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Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by Fireburn, Jun 25, 2011.

  1. Furai

    Furai a ╬ędefender // a ╬▒guardian
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    Argh, for the second time Darkrai doesn't get an OHKO move. Dark Void is not an OHKO move, when will you get that?

    And when you send in Rayquaza on Groudon (safely), your opponent will almost always understand that Rayquaza is mixed, because no sane person would switch a sweeper into its counter. So I guess it's bitter-sweet eh?

    Darkrai and Mewtwo are good Pokemon to pair with Wobbuffet, because both enjoy the removal of Scarfers. SD Dragceus is also a good partner, because it's weak to many Scarfers like Palkia and Dialga.
  2. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    Well, its not like Dark Void is easy to deal with, your mons is going to be a dead weight thanks to the new sleep mechanic, so yeah, I can understand why they're talking about it like an OHKO move.
  3. shrang

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    Cloyster is probably one of the Pokemon that benefit the most from Wobb support. With it, he can set and completely rape, without it, he's almost dead weight.
  4. Blim

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    Yeah, you're right. I've been watching mr.lol on the ladder use cloyster + wobb and it's pretty good, although his cloyster hasn't been devastating teams. Even with LO, it failed to hoko bulky arceus after one shell smash. Then again, he had no entry hazards, so that makes sense. Once dw abilites are released and sun teams get more popular [e.g multiscale lugia, regen hooh, ST chandlure] I see cloyster getting more use because these pokemon will be used on teams more, and cloyster can destroy them. It also has a nice niche with the ability to defeat many stall teams cores such as groudon/ lugia/ giratina too [yea everybody already knows this. but it doesnt hurt to repeat it =p].

    If you're serious about using wobb + cloyster, I think the bigger question is what other teammates would you use? Kyogre seems obvious, then ferrothron ,skarmory, forretress, or even a non-steel type like deo-s for hazard support, as for the last two slots am not sure.
  5. polop

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    Nah all Cloyster really needs is rocks to gurantee that OHKO on ferro, wobba to encore set up and it kinda traps ekiller, Kyogre to boost HPUMP and Normal wallceus or Ekiller since the former stops gira-o and ekiller's priority (who ironically pounds only 50% on -1 cloyster) while the ladder takes advantage of the ripped holes in teams and can sweep after a swords dance (great wall gira-a and lugia OHKOed by icicle spear, skarm OHKOed by HPUMP (assuming sturdy is broken) Cloyster outspeeds and OHKOes Scarf Jolly Terrakion via HPUMP).

    Then just throw stuff in to catch momentum and then standard stuff like specs ogre switchin, mewtwo check, etc.

    Another question what partners are good for CB thorn? I've been trying to utilize it but it seems to fail and lure in Forretress instead of mewtwo and arceus <.<.
  6. waterwarrior

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    Keep dreaming (EDIT: no pun intended. I apologize). The only chance Ho-Oh and Lugia had of being released in DW any time soon was the DW vote going on now, but Mudkip pretty much already won that (go to hell 4chan), as they're not releasing legendaries in DW bar events.

    DW Chandelure can't possibly be released. There is no overworld sprite for Chandelure, so you can not receive it in-game from the DW even if it was released.
  7. Blim

    Blim
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    Well...that sucks, my dreams are now crushed [​IMG]
  8. bygbyrd

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    What are some pokes that beat stall ? I know Sub Hone claws Zekrom does good against rain stall, but Groudon walls him so well and it cant do much against offensive teams.
  9. polop

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    o.o, pulls out list.

    Sub-cm Gira-o, everything manaphy runs, Mono-attacking Darkceus, WoW + Taunt Mewtwo beats teams without Ho-oh, Darkrai, Stall breaking Heatran, I guess Whimsicott can Screw it over after Toxic Spikes but IT DOES THAT TO EVERYTHING, Xatu (stop hazards stop stall enough said), Espeon (this one to a lesser extent), Specs Kyogre, CM + 3 Attacks Mewtwo (hard to wall), Blaziken, Deo-D (old school agility taunt) + Deo-A, Specs Dialga, Specs Palkia, Tyranitar and I think there is still like a ton that I haven't listed...
  10. bygbyrd

    bygbyrd

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    Thanks for the comprehensive list Mr lol ! I notice something a lot of these pokes on this list have something in common... they are checked by Scarf Terrakion. Somebody on the ladder had a stall team with rak and this list confirms that's a deadly combo. I run Darkceus to beat stall and the first stall team I go against has a Scarf Terrakion; how lovely. I will try out Sub CM Giritina O.
  11. gookie

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    common stall backbones include: chansey, groudon, kyogre, lugia, ferrothorn, tentacruel, giratina(-o)

    some neat stuff that breaks a lot of these weather cores would be: lustrous palkia, lures and beats stuff like ferrothorn and lugia; DDRayquaza with overheat, 2hko's groudon with outrage, ohko's ferro with overheat and smashes lugia and gira; darkrai, sleep on the right pokemon can really mess up the backbone of stall teams; subhone zek, as previously mentioned; cloyster beats everything a typical stall team carries (ferro with one layer of spikes), but may lose to the rare physically defensive kyogre or manaphy.

    there are probably some more, and i didn't mention some because mr. lol already did
  12. trickroom

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    What? How does Lustrous Orb Palkia beat Lugia, Lugia stalling out Palkia with Toxic seems more likely. Unless it's raining, you can forget about breaking through Lugia, and you said it beats Lugia so you have to switch in on Lugia and defeat it, which is unlikely.

