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Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Fireburn, Jun 25, 2011.
Darkrai if you can use him RIGHT...
(I.e: Dark void, then spam dark pulse.)
No. Darkrai is outsped and ohko'd by life orb aura sphere. Scarf Ogre can switch into Mewtwo, and even stomach a +0 Psystrike if it needs to... (does 70% upwards) and OHKO with surf if it got attacked, or water spout if it came in on CM.
typically mewtwo is checked very well by sp.def jirachi in rain. even better is sp.def utility counter dark arceus, who fears nothing but boosted aura sphere, which can't even ohko. payback ohko's in return more often than not and life orb recoil will end mewtwo even if it costs dark arceus' life with a second aura sphere.
I'm a complete Ubers noob, the only Ubers battle I ever played was pretty casual versus a RL friend and I just stole Drown All (sorry!) because I had know idea what I was doing when it came to Ubers teambuilding. I've been browsing the Ubers forums a bit more recently though and hopefully I'm starting to get a grasp of Ubers and the threats within it, so that I can start playing once I get all my exams out of the way. I do have a couple of questions though:
I was theorymoning Staraptor for OU and I decided to plug some Ubers in for the hell of it (using the mass damage calc) and see what sort of damage it can do. Adamant Staraptor is faster than a lot of Ubers at 100 base speed and 2HKOs all of them with one of Brave Bird, Double Edge and Close Combat. The only thing that I know of in Ubers can switch in "safely" is Skarmory, who still gets 2HKOd but CB Close Combat with prior damage. Now obviously Staraptor is nowhere to be seen in Ubers but I'm just curious as to why? The only thing I could think of was either there are Uber sets that aren't on the analyses that it can't do shit against or just that the fratility, SR weak and recoil make it unattractive, but to me as a complete noob it seems like it has some potential. I guess maybe there are other Ubers that can do this "lol literally nothing can switch in safely" deal better?
This question is slightly related I guess, but I remeber there was some discussion, I think possibly in the Flyingceus Analysis when it was being written, about SD Flying Arceus with Fly and Earthquake. Obvious Protect is a pain with this set but Flying has pretty goo coverage in Ubers, especially combined with EQ.. I can't remember why this got rejected, I only clicked on the thread on a whim because Flying is my favourite type, but why exactly would you say this isn't viable, assuming it isn't? I guess the SR weak kinda sucks and not being able to use a different Arceus but I can't think of much apart from that. If this is viable, what spread you recommend and what should I use with it? The analysis makes a brief mention but notes that it isn't as good as Extremekiller because it doesn't have STAB Extremespeed, but there are other SD Arceus sets - is Flying STAB just not worth giving up Extremespeed? I'm assuming Toxic Spikes support is pretty mandatory, so unless I missed something that leaves me with either Forretress or rain. I usually prefer to play Offensive teams though, I don't know if Forry/Tentacruel would fit, though the spin support is nice. Are there any offensive Toxic Spikers in Ubers, or would you say SD Flyingceus would only be viable on a bulkier team if it's viable at all? IDK I just like the idea of it lol.
Assuming SD Flyingceus isn't viable, is Shaymin-S viable in a "team centerpiece"-type main Sweeper/Cleaner role, or is it only viable as a wallbreaker with SubSeed/Seed Flare and Flinchhax? If building a heavily Offensive team with Shaymin, what other teammates would you recommend? Is Shaymin bothered about which weather it is in? Is a heavily offensive team even viable in Ubers, or does the sheer bulk of many Pokemon make it inviable? If this type of team is viable, is Shaymin viable on it, and what other Pokemon are good in this role?
Sorry to ask so many questions lol I like flying types :)
Staraptor is not seen in Ubers because it is too frail and gets worn off too quickly. It does not have the time to Roost the damage off, so it will be easily weakened and taken down. Moreover, Giratina is super common in Ubers, and it tanks Staraptor quite well. Adamant, Choice Banded Brave Bird only tops at 45.52% to a 248/252+ Giratina, allowing it to burn it, phaze it, and Rest the damage it has lost. Ho-Oh, despite its glaring Stealth Rock weakness, completely outclasses it. Its Fire STAB, which also has a good rate of burning the opponent, makes it a better option over Staraptor, which has to rely on another recoil move to hit the hardest. In addition, Ho-Oh's enormous 106/154 bulk allows it to Roost on plenty of Ubers's moves, as most of them are special.
