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Auto weather poll

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by MeteorMiss, Jan 23, 2013.

?

What should Smogon do regarding auto weather?

  1. Ban Drizzle

    149 vote(s)
    26.9%
  2. Ban all Auto-weather

    112 vote(s)
    20.3%
  3. Keep it as it is

    292 vote(s)
    52.8%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. yoshinator879

    yoshinator879

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    The problem of having to have type synergy between Pokemon is not exclusive to rain, and neither is the problem of having to have Pokemon take powerful moves that are common in the metagame. That is not an argument against rain.
  2. Hugin

    Hugin

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    Yes, but Rain is one more force multiplier that people have to deal with. STAB Hydro Pump with Specs in Rain is the equivalent of BP 405 move unSTABed coming from a scarfer. Without Rain it's BP 270. No one worries about whether their special wall can specifically handle Alakazam, Gengar, or Espeon, all of which are faster with higher SAtk than the pony. Keldeo is the one you have to build specifically to block. Rain is responsible for that.
  3. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    So maybe Latios is just a better pokemon than Hydreigon? (Faster, hits harder, better typing etc etc). I don't see how this is an arguement to ban Drizzle or even what it has to do with Drizzle in the first place. Sand will always be common. even if we banned Drizzle (heck id even argue it would be more common if we gave Drizzle the boot) due to it having solid abusers in Landorus and Stoutland and being able to use Tyranitar (or Hippowdon if they want to avoid Tales + Trio combo) which is / are arguably better pokemon than Politoed and Ninetales (factoring out the weather support abilities of course).

    Don't get this point very much either. O.k, so maybe Hydriegon isn't that great on Sand, but its been used very well on both sun and rain teams so your implication that weather prevents you using Hydreigon on your teams is false. Also, Dragon / Fighting / Water on rain Hydriegon is perfectly fine (when that water move is boosted under Rain) giving it perfect coverage outside of Shedinja.

    I agree with your next point about water resists tho I never found it constraining my teambuilding very much, if at all.
  4. Seven Eagles

    Seven Eagles

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    Remember how auto-weather unbalanced DPP so badly that you couldn't even use level 1 kyogre and groudon to induce weather? Why exactly did we not go that route again?

    Oh, right, because people on some level enjoy using autoweather teams because they give a cheap power boost, especially rain. Choice Specs Politoed should not be able to punch holes in teams with Hydro Pump but having access to triple STAB on an attack takes even its mediocre attacking prowess to unprecedented levels.

    There's just as much bias from people who want to keep drizzle as there is from people who want to remove weather.

    I'll admit that removing Drizzle would also remove any reason to use Parasect or Toxicroak in OU as well as some other pokes I'm probably forgetting about but seriously there is no reason to keep Drizzle except for the fact that people go hurr rain teams fun.

    I realize I'm also pretty heavily biased, although I've tried rain teams before, but at least I can admit it. I also realize I don't have as much experience as other users and am willing to hear any argument as to why Drizzle is actually very good for this meta.

    tl;dr: We should suspect test Drizzle much like everything else. It isn't sacred.
  5. Eggbert

    Eggbert

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    It's because this metagame forces standard team builds to try and check every relevant threat. It makes it so you have to use the Lati@s or you will have no way of checking everything. Take a team with Lati@s and replace it with Hydreigon and you lose the ability to check Venusaur, Tentacruel, Keldeo, and much of the water types on rain. The metagame makes it so using anything but the standards we have inefficient and difficult.

    Also, as a side note, Hydreigon hits harder than Latios because it can run mild without losing a speed tier. Hydreigon also had the advantage of being impossible to "perpetually" wall with a Tyranitar or Jirachi, and can force a KO each time without having counters it can't break.

