Atk-Def Equality

That reminds me: We have mostly been talking about physically based beasts, which is checked by our based lord Murkrow Banette. For that reason, I would like spark off some discussion on who will be the best special attacking overlords, and what keeps them in check (other than the obvious 'themselves')
 
Assault Vest Regirock, anyone?

Regirock @ Assault Vest
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Power-Up Punch
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

Talk about a bulky sweeper. With amazing base 200 attack and defense, with an okay 100 special defense boosted be Assault Vest, this thing makes it's way from AAA over to this metagame with a whole new role. Just set up a PuP or two, and recover off any damage with Drain Punch, while hitting hard with EdgeQuake. If it's in sand, this thing becomes even more insane wall.
 
That reminds me: We have mostly been talking about physically based beasts, which is checked by our based lord Murkrow Banette. For that reason, I would like spark off some discussion on who will be the best special attacking overlords, and what keeps them in check (other than the obvious 'themselves')
Chansey keeps them in check(obviously)
but since you requested:

If you're going to use a special wallbreaker you have almost no reason not to run Regice.
 
While Chansey certainly keep them in check, we have much bulkier/stronger Psychic types that can use Psyshock effectively like Cresselia which can also make 101 HP Subs. Question would be what are some of the less passive special walls to check these. NP+Taunt Azelf can also be another formidable threat with its newfound bulk, being able to 2HKO Chansey with +2 Psyshock, and surviving stuff like Adamant Regirock Stone Edge.
 
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NFEs that now have over 500 BST (Porygon2 was already there but still a nice bonus). The added bulk is exponentially beneficial to some thanks to Eviolite (Tangela, Magneton, Magmar), while others gained the offensive presence that may have previously held them back (Dusclops, Chansey, lolOnix? that's the fastest and hardest hitting EdgeQuake in the game you're looking at)

Dusclops 40/130/130/130/130/25
Tangela 65/115/115/100/100/60
Scyther 70/110/110/80/80/105
Magneton 50/95/95/120/120/70
Magmar 65/95/95/100/100/93
Porygon2 85/90/90/105/105/60
Electabuzz 65/83/83/95/95/105
Chansey 250/5/5/105/105/50
Seadra 55/95/95/95/95/85
Onix 35/160/160/45/45/70
Sneasel 55/95/95/75/75/115
Nosepass 30/135/135/90/90/30
Sliggoo 68/75/75/113/113/60

EDIT: Also, never mind Mega Aggron. Regular old Aggron is bringing about that STAB Rock Head / Head Smash off 180 Attack. Choice Band and go to work.
Steelix' Gyro Ball is the only thing that can hit harder unboosted, but opponent must have a minimum of 322 Speed (ie. max investment + nature base 97 at minimum, or same investment scarfed 48 lol) to match with 138 BP.

252+ Atk Shuckle Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 280-330 (82.1 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 280-331 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 290-345 (85 - 101.1%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 295-348 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 290-350 (85 - 102.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 312-368 (91.4 - 107.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Thrash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 319-376 (93.5 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Aggron Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 336-396 (98.5 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Aggron Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 345-406 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Steelix Gyro Ball (138 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 345-406 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Steelix Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 373-441 (109.3 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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Probopass is now the go to way to trap steel types, if we're talking special attackers. While it isn't as fast as Zone, it has a 60/145/145/150/150/40 stat line that pretty much allows it to trap everything bar Exca. It doesn't get STAB elec for Skarm but we're talking about a Pokemon that possesses the bulk of gods here. The best role of proboscrub in this meta is probs going to be to trap stupid stuff like Skarm/Ferro/Registeel who all got huge offensive buffs just by existing. This will free up SO much space for stuff such as M-Dos in this meta. hereby patenting a probopass/m-gyara core because that is going to be stupid strong.

To be honest special attackers really got shafted in this meta and I'm going to be running 1/team max bc they honestly aren't that great. I already have a shell of a team in that should be cool if this ever becomes playable.
 
So, who would be better? Latios or Latias? Also, Sharpedo finally has some bulk to work with, and Shiftry isn't looking too bad either. Both Thundurus formes are looking pretty scary with their new bulk, along with Torn-T, Zoroark, and many others.

