1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Ask an Uber Question, Get an Uber Answer (Read FAQs in First Post Before Asking)

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Fireburn, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    Messages:
    829
    Lugia doesnt have any set where its worth running Light Screen. Latias can pass wish along the screen, Latios can use Memento to enable a free setup, Xatu can uturn and let your field clear all the day, Deo-S is a nice lead when playing HO, Stalltwo can run LS.
    He can be used with Light Screen, but it's a total waste of Lugia (and a team's slot). I shouldnt have even mentionned Latias since she's not that great.
  2. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,207
    You don't need Light Screens to beat Kyurem-W. Kyu suffers from heavy hazards weakness and a sluggish speed which forces it to switch out multiple times. An HO team should have no problem just plowing right through it while a Stall team has multiple options that solidly check/counter it (Chansey/Jirachi/Ferrothorn/Kyogre) only really fearing that Specs set in the first place. Even then, that hazards weakness still applies and a slight bit of prediction and/or packing one of those 4 (the list isn't exclusive) should be enough to get around it. Don't get me wrong, Kyurem-W is an amazing Pokemon and a solid choice. It just got a bit over-hyped and isn't the most dangerous wall breaker in the tier. (Mewtwo and Latios are the two that Stall really need to worry about with stuff like Specs Ogre/Kyurem/etc. coming in after due to their brute force etc.)
  3. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,310
    Like Melee Mewtwo said, there really is no need for Light Screen when trying to beat Kyurem-W. Just pick a faster pokemon (Palkia is especially good, as he is naturally faster and can run an effective Scarf set if you think Scarf Kyurem-W will be a bigger threat than Specs Kyurem-W) and you'll be in the clear. Stealth Rock is also huge in defeating Kyurem-W. Taking 25% per switch-in on a choice-locked set will make it a LOT easier to kill. For instance, 252 SpA Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-W: 366-432 (93.6 - 110.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock. No problem.
  4. Salamence97

    Salamence97

    Joined:
    May 26, 2012
    Messages:
    62
    Which one of the following is the better Poke to use on a SmashPass team?
    I have two candidates right now, and need help for both-

    Giratina-O @Griseous Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Attk/188 Spe/68 HP
    Nature: Adamant
    Shadow Force
    Dragon Claw
    Earthquake
    ??????

    Dialga @Life Orb
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SpAttk/188 Spe/68 HP
    Nature: Modest
    Dragon Pulse
    Flamethrower
    Earth Power
    Aura Sphere

    If someone can tell me which one is better overall, and what is the best combination of moves for either of these, I'll highly appreciate that.
  5. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,551
    Dialga is probably the better choice overall, given its better offensive stats and defensive typing. Giratina-O also has a disadvantage in that it's weak to Shadow Sneak, meaning that it will be vulnerable to other Giratina-Os if it doesn't run Shadow Sneak itself. You can of course run both on the same team.

    As for sets, Giratina-O isn't quite strong enough to make do with just Dragon Claw against anything but really offensive teams.

    -Outrage
    -Hidden Power Fire / Aura Sphere
    -Draco Meteor
    -Shadow Sneak / Dragon Claw

    Outrage is pretty strong with a +2 boost; it even OHKOes Hasty Genesect iirc. Hidden Power Fire disposes of it, Forretress, and Ferrothorn quite handily, though; however, on a rain team Aura Sphere may be preferable. Draco Meteor makes short work of physical walls like Groudon, or if you want to get off a strong hit without locking yourself into Outrage. Shadow Sneak can be used for the aforementioned opposing Giratina-Os, or can be used to pick off Lati@s or Mewtwo without Outrage-locking. On the other hand, Dragon Claw can pick apart offensive teams.

    As for Dialga:

    -Dragon Pulse
    -Flamethrower / Aura Sphere
    -Thunderbolt / Thunder
    -Outrage / Brick Break

    Heatran's not that prevalent, so Earth Power is a bit of a waste, and Aura Sphere is pretty specific in what it hits. Outrage nails special walls, while Brick Break can smash Chansey or Tyranitar. Thunderbolt is a move that should almost never be used in Ubers, but it does serve a purpose here in being able to nail Ho-Oh without being weather-dependent. Thunder does do a load of damage at +2 though and should be considered if you're already running Kyogre. As for items, consider trying Lum Berry or White Herb as well.