    What's wrong with sand? It doesn't give rock moves a 50% boost for the most part nor does it weaken bug or ice moves. It wasn't killing the metagame in gen 4, and its only powerful abuser is banned. Landorus doesn't abuse sand with its most potent set, the rock polish sheer force set. It is one of the best sweepers in the game but its abilities are isolated from weather and more related to the fact that it essentially has 2 life orbs with no recoil with rock polish and amazing coverage and STAB options. Stoutland isn't anything to write home about, since it only has 100 base attack, few resistances to switch in on, and the tendency to get walled easily regardless of weather.
  6. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    I'm seeing some major logical flaws with the match-up argument.

    Q1: Why, if team matchups matter so much in these matches, is Drizzle / Drought responsible? As I remember, one of BKC's main examples was rain offense vs sand stall. Rain offense is supposed lose against sand stall. So... why is Drizzle guilty in a case like this? If anything, this proves that Drizzle is NOT broken because what do you know, that team archetype actually HAS a hard counter. Why is rain offense broken if it gets completely destroyed by sand stall? This makes no sense whatsoever. Yes, I know there is more to this argument because it just breaks down the metagame into weather vs. weather and therefore if you run one weather style, you have a major advantage, but this, I believe, is too simplistic. Why is weather being blamed? What about weather, that creates these team matchups? Another example I've heard is basically "kill the opposing weather inducer and you win". Without even going into how overly simplistic and naive that statement actually is, if the weather conditions actually all mutually counter each other, why they broken? What makes this different from "kill the opposing Steel-type and rampage your opponent with Dragon-types"? If say... Sand stall > Rain offense > Sun offense > Weatherless > Sand stall (I just made that up, it's probably wrong, but if we have some sort of system that weather conditions mutually counter each other), are any of those actually broken? I don't think so.

    I'll get to more later, but I'm kind of busy now.
  7. yoshinator879

    yoshinator879

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    If you think that Blissey doesn't worry about Alakazam, I dare you to bring it in on my choice specs Focus Blast. I agree that strong water moves are scary, but I disagree that it is reason to ban drizzle.

    That's because Kyogre and Groudon are obviously Uber material. Look at their base stats. I agree that rain should be suspected, but I don't think that water moves being strong in rain makes it broken.
  8. Sound

    Sound

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    I've come to a descision. I am pro-ban for Drizzle.

    Some people are saying banning Drizzle would kill the playstyle. Maybe that's exactly what needs to happen. When it becomes clear that one playstyle is superior to every other, that makes it ban-worthy. Especially when we are able to take it out in one fell swoop (by banning Politoed). Here are the predicted counter arguements and my responses:

    I have precedence on my side here. During early BW, when HO was powerful with Deo-S, did we ban Terrakion/Scarfty/Dragonite/Scizor, or Deo-S? When dealing with a bee problem, do you fight bees off that are swarming around you, or you do destroy the hive? Rain's nature makes otherwise average pokemon so much more difficult to deal with, and already good pokemon beyond the limit (Seriously, Hurricane's low accuracy without Rain? Tell that to Moltres.)

    Then ban Sun too. In DPPt, Garchomp leaving makes the Lati@s so much harder to revenge kill? We don't keep Garchomp in for the sole purpose of countering the Lati@s, we ban the Lati@s! Two broken things does not a balanced metagame make. It's simply a metagame with two broken things that don't belong.

    That was during BW1. The metagame has changed. This arguement has no merit. If the metagame stay static, then retests are purposeless.

    This has to be the most insulting, condescending arguement I've ever seen. Seriously, we've tried to nerf rain on multiple ocasions (Manaphy, SS, Torn-T, Thund-I) and Rain is still superior to every other playstyle.