EDIT: I know this isn't released (and if I'm not allowed to mention unreleased mons, sry) but Volcanion tho. With 80/120/130 defenses and 120/130/70 offenses, it'll be scary af (once it's released).
 
So, who would be better? Latios or Latias? Also, Sharpedo finally has some bulk to work with, and Shiftry isn't looking too bad either. Both Thundurus formes are looking pretty scary with their new bulk, along with Torn-T, Zoroark, and many others.

EDIT: I know this isn't released (and if I'm not allowed to mention unreleased mons, sry) but Volcanion tho. With 80/120/130 defenses and 120/130/70 offenses, it'll be scary af (once it's released).
I guess Latias bc Healing Wish? lol


Also how well do you all think Regice will do in this meta? I'm currently thinking sub/lefties with Ice Beam/Tbolt/Fblast as it gives solid coverage, and can take on some premier walls well such as Tangela. Thoughts?
 
Mega Garchomp tho

Dat balk

Also steelix jesus christ:

252+ Atk Choice Band Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 450-529 (111.3 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

also is nobody gonna talk about base 180 atk cloyster
 
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I guess Latias bc Healing Wish? lol


Also how well do you all think Regice will do in this meta? I'm currently thinking sub/lefties with Ice Beam/Tbolt/Fblast as it gives solid coverage, and can take on some premier walls well such as Tangela. Thoughts?
The problem with it is it's awful typing, making it hard to sweep (or tank) with no way to patch it's defense like Regirock can, and a lot of the new threats being physical attackers. So, overall, it's speed is too low to be a very good sweeper, and it's defense/typing make it hard to wall many physical attacks, making it easily revenge killable. It's upside is that if it DOES come in on a special pokemon, it will either force a switch or likely kill with stab Ice Beam.

252+ Atk Shuckle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regice: 560-660 (153.8 - 181.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shuckle: 99-117 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Regice Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 186-220 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO (Chansey still laughs at it)
252+ SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Regice: 190-226 (52.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 159-187 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
The problem with it is it's awful typing, making it hard to sweep (or tank) with no way to patch it's defense like Regirock can, and a lot of the new threats being physical attackers. So, overall, it's speed is too low to be a very good sweeper, and it's defense/typing make it hard to wall many physical attacks, making it easily revenge killable. It's upside is that if it DOES come in on a special pokemon, it will either force a switch or likely kill with stab Ice Beam.

252+ Atk Shuckle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regice: 560-660 (153.8 - 181.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shuckle: 99-117 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Regice Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 186-220 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO (Chansey still laughs at it)
252+ SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Regice: 190-226 (52.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 159-187 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

oh nvm rip regice


and Rosenfeldius I think a CB Cloyster may actually be viable - getting 5 hits from a 180 atk does a lot lol


252+ Atk Choice Band Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0+ Def Regirock: 215-260 (59 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
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The problem with it is it's awful typing, making it hard to sweep (or tank) with no way to patch it's defense like Regirock can, and a lot of the new threats being physical attackers. So, overall, it's speed is too low to be a very good sweeper, and it's defense/typing make it hard to wall many physical attacks, making it easily revenge killable. It's upside is that if it DOES come in on a special pokemon, it will either force a switch or likely kill with stab Ice Beam.

252+ Atk Shuckle Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regice: 560-660 (153.8 - 181.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Shuckle: 99-117 (40.5 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Regice Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 186-220 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO (Chansey still laughs at it)
252+ SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Regice: 190-226 (52.1 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 159-187 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Don't forget Regice gets Rock Polish.

EDIT:
That either makes is required to run max speed to outspeed invested base 100's, which makes it either hit less hard, or get hurt much easier, and that puts it at risk of a free switch in to a counter, forcing Regice to either switch or take the pain
Point taken. Rock Polish would also be useless against stall (not that it'll be around much). Instead, how about Specs Regice? With Specs, Regice accomplishes what most Special Attackers (without Psyshock or Secret Sword or Specs Kyogre) could never dream of, and that's 2HKOing Chansey.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Regice Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 306-360 (47.6 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Regice Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 306-360 (47.6 - 56%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
 
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Don't forget Regice gets Rock Polish.
That either makes it required to run max speed to outspeed invested base 100's, which makes it either hit less hard, or get hurt much easier, and that puts it at risk of a free switch in to a counter, forcing Regice to either switch or take the pain.