    Hope that helps. If you like either of those sets go ahead and try them out.
  6. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,207
    Keep in mind, though, that building your team solely around attempting to get a successful Smash Pass will lead to consistent results. You can choose to add an ideal recipient like Dialga but if you do you will want to make sure that the rest of your offensive team has good synergy with each other so that you don't fall flat on your face if you fail to get the Smash Pass. I'm not sure if you were already aware of this or not, I just noticed many Smash Pass users forget that their Smeargle/Gorybyss are just support for the rest of the team, not the team itself. (so if you already knew that good and if not well now you do)
  7. Infernis

    Infernis

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2012
    Messages:
    768
    Another thing to remember is that you'll want several options to send the pass to. If your ideal recipient goes down, the passer doesn't have a whole lot to do. (Pass attack boosts and defense drops to a Giratina? Maybe not.) Alternatively, the enemy may have a Pokemon out that can destroy your pass target on the switch. Say, Groudon against your Dialga.

    Example: On my RU team, I usually pass from Ninjask to Relicanth, but if the enemy has an electric or grass type out, that's suicide. So I have Camerupt ready to take that kind of hit.
  8. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,750
    Agreeing with Tobes here for the most part, but you may want to consider a Dialga set with Dragon Pulse / Thunderbolt / Aura Sphere / Brick Break. Now BB will almost never be used, but it's good insurance against Blissey's and Chansey's if you happen to get Dialga in on low health. Since the other 3 moves pretty much cover everything in the tier, there really isn't a downside to using 2 fighting moves. Also, I prefer Lum or EBelt > Life Orb, but that choice is entirely up to you.
  9. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,310
    Gira-O isn't strong enough to sweep teams even with support, and is vulnerable to priority in the form of Shadow Sneak. Also, 120 offenses, being forced to run Griseous Orb, and weaknesses to Dragon and Ice moves aren't the best traits for a SmashPass receiver. However, Dialga is a better SmashPass recipient, with 150SpA and 120 Atk stats and neutrality to Dragon and resistance to Stealth Rock, as well as a wide movepool.

    Life Orb might not be your best choice for a SmashPass recipient, simply because once you get a boosted Dialga in, you're going to want him to last as long as possible. Life Orb is sub-optimal because if Dialga is attacked on the turn it comes in, its longevity is going to be severely hampered with residual damage from LO. Furthermore, Dialga has good enough coverage to run a Expert Belt set, with the moves mentioned by previous posters.

    Again, make sure you have backup sweepers in case Dialga is KO'd or Dialga has an unfavorable match-up against the opponent's current pokemon.
  10. Salamence97

    Salamence97

    Joined:
    May 26, 2012
    Messages:
    62
    Here's a pretty good core I've been testing out lately -

    Rayquaza @Life Orb
    40 Atk/252 SpA/216 Spe
    Mild
    Air Lock
    -Draco Meteor
    -Fire Blast
    -Dragon Dance
    -Outrage
    The standard mixed dancer. Early on, I try to limit myself to DMeteor and Fire Blast only, because the number of times I've caught Mewtwo/Darkarai/other faster stuff due to a surprise DD late-game while the opponent was thinking this is just MixQuaza, is just incredible.

    Salamence @Life Orb
    252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Spe
    Naive
    Moxie
    Dragon Dance
    Outrage
    Earthquake
    Fire Blast
    Ray isn't the main sweeper however. It's this thing - standard DD Mence. Since both of these have almost the same checks, Rayquaza can easily lure them in and...

    Wobbuffet @Leftovers
    28 HP/228 Def/252 SpD
    Calm
    Shadow Tag
    Counter
    Mirror Coat
    Encore
    Safeguard
    ... this guy can *usually* eliminate them. If its an offensive Poke (Palkia/Terrakion), use CounterCoat, if its a defensive poke, Encore to give Ray a safe switch in and proceed to DMeteor/Fire Blast it.

    The problem is - what are some good supporters for this core? I've tried quite a few combinations, and I just cant find the right balance of offense and defense. Sometimes, I focus too much on laying hazards and spinblocking that it kills all my offensive pressure. Other times, I find my team just cant take hits.
    So, any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance.
  11. Sweep

    Sweep
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Messages:
    848
    Salamence and Rayquaza both share the same weaknesses -- specifically Rock, Ice, and Dragon moves -- so placing Pokemon on your team that can take such hits is pivotal.

