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Discussion in 'Ubers' started by Fireburn, Jun 25, 2011.
what is your opinion on the dragon dance set?
The Dragon Dance set is both powerful, and fast. Sadly, it's not terribly hard to beat. Scarf Palkia and Genesect deal with it handily, as well as the occasional scarf Mewtwo/ scarf HP Ice users with higher than 95 base speed. Revenge killers in general give Rayquaza hell. Honestly, Rayquaza's downfall is it's frailty. 105/90/90 is decent bulk, but it's not enough to avoid being 2HKO'd by most neutral attacks.
Generally, if you want to use Rayquaza, you want it to hit as hard and as fast as possible, because if something manages to outspeed it, more often than not, Rayquaza's lifespan will be cut short.
If there's anything else I can help you with, feel free to ask :)
The Mixed set and the Swords Dance set tend to be the most successful.
The Mixed set has the most immediate power of all the sets, being able to destroy most of the metagame in one hit, or anything not named Heatran in two. It tends to hit and run since its speed, while good, is far from exceptional. It also checks Swift Swim Pokemon better than the Swords Dance set (mainly because Kabutops/Omastar have decent defense to survive an unboosted Dragon Claw and resist V-Create).
The Swords Dance set is also quite powerful, but mostly seeks to find a free turn by forcing a switch to set up and then tear as many holes into the opposing team as it can. Since it uses Extremespeed, it cannot be revenge killed by Scarf Pokemon that are not significantly bulky or resist Extremespeed (and even those will fall if weakened), while the power of a +2 Dragon Claw is terrifying and a +2 V-Create is completely ridiculous.
Both sets use priority, which is a valuable asset for any team for its general utility against offensive teams.
The Dragon Dance set struggles for many reasons. Even after a set up (which is difficult enough already) it is still outsped by many common Scarf Pokemon (all of which can OHKO it). It also relies heavily on Outrage, which is a rather problematic move because Steel types easily take advantage of it, allowing them to phaze/paralyze/attack it. If that isn't enough reason not to use it, it also hates priority (much like all Rayquaza sets).
If you really want a Rayquaza that boosts its speed though, the Mixed Dragon Dance set or a Tailwind set are better options. The Mixed Dancer can function quite like the Mixed set as a general wallbreaker that hits and runs, but then surprise the opponent lategame by setting up. It is also harder to play around, since it does not need to lock itself into Outrage as quickly thanks to Draco Meteor. A Tailwind set with identical moves (apart from Tailwind over Dragon Dance) is also an option. It may seem inferior initially, since it only boosts speed and not attack and is only temporary, but the difference in speed is critical. After a Tailwind, all the Scarf Pokemon that usually check Rayquaza even after a set up are now outsped and OHKO'd. Outside of powerful priority or very bulky walls that are not weak to any of its attacks (Lugia and bulky Arceus are the only ones to fit this category), Rayquaza is incredibly difficult to handle with the speed boost from Tailwind. It also has the added advantage that if Rayquaza is killed while Tailwind is still up, Tailwind now supports its team for a turn or two.
Is there anywhere to check EV values for speed/hp/whatever to make sure that I can invest the right amount to outspeed other pokes/survive certain hits? I can obviously do calcs on them, but its a lot of work calcing the speed etc of my mons against the rest of the metagame whenever I mess with my team.
Thanks in advance.
Speed tiers are here (I think they're up to date), but I'm not sure where you can find the other thing. Maybe the "All vs. One" function on Honkalculator can help?
Uhhhh... sorry for double posting, but this is a separate topic and the post above was a response to an earlier question, so I thought it'd be okay to do this.
Could we hold a Top 10 Titans thread in the Ubers subforum? It seems pretty popular in the other metagames, and I think it'd help bring some more activity (possibly). It could be interesting, and it shows how Pokemon shape / influence the metagame rather than how viable they are. However, some issues include the power / centralization of the metagame, as the thread may be predictable, and lack of Pokemon for submissions. Could this work though?
re speed tiers: The slowest you want any mon in ubers to be is 90 around the base speed benchmark. There's a lot of defensive mons that don't invest that you'll want to creep and many that go 252 but neutral nature that are good for creeping, too. (there are some positive nature ones but that's pretty much just speed creep itself) Afterwords, outspeeding Timid Palkia is the next biggest benchmark as that thing can gobble up a lot of teams if you give it enough free turns (although if you have grassy or chansey you can be a bit more lax on this). Last major benchmark is max speed, positive nature Arceus. These guys are really bulky so getting to hit them before they Recover makes it harder for them to check you. These are just the major benchmarks, there are going to be other mons that you might want to creep but aren't as important.
