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Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Fireburn, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. rileydelete

    rileydelete

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    Thanks for all your help guys! Owch Go10, that hurt, but you're right. I'm a rookie. Plus, I saw your team and you clearly know how to battle. Thanks.

    Blitzlefan, your comment's are just as valuable. Thank you so much! I'll eliminate the bulk I gave my Thundurus right now.

    Again, thanks guys!
  2. sammao

    sammao

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    What plans you do you have to deal with Arceus-Ghost, in particular the calm mind set?

    The analysis on site C&C basically has:
    Chan/Blissey, which simply can't be put on every team;
    Dark Arceus, who is similar to Chan/Blissey that not ideal to fit most team;
    Tyranitar, who get crippled if not OHKO by focus blast;
    Ho-Oh, which is not completely reliable due to SR;
    Darkari, who can still get crushed by focus blast on the switch;
    And that leaves Kyogre be the only reliable one, and if you are not using rain team then you need another plan. I guess one can argue some other Uber like Mewtwo is just as difficult to deal with, but the thing is Mewtwo is less bulky and vulnerable to Scarf and priority, Arceus-Ghost, on the other hand, has recover and massive bulk on his side, making it more deadly.

    So I wonder what plan do you guys usually have to deal with this underrated S rank monster?
  3. Hack He Must

    Hack He Must
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    Ho-oh is your man. It always finds a spot on my teams.
    4 SpA Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment (Ghost) vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 99-117 (23.85 - 28.19%) -- 22.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    It can usually switch in even with SR up. It is tricky, I'll admit, but Ho-oh usually makes it work. You just need sun and countermeasures for entry hazards and it will usually work out.

    However, Darkrai works too and a specially defensive Skarmory is not 2HKOed by +1 Focus Blast with no rocks up, and works great against the mono-attacker. Specially defensive Jirachi can toxic it and wish/protect stall.
  4. Donkey

    Donkey

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    Toxic on a spinner
  5. sammao

    sammao

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    Some people, myself included, use max SpA on Ghost Arceus, and the chance to 2HKO Ho-Oh after SR increases significantly. As it also block spin, Ho-Oh more often than not has to come into SR, that's why I said it is not completely reliable.
    Moreover, if Darkari already sleep another monster (very oftern the case) and Arceus-Ghost calm mind on the switch, dark pulse will not ko and focus blast will ko Darkari back back.

    You are right on Skarmory and Jirachi are good checks, and that's something the analysis should have mentioned, anyway thanks!
  6. sammao

    sammao

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    I guess it can work, but the problem is you don't know it is Arceus-Ghost until it comes in, and it may not be easy to predict initially. Not to mention if you need to actually counter it, i.e. Arceus-Ghost calm mind on something like Lugia or Latias and you need to switch in another monster to counter it.
  7. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
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    chances are if you let it get a cm and you need to switch, you already lost. unless your opponent is running rain and has already shown a giratina, you should fire off a toxic just to be safe. i mention rain because arceus-steel is common on rain, so you're better off using something else. arceus dark can also be common too however since rain teams will struggle with mewtwo.

    regardless, everything you listed in your first post IS a check in some way or another. you're only way of beating it is to hope you have one of those mons, or 2 physical scarf mons such as a genesect with the attack boost (iron head) and zekrom (bolt strike). otherwise consider the game over.
  8. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !
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    50% of the game is made during the team preview, you need to guess what types can be used by looking at the 5 other mons. Usually, only 2 type (or 3 at most) fit well on the team (if he's using an offense, chance are high that Arceus is ghost or normal, if he's using a defensive team and lack a good ogre switch-in, he's probably grass/Water, if he's using some hazards and lack a ghost, if he lack a good EKceus check then he's probably fight etc). This is one of the most important aspect in BW Uber, guessing what type is Arceus can save your game, or the opposite.

    PS : he's not underrated at all, everyone know he is broken as hell.
  9. Zowayix

    Zowayix

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    Is it true that it is impossible to have both Kyurem-W and Kyurem-B on the same team? I know that attempting to do so would probably be a bad idea competitively, but is it possible?
    I recall that Kyurem-W and Kyurem-B can't be traded without defusing into regular Kyurem, and the DNA Splicers cannot be used to fuse twice in a row (after being used to fuse, its only function is to defuse), but I might be missing something.

    If it is impossible, does Showdown properly enforce this restriction?
  10. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    You can't have two of the same Pokemon, including two different forms of the same pokemon. This applies to the Kyurem forms as well.
  11. Dice

    Dice what's a god to a nonbeliever
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    The reasoning for the aforementioned rule is the clause called Species clause, which wasn't previously mentioned. This is why you can't use more than one Kyurem forme or more than one Arceus forme in Ubers. Good luck!
  12. Melic Walker

    Melic Walker

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    Hi, I've played pokemon mostly on pokemon showdown and have some experience in in ubers, OU, and UU. I've been recently been theory crafting a weatherless, hazardless hyper offensive team in ubers.