    252 Health Forretress is a good idea. It can spin away the rocks that your dragons hate so much, can take Choice Scarf Stone Edges from Terrakion and Landorus (though not repeatedly), and put up hazards of its own to make pulling off sweeps that much easier. Stealth Rock also makes Thunder Wave Parashuffler Lugia, who gives you MAJOR problems, easier to deal with.

    To protect yourself from Ice Beam, Arceus-Water or Arceus-Steel would be good options. Use the latter only if you don't choose Groudon as a weather setter (I think your core is better off weatherless IMO). A status move, preferably Thunder Wave or Toxic, is a must to cripple Lugia and fast special attackers like Palkia that could give your team issues. From there, whether you choose to make your Arceus defensive or offensive is up to you...

    Finally, I feel you need a special attacker. You do not want to use a Dragon that is weak to Dragon or Ice moves, as stacking types is always a poor idea. I would recommend Choice Scarf Dialga. Dialga can perform fairly well vs. weakened Extremekiller and Arceus-Dragon (who your team has some issues with). Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Thunder (for Kyogre), and Dragon Pulse would be a good set. Max speed isn't necessary, but make sure you can outrun threats like Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Shaymin-S. Dialga also stops Scarf Terrakion from revenging your dragons with Stone Edge

    My suggestions still leave you weak to certain threats, such as Extremekiller and Bisharp, so make sure you have an effective way of dealing with those! Max defense Hippowdon or Sableye can check it to a decent extent if you want to be innovative. Regardless, best of luck! I really recommend Forry for your team, but my other suggestions are far from foolproof.
  12. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo Is a Fox main.
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,207
    The problem is you are taking a very offensive core and are trying to build a defensive backbone into it. This core really is only effective on HO teams where trying to dry switch into counters isn't your game plan. HO teams rely on double switches and picking up where the other left off. What your core is currently lacking are utilities. (HO teams don't ask for much but you still need them) You need to add a SR setter, some good ones are offensive Groudon, Terrakion, Garchomp, Deo-S (who also provides Spikes) and Dialga. Just about all of these can reliably set up SR while using offensive pressure/tauntto prevent opposing SR setters. You will also want a Choice Scarf Pokemon. For HO I like Genesect mostly as the main problem with Revenge Killers is that they give up momentum which Genesect doesn't do as much thanks to U-Turn and Explosion. However, Terrakion is also a solid pick as Priority sweepers like Ekiller can be annoying so you will want to try to pack a good check to it. (unless the rest of the team doesn't give him a chance to safely set up, which for the most part you have going so far) SR and Scarfmons are really the only utilities you must have on a HO team. The rest is how you like to dress it up yourself. If you go with Deo-S a spin blocker may be a good idea to keep your hazards up. Something like Sableye (counters Ekiller, stops other Deo-S lead and check physical cleaners) Giratina-O or CM Ghostceus (preferably with an offensive spread, Poppy had a cool one in her RMT) are solid choices. However, you can also just rely on offensive pressure to prevent spinning (cause giving Ray a free DD is pretty risky, assuming you even get the chance to Spin againt all the sweepers) in which case you can pick a third sweeper. Preferably this one could set up on things Mence and Ray can't but I'll leave that to you to fiddle with.


    Oh, and you may want to change your Wobbufett set from Lefties -> Custap Berry and Safeguard -> Destiny Bond. Custap Berry is a pinch berry that lets you attack first once, when your HP is under 25%. This will give you more opportunities to KO something as well as ease prediction a bit. Do I Encore the DD or Counter the Outrage I can only tank one of? Custap fixes this by allowing you to safely use Encore as even if Ray Outrages you can use Custap Berry to drag him down with you thanks to Destiny Bond.
  13. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,310
    GOD!!! On a rain team, how the hell do you kill Ferrothorn??? Err... what pokes reliably draw him in AND can kill him?
  14. jackm

    jackm

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    356
    Well, let's see. Lustrous Orb Palkia w/ Fire Blast is probably your best bet. SpecsOgre, Arceus-Ghost, Substitute Darkrai, and Shaymin-S also work pretty well, although Shaymin needs to watch out for Gyro Ball. While unorthodox, you could also simply trap it with Magnezone. If you just want to minimize its impact, Forretress walls it and sets up.
  15. Sweep

    Sweep
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Messages:
    848
    Lustrous Orb Palkia can do a good job of putting it in mortal danger. Palkia can Spacial Rend or Hydro Pump Ferrothorn as Kyogre runs from it, then proceed to Fire Blast it. From there, as Ferrothorn hits Palkia with Leech Seed, switch out as a Protect is likely to follow.