Also, Mega Absol might actually be able to use it's ability now, with 150 defense and 115 special defense. It's HP still sucks, though. Also, Entei gets a nice defense buff up to 115/115/90 defenses, with access to Sacred Fire to give things burns, so it could be a decent physical sponge for neutral hits. (Too bad it doesn't get recovery)

Wailord also gets an awesome defensive buff with 170/90/90 defenses, and with pressure could make a decent able to run a decent RestTalk set. It has some more options Snorlax doesn't like Aqua Ring, Roar, and Whirlpool too.
 
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That's not how it works. IIRC it has base 50 speed, which means that the first Mon to outspeed a +2 would be a fully invested base 150 (source: Azumarill has the equivalent of a base 150 attack, not 100.)
 
That's not how it works. IIRC it has base 50 speed, which means that the first Mon to outspeed a +2 would be a fully invested base 150 (source: Azumarill has the equivalent of a base 150 attack, not 100.)
Uninvested base 50 speed Regice reaches 136 speed. 136*2 is 272. However, a Mega Medicham with 252 speed EVs reach 299 speed. If Regice was fully invested with Timid it would reach 218 speed, making it 436 after Rock Polish, outspeeding Timid base 148's. It's a big difference between being invested and not. (If any of my math is incorrect here, call me out on it. Still a bit early in the morning.) It's like Azumarill, if you didn't invest him in attack, he would only have roughly the attack of fully invested base 75. (Sitting at 272 when adding in Huge Power, where fully invested Slowbro reaches 273.
 
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Uninvested base 50 speed Regice reaches 136 speed. 136*2 is 272. However, a Mega Medicham with 252 speed EVs reach 299 speed. If Regice was fully invested with Timid it would reach 218 speed, making it 436 after Rock Polish, outspeeding Timid base 148's. It's a big difference between being invested and not. (If any of my math is incorrect here, call me out on it. Still a bit early in the morning.) It's like Azumarill, if you didn't invest him in attack, he would only have roughly the attack of fully invested base 75. (Sitting at 272 when adding in Huge Power, where fully invested Slowbro reaches 273.
If you're using Medicham, Azumarill, or Rock Polish Regice, it's kinda assumed that you'd be fully invested. Besides, you probably wouldn't want to go Timid anyways, fully invested Modest outspeeds Timid 131s at +2 and there's nothing between 131 and 148 anyways.

Specs Regice could be interesting as well. Too bad its Defense is so easy to take advantage of.
 
Uninvested base 50 speed Regice reaches 136 speed. 136*2 is 272. However, a Mega Medicham with 252 speed EVs reach 299 speed. If Regice was fully invested with Timid it would reach 218 speed, making it 436 after Rock Polish, outspeeding Timid base 148's. It's a big difference between being invested and not. (If any of my math is incorrect here, call me out on it. Still a bit early in the morning.) It's like Azumarill, if you didn't invest him in attack, he would only have roughly the attack of fully invested base 75. (Sitting at 272 when adding in Huge Power, where fully invested Slowbro reaches 273.
That sounds about right. Your original post made it sound like you thought you needed full investment to outrun the base 100
 
If you're using Medicham, Azumarill, or Rock Polish Regice, it's kinda assumed that you'd be fully invested. Besides, you probably wouldn't want to go Timid anyways, fully invested Modest outspeeds Timid 131s at +2 and there's nothing between 131 and 148 anyways.

Specs Regice could be interesting as well. Too bad its Defense is so easy to take advantage of.
It was just for the sake of the debate, I never said any of them were viable. If you saw my other post up there, I already discussed how running 252 speed EVs on Regice sacrifices either power, or survivability when using Rock Polish. To be honest, Regirock is probably better, being able to patch up it's SpDef with AV and/or sand, able to boost it's attack with Power Up Punch, and being viable as a defensive tank with Drain Punch/Amazing defense.
 