    How I define superior:


    There are exactly two factors in my mind for a superior team type.
    • The team type is incredibly dangerous when played to its fullest.
    • The team type is incredibly easy to play to its fullest.
    There are more ways to define superior (versatility, overall match-ups versus other teams/threats), but for the sake of this arguement, I'm only considering just these two (for now). Rain is very easy to build (Slap on Ferro to cover dragons and hazard, Tenta to beat fighting and fire types and spin, and you already have two important roles and tons of prominent threats covered). Versus weatherless, which needs a Dragon type counter (unable to use one of the best two, Ferro, due to being Solar bait), a rain counter (similar to the Dragon example, great ones like Toxicroak and several Water types like Gyrados flounder versus Sun, so the actual pool is pretty much Latias, Celebi, Dragonite, Jellicient). Then, I need a sun counter (two if I don't use Heatran, as I'll need to cover both Fire spam and Growth sweepers). Then, I need a fighting type check. If I choose Latias or Celebi in previous steps, I may be fine. Except that relying on one pokemon to check two very powerful forces is unreliable, so I personally would add another check to be safe. Then, other stragglers like Rachi, Breloom, Mamoswine, Scizor, etc.

    A good deal of Rain's team building simply falls into place naturally, while weatherless's doesn't. Rain simply needs to cover a few prominent threats and be able to win the weather war (which, unlike Sun, very rarely requires them to use a team slot or two for the whole purpose). Weatherless needs to be able to cover 3 powerful weather conditions, and prominent threats. It also has to avoid using 'mons weak to certain weather to cover this stuff. Great counters (Like Toxicroak and Kingdra to Rain) are rendered useless against other conditions. This is without counting utility roles like a hazard setter, or a spinner. Weatherless in general forces you to use a ton of work just to stand a chance, while Rain pretty much falls into place like a five year old's puzzle. A metagame with Rain simply doesn't encourage creativity due to Rain (and, to a lesser extent, Sun) making tons of pokemon liabilities.

    In conclusion; Rain (and weather in general) makes a fair number of pokemon either weaker or outright liabilities due to their effects, while very few pokemon are more viable as a result.
  9. Nyara

    Nyara

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    He said at level 1, it other words, Pokémon without useful moves, stats, or anthing similar, JUST weather casters, and that was enough to unbalance the entire meta of DPP, just making it clear. (Some people tried them at level 70 if I rebember ok, those make them still with low-avarage stats and movesets, level 100 Politoed is a lot stronger than level 70 Kyogre).
  10. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    O.k, so say we ban Drizzle, and um, these pokemon all still exist? You will still use Latios to check Venusaur, and Keldeo (which will still be good) and Terrakion and everything else Latios checks better than Hydreigon (heck it can check dragons a hell of a lot better than Hydriegon due to outspeeding most of them (if they lack a boost or Scarf), and its scarf set isn't terrible anyway if you want to go down that route). The metagame will ALWAYS have "standards", pokemon that are better than others in OU. Sure, this is driven by the metagame itself, but many of the pokemon you listed will still see use regardless if Drizzle is banned. Are you still going to complain after we (say) ban all weather and Hydriegon is STILL not used more than Latios?

    I sorta of try and get what you are saying, but I think your example is not that great or something, idk. Also I don't get this bit...

    Doesn't like, every metagame do this? Like in DPP everyone would have a Starmie check or something because its an OU threat, just like everyone tries to make sure their team has an answer to most common threats? Sure, Drizzle brings many more threats to the table, so I can see why people want to suspect it, but asking to ban Drizzle because it makes people use pokemon to check it is ridiculous.

    Technically if you don't run a + speed nature you lose to +spe Kyurem-B and Haxorus and random other shit im prolly forgetting but whatever.

    So um, I hope you understand I was not arguing for a sandstorm ban. I was just remarking that Stoutland and Landorus are decent abusers for Sand, and in a game without Rain, those abusers would see use, heck Stoutland teams (and Landorus )saw a lot of use in BW1, were actually very strong, and I doubt that would change if Drizzle left. Landorus would still have the option of Sand Force (which would arguably be much more viable with a Drizzle ban) and Stoutland still has the ability to revenge kill a shitload of things. I am by no means claiming they would be the next top tier standard team in BW2 if Drizzle left, but you underrate Sand so much its not even funny.