Technically, Kyogre should be #1. That goes without speaking. Arceus would be #2. Groudon would be third. However, the rest can be somewhat debatable.
Arceus as a whole wins as the most influential uber by miles.. Unless of course we want to devote several of the top ten spots to arceus for each of its respective forms but that's very counterproductive.
Arceus doesn't make a huge amount of the pokes in the tier suddenly good or bad.
Arceus doesn't fire off insanely powerful Water Spouts.
Arceus doesn't hold responsibility for the insane weather wars of Ubers.
Arceus doesn't hit number #1 in the Ubers Stats consistantly with a single form.
Arceus doesn't have the ability to boast being uncounterable (Specs Kyogre wrecks any switch-in with BoltBeam coverage.)
Arceus obviously has several advantages over Kyogre as well, but in the end, Kyogre is way, WAY, WAY more influential and powerful than Arceus will ever be.
I direct you to read Lance's (Demon Lord Ghirahim's) post on the Q/C revamp on Kyogre. If you still think Kyogre is better than Arceus after reading that, then you have some issues I think.
Lance pretty much summed everything I can say. Also counting arceus as different forms would only make sense if team preview revealed arceus type, but it doesn't sooooooooooooooo.
edit: fucking ninja cats.
and this is why that thread will not exist
Gastrodon says lol
You act like that's any reason to use Gastrodon, Latias can do that and more while not being complete setup bait. If the opponent doesn't have a Kyogre it also ende up as a waste of space instead of a waste of space 99% of the time.
Gastrodon is a viable Pokemon, if only with a rather specific niche. Even in the absence of Kyogre it adds nice defensive synergy, and it handles Palkia (something which very little can avoid being 2HKO'd by) relatively well. And no, Latias cannot do the same. Latias is forced into a difficult position the moment it switches into a Specs Ice Beam. It cannot outheal the damage, forcing it to attack in order to have checked Kyogre. However, if it attacks and the opponent can switch something that can outspeed it and finish it off into whatever attack it uses, the Kyogre check is now lost (Latias can switch out, but can now no longer switch into Kyogre's Water Spout, or maybe even its Surf in the case of offensive sets). It can predict a switch and Recover, but then loses if Kyogre stays in to Ice Beam again. Gastrodon switches into Kyogre with impunity, not to mention forcing its user to only use Ice Beam for fear of handing out free turns.
You might want to check your calcs again, use the normal for a specially defensive Latias, 252 HP 160 Special Defense Calm
I'm not sure why you would use Latias' worst set just for Kyogre. And this set works far worse in Sand than Gastrodon does (which is really the only playstyle where Gastrodon gets used).
Why does that matter? I never said I used that just to counter Kyogre. Also what do you mean by "Latias's worst set?" Because if you really mean that you expect people to consider using Smogon sets when they could actually use something for their team rather then what someone else decides is "standard" you have a problem. Also that set was part of a defensive core of Latias and Arceus Steel I used in an old team.
I mean that something with potential for a great combination of speed, power and bulk becomes nothing but a special wall (which Chansey arguably does better bar Specs Kyogre).
If we go outside of Smogon's sets, there are players (very capable ones, too) that use Timid Specs Kyogre, which gives your Latias problems because it outspeeds it.
I was only using that as an example. I only used it on one team maybe 5 months ago. The point of my arguement was Gastrodon is bad i. everything it does, here and in OU
It hard walls kyogre. It's pretty sad how you go from KYOGRE HAS NO COUNTERS to kyogres counters suck. Stop being so two faced.
On topic what would be good for a antilead mewtwo?
Edit: gtfo ninja antilead shit is op
What the hell is wrong with you, I never said either of those things in any way.
Can somebody give me a good pivot for a hyper offensive team? I have Deoxys-S, Groudon, Kyogre, Palkia, and Arceus, none of which are bulky. I know it's hyper offensive, but I realized I was constantly sacrificing things to a bad switch.