    Though most teams have a better SpecsOgre check than Ferrothorn, Specs can 2HKO it cleanly with Water Spout, ensuring it cannot switch in without paying dearly.

    If you are really desperate, Magzezone can trap it and set up on it with a Charge Beam/Substitute combo, which Ferrothorn cannot break.

    Choice Band Kabutops takes a massive chunk of damage out of it with Low Kick, especially after entry hazards. Apart from that, Ferrothorn is very difficult to deal with. Just keep hitting it with powerful attacks and play around the protect instead of staying in and letting it replenish its health.
  16. Haruno

    Haruno I choose you!
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,999
    Skarm with taunt turns ferro into setup fodder since power whip and gyro ball won't even scratch it.
  17. Sacaen

    Sacaen

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2012
    Messages:
    90
    Scarf Palkia can lure in Ferro hoping to absorb it's thunder/surf/spacial rend and 2HKO with Fire Blast.

    252 SpA Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 196-232 (55.68 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Specs Palkia can get close to OHKO'ing with a bit of prior damage and/or Stealth Rock.

    252 SpA Choice Specs Palkia Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 292-344 (82.95 - 97.72%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
  18. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,750
    SpecsOgre, Dialga, Palkia, Gira-O (with sub) and Arceus-Ghost are your best options.
  19. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,310
    WHOA! That was quick! THANK YOU ALL FOR THE HELP! Just one more question: if I were to run Fire Blast on Lustrous Orb Palkia, what would the moveset be? I know it'll have to go along the lines of Draco Meteor/Spacial Rend, Hydro Pump/Surf, Thunder, and Fire Blast, but of the slashed moves, which two should I pick? Also, I'm going to test Taunt Skarmory when I have the chance. I need a good Steel-type and that seems pretty cool. Again, thank you all! :)
  20. jackm

    jackm

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2011
    Messages:
    356
    Draco Meteor/Spacial rend is sortof arbitrary, depends on whether you want to nuke or continually pose a threat. An important thing to note is that when luring Ferrothorn, Draco Meteor will leave you helpless to execute your strategy, so in this situation I'd advise using Spacial Rend. Hydro Pump vs. Surf is the eternal power against accuracy battle, it's up to personal preference. I'd recommend looking at what you require Palkia to hit with (STAB Water move) and determine whether the extra power is necessary.

    [EDIT]: lol sweep beat you to it again
  21. Sweep

    Sweep
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2013
    Messages:
    848
    Spacial Rend is a great move, with terrific power, accuracy, and a 1/8 chance to score a critical hit. I would use that over Draco Meteor personally, as DM turns Palkia into set-up bait.

    Surf vs. Hydro Pump has always been a matter of personal preference. I would use Surf as it is a great move with no drawbacks, but Hydro Pump is great for scoring 2HKO's on stuff like some Arceus forms, whereas Surf cannot. I would use Surf but it is up to you.
  22. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,310
    All right! That's right... Draco Meteor will leave Palkia unable to beat Ferrothorn even with Fire Blast after the Special Attack drop, so I'll run Spacial Rend, and accuracy > power any day for me, hence Surf. I'll test Lustrous Orb Palkia with Spacial Rend/Surf/Thunder/Fire Blast! Thank you both!
  23. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2007
    Messages:
    1,750
    Hydro Pump and Spacial Rend.
  24. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,310
    The Ubers forum has really little activity... How could we improve this? Could I start a CtP project for Ubers, or would that not be viable here? If it's an okay idea, what should I do to prep?

    Also, Lustrous Orb Palkia with Fire Blast has made a BIG difference. Lures in that pesky Ferrothorn and deals with him pretty well. At the least, if Fire Blast connects, Ferrothorn won't really be able to wall anything else that hard. THANK YOU, jackm, Sweep, Haruno, Sacaen, and Faint. btw I haven't gotten around to testing Skarmory, but I will. :)

    Edit: Hopefully, I don't sound too naive, but what is a CCAT? Also, who's permission should I get? Ugh sorry for all the questions, but (maybe?) this'll be my first thread ever?

    Edit: All right go ahead! :) And I could learn along the way (and one day start a thread!)! I'll try to contribute as much as I can! ONWARD!!!
  25. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    440
    Start a CCAT. The last two CCATs were locked due to inactivity. Maybe this time we can get more people to participate. It is worth a shot.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)