As of Flying Arceus... Drop Swords Dance. It's not in the Other Options for nothing (I completed the analysis so I know :P). You are wasting so much potential by giving it Swords Dance instead of Calm Mind. Flying is a great attacking STAB only resisted by 3 types out of 17. Flying Arceus with Refresh/Recover/Calm Mind/Judgment is a phenomenal stallbreaker and wallbreaker. You get to set up on Snatch-less Chansey (and Blissey), and then wreck things apart. Be cautious of Zekrom though, as it can tank a +4 Judgment with ease, and shred Arceus with a single Bolt Strike. Like any other sweeper Flying Arceus appreciates entry hazards which allow it to sweep better, and it could also enjoy Rapid Spin support due to its weakness to Stealth Rock.
As I presented, Flying Arceus is more than viable, just not Swords Dance; although Shaymin-S is a great sweeper too. With SubSeed, it can easily set up on Blissey and Chansey, Leech Seed them, and FlinchHax to death. Thanks to its high base Speed, it would be perfect for an Heavy Offense team; pair it with a fast Spikes user, such as Deoxys-S or Deoxys-A, and Shaymin will have a field run because of the switches it forces. Deoxys-A/S can also prevent Stealth Rock on your hazard by Taunt and high offenses, respectively. Shaymin-S does not care about the weather it's used in, as it is not weather dependant: it's ability is not Chlorophyll and it doesn't use SolarBeam or Thunder. Rain would be the preferred one in my opinion, as it nullifies its Fire-weakness, though sun or sand would work just as well.
Lol, truth be told nothing 'outclasses' Staraptor in what it does, Ho-Oh's larger SR weakness, speed, and power, all mean that Staraptor is a more immediate offensive force.
For the most part Staraptor isn't used because it is, as Furai does rightly say, get worn down too quickly. It's defenses are pathetic and sniping it with priority isn't exactly hard. However, I wouldn't be too quick to entirely dismiss it, as it does hit like a nuke. It almost 2HKOs max / max + Groudon and Brave Bird isn't resisted by many commonly used Pokemon in the Ubers tier. Stall teams without an extremely bulky arceus or a giratina-a will be hard pressed to switch Dialga into this more than once and when that's down something else will probably die too if it can fire off another attack. Offensive teams can often take it down before it causes too much damage, but can't possibly wall it.
If anything outclasses Staraptor I would say it's Deoxys-a, both frighteningly frail, but packing absurdly powerful attacks, the latter boasts higher speed and attacking stats, but really don't expect it to take anything more than a rapid spin.
Is really viable to replace Flare Blitz with Shadow Claw in the Blaziken's Swords Dance set? Even outside of sun, with a +2 boost from Swords Dance and Stealth Rock damage, a neutral Flare Blitz OHKO Lugia, still a super-effective Shadow Claw doesn't!
I haven't tried using Blaziken, and I don't know how much recoil damage Blaziken would take and how much threats he would defeat before fainting.
Flare Blitz will pretty much always do more except against Giratina-A, and of course Rain. If you see to use Shadow Claw it'd be for not getting so much recoil damage and hitting things in Rain, although I don't think that justifies itself over a Sun-Boosted STAB +2 Flare Blitz. You still lose to Giratina-A anyway so I don't see much merit.
So I was thinking of trying out a CB Deoxys-S as a kind of revenger killer.What I got so far is:
Deoxys-S @ Choice Band
Jolly 252 Atk/20 Sp.Def/236 Spe
- Ice Punch
The speed hits 500 to outrun ScarfChomp,max attack, and the rest in Sp.Def.What I'm trying to figure out is what I should run in the 4th slot.I'm debating between these moves.
Extremespeed (+2 priority on CB=good but no additional coverage and only fast Scarfers outrun you anyways)
Zen Headbutt (STAB and flinch but plenty of resists)
Fire Punch (murders Scizor,Ferrothorn,Forretress, and Genesect but kind of redundant coverage with Ice Punch/Superpower)
Trick (messes up walls like Lugia and some set up users.Gotta be careful though as Deoxys-S won't hit very hard without CB)
Just some thoughts.Any help is appreciated.
Well, a couple thoughts on that set.
First of all, whenever you have a speed benchmark that you need almost max speed investment to reach, it's generally a good idea to go with full investment. What this means is that it's unlikely deoxys-s will ever make use of those 20 SpD EVs, especially since it's functioning as a revenge killer. However, the extra speed EVs can allow it to, at the very least, speed tie with other deoxys-s, which is a reasonably common occurence.
Second, band deoxys-s is extremely outclassed by deoxys-a as a revenge killer. You ould even give him a scarf, in which case he would have higher stats in both attack and speed by far (deo-s reaches 434 Atk with your spread, whereas deo-a reaches 504 with a positive nature; deo-s gets 500 spe, whereas deo-a gets 598 with a neutral nature and a scarf). The only disadvantage would be lower defenses, which is rarely an issue for a revenge killer. So regardless of any other changes, I would suggest switching to deoxys-a for this slot, with a choice scarf if you really feel you need the speed--otherwise a LO set would probably be better.