    Man why the fuck didn't you just say that instead of claiming / implying banning Drizzle would make Hydreigon used more than Latios -_-
  11. Eggbert

    Eggbert

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    Yes, but without drizzle the team building process is much more free. One half to one third of a team won't be set from the beginning and there will be less roles and pokemon to counter with more space to do so. And yes there will be standards, but the same few standards won't be as necessary and there will be more options. No matter what the metagame is there are standards, they won't go away, but there will be more or less viable pokemon depending on the metagame.

    Hydreigon will not be used more than Latios, that is not the point. The point is that more options become viable and easier to use with the ban of drizzle, and most forms of auto weather in general.

    I know. Sand force lando, even in a sand dominate metagame, was really just used as a top tier scarfer most of the time due to u-turn and its poor speed stat without scarf. I'm not underrating it, but it doesn't have the same benefits as drizzle without excadrill.

    I thought I did :(
  12. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    I don't usually agree wholeheartedly with a post.

    But when I do, its a 10/10 on points made.



    Theorymonning gets us nowhere, past experiences are our best teacher on what the best course of action to take is. The issue is simply weather it worth it to play with the whether. I personally suggest banning drizzle/toed first and seeing where we go from there, for all we know sun could "not" be broken *my hypothesis personally* even without rain, although Venusaur probably could. In the place of Keldeo, Starmie and various other water spammers we will have infernape, Heatran and the few fire types waiting to creep into OU.

    ^edit: ninja'd lol
  13. Brave Bird spam

    Brave Bird spam

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    I don't think rain is broken because there are plenty of pokes that counter rain. Starmie, ferrothorn, rotom-w, celebi, gastrodon... I find that a lot of the time I don't need to consider rain as much as some people make it seem like because all of these pokemon are great on any team, not only one that needs a rain counter. Rain or no, every team should have a solid answer to water and electric moves anyway, so it isn't like it's new having to counter them.

    Then there are the bans that have already been issued. Rain lost its biggest abusers when swift swim+drizzle was banned, and another with torn-t.The majority of remaining abusers are way easier to handle.
    In addition, politoed isn't exactly a fantastic pokemon, there is a reason it sucked before BW. I think of it like 4th gen suicide leads, that allowed you to start the game with SR but one pokemon short. Of course, toed isn't complete dead weight, but as an individual pokemon it's nowhere near as good as tyranitar or hippowdon. I think rain is powerful, but it isn't broken and shouldn't be banned unless some crazy new drizzle pokemon gets released in X and Y.
  14. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
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    Get this man a badge!

    I love this because this is exactly how I feel. We've banned far too many things just to nerf Rain. Half of which aren't even remotely broken on their own. *looking at Manaphy and Tornadus-T* How many more Pokemon are we going to throw under a bus to save Politoed? We all breathed a sigh of relief when Swift Swim was banned because we thought that would be the end of it. But here were are THREE more bans later, looking for the next way to nerf Drizzle. Still! Still! Still!!

    ...This shouldn't even be a debate. We should be out suspect testing already. Two ladders, one with Drizzle and one with it banned, climbing to the top of both. There's no arguement to be made on Drizzle's behalf. I'll quote myself because I firmly stand by these words:
    I cut out the last sentence because I was referring to Sun, but I realize that just because something broken keeps something else from being broken is absolutely no reason whatsoever to keep it in the tier.

    Let's dust this bitch once and for all.
  15. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    This is aboslutely false and this is the kind of mindset that makes people so eager to blame Drizzle for any of their problems with the current meta. Of 'course there is a point to use something else. You use weatherless team for the following reasons that matter from a competitieve standpoint (of 'course i can use weatherless because it is harder to build than weather and thus more challening, but this is not a competitive reason to use weatherless):

    1. To not use Politoed / Tyranitar / Hippowdon / Ninetales / Abomasnow. Yeah believe it or not, some people don't want to use these Pokemon. Why? Because they don't want to support and play games that revolve around a mediocre/bad standalone Pokemon (Politoed and Ninetales), they don't want a slow wall/tank in their team or don't want to take extra damage from Sand (Hippowdon, Tyranitar), or don't want to use a Pokemon that is hard to play with and has a lot of flaws to cover, while forcing a very specific teambuild (Abomasnow).