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Cloyster looks OP as fuck:
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-A: 380-455 (157.6 - 188.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and,
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Shuckle: 370-440 (151.6 - 180.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
not to mention,
252 Atk Shuckle Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 228-270 (94.6 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
this is max invested, and Cloyster can still take it.

also, AV Scrafty is better than ever if you BPass it some speed boosts(and maybe a swords dance):
+2 224 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 264-312 (109.5 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Scrafty: 281-333 (84.8 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
this reminds me of a 350 cup scraggy vs an Abra:
252 SpA Abra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Scraggy: 252-300 (82.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
lawl. like father, like son.
 
Cloyster looks OP as fuck:
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-A: 380-455 (157.6 - 188.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and,
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Shuckle: 370-440 (151.6 - 180.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
not to mention,
252 Atk Shuckle Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 228-270 (94.6 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
this is max invested, and Cloyster can still take it.

also, AV Scrafty is better than ever if you BPass it some speed boosts(and maybe a swords dance):
+2 224 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 264-312 (109.5 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Scrafty: 281-333 (84.8 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
this reminds me of a 350 cup scraggy vs an Abra:
252 SpA Abra Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Scraggy: 252-300 (82.8 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
lawl. like father, like son.
I stopped reading there.

Also lmao 0/0- Deo-A. Which is Uber so I don't know why it's even being brought up.

IMO Cloyster isn't the end-all powerful mon everyone's making it out to be. Neither is Shuckle. Or Kyurem-B, Landorus-T, or Steelix. It's amazing once it's set up, sure, but it's fairly easy to revenge kill once set up due to mediocre defenses (if LO/KR/NVI/Lum), or if it has White Herb it's easier to tank a hit and strike back (this along with any damage it took switching in/on the setup turn). In the absence of SR (on either side!) a full health Shuckle can take down a set-up Cloyster in return for its own life, for example. Kyurem-B can take one +2 Rock Blast (though barely, and also depending on items/EVs) and nearly OHKO back with Fusion Bolt. Shuckle itself is useless if it gets Burned, and 20/230/230 defenses, especially uninvested, aren't exactly world-class. Kyurem-B can now take one Bullet Punch from CB Scizor after SR. Big whoop. It still suffers from a shitty typing (and Kyurem-N does SubRoost better anyways because Pressure). Landorus-T still lacks reliable recovery, as does Steelix.

(That's not to say that no mon is broken, just that none of them are the level of "lol how the fuck do I beat this thing" like Kyogre would be in OU.)
 
252 SpA Blissey Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Garchomp: 424-500 (100.9 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
this might look good(ok), but blissey has to give up it's defensive EVs which allows,
0 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Blissey: 661-778 (101.3 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and notice this is 0 attack evs, and just 4 sp. def evs.
MegaChomp will be more worth it with higher bulk than regular 'chomp:
252 SpA Blissey Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Garchomp: 292-344 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
it took an av plus considerable defensive EVs to take one Blizzard, and the chomp does not want to be stuck with an Assault Vest.

lesson: NEVER USE REGULAR 'CHOMP!
 
252 SpA Blissey Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Garchomp: 424-500 (100.9 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
this might look good(ok), but blissey has to give up it's defensive EVs which allows,
0 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0+ Def Blissey: 661-778 (101.3 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and notice this is 0 attack evs, and just 4 sp. def evs.
MegaChomp will be more worth it with higher bulk than regular 'chomp:
252 SpA Blissey Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Garchomp: 292-344 (69.5 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
it took an av plus considerable defensive EVs to take one Blizzard, and the chomp does not want to be stuck with an Assault Vest.

lesson: NEVER USE REGULAR 'CHOMP!
Why are you pitting Blissey against Chomp? Blissey has like base 10 Def; no matter how much HP it has, it does not want to take ANY physical hit. Moreover, you've given Blissey no investment in HP nor Defense.
 
Why are you pitting Blissey against Chomp? Blissey has like base 10 Def; no matter how much HP it has, it does not want to take ANY physical hit. Moreover, you've given Blissey no investment in HP nor Defense.
I did this to prove Megachomp can take a 4x hit from a decent Sp. Attk.

Also, your name is weird.
 

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