Last, one of the best things to take advantage of about deo is mixed offensive capability. Using just one of physical and special means you get walled much more easily, while also restricting your movepool options. A mixed deoxys-a set has been more effective in my experience, with something like psycho boost / superpower / shadow ball / extremespeed working pretty well for me.
I was wondering whether someone experienced in stall teambuilding wanted to join me in creating an Ubers stall team with me. Unlike my post count suggests, I'm not a complete noob; I tend to lurk a lot. Anyways, I have always tended towards defensive play in Ubers, but I have never been able to break ~1250 ladder rating. This is due mainly to my lack of skill battling, as I spend a lot of time theorizing; I believe that having a partner who is more experienced than I to provide insight on situational analysis and testing would help me a lot. With any luck, a good team would come out of it as well.
PM me if you want to help.
Thanks for the help kidogo!I'll go try some of those things out.Have you ever tried a Pursuit using Deoxys-A?I'm kind of looking for a Pursuit Trapper that is not Scizor or Metagross or Weavile.
jackm,You looking for a full stall team or a more balanced approach?Do you want to use weather?Do you fear one weather more than the other?
Preferably a full stall team, as I build those a lot. If weather is used, I would prefer to run sun, because I greatly appreciate the offensive touch Groudon brings to stall while still serving defensively. That said, I'm still open to rain (or sand, I guess) but not hail. Hail provides too little in the way of defensive boost and apart from checking Kyogre rather mediocrely, Abomasnow is essentially a waste of a team slot. I don't really fear any weather, per say, but rather the pokemon which are supported by that weather, which I am assuming is what you were implying. In this case, I can say that I fear both sun and rain. Sand isn't exactly uber (no pun intended) scary to a team which would be fairly easy to incorporate counters into.
basic stall / defensive cores
dialga / kyogre / ferrothorn / gira-o / lugia or chansey / arceus (CM) --> balance leaning defensive
dialga / kyogre / ferrothorn / tentacruel / giratina-a / arceus (normal tank) --> classic stall
groudon / forretress / chansey / ho-oh / gira-o / arceus (cm / sd / support)
hippowdon / skarmory / gastrodon / excadrill / arceus / scarfer or something really fast
tyranitar / giratina / ferrothorn / excadrill / arceus / filler
hippowdon can also be run with something more offensive, and tyranitar can do anything pretty much
I have used most of those cores (except the Hippowdon, I am planning to try it at some point) in the past; what I was trying to ask was whether someone wanted to co-create a team with me.
I'm sorry if this sounded rude, but I tried wording it a ton of different ways and this is the least vulgar I could make it sound while still getting my point across.
Jackm, I am interested in co-creating a team with you. I, like yourself, am also not a complete noob and have been playing Ubers on Smogon's server for about a year. I have generally played stall or semi-stall and, while I have recently been using a rain stall team, have used sun teams in the past.
i'm making it easier for you. you guys can take this to pm, next time you want to do some teambuilding hop onto irc in #pokemon.
let's keep this thread for sqsa.
really though, hop on irc if you're interested in collaborating with people for anything...
Ok sorry, got it. This was just the forum I found most fitting to the question, totally forgot about IRC.
So, I just had an Ubers battle, and I noticed that a 0 Speed Banded Zekrom outsped my (supposedly) Max Speed Banded Rayquaza. I looked at my pokes after the battle, and it turns out my Rayquaza only had 195 Speed. Now according to the onsite anlysis, even with 0 IV's and a negative nature Rayquaza should have at least a minumum of 203 Speed. Is this a glitch, or is there some other explanation?
This is not a glitch as Rayquaza with Zero IV's has 195 Speed. Maybe you're just confusing it with Zekrom.
Phalanx, I think you're forgetting IVs. 203 is 31 IVs and a negative nature. 195 is neutral nature, 0 IVs. The lowest ray can possibly get is 175, with negative nature AND 0 IVs.
Is Soul Dew legal in ubers now?
Yes, it is, as it can be found in-game BW2.
If you were running a stall team, how would you deal with Mewtwo and Thundurus?
Rain Jirachi, Scarf Kyogre, Phys. Def Ho-Oh, Lugia, Dark / Psychic Arceus --> Mewtwo
Which Thundurus? In any case just revenge kill it or Dragon Tail it out with Giratina-a.
Good stall should have a good general scarfer or a catch-all phazer (or at least the stuff the rest of the team can't handle).
Yeah, I usually use Palkia for that hehe. Doesn't really work on Sand Stall, residual damage takes it down too fast in my experience.
Lol, I forgot about Gira-A's Dragon Tail, now I feel like a herp.