    2. To use Pokemon that don't like weather or don't get enough benefits from it to care for weather support. Such examples are SubRoost Kyu-B, Forretress, Weavile, Kingdra, Latias, Alakazam, Breloom, Celebi, Gliscor, Blissey, Chansey, and Lucario.

    3. To have more flexibility in teambuilding. Yeah i know that many people will disagree with this but let me explain. Imo, the team-types that limit your choices in teambuilding the most are any kind of Rain team, any kind of Sun team, and any kind of Hail team (not 100% sure about the last, but Hail is not largely relevant anyway). This means that weatherless and Sand teams give you the largest flexibility when teambuilding. While it is true that weatherless teams must devote two to three slots to deal with sun and rain, the Pokemon that can deal with them are many and the weatherless team still has 3-4 slots to work around with. Why not use a sand team someone can ask here, to better combat opposing weather... And i will tell him to look again reason 1.

    Now that we are done with the reasons as to why one would want to use a weatherless team, let's look at the other bolded sentences. You say that if you use a standard team (i imagine you mean weather team here, or heavy offense with Deo-D or DragMag) you will have a more stable team. Where are you basing this? Judging from this thread one could say that by using Rain and Sun, you have a less stable team than by using a Sand or weatherless team, because your games rely a lot on match-up. Weatherless teams have more slots available to deal with their weaknesses making them potentially more stable than ''standard team-types''. Your last bolded sentence is also false and not backed up with any reasoning, as weatherless teams are not handicaped at all against weather teams. A crappy weatherless team will be handicaped against a crappy weather team sure, because the latter is easier to build, but a good weatherless team can face any weather team without many trouble (except for specific weaknesses, not weakness to the whole team-type). I don't know why some people want to underastimate weatherless team so much. Is it because they can't build them? Or is it because they just dislike Drizzle so much that they are convinced anything non-standard doesn't work? I honestly don't know, but what i know is that i play with weatherless teams a lot, and they are just fine!

    I am tired of running multiple steels and Mamoswine on my teams just to stop DragMag teams from overwhelming me, or to stop Dragons in general from destroying me. I am tired of running Rapid Spinners in my teams so that hazard-stacking teams don't eat me alive.

    These are just some of the few examples that show how void of meaning your first sentence is. OF 'course you can argue that Steel-types are not used only to check Dragons, but also because they have a marvelous defensive typing, and then i can say that water-resists are also not used only to deal with water attacks and have many other useful things that they do. And fitting a bulky water resist in your team is not difficult at all anyway. Celebi, Latias, Kyurem-B, Amoonguss, Ferrothorn, Jellicent, and Rotom-W are all good Pokemon that can fit on any team and have multiple roles (most of them).

    Every major threat in a meta needs to be heavily taken account for, or else you will end up losing a lot. This is why many people don't like OU. Because they are tired of using the same Pokemon to check the same Pokemon over and over again. Weather is exactly like other top-tier threats when teambuilding, you have to take account for it and use strong measures against it, or else you won't make a good team.

    You are comparing different situations. What made Deo-S broken was the fact that it could give any offensive Pokemon that support to sweep through teams, not a few select ones. This means that even if you got rid of the 3-4 stronger OU Pokemon, then next stronger would take their place, or a defensive Pokemon would be banned, because offense would be way too weak to break through defense. So banning Deo-S was clearly the best solution. But with Politoed this is not the case. There were 3-4 Pokemon banned because of it, and no more. The way that rain is now, it isn't broken. So the problem here could actually be solved by banning the abusers, rather than the supporter, because the abusers weren't that many in comparison to the Pokemon that found life to OU thanks to rain.

