerbated. Spamming priority Brave Bird was a reliable strategy to beat most teams that didn't naturally resist it (Electric, Rock, Steel). By banning it we eased pressure on team-building for 15 types and promoted the usage of 2-3 types, which created a more diverse metagame. We gained far more than we lost.
If types A, B, or C are bad, then it's only going to subtract from the metagame if we ban a so-called problem. Therefore, it is necessary to take into account whether the types are of value or not specifically for this argument.

As another example, if by banning Mega Sableye in ORAS we nerfed Ghost, that would not be considered a net loss to the metagame. The loss of Mega Sableye on Dark benefited the metagame as a whole, while nerfing a 0.7% usage type is almost not even a loss to begin with. As a result, worse types just simply matter less to the metagame because they are less relevant to the metagame. The argument for banning Mega Sableye did include types like Electric, Poison, and Grass, which are all "bad" types in ORAS. As you can see, this issue is very specific to individual discussions and just saying "N type is bad" is not necessarily valuable or not valuable to any one tiering discussion.
 
#77
(Eien: This post is about the Viability Rankings. I moved it because this is more suited to SQSA)

just wondering when is it okay to post about the new mega evolutions?
 
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Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
#78
(Eien: This post is about the Viability Rankings. I moved it because this is more suited to SQSA)

just wondering when is it okay to post about the new mega evolutions?
Moved your post.

There's no hard and fast rule, but I'd usually hold off on Mega Evolution discussions for at least a few days to a week. This is just so that we avoid theorymonning and can approach it from an appropriately tested standpoint.
 
#81
I see that Luxray is somewhat viable in this meta. What set should i run on it if i'm interested in using it?
Hello. Luxray is unfortunately unviable in this meta due to its poor Speed, bulk, and lack of effectiveness in a multitude of matchups in comparison to the type's other available options. To answer your question, I would probably suggest a Choice Band set, as seen here:

Luxray @ Choice Band
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wild Charge
- Superpower
- Fire Fang
- Ice Fang / Quick Attack
 
#82
I see that Luxray is somewhat viable in this meta. What set should i run on it if i'm interested in using it?
Following on from what Smub said as it is not viable in this meta, I'd like to mention a better alternative in Electivire.
It has better speed, better attack and a better move pool.
 
#83
Electivire and Luxray are literally the same rank on the VR, so I'd go ahead and assume that both are viable in this meta. Can anyone verify CB as a good set? I don't know that one response in terms of a suggested set is too assuring.
 
#84
Electivire and Luxray are literally the same rank on the VR, so I'd go ahead and assume that both are viable in this meta. Can anyone verify CB as a good set? I don't know that one response in terms of a suggested set is too assuring.
There's virtually no room for either of them on electric right now, but CB would be "best" set for them.
 

Acast

Classy af
is a Forum Moderator
Moderator
#85
Electivire and Luxray are literally the same rank on the VR, so I'd go ahead and assume that both are viable in this meta. Can anyone verify CB as a good set? I don't know that one response in terms of a suggested set is too assuring.
Neither are viable. Adding to what 6ti said, Electric teams have a structure to them that works better than all other options, so most Electric teams tend to look the same or extremely similar. As a result, any Electric Pokemon below A rank is hardly ever used in serious play and any Electric Pokemon below B rank is just not viable. If you want a viable physical attacker on Electric, Alolan Golem is the only one I'd recommend. Tapu Koko isn't awful if it's physical, but it's much better specially oriented.
 
#91
Hi

I was interesting in creating a Mono-Type Poison team next.

With that said thou, when building a poison team what would be some of the BIG THREATS that could tear apart a Mono-Poison Team?

Just to be aware I thou of running a Evoilite Golbat as a Defensive Support mono with Defog. Is Golbat good or does Crobat do the job better?
 
#92
Hi

I was interesting in creating a Mono-Type Poison team next.

With that said thou, when building a poison team what would be some of the BIG THREATS that could tear apart a Mono-Poison Team?

Just to be aware I thou of running a Evoilite Golbat as a Defensive Support mono with Defog. Is Golbat good or does Crobat do the job better?
When you're building a Poison team, first you should take in consideration the type's weaknesses. In this case, Poison is weak to Psychic and Ground so you need checks for those types.
  • You need Muk-Alola as the Psychic immunity, which is a better option over Drapion and Skuntank due to its good Special Defense and the combination of Knock Off and Pursuit. Otherwise, special attackers like Mega Alakazam or Double Dance Mew would be a huge threat for the team. Be careful because Psychic teams use to run Sash Counter Alakazam to check physical attackers and specially Muk-Alola. Psychic teams can also run Mega Gardevoir, which can learn Will-o-Wisp to cripple Muk-Alola's Attack, so be careful when switching in Mega Gardevoir.
  • Excadrill is a big threat for Poison teams, as it can hit hard with STAB Earthquake and it will be faster than all your team under sandstorm. Excadrill can learn Rock Slide to hit your Ground immunity (Crobat/Golbat/Air Balloon-Pokemon), so you need to predict extremely well to deal with it. Ground also has Landorus, a big threat for Poison teams due to Sheer Force and the combination of Earth Power+Rock Slide, and Double Dance Landorus-Therian.
  • Steel is a difficult matchup for Poison, being immune to Poison-type moves, and having access to Pokemon like Excadrill with Ground+Rock coverage. You'll need Nidoking for this matchup to hit with the combination of Sheer Force-boosted moves like Flamethrower and Earth Power, and even with Flamethrower Nidoking does not have many chances of 2OHKOing specially defensive Celesteela, which can wear Nidoking down with Leech Seed+Protect and switching to Steel's Fire immunity, Heatran. Heatran normally runs Air Balloon, which makes it a semi-ground immunity. Mega Venusaur can take Earthquakes from Choice Scarf Excadrill, the variant that Steel usually runs, and restore its HP with Synthesis. Mega Venusaur can also run Earthquake to surprise Heatran once its balloon is gone.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 177-211 (44.4 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
  • Normal isn't an easy matchup for Poison teams, since it has a great defensive backbone formed by Chansey and Porygon2. You'll need Muk-Alola to Knock Off those Eviolites, and it will be best hope to beat Chansey. Normal can also run Diggersby, which run through Poison's defensive core with Earthquake+Return. Toxic Spikes are key in this matchup, to be able to wear down the defensive core, and you should avoid Muk-Alola taking unneccesary damage from hazards because it hasn't access to realiable recovery.
  • Another huge threat for Poison teams is Kyurem-B, an extremely powerful wallbreaker which can run through the defensive core with its coverage moves: Ice Beam, Bolt Strike, Outrage, Earth Power. With Teravolt it will ignore Mega Venusaur's Thick Fat when clicking Ice Beam. Taunt Z-Fly Moxie Gyarados is another threat for Poison, as it won't let Toxapex use Haze and will boost its Attack each time it picks a KO. Nihilego is the best bet to revenge kill these threats with Power Gem (although it won't be able to do that if Gyarados is at +2).