    Cloyster loses to almost everything a typical stall team carries unless you managed to set up. Forretress is one of the most COMMON backbone in stall defeats Cloyster with no trouble at all as even Volt Switch OHKOes a -1 Cloyster after LO damage. There is also Steel Arceus, Bronzong, Jirachi, Defensive Arceus all beat Cloyster in some way. Bronzong can Grass Knot it to OHKO. Jirachi can paralyse or Thunder. Judgment OHKOes you. Physically Defensive Kyogre isn't rare in stall teams at all.

    Rayquaza smashes Giratina but not Lugia. Giratina can defeat Rayquaza with Dragon Tail or cripple it with Will-O-Wisp. You can't OHKO Giratina unboosted. Lugia is supposed to be one of the best Rayquaza counters, and you said Rayquaza smashes it. Also Groudon isn't 2HKOed by unboosted Outrage.
  13. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    I think it's pretty safe to assume rain, when we talk Lustrous Orb Palkia, actually. Surf in the rain does 48.32% - 56.97% to Lugia, which is a pretty comfortable looking 2HKO in my book.

    With SR up, Forretress and Steel Arceus get OHKOed by +2 Hydro Pump (assuming rain again). Pretty sure Bronzong would get smashed as well.
  14. barry4ever

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    I think you missed that Shrang. Nevertheless, it can be pretty safely assumed that every stall team will be using Wobbuffet to Encore and give Cloyster set-up turns. Once it sets up, its only reliable check is Physical Kyogre and to an extent Forretress who can Sturdy a hit and kill with Volt Switch assuming SR is not on. Also Bronzong has a pretty decent chance of surviving +2 Hydro Pump. 32 SpA Cloyster using +2 Hydro Pump does 87.3% - 103% to Bronzong, so i think its over 50% chance of survival for Bronzong even with Stealth Rock.
  15. Banedon

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    Are there any Pokemon other than Arceus and the pink blobs (and Gastrodon / Quagsire, who really are too niche for me) that can switch into Kyogre and still have reliable recovery i.e. be able to do it multiple times over a match?
  16. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Not really. The only thing close is probably Latias, who still needs to be careful around SpecsOgre. Although, since most Kyogres these days are Scarfed, you can switch Latias in pretty safely, actually.
  17. Banedon

    Banedon

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    Oh dear, and the reason I asked was because my specially defensive Dragon Arceus failed to check SpecsKyogre ... looks like I'm stuck with Grass Arceus then ...
  18. gookie

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    +1 Outrage from rayquaza 2hko's lugia, same with groudon; i'm assuming + 1 stats. Obviously don't try and set up on either of these pokemon.

    shrang said everything else i wanted to.
  19. Banedon

    Banedon

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    Considering how so many Ubers are vulnerable to status, why are clerics so uncommon?
  20. ZetoTarken

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    Because out of all the Heal Bell/Aromatherapy users you can only really use Chansey as a cleric and while you can use Chansey on a non-stall oriented team, the blob is a bit of a liability outside of heavier stall teams.
  21. Banedon

    Banedon

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    I've got a team stable enough that I can use any sweeper and get away with it - I know, because I rotated between Darkrai, Giratina-O and Deoxys-A in that last slot and the team did almost exactly the same. With a bit more finesse I should be able to free up two slots for sweepers, including an Arceus forme of choice.

    Which sweepers should I use? The only caveats are that the team has Kyogre in it, so it will usually be raining, and I don't have Rapid Spin / TSpikes absorber, so it'll be hard to use stuff like Ho-oh, although I do (of course) have hazard support elsewhere in the team. I'm thinking of trying some of the lesser-seen or even completely extinct sweepers out there, such as Electric and Ice Arceus. Are there any other underrated or uncommon but perfectly viable sets out there?
  22. polop

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    Since you have Kyogre I would reccomend a swift swim sweeper, like Kingdra, Ludicolo, or even The Monstersmash V2. Problem is I find what you posted way too little information to make a decision. I cannot decide whether you have a lingering Specs Ogre weakness that Lustrous Palkia could patch, nor do I know if you need something speedy if you already have a revenge killer. You have a Kyogre and no spinner, that does not mean you could have a Xatu around quite literally making stall kneel to its feet while running a bit of semi-stall on your own, I can't even get the type of play your using, perhaps it might help to display a bit more elaboration before asking such a question.