    The team is of the following:

    Darkrai @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Bad Dreams
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
    Timid Nature
    - Dark Pulse
    - Dark Void
    - Focus Blast
    - Trick/Ice Beam/Thunder

    Rayquaza @ Life Orb
    Trait: Air Lock
    EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SAtk / 216 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Outrage/Stone Edge
    - V-create
    - Tailwind

    Shaymin-Sky @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Air Slash
    - Leech Seed
    - Seed Flare
    - Substitute

    Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Roost
    - Thunder/Psyshock/Hp fire
    - Dragon Pulse

    Deoxys-Attack @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 238 Spd / 252 SAtk / 18 Atk
    Rash Nature
    - Low Kick
    - Psycho Boost
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunder

    Arceus-Steel @ Iron Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Judgment
    - Recover
    - Will-O-Wisp

    I've only done the theory crafting for this team, therefore I can't really do a RMT of this team yet. But, I've already realized that this team is extremely weak to Ho-ohs, is there anyway I can remedy that issue? How can I further improve this team? Is this team really viable to begin with?

    I will provide addition justifications for each pokemon if necessary.

    Thanx in advance :)
  13. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    I typed stuff then lost it all so I'll just sum it up
    1. You need hazards. Either run Deo S or put them on Deo A
    2. Watch out for Gene. You only have one U-Turn switch in and a lot of things are threatened by him and give him switch-in opportunities.

    That's all a glance tells me, try play testing it a bit and see what doesn't work.
  14. Melic Walker

    Melic Walker

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    @Melee Mewtwo

    I will consider replacing my Deoxy-A with Deoxy-S for some hazard/duo screen support. Thanks for the suggestion.

    I believe the Genesect problem can be fixed if I change the defensive IV of some of my pokemon to 30, there by preventing a special attack boost.

    I would also like to mention that this team can be swept by a Deoxy Attack with: superpower/low kick, Ice beam, extreme speed, a filler move and a life orb. Also, modest specs kyogre one shots my entire team, so I need to fix that as well

    Hazards would fix the Ho-oh problem, but my team lacks any form of hazard control (i.e rapid spin) or taunt, giving me a disadvantage in the hazard wars. Under most scenarios, I think that this team would rather play without hazards altogether. In addition, I feel that setting up hazards would cause me to lose battling momentum which could spell death for a hyper offensive team. I was more looking for something that can best Ho-oh in a straight-out duel.

    Thanks for the advice
  15. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    An effective HO team lays hazards and then uses offensive pressure to prevent spinners from having the free turn. However, you can also consider the addition of a Giratina-O, Ghostceus (I like CM best, personally) or Sableye as a spin blocker. Tina is a nice mixed attacker/SubShuffler that can also help with Deo A thanks to Shadow Sneak (although why isn't your Darkrai revenge killing him?). Ghostceus is very bulky and has excellent coverage making him threatening after one boost and difficult to revenge kill. Sableye can break stall with Taunt (also helps a lot with Forry) while crippling physical sweepers with priority WoW. Another option in setting up hazards is to use Deo-A who can abuse his offensive presence to force switches which he can profit from to drop layers.

    Genesect's boosted U-turns is what worries me most. If you are also having trouble with Ho-Oh then ScarfTerrakion sounds like a good revenge killer that can switch into Genesect with ease while taking some pressure off of Steelceus in WoWing Ekiller. His rock STAB will also force out Ho-Oh just watch out for Subs and Sacred Fire burns.

    Latias tanks Kyogre's attacks much better so if you are looking for a stronger check/counter she's a solid pick.

    (Just out of curiosity, what core is the team built around? It's a good idea to start with a solid core as the rest is just polish that helps get the job done the way you want it to.)
  16. Melic Walker

    Melic Walker

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    @Melee Mewtwo

    There is a bit of history behind this team, being a renewed version of my first ubers team. Originally, the team was kind of a anti-meta team built around palkia, reshiram, and grass-arceus. The team got stuck at around 1500 elo, after a series of trials and error it evolved to what it is today. Still not perfect, but much better than it was

    The core is composed of an offensive clam mind latios and defensive calm mind arceus-steel, very similar to a latias-steelceus core just with better coverage and less bulk. Rayquaza provides anti-weather support and serves as a mixed wall breaker. Darkrai is an anti-lead and revenge killer. Shaymin-s is my second wall breaker with a sub-seed set. Deoxy-a is my third wall breaker and sweeper.

    Basically:
    rayquaza-support
    shaymin-stall breaker
    latios-offensive CM
    Arceus-defensive CM
    darkrai-scarf
    deoxy A-mixed attacker

    That aside, are you suggesting a team composition such as:
    Giratina O-support
    shaymin-stall breaker
    latias-offensive CM
    Arceus-defensive CM
    terrakion-scarf
    deoxy S-lead
  17. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Yeah, those changes look better. Ho-Oh is going to be a annoying for your core so make sure to pack Psyshock on Latias so you can hit him on his weaker physical defense for at least one member. The only thing I feel like nitpicking on is the choice of Shaymin who doesn't seem to be bringing much to the team. I'd rather see Thundy has your wall breaker since his Taunt shuts down a lot of wall and leaves them open to his Electric STAB while TWave makes him annoying to revenge kill and lets him provide a safety net for your team against Swift Swimmers like Omastar and Kingdra. Anyways, try those changes and see how it works.
  18. Melic Walker