    You also say something about rain being the superior playstyle, which i won't bother arguing as it isn't relevant anyway, but even if we assume it is, so what? There will always be more dominant strategies in competitive games, not anything can be equal. And as said again the way that rain teams are now they are not broken, so what is the reason to ban them?
  16. Fireburn

    Fireburn BARN ALL
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    I believe it should really be "What exactly are the downsides to retesting Drizzle?" Because I don't see why we can't.

    Look, I think we all can agree that the community does not see eye-to-eye on this issue. Both sides have pretty good arguments for keeping and/or banning Drizzle. (I'm not going to specifically say which arguments are good, because that's not the point of this post.) Yet there is no hard evidence. The fact of the matter is that we do not have the benefit of cold, hard data from a suspect test with Drizzle as the only variable so that we can conclusively put this issue to rest once and for all. Otherwise, how can we know for sure Drizzle is healthy or not for the metagame? Without a standard present for comparison, how do we know Drizzle makes the metagame better or not?

    Some of you may say Drizzle was already given fair consideration when we voted on Aldaron's Proposal. But stop and consider this for a moment: is there a law that says we cannot retest a potential suspect or revisit a questionable decision? Are the tiers so set in stone that we cannot test a suspect again after it was deemed broken if conditions have changed? Of course not. In fact, we did it before. That's right: we have an established precedent.

    Anyone remember Stage 3 in 4th Gen OU Suspect Testing? You know, the round where we brought back ALL the previous suspects for one giant retest, all or most of whom were sitting comfortably in Ubers?

    The reason why we did that, if memory serves correctly, is because, though we knew each of those suspects were broken on their own as proven by other tests (except for maybe Latias, but even she was banned later down the road), we wanted to see if they were broken when all of them were present in a different environment. That is because we knew the metagame would clearly be different in an environment where, say, Latios was the only suspect rather than one in which Latios, Garchomp, Manaphy, Shaymin-S, and Deoxys-S were all ALSO being tested. And, looking at Gen 5, the inverse is true: while we tested Drizzle (and voted to keep it) in environments with multiple suspects, we never voted on Drizzle when it was the only suspect. In previous suspect tests (5th gen Stages 2-5), we did vote on Drizzle, but it was always competing with other variables such as Deoxys-S, Blaziken, Thundurus-I, and Excadrill. But now they're all gone. The environment has changed. All of the other suspects have been dealt with...except Drizzle in isolation.

    Frankly, if we can bring down all of our previously banned suspects for massive retest as we've done before in Gen 4, I do not see why we can't do the same in Gen 5 for one suspect. I don't see why we can't go back and get conclusive evidence to settle an issue that a significant portion of the community has a problem with. Personally, I think 45-47% of the community (at least those that voted in the poll) wanting to ban or restrict auto-weather in some form is a significant figure that cannot simply be brushed aside. Without evidence, that is.

    And why wait to get that evidence? Gen 6 won't be here for about nine more months. Almost a whole year away. Seriously, we can go on and on about theoretical scenarios, but the simple fact of the matter is that no one is going to stop arguing until we get a conclusive result. We have time. We are not going to "ruin" a metagame that we supposedly have no time to fix. What we will get is a definite answer to the question of Drizzle so we can stop worrying about it and start enjoying the game again, no matter what happens to Drizzle which way or the other.

    Let me be clear that I am not advocating for or against the banning of Drizzle. I personally do not know how I feel about the issue. Heck, I didn't even vote in the poll. What I do feel, however, is that Drizzle, being so contentious an issue, at least deserves a retest.

    tl;dr - There is no harm in at least retesting Drizzle.
  17. Huntofthelion

    Huntofthelion Live for the nights you can't remember
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    I just want to post my thoughts on Drizzle and everything else, so I'm not going to bother quoting and calling anyone out but there are a ton of posts in this thread (most of them) that I disagree with at least partially. First I don't really have a stance on banning Drizzle or not, I think it's definitely suspect but beyond that I am still undecided.