Crobat is always the better option over Golbat as your Ground immunity as it provides a fast Taunt and U-turn to scout.
 
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#94
Why is Ghost considered bad in this current meta? Is it that knock is everywhere? Or is it just underrated?
I'm not sure who is calling it bad, in my opinion Ghost is highly underrated, but it honestly depends on which meta you're considering. The meta pre-Magearna suspect made Ghost a fairly difficult type to utilize, not necessarily because Magearna existed, but because the most commonly used teams in that meta, i.e. Fairy, Steel, Poison, Normal, Water, and Psychic, more often than not will have a strong matchup against what would be considered standard Ghost teams. Frankly, Ghost wasn't terrible in lieu of that pre-Magearna suspect and could work decently well in some of the matchups listed, it just really depended on what the Ghost team was, whether it were Balance or TR or some other build, and what the opposing team was. In the current suspect meta, from what I can tell, Ghost has gotten more usage because it seems that Fairy + Steel usage has decreased and Psychic + Fighting has increased, however the key factor here is the lack of Magearna giving Mega Sableye a huge boost in viability. This is also why you would probably run into Dark and Bug a lot more often than previously on the ladder.

TL;DR: Ghost isn't bad, it's better in the current non-Magearna meta as well. No and it's pretty underrated currently imo.
 
#95
Why is Ghost considered bad in this current meta? Is it that knock is everywhere? Or is it just underrated?
Ghost isn't exactly bad but it's not exactly good or high tier either. I also think Ghost is fairly underrated and is NOT among the bottom 5 types thanks to its numerous additions in gen 7. It's restricted to one viable playstyle though, and teambuilding is still pretty limited.
 

Cresselia92

formerly Darklatias92
#96
Now that all Mega Stones have been released, is there some place where we can discuss about that, since the Metagame Discussion thread is still locked because of the suspect test?
 
#97
Now that all Mega Stones have been released, is there some place where we can discuss about that, since the Metagame Discussion thread is still locked because of the suspect test?
I'd imagine that we'd have to wait until the results of the suspect test, which should come sometime next week I'm pretty sure
 
#98
Hey guys got another question


On Monotype Steel, why are Empoleon and Durant on C rank? Just never understood

Seeing how Empoleon is the only Water/Steel type in the game and how it could possibly help against the Fire-Match up. I know Heatran is Mono-Steel Premier Fire-Check and steels's only immunity to Fire but maybe thou Empoleon might serve as a choice scarf or specs user and with a Neutrality to Fire could check Fire And Ground Types but what would be Empoleons best set on Mono-steel?

Also about Durant, i assume it C-Rank since its outclassed by Mega scizor correct?
 
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#99
Why is Landorus-I not banned? What about the monotype metagame makes it manageable while it wasn't in OU? I assume it's the lack of a good defensive core to fall back on, but it also seems like it would have a way easier time steamrolling through teams by just clicking the right coverage move.
 

Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
Why is Landorus-I not banned? What about the monotype metagame makes it manageable while it wasn't in OU? I assume it's the lack of a good defensive core to fall back on, but it also seems like it would have a way easier time steamrolling through teams by just clicking the right coverage move.
There are many reasons Landorus isn't banned in SM. First, for Flying teams, Choice Scarf Landorus-T is more common than Landorus because the team needs something to check Tapu Koko. Landorus is hardly a threat to Tapu Koko when it just spams Thunderbolt and clicks Hidden Power Ice when Landorus comes in. Even then, while Landorus is very powerful, it's also not particularly that fast and quite threatened by Pokemon faster than it, of which there are many. Unlike in OU, where Landorus can fully use its huge movepool thanks to team support, Monotype teams don't have that luxury. It will always use Earth Power and Sludge Wave, and then from there it's Focus Blast 90% of the time, with Rock Slide, Stealth Rock, Gravity, and Rock Polish being the most common 4th moves. It's not overbearing because it doesn't have the flexibility it did in OU. It is absolutely a very powerful Pokemon and one of the best in the metagame, but there are definitely elements much better than it right now. This lack of coverage means it is walled by a lot of Pokemon, while it would been walled by a lot of its Monotype checks in OU.