    Also its perfectly possible to make a team without Arceus -_-, the DPPT had a metagame before its release lol. It does make life easier by fulfilling two roles at once for a team though, which I feel is the only reason why it should be used over other stuff, way too overated IMO.
  23. Banedon

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    I was going to say I can use any Pokemon whatsoever because I don't need them to cover anything else, but after I went out there and tried it (with Deoxys-A + Darkrai, minimum defensive synergy lol), I was wrong. One slot in the team is essentially free - I can use Deoxys-A and get away with it, which means I can cover every threat in the metagame to some extent with 5 Pokemon - and can be used for anything, but any beyond that and I need to be very careful. But with only that one spot I can't spare the Arceus forme (I've found that Dragon Arceus is an essential part of my remaining 5 Pokemon, although it *might* be replaceable with Latias or Grass Arceus).

    I don't like the Swift Swimmers because they all aren't very strong. In a land of 150 base SpA, Kingdra's base 95 SpA is ludicrously weak, Swift Swim or no. Don't know about Omastar. My experience with Shell Smashers is that you had better sweep with them completely (as in once you Shell Smash, you end game), or be able to Baton Pass out. Omastar doesn't look capable of the first without some heavy team support, and it doesn't learn Baton Pass, so yeah.

    Are there any underrated or effective-but-uncommon non-Arceus sweepers out there that I can use? I know there are a lot of Arceus formes I've never seen before, e.g. Ice / Electric / Bug / Fire Arceus, but off the top of my head I've seen everything else (including for example Choice Band Arceus @_@).

    In my opinion Arceus is an excellent Pokemon. It has only a few outstanding sets (the Extremekiller is one of those) but its versatility is unmatched. Dragon Arceus is on my team solely because of its resists, its bulk, and Recover - I needed a sturdy Water, Fire and Electric resist and Dragon Arceus was there for me. If I need something that can absorb Thunders but still pose a reasonable threat, I can use Ground Arceus; if I need something to absorb Toxic Spikes, I can use Poison Arceus. It is possible to build an effective team without Arceus, but since Arceus is so slippery, it can easily slip into any other Pokemon's role and do it well e.g. if there were no Arceus, I would probably be using Latias, but as it is I can't really see why Latias is not outclassed bar some strange set (Tailwind, Healing Wish, etc) by Dragon Arceus. It's not that Dragon Arceus forces itself into reckoning by its sheer power, but rather that it just does things better than Latias.

    Btw about Xatu, I've faced it a few times but like Gastrodon / Dugtrio / Jynx it seems very niche to me. Sure when it works it works great, but otherwise it's simply a big liability. It doesn't even stop entry hazards reliably: you can stop Forretress (Volt Switch hurts) and Ferrothorn (Gyro Ball hurts), but trying to stop Dialga or Groudon from putting up SR is suicidal. You wrote the analysis; how did it work out for you?
  24. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    Its possible to make a team without Arceus, but IMO, its like playing without SR, you have a disadvantage. He's way too good and the pressure he put on the opponent during the team preview is great, really, there is no reason to not use it unless you just want to be "original".

    Also, concerning your team, you need a filler for the last slot am i right ? If so, we need the 5 other member, its not really useful to give you a filler without the rest of the team.
  25. polop

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    It walls Ferrothorn and Forry and can eliminate them, is not phazed, sets up screens, it even gets Roost to recover off the damage Standard Support Dialga leads do after it outspeeds and Stealth Rocks. Ferro's Gyro Ball won't do much unless its band and then you know its band -> bluff revealed (also good greif MAKING A TEAM WITH CB FERRO IS AS HARD AS FIRE TYPE ARCEUS's HOME). Forry's volt switch doesn't dent it but it does allow an instant check but then you just switch -_-. It's good at what it does but sucks at everything else, so it needs a solid defense core that appreciates its unique talents with quite literally trickroom (referring to king of stall not dimension strategy) high prediction skills to completely nullify the presence of hazards. Even without that high prediction he prevents ferro and forry, and stuff that it has trouble with ONLY gets SR up so your not losing that massive 25% every turn with 3 layers of spikes.

    UNLESS you find something that can do what you want better? SpD Gira-a for example is arguably better then Grassceus at checking Specs Ogre (not 2HKOed and it walls Ho-oh (assuming Roar also spin blocks) sure grassceus has other advantages like beating all non specs / band dragons but chances are the team already handles that), ok that was a really bad example -_-, I'll think of a better one soon... Arceus is like the jack of all trades, king of none, he does a lot of jobs at once due to his movepool and stat distribution, but otherwise he lacks a high stat so he can't go specs THAT much better then a specs Dialga or something. *Tries to think of better examples

    EDIT: UH MEWTWO > Psychic Arceus on HO team? (probably is another bad example but I give up on thinking of one <.<)

    EDIT 2: I HAS QUESTION! In which cases are Arcei inferior to another pokemon at a role?

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