    Melic Walker

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    The reason I picked Shaymin is because of it's strong seed flare with the added bonus of doing 2X damage the next time (80% chance of -2 special defense drop) and its 60% flinch rate with air slash. In addition, with its blazing fast speed 127 base speed it makes a great sub seeder. I've considered thunderous in the past, but after taunting walls or t-waving something thunderous can't dish out much damage without a nasty plot boost and tends to get killed the instant they decide to attack. With the concern about weather sweepers, Giratina O can usually tank a hit and KO back, those that I can't wall with Giratina O (i.e omastar) I can revenge with my terrikion (provided they don't have swift swim in conjunction with a shell smash)
  19. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    Hi, im kinda new to Uber, and i just wanted to know if Volcarona is a viable choice in uber or its just outclassed by Ho-oh.
  20. Hack He Must

    Hack He Must
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    Simply, IMO, Volcarona is not viable because of it's crippling weakness to SR, its low stats compared to other ubers, and that it indeed has to compete with the better Ho-oh for a team spot.

    Since Volcarona doesn't have regenerator, it can't really switch in as much, and if you decide to use magic bounce with it (and yes, magic bounce is viable), then it's still checked to an extent my common rainmons like Kyogre, Palkia, Kabutops. Sun teams almost always have an instant check to it in Ho-oh or Reshiram, who Volcarona can't get past even at +2.

    It's defense stat is also not that nice, so it kinda has trouble getting into play, unlike Ho-oh who walks in support Arceus, some CM arceus, and others assuming rocks aren't up.
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I haven't really tried Volacrona but i think that the only viable Volcarona set is the QD Sunny Day set, the only one that can deal with Kyogre switch-ins. Use enough Speed to outspeed Timid Scarf Kyogre after a QD, and then either put the rest to HP and go with Roost and Flame Dance, or put them to SpA and go for dual STABs. Here is what i mean:

    Volcarona @ Leftovers
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 252 HP or 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Quiver Dance
    - Sunny Day
    - Fire Dance / Fire Blast
    - Roost / Morning Sun / Bug Buzz

    Use QD on the first free turn you find, as Kyogre switches into you. Then the next turn use Sunny Day to weaken the water attack, and depnding on the damage it did act accordingly. The most interesting things is that if you run a set of Quiver Dance / Sunny Day / Fire Blast / Morning Sun with max SpA and Speed and Lefties you can stall out even a full health Scarf Modest Kyogre from its Water Spouts. Full Powered Water Spout does this amount to a +1 0 HP Volcarona under sun: 60.45 - 72.02%, which is exactly how much Morning Sun + Lefties heals, so if Kyogre doesn't get a crit you can stall it out and then get a second QD boost as it switches out. (this is all theorymon though)
  22. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    @hack he must
    Obviously, i know it needs support in the form of spinner/mbouncer, and i can understand why volca cant switch on anything lol
    i was just thinking about a lategame cleaner, volca has quiver dance and i thought it can be something to differentiate it from ho-oh or other fire..

    @alex
    thanks for that set, i think ill start from this. Btw is kyogre a so "safe" switch in? i mean bug buzz+1 should hurt..
  23. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !
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    Nope, this set doesnt work at all. The only one who "can" work is the LO. I tried to play him during BW1, and no matter what, there is always something which stop you cold. If you opt for HP Ice, then you're a setup bait for Ho-Oh/Kyurem, and if you're running HP Rock, then Giratina can dragon tail safely.
    The most effective strategy to make him work is running Deo-S dual screen and lure his counter with things like SD Groudon (and running HP Rock ofc). You'll be able to setup some QD, and sweep without too much trouble. Also, since Kyogre Restalk SpD is common now, make sure you can kill him before trying to setup Volca. Finally, dont try to use this in a defensive team, it's almost impossible to make him work, he can never come in the field and you'll play 5v6 during the whole game.

    Volcarona (M) @ Lum Berry / Life Orb
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 SAtk / 136 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Quiver Dance
    - Fire Blast
    - Bug Buzz
    - Hidden Power [Ice/Rock]

    You can OHKO Arceus with FB under sun, and ScarfOgre can be OHKOed with SR and Spikes.
  24. Melic Walker

    Melic Walker

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    Out of curiosity, does the fire-wate-grass typing core work in ubers? If so, what is a good example of a fire-water-grass core in ubers? Or is there not diversity in uber pokemons to form a cohesive fire-water-grass core
  25. Hack He Must

    Hack He Must
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    Glad that you asked!

    Here is my RMT, which features Ho-oh, Arceus-Water and Ferrothorn in a FWG-core. It has worked very nicely:

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3477020

    It is usually kinda hard because you usually use Fire-types (Ho-oh, Reshiram and Blaziken) on sun while Kyogre instantly nerfs these typical Fire-types with drizzle. On my team, which is a sand team, there is room for both a fire and a water type.

    My answer to the question itself would be that it can work, but it's usually the prevalence of Kyogre or Groudon on teams that make then rare.

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