    Weatherless teams right now are just not as good as weather teams. They might be viable and I have seen / used effective ones but I have yet to come across a weatherless team that was not at least a little worse than the best built weather teams. This doesn't mean weatherless is terrible or non-existent, it's just an observation from watching SPL matches, laddering, and having conversations with top players and other tiering contributors. The advantages given to weather teams (water-type boost and hurricane/thunder for rain, fire boost and chlorophyll for sun, sand rush / sand force and passive damage from sand) are just not easily replicated on weatherless teams. Sure you can do things to be anti weather, but it's really hard to be anti-weather, anti-hazard, anti-drag spam, and still have a team that has it's own goals in mind. I don't think this should have any impact on whether or not Drizzle is banned, for the same reason I don't think things should be banned to make any style of team more viable.

    As far as what we have to lose by testing Drizzle, given how controversial Drizzle has been a lot of people have pre-conceived notions about whether or not they want to ban Drizzle. If I remember correctly the tiering council is in place to prevent a bandwagon effect but users that might not really be voting with the best interest of the future of the tier. If the council is hesitant to allow a suspect test that's probably what they're concerned about, or it could just be that they don't feel it's worthy of a test. I don't know the inner workings of it and unless they decide to tell us why they don't want to test Drizzle next/ever it's pretty useless to speculate about it. I know everyone wants to think this is a democracy but it really isn't. I think they try to listen to the general populations thoughts (which is why this thread still exists :/) but in the end they make the call on what they think is best.

    One last point I'd like to make is that kd24's post about how weather isn't just strong (he says broken iirc but I'm not gonna go that far because as I said I'm undecided) because of the abusers is something I 100% agree with. It's strong because of the little things like more powerful scalds, letting things like Garchomp run Aqua Tail for coverage, and making Ferrothorn and Jirachi really annoying to kill. I think sometimes this is overlooked and it really shouldn't be.
  18. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    alexwolf i think you're missing eggbert's point, when i read his post i see him arguing the metagame has become too centralized over certain pokes and covering those pokes with your team, and weather is a contributing factor to this centralization. you state that if people don't like weather teams then they should just not run weather themselves, but the entire reason that so many people nowadays are running weather teams, regardless of their personal opinions on them, is because weather teams (especially rain) are the best teams in the current metagame. abusing permanent 1.5x boost to water attacks, rain dish, negating fire weakness, etc., or raising rock-type 'mons sdef 1.5x, sand rush, sand force, etc., is just flat out better than running a weatherless team. i'm not saying weatherless teams can't succeed - on the contrary, i've made several myself that kick ass in this meta - but a) those teams generally use some method of countering weather because it's such a huge threat (read: kingdra), and b) weather teams are still easier to build and use than weatherless teams, not to mention that if you have weather and your opponent doesn't, you have an inherent advantage from turn 1, which essentially forces the opponent to use weather as well or accept the permanent disadvantage that comes from lack of weather on a team when the opponent has it. the advent of bw2 weather teams has essentially eliminated the playstyle of weatherless stall, and it's also greatly reduced the viability of weatherless balance, weatherless non-deo-d offense, sun stall, and hail anything. the playstyles left are essentially: rain offense, rain balance, sand offense, sand balance, sand stall, sun offense, and deo-d offense. wow. out of those 7 choices, only 1 of them allows me to not use weather and still start the battle on the same playing field as my opponent, and even within those 7 categories the nature of bw2 is such that certain playstyles match up better against others and that causes inherent advantages/disadvantages at the beginning of the battle as well.

    tl;dr weather fcks up everything
  19. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    We shouldn't need a poll.
    If you believe that Drizzle is broken, of course you're going to vote that it should be suspected. If you don't believe that Drizzle is broken, you should want it suspected so that you can prove that it isn't broken, and people will (should) stop complaining because we, as a community, will come to a final decision.
    We can talk all we want, but until something actually happens this will all be for nothing. Lets get on with it.
  20. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    i don't think "we as a community" will come to a final decision, it's more like the ou council (made up of five elite and enlightened college students) will decide to suspect rain or to not suspect rain, and if they decide the former then a select group of people who have supposedly proven themselves good enough at pokemon to be allowed to influence the tiering process will cast votes on whether or not drizzle ought to be banned from ou. that's how "we as a community" actually decide tiering stuff, like it or not...

    talking is nice though let's keep doing that
  21. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan shake it off!

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    Just looking at the argument, this was a pretty bad analogy. First of all, 252 SpA Choice Specs Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 236-278 (36.19 - 42.63%) -- 96.85% chance to 3HKO. Just looking at accuracy, there is a 34.3% chance of hitting with Focus Blast three times in a row. Secondly, who runs Choice Specs on Alakazam anyway? Most common is Focus Sash (42.376%), and then Life Orb (35.038%), and down the list, you find Choice Specs at a whopping 4.624%. Anyway, 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 205-242 (31.44 - 37.11%) -- guaranteed 4HKO. Hooray.

    Anyway, I agree with Hugin in that Rain-boosted STAB, Hydro Pumps, possibly even with Calm Mind boosts or boosting items do centralize the metagame to a certain degree. I also like the idea of suspecting Drizzle/Drought, as there really is nothing to lose. Around ~45% of the voters in this unofficial poll are against weather (or at least Drizzle) and I believe that this speaks volumes about the metagame. Again, at worst, we establish that Rain is beneficial to the metagame, adds diversity, etc. and get this off our plate to perhaps have grounds for the viability of rain in Gen VI, and at best we get rid of a factor that hinders the fun/creativity of the game. It's a win-win scenario I think.
  22. yee

    yee
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    I'd like us to start classifying Deoxys-D as a weather officially. The term "non Deo-D weatherless" has to be used often enough IMO and we should just acknowledge that Deo-D is similar enough to weather.

    Edit- Lavos that's called dual weather!

    I'd also like to add on that Politoed and Ninetails are just puppets to use an ability. In a similar but less drastic way, Gengar is a Deo-D puppet in the current metagame.

    Edit2- A competent battler could probably reach 1900 with 4-5 pokemon.
  23. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    i like this idea but i can't really support it with the way you phrase it because deo-d itself is not weather. i see deo-d paired with choiced ttar often enough that deo-d sand offense would definitely classify as a playstyle, but saying that it is weather is a step too far. however, comparing deo-d offense as equivalent to weather in terms of strength and general metagame viability definitely works for me, that's why i grouped it together with the other six viable playstyles of bw2.

    any thoughts?
  24. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

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    Never used Deoxys-D on a weatherless hyper offense team. Had great success (1900+ on such teams)

    Checking in.

    OT: There's not much more to be said, we have the opinions of one of the official tiering elite (I'm guessing Huntofthelion is part of the group) but we need some input from the others as the Smogon community is just going back and forth on the same arguments.

    I'm a little worried that the people posting the comments against drizzle are simply a vocal minority, as according to the poll, most people want to leave the meta as is. I'd argue that the poll could be re-worded to more accurately prod battlers about their opinion on the metagame and what we could do with it.
  25. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    whether we're a minority or not in terms of this particular poll is irrelevant, because literally anyone, even a user with 0 posts and 0 bw2 experience, could vote in this poll, unlike the suspect voting process, in which only qualified users, deemed inherently knowledgeable and skilled, are allowed to cast a vote. in the words of john adams, "unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of the population is incapable of doing what is best for the union" (read: the ou metagame). the current suspect system filters out the majority of uninformed users automatically.

    to be clear, i'm not calling anyone in particular inept, i'm saying most of the people who voted in this poll are probably inept.
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